I have previously stated on this forum that I support the right of individuals to refuse the covid vaccine and I still, currently, stand by that position.
FYI; I have had two AstraZenica jabs.
I consider freedom of choice, expression and opinion to be critical to a democratic society and probably far more so than most: eg. I oppose most of the discrimination acts and such which seek to limit how people may express themselves.
However: with freedom comes responsibility - one should not be free to falsely shout "Fire" in a crowded cinema causing a stampede and the like.
Therefore if you choose not to have a covid inoculation consider the following:
Today I heard on ABC radio news a doctor who is an intensive care specialist discussing intensive care wards and covid patients; he mentioned that the usual intensive care patients, prior to covid, were heart attacks, stroke, car accidents etc and their normal length of stay on the intensive care ward was three or four days. For covid patients their normal length of stay on the intensive care ward is three to four *weeks*!
Intensive care ward beds are *very* expensive to run and, thus, very few more than the statistical expectation are built which is why other countries with high covid levels have run out of them and also why NSW is currently seeing significant pressure on its intensive care system.
Please consider that if you choose not to be vaccinated and subsequently contract covid it's not just yourself you're putting at risk but also the stroke etc people who may be refused a bed because you are in it despite that you could have taken a vaccine which would have probably prevented it. Also, some poor doctor is going to have to make the decision about who gets an intensive care bed and who does not - who lives, who dies.
Freedom to choose is essential... but do we have the moral right to do whatever we want and the hell with everyone else? Your choice.
vince56 said
03:20 PM Aug 9, 2021
I think people who refuse to be vaccinated against Covid because it is "their right to choose" have a short memory, they have been lucky to live in a world where Smallpox, Polio, Yellow fever etc has been virtually wiped out because people (almost everyone) had been vaccinated against those diseases (usually whether you liked it or not). Take a look at the resurgence of Measles because of false information causing parents not to vaccinate their kids.
Currently Vaccination Passports have been discussed widely due to "human rights", once again people have a short memory, up to the 70's you needed a Vaccination Passport to enter a lot of countries, what is the difference?
oldbloke said
04:32 PM Aug 9, 2021
I think its simple. They don't get ICU if they need it..
yobarr said
04:39 PM Aug 9, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
I think its simple. They don't get ICU if they need it..
Most logical Covid post I've read.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 9th of August 2021 04:40:14 PM
msg said
04:44 PM Aug 9, 2021
Nasty, Nasty Yobarr and Old bloke
dogbox said
04:51 PM Aug 9, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
I think its simple. They don't get ICU if they need it..
i don't think you can deny them medical treatment if they need it but as what happened in other countries was that doctors had to make a decision as to who got the ICU bed and/or ventilator, so if our health system gets overwhelmed some one will be making those decisions. does the person who got the vaccine an gets hit hard, or has a heart attack, accident or what ever get the bed or the person who didn't get the jab, for what ever reason. so far we have been lucky. our hospitals have not been pushed to the breaking point were those decisions have had to be made
Rob Driver said
05:10 PM Aug 9, 2021
In my opinion, Personal Responsibility relating to vaccinations from many in Australia appears to be overruled by the peer pressure posts that are rife throughout social media pages.
This appears more from our younger generation than generally the older folk.
Foolish bravado will morph into Personal Responsibility when our hospitals are overrun with those outspoken, self entitled but ill informed groups that at present are casting their negative views for no other reason than to go against anything sensible within our communities.
Recently one of our daughters posted on her FB page that she was booked in to become vaccinated.
I could not believe the idiotic posts that came from some who I thought had a brain and would be responsible people.
Older family members and friends congratulated her while most of the younger ones referred to her as sheep and foolish. Some comments were quite hurtful.
Unfortunately these ill informed peanuts don't know how lucky that they are in a country which those in control actually cares for its population.
Maybe the death of a family member or a close friend who insisted that the vaccination of the community is not necessary will be the shock those irresponsible people need to grow up.
oldbloke said
05:26 PM Aug 9, 2021
They make a conscious decision to increase their risk relating to covid19. So, let them pay the consequences. This way ICU will be available to those that need it but have not intentionally added risk. Why should someone die, so that a dumb tin hatter can live.
