An announcement of a new defence pact to assist and share technology including nuclear submarines - looks like Oz will dump Turnbull's stupid sub. deal with France. Time we took a serious military stance to indicate to China they can't walk over whoever they wish:
Christopher Pine left a lot to answer for with the Froggy deal. Still will cost us $400 million to get out of it.
Whenarewethere said
07:42 AM Sep 16, 2021
& I suppose we need to import the fuel as we don't have the resources of making our own!
& I assume we going to develop our own ICBM or import new ones every couple of years!
So two "beer" cans in service at any one time, two in operation & two spares. So a minimum of 6 on a threadbare shoestring!
Whenarewethere said
07:52 AM Sep 16, 2021
Subs with flyscreens, planes missing a second engine, boat hulls built with Chinese metal which fails NATA, vehicles that fall over as they are too top heavy. Soldiers saying bang bang bang with the help of speach therapists to get around the bullet shortage.
At least Lithgow can make the pretend fire crackers for them.
I almost forgot, that blew up.
Thing are looking good!
Magnarc said
08:52 AM Sep 16, 2021
On this we agree Mike! According to the ABC news they will not be armed with nuclear missiles. This being the case they will present no more of a threat to China or anyone else than our present lot.
Surely they have to go the whole hog or not at all. I wonder if its a case of lets get them, we can always "modify" them later.?
Whenarewethere said
09:33 AM Sep 16, 2021
Magnarc wrote:
I wonder if its a case of lets get them, we can always "modify" them later.?
Australian water is different so we will need special off road water propellers!
Mike Harding said
09:48 AM Sep 16, 2021
I knew we'd find common ground Magnarc :)
I suspect it was considered it would be too big a leap for Oz public opinion to go nuclear weaponised in one go so we start with nuclear powered subs to get people use to the idea then, later, buy in one or two, you know, small nukes :)
I don't know whether the subs will carry cruise or ballistic but either missile is available as conventional or nuke and I suspect launch vehicles may well be able to host either.
If we have a few nuclear armoured subs hanging around in the Indian and/or Pacific oceans it will give the Chinese an awful lot more to think about. No point in overrunning a country if after you do they launch 50 nukes at your major military and government centres. It has largely been the fleet of Polaris submarines which has made the British nuclear deterrent so effective despite its small size.
Magnarc said
11:54 AM Sep 16, 2021
Good point, I had forgotten that they could be either conventional or nuke. Well at least they will be relatively silent!!! Just as an aside, has anyone else noticed that the chinese leader always looks as if he would'nt hurt a fly or is it just me??
Mike Harding said
12:47 PM Sep 16, 2021
It's just you :)
Whenarewethere said
01:26 PM Sep 16, 2021
Magnarc wrote:
has anyone else noticed that the chinese leader always looks as if he would'nt hurt a fly or is it just me??
He has directed that all males be shaved (probably females as well) so that they look more feminine than he does.
I suppose it has something to do with the 50 million shortfall of females after the the population killed baby girls to keep the family name going.
Oh... that doesn't actually work. It's a dead end on both respects... Name & no females!
Give it another decade & China will have their third worst disaster. 60 million one civil war, 40 million another one, maybe 30 million this time round if they are lucky.
erad said
03:32 PM Sep 16, 2021
Magnarc wrote, in part "Well at least they will be relatively silent!!!" Wrong! Nuclear powered subs are as noisy as hell because they must have the cooling water pumps going flat out to keep the core from burning a hole in the hull. The Oberon Class subs (about 50 years ago) were about the quietest subs ever made.
As for the Chinese delivering their missiles to us, I am sure that can send them airmail....
yobarr said
05:44 PM Sep 16, 2021
erad wrote:
Magnarc wrote, in part "Well at least they will be relatively silent!!!" Wrong! Nuclear powered subs are as noisy as hell because they must have the cooling water pumps going flat out to keep the core from burning a hole in the hull. The Oberon Class subs (about 50 years ago) were about the quietest subs ever made.
As for the Chinese delivering their missiles to us, I am sure that can send them airmail.
And I seem to recall that those missiles travel at a speed greater than the speed of sound,with a range of thousands of kilometres.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 16th of September 2021 05:51:43 PM
Whenarewethere said
06:08 PM Sep 16, 2021
British & French nuclear submarines ran into each other in 2009. They couldn't hear each other.
rgren2 said
07:38 PM Sep 16, 2021
From what Ive read, the subs are the Orca drone, which presently are battery powered with diesel recharge. All reports state that they are nuke powered, that means that these will be new tech, possibly a very small reactor put where the diesel engine and/or fuel tanks would normally go. Anyway, drones that will be built in SA. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca_(AUV)
oldbloke said
09:37 PM Sep 16, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
Bloody excellent!
