Today I spoke with an engineer who was busy straightening,and strengthening,a severely bent chassis on a BT50.Seems the owner,in his wisdom, chose to fit airbags to a leaf-sprung vehicle.Because of where the load is applied to the chassis,this is a no-no,although some will disagree. Whatever. Anyway,he loaded his ute with a lot of gear,put 50psi in the airbags,and set sail.Bad move,as when he went through a washout at speed,the point loading resulted in a severely bent chassis. No doubt there will be those who say that airbags on leaf springs are OK,but when the load is applied to a point on the chassis that is not designed to take that load,you're asking for trouble.Cheers
Your engineer friend is going to be working overtime to straighten that one, maybe turning it over and dropping it again would fix it.
yobarr said
06:54 PM Aug 16, 2021
iana wrote:
Your engineer friend is going to be working overtime to straighten that one, maybe turning it over and dropping it again would fix it.
Ha Ha. Luckily for him,Ian,the car in question is not so severely bent.That photo was only for illustration purposes.Cheers
iana said
08:06 PM Aug 16, 2021
I know! I know!
Brenda and Alan said
07:55 AM Aug 17, 2021
Nice photo yobarr, but where that chassis is bent was not caused by air bags on the rear suspension.
Alan
KJB said
09:01 AM Aug 17, 2021
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Nice photo yobarr, but where that chassis is bent was not caused by air bags on the rear suspension.
Alan
That is a bent chassis , it does not matter where it is bent or what caused it ....the vehicle is stuffed. Yobarr stated that the pic. was for "illustration purposes.."
If you want to bend a loaded , light weight chassis, using air bags on a Leaf Spring suspension is a good start..........just add an undulating road!. KB
yobarr said
09:19 AM Aug 17, 2021
KJB wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Nice photo yobarr, but where that chassis is bent was not caused by air bags on the rear suspension.
Alan
That is a bent chassis , it does not matter where it is bent or what caused it ....the vehicle is stuffed. Yobarr stated that the pic. was for "illustration purposes.."
If you want to bend a loaded , light weight chassis, using air bags on a Leaf Spring suspension is a good start..........just add an undulating road!. KB
Thanks Kerry.Some people don't actually READ posts,but are easily confused,happy to bleat and moan about anything.C'est la vie.Cheers
P.S Just to keep the peace,here is a chassis that WAS bent by aurbags,as well as the quick way to "repair" the damage.
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
You've done well,Ralph,as 2700kg is about the best that a Navara can manage. Probably two reasons you've achieved what you have,with the first being that you probably stuck to 270kg towball weight,and the other being that you no doubt sensibly loaded the rear of your car.The fact that you limited pressure in your airbags to only 15lb certainly would have helped you achieve the result you have.Being an ex-truckie,you will have a learned ability to "feel" the car's reaction to any weight input.You are to be applauded for that.However,all these things do not change the fact that leaf-sprung vehicles are not designed to have airbags fitted.Cheers
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
You've done well,Ralph,as 2700kg is about the best that a Navara can manage. Probably two reasons you've achieved what you have,with the first being that you probably stuck to 270kg towball weight,and the other being that you no doubt sensibly loaded the rear of your car.The fact that you limited pressure in your airbags to only 15lb certainly would have helped you achieve the result you have.Being an ex-truckie,you will have a learned ability to "feel" the car's reaction to any weight input.You are to be applauded for that.However,all these things do not change the fact that leaf-sprung vehicles are not designed to have airbags fitted.Cheers
A retired truck driver. Thank you.
yobarr said
08:26 AM Aug 18, 2021
Radar wrote:
Bugger! They do bend.
nmp.
Ralph,might I suggest that if you were as old,and as rusted,as that old bus,you'd be bent too! Cheers
Gundog said
12:37 PM Aug 18, 2021
Radar wrote:
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 17th of August 2021 09:57:32 PM
I am wondering what was your reasoning to come to the decision to install air bags.
iana said
01:56 PM Aug 18, 2021
I am wondering if there is another factor causing the chassis problems. I agree that airbags between the leaf springs is not a good idea, am thinking more about stress reversals, and traveling at speed over corrugated roads.
So traveling along hi-ways etc. while there is a downward force, there is much less chance of damage than traveling at speed over corrugation's.
