Possum where did you get that article as I would like to have a gander to get a better idea about buying new for myself.

It's okay I found it, I won't post a link as it is covered by copyright.

If that's your copyright then all good but if it is not, to protect yourself maybe a link is legal?

Possum3 wrote:

---

Came up as a Facebook post on Memory - Don't know original source, I only did some grammatical corrections on original. It may originally have come from Colin Young at Caravan Council.

---

 Good post Possum,but as always there are problems that are not explained or revealed.Later today,if I can find time,I will elaborate.Assuming the generally accepted 10% towball weight,the popular twin-cab utes can NEVER safely tow 3500kg caravans as PIG trailers.Several times I gave explained how these little cars are able to be given big tow ratings that cannot be reached unless the trailer (van) is a DOG trailer.The smaller American utes cannot EVER safely tow their claimed 4500kg,with around 3000kg being the limit.Later.Cheers

P.S For those who are not familiar with the term "Dog trailer",this is an example of how even a decrepit old Landrover can tow a heavy load.

Possum3 wrote:

---

Many caravanners have purchased a dual cab ute to tow a caravan.

While brands and models vary, most are similar in load and towing capacity. The introduction of the American utes has however, opened up the field slightly in recent years but are not immune to the sales hype.

 

The BIG American utes are indeed formidable weapons,which I considered and rejected,but the smaller models,such as the RAM 1500 and Silverado 1500 are marketed as being able to tow 4500kg. Because of their lighweight rear axles,there is not a snowflakes chance in hell of these cars being able to SAFELY tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Many people do not understand how tow ratings are arrived at,but, when challenged,the "out" for the manufacturer is that their cars can indeed tow 4500kg,but ONLY as a DOG trailer.

 

The typical Japanese dual cab ute on the roads towing a caravan will typically have a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) of approx. 3,200 kgs and a GCM (Gross Combined Mass) of 6,000kgs.

So, what does that mean?

It simply means that; you cannot legally load your ute to an extent where the ute itself, and the load it is carrying can exceed 3,200kgs as defined by the manufacturers GVM. (Includes driver and passengers)

Your vehicle will be overloaded and unroadworthy if you do.

 

With their lightweight rear axles,which generally range from 1600kg to 1870kg,these vehicles have no chance of ever SAFELY reaching their GCM of 6000kg.The latest BT50 has a bit more of a chance of reaching its 5950kg GCM because it now has a rear axle capacity of 1910kg. However,NONE of the popular twin-cab utes can EVER SAFELY tow much more than about 3100kg ATM while SAFETY is of any concern,as always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van.(GTM).

 

It also means that you cannot tow any trailer or caravan so that the combined weight of the loaded ute, driver, passengers, and towed trailer / caravan combined weigh is more than 6,000kg, the GCM weight defined by the manufacturer.

The kerb weight is typically 2,200kgs. (approx.) This gives a total load capacity of approx. 1,000kgs. (3,200 minus 2,200 equals 1,000) More than adequate for most jobs except towing.

 

At last a bit of truth in the last two words above,although it still is almost impossible to reach GVM because of rear overhang,with most of the tray being behind the car's rear axle.

NOW WE GET INTO THE MARKETING HYPE THAT THE SALESPEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TELL YOU.

These utes are marketed as being able to tow a caravan up to 3,500kg, and yes, they can - officially. The caravans of this weight should also typically have approx 350kgs of weight on the tow ball to help ensure good and safe towing practice.

If the Gross Combined Weight (GCM) is 6,000 kgs and you are towing a caravan weighing 3,500kgs then that only leaves 2500kg for the total weight of the ute, driver, passengers, accessories, and its load. (6,000 GCM minus 3,500 van weight equals 2,500 left over in the GCM)

 

And because the towball weight of 350kg transfers around 160-170kg from the car's front axle to its rear axle,there is little chance of ever reaching the claimed GVM,let alone GCM.Important to note that the cure-it-all WDH will NOT help because its use will put the caravan over its 3500kg ATM rating. Members who don't understand this are welcome to PM me for assistance,and I will be happy to help them,as I have helped many members in the past.

 

Adjust the figures for the weight of your caravan.