There are even people (tin hatters) out there that think the vaccine has been made to kill them. FMD. TBH, I think for these nutters that the "laws of survival of the fittest" (smarter) should apply.
Bad decision = bad result
yobarr said
05:41 PM Aug 9, 2021
msg wrote:
Nasty, Nasty Yobarr and Old bloke
Nasty? Please explain. Probably too logical for some to comprehend? Cheers
msg said
05:49 PM Aug 9, 2021
Just mind your own business and do what is right for you. Leave everyone else alone. I am sure they are aware of their responsibilities and whether they act on them or not is up to them. Your ranting is not going to change their minds or wake them up what they are doing. On here, you are preaching to the majority of the converted and probably a waste of time and trying their patience. I want to hear about travelling not COVID.
Tony Bev said
06:36 PM Aug 9, 2021
I agree with what (OP) Mike Harding has said
But...
Unfortunately there will always be those who, (for whatever reasons), will never do the right thing
The man who took the virus from Sydney, to the Byron area, is not co-operating with police
I have no idea if he was vaccinated or not
What I am led to believe, is that he was out and about (while positive), never used the QR codes, or signed in anywhere, as he did not believe in it
Bicyclecamper said
06:54 PM Aug 9, 2021
gaol him, but they wont, he will get a 200 $ fine and that will be it.
montie said
07:25 PM Aug 9, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
I think its simple. They don't get ICU if they need it..
You reckon we should employ the firing squad!
Fortunately the Australian Govt does not share you bizarre opinion.
dogbox said
07:39 PM Aug 9, 2021
msg wrote:
Just mind your own business and do what is right for you. Leave everyone else alone. I am sure they are aware of their responsibilities and whether they act on them or not is up to them. Your ranting is not going to change their minds or wake them up what they are doing. On here, you are preaching to the majority of the converted and probably a waste of time and trying their patience. I want to hear about travelling not COVID.
unfortunately we can't do a lot of travelling at the moment because of the few people who think the rules don't apply to themselves , an the rest of us (majority ) have to sit tight , till enough people get vaccinated
Craig1 said
07:58 PM Aug 9, 2021
Encouraging from Melb news tonight that lots of 20-40 have booked in and will take the best vaccine, IE the one that is available.
Dicko1 said
08:15 PM Aug 9, 2021
msg wrote:
Just mind your own business and do what is right for you. Leave everyone else alone. I am sure they are aware of their responsibilities and whether they act on them or not is up to them. Your ranting is not going to change their minds or wake them up what they are doing. On here, you are preaching to the majority of the converted and probably a waste of time and trying their patience. I want to hear about travelling not COVID.
You want to hear about travelling and not covid...
Well get out of the "I digress" section...bloody simple really.
oldbloke said
08:49 PM Aug 9, 2021
montie wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
I think its simple. They don't get ICU if they need it..
You reckon we should employ the firing squad!
Fortunately the Australian Govt does not share you bizarre opinion.
My simple reply
Just keep in mind just like the flu and common cold. eventually everyone will get the Covid19.
AU population currently by the ABS 25,798,700
Total number of Covid cases as of today 36,630 = 1 in 704 (this explains why u may not know anyone who has had covid19)
Total number of Covid deaths 939
Total number of TTS deaths 5
Projected number of deaths by TTS 25 to 26 Based on 1 per ml which is statistically accurate at this point, but assumes everyone gets the AstraZeneca
36,630/939 = 39 this means 1 in 39 cases die from the Covid19 if they catch the disease
Soo, 939 x 704 = 661,056 people will die if there are no more vaccinations.
So, my opinion is bizarre? Well I think anyone who does not get the vaccination (unless there is a medical reason) are the ones who are bizarre. (stupid)
I think if anyone makes the bizarre (stupid) decision to not get vaccinated should not increase the risk of death for any person who might need ICU for any reason. So anti-vaxers should go to the bottom of the list of for health care when they get covid 19 IMO. I have zero sympathy for them. If they want to increase their risk of death, good luck to them. But don't expect help that might increase the risk of death of someone else. A bit like drunk, speeding drivers.
bad decisions = bad results
msg said
10:30 PM Aug 9, 2021
You are preaching to the converted.
oldbloke said
11:21 PM Aug 9, 2021
msg wrote:
You are preaching to the converted.
