I find this rather frightening. Is it possible? If so, how do we protect ourselves?
I do know from personnel experience that this sort of thing could happen. Go into hospital after a fall, have a temporary back injury. Hospital wouldn't allow person to return to their home. Needs care. Quite rightly. Insisted on sending her to a nursing home. After being there for a few weeks was declared to have dementia. Frequent UTI and drug induced confusion caused by poor care practices at the nursing home. If someone has dimentia, how can she name each of her nine great grandchildren and their birthdays, her telephone number and address. Yes, she couldn't have a long conversation about world politics or solve a suduku puzzle. Don't know that she was ever able to do this. Just no interest in those things. Interest was home and family. She was quite capable of making a cup of tea safely and teach me how to cook a couple of her yummy recipes when I took her to my home for a visit. Just sitting in those places with nothing to do and no responsibilities is bound to have a bad effect on anyone. Easy way for some unscrupulous relative to get their hands on some assets. Power of Attorney is very powerful.
DMaxer said
04:20 PM Sep 22, 2021
No hospital or doctor nor anyone else can refuse to allow a person to return home or force them into a nursing home. If a doctor has fears, the doctor can inform the patient of the fears and advise the patient it is unadvisable. If the patient chooses to leave and return home there is nothing the doctor or hospital can do. That is false imprisonment and would result in legal action.
If a hospital or doctor has concerns about the patient and thinks that the patient is in danger of self harm or does not have the mental capacity through dementia or other mental issues then the doctor or hospital needs to bring the matter before a medical tribunal and seek relevant orders. The patient is afforded legal representation both before and during any hearing. I have represented many people in these circumstances. No one gets dragged off to a nursing home due to a power of attorney. The power of attorney ceases upon mental illness and unless is an enduring Pia is invalid. These tales of horror are urban myths.
msg said
04:32 PM Sep 22, 2021
The one I described is not. Its a personal experience. Forgive me for saying Power of Attorney. Picky. Enduring Power of Attorney then.
-- Edited by msg on Wednesday 22nd of September 2021 04:37:09 PM
DMaxer said
07:08 AM Sep 23, 2021
Even with an enduring power of attorney you cannot act against someones wishes or their benefit msg. If their faculties are sufficient then they just revoke it. If they simply walk out of the aged centre no one can force them back without a court order. I have an enduring power of attorney for my aged mum plus guardianship. I have also drawn up heaps of these for others and explained the process at length. Doctors have no authority to direct where someone lives nor do relatives even with guardianship if the grantor has capacity to object. Even if they dont have capacity, a concerned third person can object. I am not being picky either but have seen the effects of this wrongful information on elderly people.
Whenarewethere said
07:30 AM Sep 23, 2021
Not to forget to set up power of attorney with super funds so you can pull all the money out if they are likely to die (like cancer etc).
You may need to get your solicitor to/or JP to sign paperwork at the critical time, but you just need to keep a straight face.
You need to have all the forms ready to send off within the 24 hour period before they may die.
Otherwise you will have to pay 15% tax. I saved $100k in tax for my siblings, with minutes to spare, not easy stuff under the circumstances.
So be prepared, get all the withdrawal forms, have spare copies filled in ready to copy, it's not easy, but you will save a fortune in tax.
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 07:31:39 AM
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 07:32:00 AM
dogbox said
09:03 AM Sep 23, 2021
an i thought dieing would be easy, if it gets any more complicated i might have to live forever, so far so good
dorian said
09:54 AM Sep 23, 2021
After a routine colonoscopy procedure, my local hospital won't let me go home unaccompanied even though my home is within walking distance. Can I simply walk out and walk home? Does the hospital have the right to restrain me? Are there any ramifications for me, assuming that I arrive home safely?
A friend's mother was forced to have electroconvulsive "therapy". I thought this kind of Frankensteinian barbarism only happened at Chelmsford, but it still goes on today. Can I specifically preclude this practice in an Advanced Care Directive, or can a doctor, or judge, override my objections?
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 09:55:17 AM
Whenarewethere said
10:06 AM Sep 23, 2021
I walked out of Manly Hospital years ago in my underpants due to lack of response. Demanded my x-rays, which they really tried hard to refuse to give me. I stood my ground.
Then I made my way to Sydney Hospital where all worked out well.