THEREFORE: - while towing a large caravan you can only load your ute so that the total weight of the fully loaded ute and passengers does not exceed the remaining GVM, in this case 2,500kgs.

The legally allowed weight of the ute has now dropped from 3,200kgs to 2,500 kgs a reduction of 700 kgs less load allowed in the ute. (adjust the figures for your own caravan weight etc.)

As the ute weight will remain the same then the reduction in allowed ute weight MUST come off the load you put in it. In this case the 1,000kg load capacity has shrunk to just 300kg. (1,000 less 700 loss of GCM allowance equals 300)

IN SUMMARY a 2,200 kg (kerb weight) ute will have only 300kgs left for people, all accessories, added extras (2,200 plus 300 equals 2,500) and load to tow a 3,500kg caravan and leave NO allowance for safety to stay under the 6,000kg manufacturers legally binding GCM. (2,500 plus 3,500 equals 6,000)

Towing a 2,800kg caravan will leave 3,200 kgs left or, the original GVM allowed for the ute, but with no safety margin. The heavier the van, the less in the ute and vice versa.

REMEMBER: - the 'load' weight includes all driver and passengers, the bull bar, roof racks, and do not forget the f/glass canopy, drawers, and any other accessories. Your fridge, booze, tools, and recovery gear are also load.

These utes have a large tray, and it is extremely easy to see the big space and fill it with stuff and easily overload your vehicle.

Overloaded vehicles are unsafe, unroadworthy and your insurance probably excludes cover for unroadworthy and overloaded vehicles.

The dual cab utes can be a great vehicle, however, like any vehicle they all have limitations on load carrying capacity. In this case it can be deceptive if you do not do your homework.

Please do your sums and get you rig weighed to help ensure that your insurance will pay out in the event of an accident.

 

 

(1) Truck Friendly - caravan road safety program Posts | Facebook

 

IN SUMMARY:- The chances of ANY of the more popular twin-cab utes being able to SAFELY tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer (caravan) are ZIP,ZERO,ZILCH,NIL,NADA. Cant be done.

---

 Practical Motoring.com.au posted this article a couple of years ago.Might help some to understand if they care to look at it?

yobarr wrote:

---

Possum3 wrote:

---

Many caravanners have purchased a dual cab ute to tow a caravan.

While brands and models vary, most are similar in load and towing capacity. The introduction of the American utes has however, opened up the field slightly in recent years but are not immune to the sales hype.

 

The BIG American utes are indeed formidable weapons,which I considered and rejected,but the smaller models,such as the RAM 1500 and Silverado 1500 are marketed as being able to tow 4500kg. Because of their lighweight rear axles,there is not a snowflakes chance in hell of these cars being able to SAFELY tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Many people do not understand how tow ratings are arrived at,but, when challenged,the "out" for the manufacturer is that their cars can indeed tow 4500kg,but ONLY as a DOG trailer.

 

The typical Japanese dual cab ute on the roads towing a caravan will typically have a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) of approx. 3,200 kgs and a GCM (Gross Combined Mass) of 6,000kgs.

So, what does that mean?

It simply means that; you cannot legally load your ute to an extent where the ute itself, and the load it is carrying can exceed 3,200kgs as defined by the manufacturers GVM. (Includes driver and passengers)

Your vehicle will be overloaded and unroadworthy if you do.

 

With their lightweight rear axles,which generally range from 1600kg to 1870kg,these vehicles have no chance of ever SAFELY reaching their GCM of 6000kg.The latest BT50 has a bit more of a chance of reaching its 5950kg GCM because it now has a rear axle capacity of 1910kg. However,NONE of the popular twin-cab utes can EVER SAFELY tow much more than about 3100kg ATM while SAFETY is of any concern,as always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van.(GTM).

 

It also means that you cannot tow any trailer or caravan so that the combined weight of the loaded ute, driver, passengers, and towed trailer / caravan combined weigh is more than 6,000kg, the GCM weight defined by the manufacturer.

The kerb weight is typically 2,200kgs. (approx.) This gives a total load capacity of approx. 1,000kgs. (3,200 minus 2,200 equals 1,000) More than adequate for most jobs except towing.