Hope so.
dorian said
03:48 AM Aug 10, 2021
msg wrote:
Nasty, Nasty Yobarr and Old bloke
You can include me. These selfish holdouts can stand or lie down at the end of the ICU queue.
Rob Driver said
07:46 AM Aug 10, 2021
dorian wrote:
msg wrote:
Nasty, Nasty Yobarr and Old bloke
You can include me. These selfish holdouts can stand or lie down at the end of the ICU queue.
msg,
You can also include me on your list.
We have lost a much loved family member to Covid 19. We lost her prior to any vaccination being available and during a lockdown which prevented any family members from visiting her or even supporting her.
I have absolutely no time at all for anti vaxxers. To deny having a vaccine that will protect us all is the worst form of anyone avoiding any personal responsibility and anyone who supports these people is not helping anyone.
To deny these same people an ICU bed should they get Covid is no different to them denying the majority of the population their responsibility in refusing a vaccination.
Just get vaccinated and encourage others to do the same.
dorian said
08:05 AM Aug 10, 2021
Rob Driver wrote:
dorian wrote:
msg wrote:
Nasty, Nasty Yobarr and Old bloke
You can include me. These selfish holdouts can stand or lie down at the end of the ICU queue.
msg,
You can also include me on your list.
We have lost a much loved family member to Covid 19. We lost her prior to any vaccination being available and during a lockdown which prevented any family members from visiting her or even supporting her.
I have absolutely no time at all for anti vaxxers. To deny having a vaccine that will protect us all is the worst form of anyone avoiding any personal responsibility and anyone who supports these people is not helping anyone.
To deny these same people an ICU bed should they get Covid is no different to them denying the majority of the population their responsibility in refusing a vaccination.
Just get vaccinated and encourage others to do the same.
My father was admitted to ICU several years ago, when he was in his late 80s, and after he contracted a drug resistant pneumococcal infection whilst in hospital. Even at that time the doctors were hesitant to admit him, citing his poor chances. Nevertheless they did, and he survived for a further two years at home before going into care, where he is now. If he had had to compete with a COVID antivaxxer for his ICU bed, he would probably have died.
dogbox said
08:45 AM Aug 10, 2021
ever notice that a lot of the anti - vaxers that front up on tv have a number of tattoos, body piercings ect
Santa said
10:00 AM Aug 10, 2021
dogbox wrote:
ever notice that a lot of the anti - vaxers that front up on tv have a number of tattoos, body piercings ect
And they need a bloody good wash.
yobarr said
10:22 AM Aug 10, 2021
dogbox wrote:
ever notice that a lot of the anti - vaxers that front up on tv have a number of tattoos, body piercings ect
Yes .. No JABS and no JOBS?
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 10th of August 2021 10:23:07 AM
Mike Harding said
12:53 PM Aug 10, 2021
It seems there are still many who think Covid is just like the flu - it may be mild in some but in others it will kill.
From today's The Age:
----
Weve been told that he hasnt been checking in anywhere, Byron Shire Mayor Michael Lyon said on Tuesday. He came up from Sydney in late July, ostensibly to look at real estate.
But hes apparently been quite evasive with questions. Nothing in his phone in terms of QR codes, didnt believe in COVID. So sick that he had to go to hospital and thats when its twigged, hes got COVID.
Yep You lot are the reason no one else posts on here anymore. Just a collection of nasty bitter old men looking to upset people and you should be banned. You have ruined this site.
Mike Harding said
02:08 PM Aug 10, 2021
msg:
It seems to me that:
1 - you seriously resent anyone posting something which conflicts with your views.
2 - if there is a bitter personality here it is you - reflect upon many of your posts where you disparage others, including me.
3 - you have an entrenched view of the Covid situation and you will never budge from that no matter the evidence to the contrary.
4 - I wonder why you post and conflict in these threads if you resent them so much?