I was in new Guinea for about 4 years in the Highlands, and you wouldn't believe how overloaded the vehicles were, but they traveled slowly, and I cannot recall seeing one broken chassis.
I have seen one Landcruiser tray top here in Aus. that was broken on one side.
Radar said
02:22 PM Aug 18, 2021
Gundog wrote:
Radar wrote:
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
I am wondering what was your reasoning to come to the decision to install air bags.
Gundog hi.
It really started bck in 2014 shortly after purchasing this very comfortable ute, at the time we had the proverbial 2 tonne pop top caravan and I noticed it was a bit weak in the rear springs, tried a couple of shot cuts type springs but they rattle against the chassis.
Rang a couple of friends about air bags for the rear end with good feed back, big kilometres on 5 utes, 3 of the utes loaded to the extreme towing good size trailers.
So the airbags went on and solved the initial problem but 2017 come around with now a 2.7 tonne caravan I decided enough is enough and into a suspension shop and a total rebuild of the suspension but left the bags there just add extra air for towing.
All but 1 of those cars are still with the orignal owners and he tows a 5th wheeler race car trailer, his father saids 40 psi between inter state events, big kilometres during the summer season.
My main reason for bags, the car sagged in the rear end when loaded and it was relatively cheaper option to the fix.
Would I do it again, yes but I probably don't need them nowadays. I could get curious and remove them and see how it goes.
Hope I answered your question.
KJB said
04:35 PM Aug 18, 2021
Radar wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Radar wrote:
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
I am wondering what was your reasoning to come to the decision to install air bags.
Gundog hi.
It really started bck in 2014 shortly after purchasing this very comfortable ute, at the time we had the proverbial 2 tonne pop top caravan and I noticed it was a bit weak in the rear springs, tried a couple of shot cuts type springs but they rattle against the chassis.
Rang a couple of friends about air bags for the rear end with good feed back, big kilometres on 5 utes, 3 of the utes loaded to the extreme towing good size trailers.
So the airbags went on and solved the initial problem but 2017 come around with now a 2.7 tonne caravan I decided enough is enough and into a suspension shop and a total rebuild of the suspension but left the bags there just add extra air for towing.
All but 1 of those cars are still with the orignal owners and he tows a 5th wheeler race car trailer, his father saids 40 psi between inter state events, big kilometres during the summer season.
My main reason for bags, the car sagged in the rear end when loaded and it was relatively cheaper option to the fix.
Would I do it again, yes but I probably don't need them nowadays. I could get curious and remove them and see how it goes.
Hope I answered your question.
It pays to be very particular when inflating those little airbags .They have a small volume and it takes very little to inflate them to a greater pressure than intended.....and they can then turn "rock hard" and it takes chassis bending pressure (the load..) to compress them to result in some form of "suspension movement" The pressure relative to the load before damage begins is only "guess work" by the operator. KB
Gundog said
09:36 AM Aug 19, 2021
Radar wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Radar wrote:
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
I am wondering what was your reasoning to come to the decision to install air bags.
Gundog hi.
It really started bck in 2014 shortly after purchasing this very comfortable ute, at the time we had the proverbial 2 tonne pop top caravan and I noticed it was a bit weak in the rear springs, tried a couple of shot cuts type springs but they rattle against the chassis.
Rang a couple of friends about air bags for the rear end with good feed back, big kilometres on 5 utes, 3 of the utes loaded to the extreme towing good size trailers.
So the airbags went on and solved the initial problem but 2017 come around with now a 2.7 tonne caravan I decided enough is enough and into a suspension shop and a total rebuild of the suspension but left the bags there just add extra air for towing.
All but 1 of those cars are still with the orignal owners and he tows a 5th wheeler race car trailer, his father saids 40 psi between inter state events, big kilometres during the summer season.
My main reason for bags, the car sagged in the rear end when loaded and it was relatively cheaper option to the fix.
Would I do it again, yes but I probably don't need them nowadays. I could get curious and remove them and see how it goes.
Hope I answered your question.
thank you, about 6 years ago I made similar enquiries at big name auto accessories joints, almost everyone of them said fit airbags, but I rejected the idea based on knowelege I had garnered back in 1980 when these same places were suggesting pump up shockies, back then I choose to fit a Haymen Reece Weight distribution hitch and towbar.