 

At last a bit of truth in the last two words above,although it still is almost impossible to reach GVM because of rear overhang,with most of the tray being behind the car's rear axle.

NOW WE GET INTO THE MARKETING HYPE THAT THE SALESPEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TELL YOU.

These utes are marketed as being able to tow a caravan up to 3,500kg, and yes, they can - officially. The caravans of this weight should also typically have approx 350kgs of weight on the tow ball to help ensure good and safe towing practice.

If the Gross Combined Weight (GCM) is 6,000 kgs and you are towing a caravan weighing 3,500kgs then that only leaves 2500kg for the total weight of the ute, driver, passengers, accessories, and its load. (6,000 GCM minus 3,500 van weight equals 2,500 left over in the GCM)

 

And because the towball weight of 350kg transfers around 160-170kg from the car's front axle to its rear axle,there is little chance of ever reaching the claimed GVM,let alone GCM.Important to note that the cure-it-all WDH will NOT help because its use will put the caravan over its 3500kg ATM rating. Members who don't understand this are welcome to PM me for assistance,and I will be happy to help them,as I have helped many members in the past.

 

Adjust the figures for the weight of your caravan.

THEREFORE: - while towing a large caravan you can only load your ute so that the total weight of the fully loaded ute and passengers does not exceed the remaining GVM, in this case 2,500kgs.

The legally allowed weight of the ute has now dropped from 3,200kgs to 2,500 kgs a reduction of 700 kgs less load allowed in the ute. (adjust the figures for your own caravan weight etc.)

As the ute weight will remain the same then the reduction in allowed ute weight MUST come off the load you put in it. In this case the 1,000kg load capacity has shrunk to just 300kg. (1,000 less 700 loss of GCM allowance equals 300)

IN SUMMARY a 2,200 kg (kerb weight) ute will have only 300kgs left for people, all accessories, added extras (2,200 plus 300 equals 2,500) and load to tow a 3,500kg caravan and leave NO allowance for safety to stay under the 6,000kg manufacturers legally binding GCM. (2,500 plus 3,500 equals 6,000)

Towing a 2,800kg caravan will leave 3,200 kgs left or, the original GVM allowed for the ute, but with no safety margin. The heavier the van, the less in the ute and vice versa.

REMEMBER: - the 'load' weight includes all driver and passengers, the bull bar, roof racks, and do not forget the f/glass canopy, drawers, and any other accessories. Your fridge, booze, tools, and recovery gear are also load.

These utes have a large tray, and it is extremely easy to see the big space and fill it with stuff and easily overload your vehicle.

Overloaded vehicles are unsafe, unroadworthy and your insurance probably excludes cover for unroadworthy and overloaded vehicles.

The dual cab utes can be a great vehicle, however, like any vehicle they all have limitations on load carrying capacity. In this case it can be deceptive if you do not do your homework.

Please do your sums and get you rig weighed to help ensure that your insurance will pay out in the event of an accident.

 

 

(1) Truck Friendly - caravan road safety program Posts | Facebook

 

IN SUMMARY:- The chances of ANY of the more popular twin-cab utes being able to SAFELY tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer (caravan) are ZIP,ZERO,ZILCH,NIL,NADA. Cant be done.

 

 

---

 This is all true,  but we should not lose sight of the fact that many people only want/require to tow a van weighing  in the 2000kg to  2500kg range  and  there is still a choice of tow vehicles available that are capable of doing this, so it is not  doom and gloom for all prospective caravanners. 

It is  a matter of "fitting your lifestyle" to the Rig  rather than trying to set up a Rig to match your "expected lifestyle" and possibly find that it is not legal after you have made the investment .......just do the "homework" first and be diligent about it.   KB

-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 9th of February 2022 03:22:39 PM

---

KJB wrote:

---

yobarr wrote:

---

Possum3 wrote:

---

Many caravanners have purchased a dual cab ute to tow a caravan.

While brands and models vary, most are similar in load and towing capacity. The introduction of the American utes has however, opened up the field slightly in recent years but are not immune to the sales hype.