An announcement of a new defence pact to assist and share technology including nuclear submarines - looks like Oz will dump Turnbull's stupid sub. deal with France. Time we took a serious military stance to indicate to China they can't walk over whoever they wish:
Yep, great news. Should never have considered diesel/electric.
IMO buy two right now off the shelf and load the vertical tubes with smallish mushroom makers ASAP. Give China something to think about. Then build the rest ASAP.
I could never understand why we don't have rolling contracts.
Smart countries know at the very least that they need X number of assets built per year, every year, every decade.
For example:
As soon as one boat is built they start on the next one which they incorporate the new requirements & avoid the mistakes of the previous one.
They maintain the highly skilled workforce. Train the next generations of apprentices & university workforce, which adds so much depth of skills to the country as a whole.
Australia fluffs around. A broad base of skills go offshore. We fight against the relatives (each State). We can't even build a dinghy.
Where is the 99 year organisation?
Mike Harding said
08:14 AM Sep 17, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
Where is the 99 year organisation?
The consequence of three year terms (too short) and a proliferation of lawyers and accountants into politics and government - they only see numbers not concepts.
Whenarewethere said
08:27 AM Sep 17, 2021
Mike Harding wrote:
Whenarewethere wrote:
Where is the 99 year organisation?
The consequence of three year terms (too short) and a proliferation of lawyers and accountants into politics and government - they only see numbers not concepts.
Our political forefathers could look ahead 99 years with transport corridors, areas for expansion of public infrastructure.
The last number of decades politics has the foresight which extends to the evening news. More recently to the next tweet!
Magnarc said
11:06 AM Sep 20, 2021
Pollies are myopic. Cannot see beyond the next election.
Cupie said
03:38 PM Sep 20, 2021
We need Statesmen & Technocrats, not Politicians & Beaurocrats.
What ever happened to our fantastic Career Professional Public Servants. I know. Sacked by incoming Polies & replaced with political stooges & self interested Consultants & Contractors .. by both sides since Little Johnnie Howard, at least.
We now have Govt Departments directed by incompetent Polies and managed by other incompetents who can't implement or manage a bloody thing. Plan ahead??? You've got to be joking. It's all about the current & next political cycle while accruing personal wealth.
Back to the OP ...
We very much need firm alliances with strong partners when faced with the clear aggression of China & aught to call it as such. Of course over time this will cost us in terms of involvement in such fools errands as Vietnam & Afghanistan with terrible loss of Aussie lives but it is a cost that we must bear for that support in the face of super power aggression from such as China.
Perhaps that is the real value of the AUKUS alliance and not a few subs to be delivered on the never never or even a so called Joint Strike Fighter that will probably never be a Canberra like success.
We can only do what we can do while we await/assist the inevitable collapse of the CCP through the inevitable demise of Xi Jinping, or the implosion of the Chinese economy that is far from being the solid powerhouse that some think, not to forget the unrest of a growing & ever more demanding, educated middle class & likely hood of yet another civil war (read just a bit of Chinese history).
I hope that this doesn't come across as just another Jingoistic rant.
ps. The French will always be the French & not a power to hitch our wagon to. Look at their history too.
PS Sorry .. Late Edit .. Perhaps a timely footnote to my comment about the Chinese economy
Bloody excellent!
An announcement of a new defence pact to assist and share technology including nuclear submarines - looks like Oz will dump Turnbull's stupid sub. deal with France. Time we took a serious military stance to indicate to China they can't walk over whoever they wish:
Article from The Age
& I suppose we need to import the fuel as we don't have the resources of making our own!
& I assume we going to develop our own ICBM or import new ones every couple of years!
So two "beer" cans in service at any one time, two in operation & two spares. So a minimum of 6 on a threadbare shoestring!
Subs with flyscreens, planes missing a second engine, boat hulls built with Chinese metal which fails NATA, vehicles that fall over as they are too top heavy. Soldiers saying bang bang bang with the help of speach therapists to get around the bullet shortage.
At least Lithgow can make the pretend fire crackers for them.
I almost forgot, that blew up.
Thing are looking good!
On this we agree Mike! According to the ABC news they will not be armed with nuclear missiles. This being the case they will present no more of a threat to China or anyone else than our present lot.
Surely they have to go the whole hog or not at all. I wonder if its a case of lets get them, we can always "modify" them later.?
