Here are pics courtesy of SAPOL of a caravan and car roll over in SA.

I wonder is the operator of this combination going to be charged with exceeding the towing weight spec of the vehicle.

From what I have read the MUX has a towing limit of 3000 kg and even the shortest Silverline has an ATM of 3145.

Now I am not immediately jumping to conclusions of this traveller being fully loaded in the van so therefor he may be under his Towing weight but the combination would be very close to being on the maximum.

The MUX may have other weight restrictions but in any case if the van would have to be loaded 145kg lighter to weigh 3000kg

It is unfortunate that somewhere a dealer has sold this van to a person who's vehicle is under specification or at the least the owner has changed tow vehicles since purchase or at the very worse, the owner has no idea.

In the police comments attached to this report they suggest that caravan loading needs attention when travelling.

Fortunately there were no serious injuries.

TheHeaths wrote:

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The current Silverline Tourer 21.65 - 3 model has design weights according to Jayco website of Tare 2540kg, load 475kg, ATM thus 3015kg. Looking at the window placement on this van, it could quite possibly be that model.

Still over the MUX figure you quote, but not as far as you suggest may be the case, and careful loading could see the van legal for the MUX, using nearly all of its design rating. Of course that depends on the actual ratings after build and as shown on its VIN plate.

I think any comment re cause is premature and any suggestion of overload unfair on the driver. It is interesting though to see Police are suggesting van loading weights need attention

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 Hi Ian,

Thank you for those current figures.

I dont know wether you have had access to the report, but in any case the report from the Police were that the driver lost control of his rig while attempting to overtake another van combination.

The other vehicle was not subject to any damage but the SAPOL commentator made mention of how important it is for caravaners to ensure correct loading of their vans.

Regards

Rob

TheHeaths wrote:

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The current Silverline Tourer 21.65 - 3 model has design weights according to Jayco website of Tare 2540kg, load 475kg, ATM thus 3015kg. Looking at the window placement on this van, it could quite possibly be that model.

Still over the MUX figure you quote, but not as far as you suggest may be the case, and careful loading could see the van legal for the MUX, using nearly all of its design rating. Of course that depends on the actual ratings after build and as shown on its VIN plate.

I think any comment re cause is premature and any suggestion of overload unfair on the driver. It is interesting though to see Police are suggesting van loading weights need attention

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 Inclined to agree.

With a GVM of only 2750kg,there is no way known that an MUX can safely tow 3000kg,in my opinion. The rear axle carrying capacity is a miserable 1600kg,and that axle already carries 1080kg at tare.IF you were silly enough to tow a 3000kg van,the generally accepted 10% towball weight would put around 430kg onto the car's rear axle,so already you are up over 1500kg with no allowance for weight of towbar structure,tools,luggage etc. If safety is of ANY concern,IMO,the maximum weight that that vehicle can safely tow is around 2800kg,so that with 10% ball weight,(280kg) there would be GTM of 2520kg behind a car that MAY,with absolutely fanatical loading,be able to reach its GVM of 2750kg,and thus be around 10% heavier than the van it is towing.In actual fact,that too is impossible,but that's another story altogether! The way that tow ratings for lighter vehicles are calculated is a farce,and the sooner laws are enacted to match those which are in place for vehicles that have a GVM above 4500kg,the better,IMO. For those unfamiliar with those laws,if a vehicle has a GVM over 4500kg,ALWAYS any PIG trailer (caravan) if tows MUST weigh less than the  towing vehicle.This minimises the all too common situation of "The tail wagging the dog",and is the reason that many earthmoving contractors have to put a couple of buckets of dirt into the back of their truck when they're towing a PIG trailer that is carrying an excavator,loader or whatever.Cheers

Apologies if my comments indicated that the vehicle or van were overloaded.

I did not mean it to come out that way but my post was more to indicate how close to Maximum specification a combination may be with weight should a buyer select the incorrect vehicle.

My caravan specifications came from a 2018 publication from Jayco. Once again this is only and indication as none of us know what extra bits were fitted to the van.
I do note it has bicycle racks on the back and that there is no rear bumper bar on the van either.

In any case, whatever the cause, the topic may just manage to convince a potential buyer to consider more carefully his vehicle choice to be a safe combination when towing hence the topic title.

Rob Driver wrote:

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Apologies if my comments indicated that the vehicle or van were overloaded.

I did not mean it to come out that way but my post was more to indicate how close to Maximum specification a combination may be with weight should a buyer select the incorrect vehicle.

My caravan specifications came from a 2018 publication from Jayco. Once again this is only and indication as none of us know what extra bits were fitted to the van.
I do note it has bicycle racks on the back and that there is no rear bumper bar on the van either.

In any case, whatever the cause, the topic may just manage to convince a potential buyer to consider more carefully his vehicle choice to be a safe combination when towing hence the topic title.