 

The BIG American utes are indeed formidable weapons,which I considered and rejected,but the smaller models,such as the RAM 1500 and Silverado 1500 are marketed as being able to tow 4500kg. Because of their lighweight rear axles,there is not a snowflakes chance in hell of these cars being able to SAFELY tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Many people do not understand how tow ratings are arrived at,but, when challenged,the "out" for the manufacturer is that their cars can indeed tow 4500kg,but ONLY as a DOG trailer.

 

The typical Japanese dual cab ute on the roads towing a caravan will typically have a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) of approx. 3,200 kgs and a GCM (Gross Combined Mass) of 6,000kgs.

So, what does that mean?

It simply means that; you cannot legally load your ute to an extent where the ute itself, and the load it is carrying can exceed 3,200kgs as defined by the manufacturers GVM. (Includes driver and passengers)

Your vehicle will be overloaded and unroadworthy if you do.

 

With their lightweight rear axles,which generally range from 1600kg to 1870kg,these vehicles have no chance of ever SAFELY reaching their GCM of 6000kg.The latest BT50 has a bit more of a chance of reaching its 5950kg GCM because it now has a rear axle capacity of 1910kg. However,NONE of the popular twin-cab utes can EVER SAFELY tow much more than about 3100kg ATM while SAFETY is of any concern,as always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van.(GTM).

 

It also means that you cannot tow any trailer or caravan so that the combined weight of the loaded ute, driver, passengers, and towed trailer / caravan combined weigh is more than 6,000kg, the GCM weight defined by the manufacturer.

The kerb weight is typically 2,200kgs. (approx.) This gives a total load capacity of approx. 1,000kgs. (3,200 minus 2,200 equals 1,000) More than adequate for most jobs except towing.

 

At last a bit of truth in the last two words above,although it still is almost impossible to reach GVM because of rear overhang,with most of the tray being behind the car's rear axle.

NOW WE GET INTO THE MARKETING HYPE THAT THE SALESPEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TELL YOU.

These utes are marketed as being able to tow a caravan up to 3,500kg, and yes, they can - officially. The caravans of this weight should also typically have approx 350kgs of weight on the tow ball to help ensure good and safe towing practice.

If the Gross Combined Weight (GCM) is 6,000 kgs and you are towing a caravan weighing 3,500kgs then that only leaves 2500kg for the total weight of the ute, driver, passengers, accessories, and its load. (6,000 GCM minus 3,500 van weight equals 2,500 left over in the GCM)

 

And because the towball weight of 350kg transfers around 160-170kg from the car's front axle to its rear axle,there is little chance of ever reaching the claimed GVM,let alone GCM.Important to note that the cure-it-all WDH will NOT help because its use will put the caravan over its 3500kg ATM rating. Members who don't understand this are welcome to PM me for assistance,and I will be happy to help them,as I have helped many members in the past.

 

Adjust the figures for the weight of your caravan.

THEREFORE: - while towing a large caravan you can only load your ute so that the total weight of the fully loaded ute and passengers does not exceed the remaining GVM, in this case 2,500kgs.

The legally allowed weight of the ute has now dropped from 3,200kgs to 2,500 kgs a reduction of 700 kgs less load allowed in the ute. (adjust the figures for your own caravan weight etc.)

As the ute weight will remain the same then the reduction in allowed ute weight MUST come off the load you put in it. In this case the 1,000kg load capacity has shrunk to just 300kg. (1,000 less 700 loss of GCM allowance equals 300)

IN SUMMARY a 2,200 kg (kerb weight) ute will have only 300kgs left for people, all accessories, added extras (2,200 plus 300 equals 2,500) and load to tow a 3,500kg caravan and leave NO allowance for safety to stay under the 6,000kg manufacturers legally binding GCM. (2,500 plus 3,500 equals 6,000)

Towing a 2,800kg caravan will leave 3,200 kgs left or, the original GVM allowed for the ute, but with no safety margin. The heavier the van, the less in the ute and vice versa.

REMEMBER: - the 'load' weight includes all driver and passengers, the bull bar, roof racks, and do not forget the f/glass canopy, drawers, and any other accessories. Your fridge, booze, tools, and recovery gear are also load.

These utes have a large tray, and it is extremely easy to see the big space and fill it with stuff and easily overload your vehicle.