DMaxer said
10:38 AM Sep 23, 2021
No hospital, doctor or anyone else has the authority to prevent you from leaving. They are not gaols. If you just walk out what are they going to do. Have you arrested? Under what act, the Disregarding Medical Advice Act? If your insistence to leave is refused, the hospital would need to apply to a tribunal on the basis that you are not mentally capable of making a decision. If you are held against your will it is false imprisonment.
Treatment in mental institutions where the patient does not have capacity to consent is brought about after the patient and the patient's lawyer and the relevant psychiatrist(s) appear before the tribunal. The tribunal is usually comprised of a legal member, a medical member and a third person. They decide if the procedure/release etc is authorised. If you don't like their decision there is an appeal process. Shock treatment is not permitted under the mental health legislation without an order from the tribunal.
Bicyclecamper said
12:21 PM Sep 23, 2021
My wife and I are having issues at the moment, as we put our wills in the hands of the Public Trustee, when we went overseas in 09', we have organised to change that to our former solicitor, in two weeks time, and the Public Trustee, wants to do a Competency test on us, even though it was only ever our wills were with them. The wills have been with them for 10 years, as we never got around to changing them. We get the impression, they are after control of our property. We are both very stable and competent. It was the worse mistake we ever made. The thing is we didn't tell them about taking the wills out of their hands, not did the solicitor. I made the appointment with the solicitor 2 weeks ago, and got the letter from the PT on Friday last, with their demands. Apparently after I rang the PT, about the letter, after 10 years, and the age of the respondents, they want to do a competency test, to see if we are capable to looking after our own affairs.. We are not even aged pensioners yet, and a long way to go. Luckily we had contacted our own solicitor, otherwise, we could have been stuffed. Still don't trust the PT, though.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 12:39:43 PM
Mike Harding said
01:05 PM Sep 23, 2021
Bicyclecamper wrote:
they want to do a competency test, to see if we are capable to looking after our own affairs.
How do they do that? Of what does a "competency test" comprise? Anyone know?
And what does "we put our wills in the hands of the Public Trustee" mean? Did you make them the executor?
All seems quite odd.
Whenarewethere said
02:06 PM Sep 23, 2021
A new Will overrides a previous Will. People have to regularly change Wills. Simply due to changed family circumstances. Go to your solicitor.
Nevd said
02:13 PM Sep 23, 2021
I have had several clients who have had dealings with the Public Trustee. Incompetence in managing their client's affairs, often handled by untrained staff. For example - child hit by a car, disabled for life. Got an insurance payout. Parents thought they were doing the right thing by allowing PT to manage her affairs. PT bought a rental property (an older house) and then proceeded to manage it incompetently - after all they are not investment or real estate specialists. Losing money because of unpaid rent & high maintenance costs. In another case, a woman's husband had to report all investing and spending from his wife's damages payout to the PT. What would they know about investing?
Bicyclecamper said
03:35 PM Sep 23, 2021
I think, that the PT is peeved, that they won't be getting the 17% of our estate, that they charge if you do wills with them. I know I was idiot that we even put the wills in their hands, but we were put on the spot, as we forgot about doing them just before we went overseas, so used the PT for the convenience of them. Know better now.
landy said
09:24 PM Sep 23, 2021
Its called State Trustees in Victoria and I suggest everybody stays well clear of them. In my many years on this earth I have never seen such a level of of incompetence and arrogance in one organization, or maybe that should read disorganization. Landy.
DMaxer said
07:33 AM Sep 24, 2021
None of this needs to be difficult. The amount of disinformation on forums is frightening. If you dont wish a family member to be the executor and trustee of your will then the solicitor who prepares your will will advise you of alternative trustees that will administer your estate after probate is granted. Trustees cant make unilateral decisions, they have to act in and for the interests of the beneficiaries.
Instead of getting in a lather just consult your solicitor and they will explain to you this straight forward process.
Imprisoned in rehab: How Janines life has spiralled out of her control (msn.com)
I find this rather frightening. Is it possible? If so, how do we protect ourselves?