-- Edited by Rob Driver on Wednesday 7th of July 2021 01:29:45 PM

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Whilst I absolutely agree with the words that I have highlighted above,while these little buzz-boxes are given tow ratings that cannot be safely reached,little will change.The fact that VERY few buyers seem to know anything about weights means that these buyers need to rely on being offered GOOD advice from the person selling them the car or the van.Call me cynical,if you wish,but I am yet to meet a salesman who is willing to risk his commission-based income by presenting the truth to any buyer.It's called "Smoke and Mirrors",and until the tow laws applicable to vehicles with a GVM over 4500kg are amended to include ALL tow vehicles,we will continue to see Ma and Pa Kettle,who have never owned anything bigger than a  Corolla,trading it on  an MUX or whatever,hooking up a 3000kg  ATM van,and blissfully setting sail on a vanning adventure.When it all ends in tears for them,as often happens,all parties are in the clear because no rules have been broken.Until relevant laws regarding tow capacity are amended, nothing will change,unfortunately.Cheers

Rob,I notice that you no longer have a Bent Axle? 

yobarr wrote:

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Rob,I notice that you no longer have a Bent Axle? 

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 Hahaha!!

bentaxlebabe has given it away yobarr.

She generally enjoyed participating but one member went beyond all decency with regard to the death of her cousin due to Covid and as such she has

*pulled the pin*

So mate you are just stuck with me now..

I trust you and I will continue to joust when our horses become restless or when a crowd gathers to watch us. 

With reference to your comments on unsuitable vehicles being used to tow heavy vans I must totally agree as this was the intention of my first post in the hope of newbies reading it and understanding the result of a poor choice of tow vehicle.

I can only hope that one day, as you have suggested that we have sensible laws with regards as to what vehicle can safely tow vans that are on the heavy side of the ATM.

yobarr wrote:

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With a GVM of only 2750kg,there is no way known that an MUX can safely tow 3000kg,in my opinion. The rear axle carrying capacity is a miserable 1600kg,and that axle already carries 1080kg at tare.IF you were silly enough to tow a 3000kg van,the generally accepted 10% towball weight would put around 430kg onto the car's rear axle,so already you are up over 1500kg with no allowance for weight of towbar structure,tools,luggage etc. 

 

And no allowance for those reasonably common inclusions called a driver and passengers! In my experience to date, even many of those smart enough to monitor ATM, GTM, TBM, GVM and tow capacity completely miss the rear axle loading, which seems to be the factor more at risk of breach than anything else when towing a two ton plus van. Perhaps a three letter abbreviation is needed to grab peoples attention, I proffer RAL!!!

 

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Rob Driver wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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Rob,I notice that you no longer have a Bent Axle? 

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 Hahaha!!

bentaxlebabe has given it away yobarr.

She generally enjoyed participating but one member went beyond all decency with regard to the death of her cousin due to Covid and as such she has

*pulled the pin*

So mate you are just stuck with me now..

I trust you and I will continue to joust when our horses become restless or when a crowd gathers to watch us. 

With reference to your comments on unsuitable vehicles being used to tow heavy vans I must totally agree as this was the intention of my first post in the hope of newbies reading it and understanding the result of a poor choice of tow vehicle.

I can only hope that one day, as you have suggested that we have sensible laws with regards as to what vehicle can safely tow vans that are on the heavy side of the ATM.

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 Hi Rob.Sorry to hear about about Angie's cousin,and the reason that she "pulled the pin".However,I welcome your support of my stance on the amendment of the laws regarding what weights vehicles can safely tow.At the moment,these laws are a joke,with some tow vehicles able to legally tow vans that are waaay too heavy for these vehicles,simply because these cars have powerful engines,and transmissions,that enable them to pass the relevant "tests" for these ratings.Perhaps,in the future,you and I can look forward to many more situations where we agree? Cheers

Toshmegosh wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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With a GVM of only 2750kg,there is no way known that an MUX can safely tow 3000kg,in my opinion. The rear axle carrying capacity is a miserable 1600kg,and that axle already carries 1080kg at tare.IF you were silly enough to tow a 3000kg van,the generally accepted 10% towball weight would put around 430kg onto the car's rear axle,so already you are up over 1500kg with no allowance for weight of towbar structure,tools,luggage etc. 

 

And no allowance for those reasonably common inclusions called a driver and passengers! In my experience to date, even many of those smart enough to monitor ATM, GTM, TBM, GVM and tow capacity completely miss the rear axle loading, which seems to be the factor more at risk of breach than anything else when towing a two ton plus van. Perhaps a three letter abbreviation is needed to grab peoples attention, I proffer RAL!!!

 

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 Hi Mark,and welcome to the forum.Although I was well aware of the "common inclusions" you mention,after some time on this forum,I have learned to keep things as simple as possible.However,it sometimes seems that I am fighting an uphill battle,as many members seem to believe that,as long as their vehicle is "Under my GVM",all is good.Rear axle ratings seem to go right over their heads,but as you say,this is "more at risk of breach than anything else".Another thing that many members seem to struggle with is the FACT that,if safety is of ANY concern,the weight on the car's wheels should be AT LEAST 10% greater than the weight on the van's axle group. We won't mention WDHs here,as they are also greatly misunderstood by many,and certainly are not the "cure all" that many believe them to be.You appear to have a good understanding of weights,so maybe we can look to more valuable posts from you? Cheers.