Overloaded vehicles are unsafe, unroadworthy and your insurance probably excludes cover for unroadworthy and overloaded vehicles.

The dual cab utes can be a great vehicle, however, like any vehicle they all have limitations on load carrying capacity. In this case it can be deceptive if you do not do your homework.

Please do your sums and get you rig weighed to help ensure that your insurance will pay out in the event of an accident.

 

 

(1) Truck Friendly - caravan road safety program Posts | Facebook

 

IN SUMMARY:- The chances of ANY of the more popular twin-cab utes being able to SAFELY tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer (caravan) are ZIP,ZERO,ZILCH,NIL,NADA. Cant be done.

 

 

---

 This is all true,  but we should not lose sight of the fact that many people only want/require to tow a van weighing  in the 2000kg to  2500kg range  and  there is still a choice of tow vehicles available that are capable of doing this, so it is not  doom and gloom for all prospective caravanners. 

It is  a matter of "fitting your lifestyle" to the Rig  rather than trying to set up a Rig to match your "expected lifestyle" and possibly find that it is not legal after you have made the investment .......just do the "homework" first and be diligent about it.   KB

---

 What you write,Ray,is of course correct but the reason for my post was to attempt to make others aware of the dangers of believing the hype surrounding claimed towing ability.Many are the heated "discussions" that I have had,in my travels,with caravanners towing 3500kg vans with twin-cab utes or LC200s.They all were adamant that their tow setups were indeed legal and safe.Not only are they not legal and certainly not safe,they most certainly are uninsured in the event that simple physics results in them going R Sup.A more recent case was a fellow traveller towing a 3500kg van with a late model Isuzu MUX.He insisted he was both legal and safe,and was most indignant when I suggested that he was living in La La Land. MUX towing 3500kg as a PIG trailer? Not a chance.Cheers

yobarr wrote:

---

KJB wrote:

---

yobarr wrote:

---

Possum3 wrote:

---

Many caravanners have purchased a dual cab ute to tow a caravan.

While brands and models vary, most are similar in load and towing capacity. The introduction of the American utes has however, opened up the field slightly in recent years but are not immune to the sales hype.

 

The BIG American utes are indeed formidable weapons,which I considered and rejected,but the smaller models,such as the RAM 1500 and Silverado 1500 are marketed as being able to tow 4500kg. Because of their lighweight rear axles,there is not a snowflakes chance in hell of these cars being able to SAFELY tow much more than about 3000kg as a PIG trailer. Many people do not understand how tow ratings are arrived at,but, when challenged,the "out" for the manufacturer is that their cars can indeed tow 4500kg,but ONLY as a DOG trailer.

 

The typical Japanese dual cab ute on the roads towing a caravan will typically have a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) of approx. 3,200 kgs and a GCM (Gross Combined Mass) of 6,000kgs.

So, what does that mean?

It simply means that; you cannot legally load your ute to an extent where the ute itself, and the load it is carrying can exceed 3,200kgs as defined by the manufacturers GVM. (Includes driver and passengers)

Your vehicle will be overloaded and unroadworthy if you do.

 

With their lightweight rear axles,which generally range from 1600kg to 1870kg,these vehicles have no chance of ever SAFELY reaching their GCM of 6000kg.The latest BT50 has a bit more of a chance of reaching its 5950kg GCM because it now has a rear axle capacity of 1910kg. However,NONE of the popular twin-cab utes can EVER SAFELY tow much more than about 3100kg ATM while SAFETY is of any concern,as always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van.(GTM).

 

It also means that you cannot tow any trailer or caravan so that the combined weight of the loaded ute, driver, passengers, and towed trailer / caravan combined weigh is more than 6,000kg, the GCM weight defined by the manufacturer.

The kerb weight is typically 2,200kgs. (approx.) This gives a total load capacity of approx. 1,000kgs. (3,200 minus 2,200 equals 1,000) More than adequate for most jobs except towing.

 

At last a bit of truth in the last two words above,although it still is almost impossible to reach GVM because of rear overhang,with most of the tray being behind the car's rear axle.

NOW WE GET INTO THE MARKETING HYPE THAT THE SALESPEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TELL YOU.