I do know from personnel experience that this sort of thing could happen. Go into hospital after a fall, have a temporary back injury. Hospital wouldn't allow person to return to their home. Needs care. Quite rightly. Insisted on sending her to a nursing home. After being there for a few weeks was declared to have dementia. Frequent UTI and drug induced confusion caused by poor care practices at the nursing home. If someone has dimentia, how can she name each of her nine great grandchildren and their birthdays, her telephone number and address. Yes, she couldn't have a long conversation about world politics or solve a suduku puzzle. Don't know that she was ever able to do this. Just no interest in those things. Interest was home and family. She was quite capable of making a cup of tea safely and teach me how to cook a couple of her yummy recipes when I took her to my home for a visit. Just sitting in those places with nothing to do and no responsibilities is bound to have a bad effect on anyone. Easy way for some unscrupulous relative to get their hands on some assets. Power of Attorney is very powerful.
The one I described is not. Its a personal experience. Forgive me for saying Power of Attorney. Picky. Enduring Power of Attorney then.
-- Edited by msg on Wednesday 22nd of September 2021 04:37:09 PM
Not to forget to set up power of attorney with super funds so you can pull all the money out if they are likely to die (like cancer etc).
You may need to get your solicitor to/or JP to sign paperwork at the critical time, but you just need to keep a straight face.
You need to have all the forms ready to send off within the 24 hour period before they may die.
Otherwise you will have to pay 15% tax. I saved $100k in tax for my siblings, with minutes to spare, not easy stuff under the circumstances.
So be prepared, get all the withdrawal forms, have spare copies filled in ready to copy, it's not easy, but you will save a fortune in tax.
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 07:31:39 AM
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 07:32:00 AM
After a routine colonoscopy procedure, my local hospital won't let me go home unaccompanied even though my home is within walking distance. Can I simply walk out and walk home? Does the hospital have the right to restrain me? Are there any ramifications for me, assuming that I arrive home safely?
A friend's mother was forced to have electroconvulsive "therapy". I thought this kind of Frankensteinian barbarism only happened at Chelmsford, but it still goes on today. Can I specifically preclude this practice in an Advanced Care Directive, or can a doctor, or judge, override my objections?
-- Edited by dorian on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 09:55:17 AM
I walked out of Manly Hospital years ago in my underpants due to lack of response. Demanded my x-rays, which they really tried hard to refuse to give me. I stood my ground.
Then I made my way to Sydney Hospital where all worked out well.
No hospital, doctor or anyone else has the authority to prevent you from leaving. They are not gaols. If you just walk out what are they going to do. Have you arrested? Under what act, the Disregarding Medical Advice Act? If your insistence to leave is refused, the hospital would need to apply to a tribunal on the basis that you are not mentally capable of making a decision. If you are held against your will it is false imprisonment.
Treatment in mental institutions where the patient does not have capacity to consent is brought about after the patient and the patient's lawyer and the relevant psychiatrist(s) appear before the tribunal. The tribunal is usually comprised of a legal member, a medical member and a third person. They decide if the procedure/release etc is authorised. If you don't like their decision there is an appeal process. Shock treatment is not permitted under the mental health legislation without an order from the tribunal.
My wife and I are having issues at the moment, as we put our wills in the hands of the Public Trustee, when we went overseas in 09', we have organised to change that to our former solicitor, in two weeks time, and the Public Trustee, wants to do a Competency test on us, even though it was only ever our wills were with them. The wills have been with them for 10 years, as we never got around to changing them. We get the impression, they are after control of our property. We are both very stable and competent. It was the worse mistake we ever made. The thing is we didn't tell them about taking the wills out of their hands, not did the solicitor. I made the appointment with the solicitor 2 weeks ago, and got the letter from the PT on Friday last, with their demands. Apparently after I rang the PT, about the letter, after 10 years, and the age of the respondents, they want to do a competency test, to see if we are capable to looking after our own affairs.. We are not even aged pensioners yet, and a long way to go. Luckily we had contacted our own solicitor, otherwise, we could have been stuffed. Still don't trust the PT, though.
-- Edited by Bicyclecamper on Thursday 23rd of September 2021 12:39:43 PM
How do they do that? Of what does a "competency test" comprise? Anyone know?
And what does "we put our wills in the hands of the Public Trustee" mean? Did you make them the executor?
All seems quite odd.
A new Will overrides a previous Will. People have to regularly change Wills. Simply due to changed family circumstances. Go to your solicitor.
I have never seen such a level of of incompetence and arrogance in one organization, or maybe that should read disorganization.
Landy.