Australian water is different so we will need special off road water propellers!
I knew we'd find common ground Magnarc :)
I suspect it was considered it would be too big a leap for Oz public opinion to go nuclear weaponised in one go so we start with nuclear powered subs to get people use to the idea then, later, buy in one or two, you know, small nukes :)
I don't know whether the subs will carry cruise or ballistic but either missile is available as conventional or nuke and I suspect launch vehicles may well be able to host either.
If we have a few nuclear armoured subs hanging around in the Indian and/or Pacific oceans it will give the Chinese an awful lot more to think about. No point in overrunning a country if after you do they launch 50 nukes at your major military and government centres. It has largely been the fleet of Polaris submarines which has made the British nuclear deterrent so effective despite its small size.
Good point, I had forgotten that they could be either conventional or nuke. Well at least they will be relatively silent!!! Just as an aside, has anyone else noticed that the chinese leader always looks as if he would'nt hurt a fly or is it just me??
It's just you :)
He has directed that all males be shaved (probably females as well) so that they look more feminine than he does.
I suppose it has something to do with the 50 million shortfall of females after the the population killed baby girls to keep the family name going.
Oh... that doesn't actually work. It's a dead end on both respects... Name & no females!
Give it another decade & China will have their third worst disaster. 60 million one civil war, 40 million another one, maybe 30 million this time round if they are lucky.
As for the Chinese delivering their missiles to us, I am sure that can send them airmail....
And I seem to recall that those missiles travel at a speed greater than the speed of sound,with a range of thousands of kilometres.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 16th of September 2021 05:51:43 PM
British & French nuclear submarines ran into each other in 2009. They couldn't hear each other.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca_(AUV)
Yep, great news. Should never have considered diesel/electric.
IMO buy two right now off the shelf and load the vertical tubes with smallish mushroom makers ASAP. Give China something to think about. Then build the rest ASAP.
I could never understand why we don't have rolling contracts.
Smart countries know at the very least that they need X number of assets built per year, every year, every decade.
For example:
As soon as one boat is built they start on the next one which they incorporate the new requirements & avoid the mistakes of the previous one.
They maintain the highly skilled workforce. Train the next generations of apprentices & university workforce, which adds so much depth of skills to the country as a whole.
Australia fluffs around. A broad base of skills go offshore. We fight against the relatives (each State). We can't even build a dinghy.
Where is the 99 year organisation?
The consequence of three year terms (too short) and a proliferation of lawyers and accountants into politics and government - they only see numbers not concepts.
Our political forefathers could look ahead 99 years with transport corridors, areas for expansion of public infrastructure.
The last number of decades politics has the foresight which extends to the evening news. More recently to the next tweet!
Pollies are myopic. Cannot see beyond the next election.
We need Statesmen & Technocrats, not Politicians & Beaurocrats.
What ever happened to our fantastic Career Professional Public Servants. I know. Sacked by incoming Polies & replaced with political stooges & self interested Consultants & Contractors .. by both sides since Little Johnnie Howard, at least.
We now have Govt Departments directed by incompetent Polies and managed by other incompetents who can't implement or manage a bloody thing. Plan ahead??? You've got to be joking. It's all about the current & next political cycle while accruing personal wealth.
Back to the OP ...
We very much need firm alliances with strong partners when faced with the clear aggression of China & aught to call it as such. Of course over time this will cost us in terms of involvement in such fools errands as Vietnam & Afghanistan with terrible loss of Aussie lives but it is a cost that we must bear for that support in the face of super power aggression from such as China.
Perhaps that is the real value of the AUKUS alliance and not a few subs to be delivered on the never never or even a so called Joint Strike Fighter that will probably never be a Canberra like success.
We can only do what we can do while we await/assist the inevitable collapse of the CCP through the inevitable demise of Xi Jinping, or the implosion of the Chinese economy that is far from being the solid powerhouse that some think, not to forget the unrest of a growing & ever more demanding, educated middle class & likely hood of yet another civil war (read just a bit of Chinese history).
I hope that this doesn't come across as just another Jingoistic rant.
ps. The French will always be the French & not a power to hitch our wagon to. Look at their history too.
PS Sorry .. Late Edit .. Perhaps a timely footnote to my comment about the Chinese economy
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/evergrande-china-lehman-brothers-moment/
-- Edited by Cupie on Monday 20th of September 2021 06:46:01 PM
-- Edited by Cupie on Monday 20th of September 2021 06:48:32 PM
-- Edited by Cupie on Tuesday 21st of September 2021 08:19:17 AM