The DunningKruger effect is a cognitive bias[1][2] whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate their own ability and people with high ability at a task underestimate their own ability.
As described by social psychologistsDavid Dunning and Justin Kruger, the bias results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".[3] It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from people's inability to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their level of competence.
Possum3 said
08:32 AM Dec 24, 2021
This phenomena was widely accepted as normal up until the third quarter of the 20th Century - When the enlightened ones were adamant about removing tests and assessments from curriculum - When the Woke decided it was demeaning to only reward all the high ability achievers with certificates and awards - the moronic were awarded the same as the capable.
This is evidenced on this and other fora - particularly in recent times - by the attitudes and criticisms by the few with their argumentative posts.
dorian said
10:41 AM Dec 24, 2021
Possum3 wrote:
This phenomena was widely accepted as normal up until the third quarter of the 20th Century - When the enlightened ones were adamant about removing tests and assessments from curriculum - When the Woke decided it was demeaning to only reward all the high ability achievers with certificates and awards - the moronic were awarded the same as the capable.
School taught me that phenomena is the plural form of phenomenon. Perhaps you were one of the Woke set?
phe·nom·e·non
(f-nm-nn, -nn)
n.pl.phe·nom·e·na (-n)
1. An occurrence, circumstance, or fact that is perceptible by the senses.
Possum3 said
12:01 PM Dec 24, 2021
Unfortunately Dorian I was referring to a singular fact - not a multiplicity of facts - You are becoming a pain in the arse when criticising outside your area of expertise.
Please refer; Woke (/wok/ WOHK) is an adjective meaning 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination' that originated in African-American Vernacular English (AAVE). Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice.
Who is the Woke one here? No-one would ever call me left-wing with ideas involving identity politics and social justice.
Mike Harding said
12:31 PM Dec 24, 2021
I tend to agree with Possum.
Children/people *do* have different levels of intelligence and functional ability and we should steam children in order to assist them to achieve their best. eg no point in putting a slow child into advanced maths, he'll fail and feel a failure.
I always told my two sons when one was complaining "But you let him do that!" - "You are different people and you will be treated differently."
No matter what educators do, life will set tests which select who is better suited to what.
dorian said
02:20 PM Dec 24, 2021
Possum3 wrote:
Unfortunately Dorian I was referring to a singular fact - not a multiplicity of facts - You are becoming a pain in the arse when criticising outside your area of expertise.
Possum, what don't you understand? Yes, you were referring to a singular "fact", but you were using the plural form of the noun to do so. When you criticise people in this forum for their lack of literacy, you should be very careful not to expose your own.
Let me explain it more simply:
phenomenon - singular
phenomena - plural
Mike Harding said
02:39 PM Dec 24, 2021
Once we descend to criticizing minor errors or grammar or the like we are doomed and all useful interchange will cease - stop it!
Craig1 said
02:40 PM Dec 24, 2021
Mike, are we steaming them like a plum pudding, or just like broccoli and almost raw?
Magnarc said
02:55 PM Dec 24, 2021
To criticise errors in grammar is a useless exercise. Grammar does not have to be correct as long as you understand what the person is referring to. We are a complex mob and not all are au fait with the vagaries of the english language. It pays to remember not all of us received the same standard of education through no fault of their own. Live and let live guys, all you have to do is be a little more tolerant towards others. (unforunately I fear that tolerance today has largely gone the way of common sense)
dorian said
03:42 PM Dec 24, 2021
My first year in high school was the year in which the formal teaching of grammatical rules was ditched from the English syllabus. Instead we were expected to learn by reading. Was this a good or bad idea? I'm not sure, but it was the beginning of radical change, at least as I saw it. Personally, I would like to see more focus on contemporary authors and a lot less on Shakespeare, but that's probably a contentious issue.
Is the level of literacy falling? I think so, although these days illiteracy seems to be regarded as "kewl". You even see the occasional GN resorting to SMS-ese, just like the silly affectations of pretentious teenagers. I expect they do it to disguise their illiteracy, like a balding man shaving his head to disguise his hair loss.
In any case I agree that we should have universal external tests spanning all schools in all states. That's the only realistic way to assess relative academic performance. However, I don't recall any thread where a GN, woke or otherwise, has expressed support for the abolition of such tests.
As for why people think the way that they do, I expect that marketers are the only ones who really know.
yobarr said
05:06 PM Dec 24, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
Once we descend to criticizing minor errors or grammar or the like we are doomed and all useful interchange will cease - stop it!
Yay,I agree Mike.Y on erf shood us fellas awl tork an right propley English? Hell,it doesn't matter whether our message is not effectively transmitted, as long as we know what we meant.Behave. And when does your "minor" error become a "major" error.The English language can perhaps be compared with towing weights.You're either right,or you're wrong. There is no middle ground.Cheers
Possum3 said
06:42 PM Dec 24, 2021
Dorian, I got it, but you are still a pain in the arse for the criticism.
Did you realise your mistake in reference to "Woke"? Or you only interested in other people's mistakes?
dorian said
03:10 AM Dec 25, 2021
Possum3 wrote:
Dorian, I got it, but you are still a pain in the arse for the criticism.
Did you realise your mistake in reference to "Woke"? Or you only interested in other people's mistakes?
When I suggested that you may have been part of the "woke set", I meant that you may have been among that group of students who were affected by those "woke" policies that you complained about. I agree that my statement was ambiguous.