5 - as far as I can tell posts to this site have increased noticeably over the past year or so.
msg said
02:12 PM Aug 10, 2021
Back at you.
Clarky 1 said
02:20 PM Aug 10, 2021
msg wrote:
Just mind your own business and do what is right for you. Leave everyone else alone. I am sure they are aware of their responsibilities and whether they act on them or not is up to them. Your ranting is not going to change their minds or wake them up what they are doing. On here, you are preaching to the majority of the converted and probably a waste of time and trying their patience. I want to hear about travelling not COVID.
For someone who wants to talk about travelling you certainly spend a lot of your forum time in the *I Digress* section or just commenting on the Covid topics.
It seems to be all good for you until someone posts something that you dont agree with.
Oh and I am a newbie here in the last twelve months.
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Tuesday 10th of August 2021 02:23:12 PM
Covid vaccination and personal responsibility
I have previously stated on this forum that I support the right of individuals to refuse the covid vaccine and I still, currently, stand by that position.
FYI; I have had two AstraZenica jabs.
I consider freedom of choice, expression and opinion to be critical to a democratic society and probably far more so than most: eg. I oppose most of the discrimination acts and such which seek to limit how people may express themselves.
However: with freedom comes responsibility - one should not be free to falsely shout "Fire" in a crowded cinema causing a stampede and the like.
Therefore if you choose not to have a covid inoculation consider the following:
Today I heard on ABC radio news a doctor who is an intensive care specialist discussing intensive care wards and covid patients; he mentioned that the usual intensive care patients, prior to covid, were heart attacks, stroke, car accidents etc and their normal length of stay on the intensive care ward was three or four days. For covid patients their normal length of stay on the intensive care ward is three to four *weeks*!
Intensive care ward beds are *very* expensive to run and, thus, very few more than the statistical expectation are built which is why other countries with high covid levels have run out of them and also why NSW is currently seeing significant pressure on its intensive care system.
Please consider that if you choose not to be vaccinated and subsequently contract covid it's not just yourself you're putting at risk but also the stroke etc people who may be refused a bed because you are in it despite that you could have taken a vaccine which would have probably prevented it. Also, some poor doctor is going to have to make the decision about who gets an intensive care bed and who does not - who lives, who dies.
Freedom to choose is essential... but do we have the moral right to do whatever we want and the hell with everyone else? Your choice.
Currently Vaccination Passports have been discussed widely due to "human rights", once again people have a short memory, up to the 70's you needed a Vaccination Passport to enter a lot of countries, what is the difference?
Most logical Covid post I've read.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 9th of August 2021 04:40:14 PM
i don't think you can deny them medical treatment if they need it but as what happened in other countries was that doctors had to make a decision as to who got the ICU bed and/or ventilator, so if our health system gets overwhelmed some one will be making those decisions. does the person who got the vaccine an gets hit hard, or has a heart attack, accident or what ever get the bed or the person who didn't get the jab, for what ever reason. so far we have been lucky. our hospitals have not been pushed to the breaking point were those decisions have had to be made
This appears more from our younger generation than generally the older folk.
Foolish bravado will morph into Personal Responsibility when our hospitals are overrun with those outspoken, self entitled but ill informed groups that at present are casting their negative views for no other reason than to go against anything sensible within our communities.
Recently one of our daughters posted on her FB page that she was booked in to become vaccinated.
I could not believe the idiotic posts that came from some who I thought had a brain and would be responsible people.
Older family members and friends congratulated her while most of the younger ones referred to her as sheep and foolish. Some comments were quite hurtful.
Unfortunately these ill informed peanuts don't know how lucky that they are in a country which those in control actually cares for its population.
Maybe the death of a family member or a close friend who insisted that the vaccination of the community is not necessary will be the shock those irresponsible people need to grow up.
There are even people (tin hatters) out there that think the vaccine has been made to kill them. FMD. TBH, I think for these nutters that the "laws of survival of the fittest" (smarter) should apply.
Bad decision = bad result
Nasty? Please explain. Probably too logical for some to comprehend? Cheers
But...