I went with the tried and true method and used a WDH.
Whenarewethere said
07:24 PM Aug 19, 2021
Gundog wrote:
thank you, about 6 years ago I made similar enquiries at big name auto accessories joints, almost everyone of them said fit airbags, but I rejected the idea based on knowelege I had garnered back in 1980 when these same places were suggesting pump up shockies, back then I choose to fit a Haymen Reece Weight distribution hitch and towbar.
I put Sachs air shocks on my Peugeot 504, did it myself & onboard compressor. There were great for a bit of extra clearance, about 50mm. It was amazing where I took a two wheel drive car, but I didn't tow.
Radar said
09:34 PM Aug 19, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
Gundog wrote:
thank you, about 6 years ago I made similar enquiries at big name auto accessories joints, almost everyone of them said fit airbags, but I rejected the idea based on knowelege I had garnered back in 1980 when these same places were suggesting pump up shockies, back then I choose to fit a Haymen Reece Weight distribution hitch and towbar.
I put Sachs air shocks on my Peugeot 504, did it myself & onboard compressor. There were great for a bit of extra clearance, about 50mm. It was amazing where I took a two wheel drive car, but I didn't tow.
Torana xu1 was the car that had air shocks fitted by the father of a leading Holen Team Champion Driver back in 1974 I think and then along come our Peugeot 504, Now that was a great car, those other car owners would never understand, 1974, 4 wheel disc brakes, independent suspension, drive it for hours on the speed limit, I mean drive it for hours at the speed limit and get out fairly fresh, then drive it back home. What a car.
Whenarewethere said
09:51 AM Aug 20, 2021
I once went down to the local sand/cement supply yard & asked if I could buy a boot load of blue metal.
They said no problem, handed over some cash. I had a shovel & proceeded to fill the boot to the last piece of blue metal I could fit in.
With the shocks up on maximum plus a "bit" I very carefully made my way home avoiding any potholes & other road imperfections.
Apart from the now well & truely grossly under powered car & driving very slowly on back streets the car did not drag its backside.
With a boot volume of 540 litres & blue metal at 3 tonnes per m³ one can calculate the situation! I also had alloy rims with wider tyres which I had stretch the body to fit. Still narrow by today's standard at 215mm rear 195mm front (175mm standard size).
I never did it again, but with care & a level road the car drove really nicely, you wouldn't have a clue there was all this weight, & the brakes worked well. I was careful not to over use them, using gears, but I did have metal pads which I had re-shoed from old pads, which were much better than standard pads.
By comparing, at work there was a 1 tonne Holden Rodeo, anything more than about 400kg it was uncontrollable on the road at more than 25kph.
Dick0 said
01:18 PM Aug 23, 2021
Is there any difference having air bags fitted to Coils or Leaf suspensions and if so, why?
yobarr said
03:05 PM Aug 23, 2021
Dick0 wrote:
Is there any difference having air bags fitted to Coils or Leaf suspensions and if so, why?
HUGE difference.Point loading where chassis are not designed to be point loaded is the problem.Cheers
KJB said
03:41 PM Aug 23, 2021
Radar,
I made the same move in early '70's - LJ Torana XU-1 to a Peugeot 504. Both cars were really good at what they were built to do . The 504 was a great Outback touring car - durable, comfortable, economical, tough.
The only car I have owned that was better was a - 1980 Mercedes 300D (W123 body, 5 cyl., Diesel) - it had all the same attributes as the 504 but probably even more so.
KB Oops- this was supposed to go under "Quotes.." Too late....!
-- Edited by KJB on Monday 23rd of August 2021 03:43:07 PM
-- Edited by KJB on Monday 23rd of August 2021 03:45:42 PM
Radar said
04:46 PM Aug 23, 2021
KJB wrote:
Radar,
I made the same move in early '70's - LJ Torana XU-1 to a Peugeot 504. Both cars were really good at what they were built to do . The 504 was a great Outback touring car - durable, comfortable, economical, tough.
The only car I have owned that was better was a - 1980 Mercedes 300D (W123 body, 5 cyl., Diesel) - it had all the same attributes as the 504 but probably even more so.