I'm not familiar with the changes that were made in later years, but here is a timeline for NSW:
In 2012 "the Record of School Achievement (RoSA) replaced the School Certificate. The RoSA is awarded to students who leave school after Year 10 and before completing the HSC. It is a cumulative credential -- it records academic achievement up until the date a student leaves school and is based on moderated, school-based assessments".
There is no reference to "removing tests and assessments from [the] curriculum", nor does it suggest that "the moronic were awarded the same as the capable". Could it be that I'm not one of "the enlightened ones" who is able to read between the lines?
It seems to me that the motivation for the changes may have been to remove the burden of a single end-of-year test and to give adequate weighting to the efforts made by the student during the preceding years. A student may have been exemplary all year round, only to stumble at the final hurdle.
In fact my own sister was unhappy with her performance in the HSC, but she went on to study for her PhD in science (she died while writing her thesis).
-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 25th of December 2021 03:26:00 AM
My wife and I ofter ask each other "why would somebody vote that way? " or "why would somebody believe these things?" whilst watching the news.
Now I know why after reading this article:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-23/is-dumbness-our-destiny/100679506
We need to slow down our thinking and ask the above questions before judging others.
I guess if it suits your views and agenda then someone is satisfied.
Others not so.
I was amused that the article begins by calling people who question climate change stupid yet later calls on us to be more sceptical.
Edit: Inserted missing word.
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Friday 24th of December 2021 02:35:05 PM
Here is a scientific explanation of the phenomenon, backed up by test results:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DunningKruger_effect
The DunningKruger effect is a cognitive bias[1][2] whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate their own ability and people with high ability at a task underestimate their own ability.
As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the bias results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".[3] It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from people's inability to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their level of competence.
This is evidenced on this and other fora - particularly in recent times - by the attitudes and criticisms by the few with their argumentative posts.
School taught me that phenomena is the plural form of phenomenon. Perhaps you were one of the Woke set?
phe·nom·e·non
(f-nm-nn, -nn)
Please refer; Woke (/wok/ WOHK) is an adjective meaning 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination' that originated in African-American Vernacular English (AAVE). Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice.
Who is the Woke one here? No-one would ever call me left-wing with ideas involving identity politics and social justice.
I tend to agree with Possum.
Children/people *do* have different levels of intelligence and functional ability and we should steam children in order to assist them to achieve their best. eg no point in putting a slow child into advanced maths, he'll fail and feel a failure.
I always told my two sons when one was complaining "But you let him do that!" - "You are different people and you will be treated differently."
No matter what educators do, life will set tests which select who is better suited to what.
Possum, what don't you understand? Yes, you were referring to a singular "fact", but you were using the plural form of the noun to do so. When you criticise people in this forum for their lack of literacy, you should be very careful not to expose your own.
Let me explain it more simply:
phenomenon - singular
phenomena - plural
Once we descend to criticizing minor errors or grammar or the like we are doomed and all useful interchange will cease - stop it!
To criticise errors in grammar is a useless exercise. Grammar does not have to be correct as long as you understand what the person is referring to. We are a complex mob and not all are au fait with the vagaries of the english language. It pays to remember not all of us received the same standard of education through no fault of their own. Live and let live guys, all you have to do is be a little more tolerant towards others. (unforunately I fear that tolerance today has largely gone the way of common sense)
Is the level of literacy falling? I think so, although these days illiteracy seems to be regarded as "kewl". You even see the occasional GN resorting to SMS-ese, just like the silly affectations of pretentious teenagers. I expect they do it to disguise their illiteracy, like a balding man shaving his head to disguise his hair loss.
In any case I agree that we should have universal external tests spanning all schools in all states. That's the only realistic way to assess relative academic performance. However, I don't recall any thread where a GN, woke or otherwise, has expressed support for the abolition of such tests.
As for why people think the way that they do, I expect that marketers are the only ones who really know.
Yay,I agree Mike.Y on erf shood us fellas awl tork an right propley English? Hell,it doesn't matter whether our message is not effectively transmitted, as long as we know what we meant.Behave. And when does your "minor" error become a "major" error.The English language can perhaps be compared with towing weights.You're either right,or you're wrong. There is no middle ground.Cheers
Did you realise your mistake in reference to "Woke"? Or you only interested in other people's mistakes?
When I suggested that you may have been part of the "woke set", I meant that you may have been among that group of students who were affected by those "woke" policies that you complained about. I agree that my statement was ambiguous.
I'm not familiar with the changes that were made in later years, but here is a timeline for NSW:
https://education.nsw.gov.au/about-us/our-people-and-structure/history-of-government-schools/facts-and-figures/examinations
In 2012 "the Record of School Achievement (RoSA) replaced the School Certificate. The RoSA is awarded to students who leave school after Year 10 and before completing the HSC. It is a cumulative credential -- it records academic achievement up until the date a student leaves school and is based on moderated, school-based assessments".
There is no reference to "removing tests and assessments from [the] curriculum", nor does it suggest that "the moronic were awarded the same as the capable". Could it be that I'm not one of "the enlightened ones" who is able to read between the lines?
It seems to me that the motivation for the changes may have been to remove the burden of a single end-of-year test and to give adequate weighting to the efforts made by the student during the preceding years. A student may have been exemplary all year round, only to stumble at the final hurdle.
In fact my own sister was unhappy with her performance in the HSC, but she went on to study for her PhD in science (she died while writing her thesis).
-- Edited by dorian on Saturday 25th of December 2021 03:26:00 AM