Unfortunately there will always be those who, (for whatever reasons), will never do the right thing
The man who took the virus from Sydney, to the Byron area, is not co-operating with police
I have no idea if he was vaccinated or not
What I am led to believe, is that he was out and about (while positive), never used the QR codes, or signed in anywhere, as he did not believe in it
You reckon we should employ the firing squad!
Fortunately the Australian Govt does not share you bizarre opinion.
unfortunately we can't do a lot of travelling at the moment because of the few people who think the rules don't apply to themselves , an the rest of us (majority ) have to sit tight , till enough people get vaccinated
You want to hear about travelling and not covid...
Well get out of the "I digress" section...bloody simple really.
My simple reply
Just keep in mind just like the flu and common cold. eventually everyone will get the Covid19.
AU population currently by the ABS 25,798,700
Total number of Covid cases as of today 36,630 = 1 in 704 (this explains why u may not know anyone who has had covid19)
Total number of Covid deaths 939
Total number of TTS deaths 5
Projected number of deaths by TTS 25 to 26 Based on 1 per ml which is statistically accurate at this point, but assumes everyone gets the AstraZeneca
36,630/939 = 39 this means 1 in 39 cases die from the Covid19 if they catch the disease
Soo, 939 x 704 = 661,056 people will die if there are no more vaccinations.
So, my opinion is bizarre? Well I think anyone who does not get the vaccination (unless there is a medical reason) are the ones who are bizarre. (stupid)
I think if anyone makes the bizarre (stupid) decision to not get vaccinated should not increase the risk of death for any person who might need ICU for any reason. So anti-vaxers should go to the bottom of the list of for health care when they get covid 19 IMO. I have zero sympathy for them. If they want to increase their risk of death, good luck to them. But don't expect help that might increase the risk of death of someone else. A bit like drunk, speeding drivers.
bad decisions = bad results
Hope so.
You can include me. These selfish holdouts can stand or lie down at the end of the ICU queue.
msg,
You can also include me on your list.
We have lost a much loved family member to Covid 19. We lost her prior to any vaccination being available and during a lockdown which prevented any family members from visiting her or even supporting her.
I have absolutely no time at all for anti vaxxers.
To deny having a vaccine that will protect us all is the worst form of anyone avoiding any personal responsibility and anyone who supports these people is not helping anyone.
To deny these same people an ICU bed should they get Covid is no different to them denying the majority of the population their responsibility in refusing a vaccination.
Just get vaccinated and encourage others to do the same.
My father was admitted to ICU several years ago, when he was in his late 80s, and after he contracted a drug resistant pneumococcal infection whilst in hospital. Even at that time the doctors were hesitant to admit him, citing his poor chances. Nevertheless they did, and he survived for a further two years at home before going into care, where he is now. If he had had to compete with a COVID antivaxxer for his ICU bed, he would probably have died.
And they need a bloody good wash.
Yes .. No JABS and no JOBS?
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 10th of August 2021 10:23:07 AM
It seems there are still many who think Covid is just like the flu - it may be mild in some but in others it will kill.
From today's The Age:
----
Weve been told that he hasnt been checking in anywhere, Byron Shire Mayor Michael Lyon said on Tuesday. He came up from Sydney in late July, ostensibly to look at real estate.
But hes apparently been quite evasive with questions. Nothing in his phone in terms of QR codes, didnt believe in COVID. So sick that he had to go to hospital and thats when its twigged, hes got COVID.
----
COVID-positive man looking at real estate in Byron Bay
msg:
It seems to me that:
1 - you seriously resent anyone posting something which conflicts with your views.
2 - if there is a bitter personality here it is you - reflect upon many of your posts where you disparage others, including me.
3 - you have an entrenched view of the Covid situation and you will never budge from that no matter the evidence to the contrary.
4 - I wonder why you post and conflict in these threads if you resent them so much?
5 - as far as I can tell posts to this site have increased noticeably over the past year or so.
For someone who wants to talk about travelling you certainly spend a lot of your forum time in the *I Digress* section or just commenting on the Covid topics.
It seems to be all good for you until someone posts something that you dont agree with.
Oh and I am a newbie here in the last twelve months.
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Tuesday 10th of August 2021 02:23:12 PM