These utes are marketed as being able to tow a caravan up to 3,500kg, and yes, they can - officially. The caravans of this weight should also typically have approx 350kgs of weight on the tow ball to help ensure good and safe towing practice.

If the Gross Combined Weight (GCM) is 6,000 kgs and you are towing a caravan weighing 3,500kgs then that only leaves 2500kg for the total weight of the ute, driver, passengers, accessories, and its load. (6,000 GCM minus 3,500 van weight equals 2,500 left over in the GCM)

 

And because the towball weight of 350kg transfers around 160-170kg from the car's front axle to its rear axle,there is little chance of ever reaching the claimed GVM,let alone GCM.Important to note that the cure-it-all WDH will NOT help because its use will put the caravan over its 3500kg ATM rating. Members who don't understand this are welcome to PM me for assistance,and I will be happy to help them,as I have helped many members in the past.

 

Adjust the figures for the weight of your caravan.

THEREFORE: - while towing a large caravan you can only load your ute so that the total weight of the fully loaded ute and passengers does not exceed the remaining GVM, in this case 2,500kgs.

The legally allowed weight of the ute has now dropped from 3,200kgs to 2,500 kgs a reduction of 700 kgs less load allowed in the ute. (adjust the figures for your own caravan weight etc.)

As the ute weight will remain the same then the reduction in allowed ute weight MUST come off the load you put in it. In this case the 1,000kg load capacity has shrunk to just 300kg. (1,000 less 700 loss of GCM allowance equals 300)

IN SUMMARY a 2,200 kg (kerb weight) ute will have only 300kgs left for people, all accessories, added extras (2,200 plus 300 equals 2,500) and load to tow a 3,500kg caravan and leave NO allowance for safety to stay under the 6,000kg manufacturers legally binding GCM. (2,500 plus 3,500 equals 6,000)

Towing a 2,800kg caravan will leave 3,200 kgs left or, the original GVM allowed for the ute, but with no safety margin. The heavier the van, the less in the ute and vice versa.

REMEMBER: - the 'load' weight includes all driver and passengers, the bull bar, roof racks, and do not forget the f/glass canopy, drawers, and any other accessories. Your fridge, booze, tools, and recovery gear are also load.

These utes have a large tray, and it is extremely easy to see the big space and fill it with stuff and easily overload your vehicle.

Overloaded vehicles are unsafe, unroadworthy and your insurance probably excludes cover for unroadworthy and overloaded vehicles.

The dual cab utes can be a great vehicle, however, like any vehicle they all have limitations on load carrying capacity. In this case it can be deceptive if you do not do your homework.

Please do your sums and get you rig weighed to help ensure that your insurance will pay out in the event of an accident.

 

 

(1) Truck Friendly - caravan road safety program Posts | Facebook

 

IN SUMMARY:- The chances of ANY of the more popular twin-cab utes being able to SAFELY tow 3500kg as a PIG trailer (caravan) are ZIP,ZERO,ZILCH,NIL,NADA. Cant be done.

 

 

---

 This is all true,  but we should not lose sight of the fact that many people only want/require to tow a van weighing  in the 2000kg to  2500kg range  and  there is still a choice of tow vehicles available that are capable of doing this, so it is not  doom and gloom for all prospective caravanners. 

It is  a matter of "fitting your lifestyle" to the Rig  rather than trying to set up a Rig to match your "expected lifestyle" and possibly find that it is not legal after you have made the investment .......just do the "homework" first and be diligent about it.   KB

---

 What you write,Ray,is of course correct but the reason for my post was to attempt to make others aware of the dangers of believing the hype surrounding claimed towing ability.Many are the heated "discussions" that I have had,in my travels,with caravanners towing 3500kg vans with twin-cab utes or LC200s.They all were adamant that their tow setups were indeed legal and safe.Not only are they not legal and certainly not safe,they most certainly are uninsured in the event that simple physics results in them going R Sup.A more recent case was a fellow traveller towing a 3500kg van with a late model Isuzu MUX.He insisted he was both legal and safe,and was most indignant when I suggested that he was living in La La Land. MUX towing 3500kg as a PIG trailer? Not a chance.Cheers

 

---

 Yep, I agree....... KB