KB Oops- this was supposed to go under quotes.
KJB hi.
The xu1 was a veteran of Bathurst and 3 season of Group E racing ( I think that what class it was at the time) I was fulltime interstating and I thought after a week of peddling the semi the Torana rode pretty good until one day our tyre lady, the mother of HDT champion loan there Holden Statesman to go 20 ks to home along a shocker of road. Well I then understood what my wife was saying and thats when we fitted the air shockers, certainly helped to make in that situation to ride a lot better.
About 12 months or so that car was replaced by the 504 and a couple of years later after taking my Uncle for drive,a Holden man since the FJ, around trip of 80 ks to look at land, about month or so turned up with a 300D and then my father in law brought a Volvo 244.
They all blamed me for there choices. They were certainly good days.
Today I spoke with an engineer who was busy straightening,and strengthening,a severely bent chassis on a BT50.Seems the owner,in his wisdom, chose to fit airbags to a leaf-sprung vehicle.Because of where the load is applied to the chassis,this is a no-no,although some will disagree. Whatever. Anyway,he loaded his ute with a lot of gear,put 50psi in the airbags,and set sail.Bad move,as when he went through a washout at speed,the point loading resulted in a severely bent chassis. No doubt there will be those who say that airbags on leaf springs are OK,but when the load is applied to a point on the chassis that is not designed to take that load,you're asking for trouble.Cheers
Your engineer friend is going to be working overtime to straighten that one, maybe turning it over and dropping it again would fix it.
Ha Ha. Luckily for him,Ian,the car in question is not so severely bent.That photo was only for illustration purposes.Cheers
I know! I know!
Nice photo yobarr, but where that chassis is bent was not caused by air bags on the rear suspension.
Alan
That is a bent chassis , it does not matter where it is bent or what caused it ....the vehicle is stuffed. Yobarr stated that the pic. was for "illustration purposes.."
If you want to bend a loaded , light weight chassis, using air bags on a Leaf Spring suspension is a good start..........just add an undulating road!. KB
Thanks Kerry.Some people don't actually READ posts,but are easily confused,happy to bleat and moan about anything.C'est la vie.Cheers
P.S Just to keep the peace,here is a chassis that WAS bent by aurbags,as well as the quick way to "repair" the damage.
Here is a a photo of an unbent chassis 150000ks plus of which about 80000 towing a caravan weighing 2700 kgs. 7 years old now.
Enjoy every moment, about 8lbs psi empty and about 15 psi laden.
You lot really worry me. Bloody hell you lot worry me.
-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 17th of August 2021 09:57:32 PM
You've done well,Ralph,as 2700kg is about the best that a Navara can manage. Probably two reasons you've achieved what you have,with the first being that you probably stuck to 270kg towball weight,and the other being that you no doubt sensibly loaded the rear of your car.The fact that you limited pressure in your airbags to only 15lb certainly would have helped you achieve the result you have.Being an ex-truckie,you will have a learned ability to "feel" the car's reaction to any weight input.You are to be applauded for that.However,all these things do not change the fact that leaf-sprung vehicles are not designed to have airbags fitted.Cheers
Bugger! They do bend.
nmp.
A retired truck driver. Thank you.
Ralph,might I suggest that if you were as old,and as rusted,as that old bus,you'd be bent too! Cheers
I am wondering what was your reasoning to come to the decision to install air bags.
So traveling along hi-ways etc. while there is a downward force, there is much less chance of damage than traveling at speed over corrugation's.
I was in new Guinea for about 4 years in the Highlands, and you wouldn't believe how overloaded the vehicles were, but they traveled slowly, and I cannot recall seeing one broken chassis.
I have seen one Landcruiser tray top here in Aus. that was broken on one side.
Gundog hi.
It really started bck in 2014 shortly after purchasing this very comfortable ute, at the time we had the proverbial 2 tonne pop top caravan and I noticed it was a bit weak in the rear springs, tried a couple of shot cuts type springs but they rattle against the chassis.
Rang a couple of friends about air bags for the rear end with good feed back, big kilometres on 5 utes, 3 of the utes loaded to the extreme towing good size trailers.
So the airbags went on and solved the initial problem but 2017 come around with now a 2.7 tonne caravan I decided enough is enough and into a suspension shop and a total rebuild of the suspension but left the bags there just add extra air for towing.
All but 1 of those cars are still with the orignal owners and he tows a 5th wheeler race car trailer, his father saids 40 psi between inter state events, big kilometres during the summer season.
My main reason for bags, the car sagged in the rear end when loaded and it was relatively cheaper option to the fix.
Would I do it again, yes but I probably don't need them nowadays. I could get curious and remove them and see how it goes.
Hope I answered your question.
It pays to be very particular when inflating those little airbags .They have a small volume and it takes very little to inflate them to a greater pressure than intended.....and they can then turn "rock hard" and it takes chassis bending pressure (the load..) to compress them to result in some form of "suspension movement" The pressure relative to the load before damage begins is only "guess work" by the operator. KB
thank you, about 6 years ago I made similar enquiries at big name auto accessories joints, almost everyone of them said fit airbags, but I rejected the idea based on knowelege I had garnered back in 1980 when these same places were suggesting pump up shockies, back then I choose to fit a Haymen Reece Weight distribution hitch and towbar.
I went with the tried and true method and used a WDH.
I put Sachs air shocks on my Peugeot 504, did it myself & onboard compressor. There were great for a bit of extra clearance, about 50mm. It was amazing where I took a two wheel drive car, but I didn't tow.
Torana xu1 was the car that had air shocks fitted by the father of a leading Holen Team Champion Driver back in 1974 I think and then along come our Peugeot 504, Now that was a great car, those other car owners would never understand, 1974, 4 wheel disc brakes, independent suspension, drive it for hours on the speed limit, I mean drive it for hours at the speed limit and get out fairly fresh, then drive it back home. What a car.
I once went down to the local sand/cement supply yard & asked if I could buy a boot load of blue metal.
They said no problem, handed over some cash. I had a shovel & proceeded to fill the boot to the last piece of blue metal I could fit in.
With the shocks up on maximum plus a "bit" I very carefully made my way home avoiding any potholes & other road imperfections.
Apart from the now well & truely grossly under powered car & driving very slowly on back streets the car did not drag its backside.
With a boot volume of 540 litres & blue metal at 3 tonnes per m³ one can calculate the situation! I also had alloy rims with wider tyres which I had stretch the body to fit. Still narrow by today's standard at 215mm rear 195mm front (175mm standard size).
I never did it again, but with care & a level road the car drove really nicely, you wouldn't have a clue there was all this weight, & the brakes worked well. I was careful not to over use them, using gears, but I did have metal pads which I had re-shoed from old pads, which were much better than standard pads.
By comparing, at work there was a 1 tonne Holden Rodeo, anything more than about 400kg it was uncontrollable on the road at more than 25kph.
Is there any difference having air bags fitted to Coils or Leaf suspensions and if so, why?
HUGE difference.Point loading where chassis are not designed to be point loaded is the problem.Cheers
Radar,
I made the same move in early '70's - LJ Torana XU-1 to a Peugeot 504. Both cars were really good at what they were built to do . The 504 was a great Outback touring car - durable, comfortable, economical, tough.
The only car I have owned that was better was a - 1980 Mercedes 300D (W123 body, 5 cyl., Diesel) - it had all the same attributes as the 504 but probably even more so.
KB Oops- this was supposed to go under "Quotes.." Too late....!
-- Edited by KJB on Monday 23rd of August 2021 03:43:07 PM
-- Edited by KJB on Monday 23rd of August 2021 03:45:42 PM
KJB hi.
The xu1 was a veteran of Bathurst and 3 season of Group E racing ( I think that what class it was at the time) I was fulltime interstating and I thought after a week of peddling the semi the Torana rode pretty good until one day our tyre lady, the mother of HDT champion loan there Holden Statesman to go 20 ks to home along a shocker of road. Well I then understood what my wife was saying and thats when we fitted the air shockers, certainly helped to make in that situation to ride a lot better.
About 12 months or so that car was replaced by the 504 and a couple of years later after taking my Uncle for drive,a Holden man since the FJ, around trip of 80 ks to look at land, about month or so turned up with a 300D and then my father in law brought a Volvo 244.
They all blamed me for there choices. They were certainly good days.