MPPT Regulator not to be used with Lithium batteries>
Monty10 said
07:07 PM Jun 30, 2021
Hi,
I have just purchased a Kings 120w Solar Blanket after reviewing the specs on the web site. However I was surprised to see in the user manual, when opening the blanket after purchase, that the solar blanket and MPPT regulator are not to be used to charge Lithium ion batteries. Stating that the MPPT controller is only suitable for Lead-Acid batteries.
Is this common for MPPT controllers?
Luckily I purchased the blanket to charge up a Companion 40Ah Rover Lithium Power Station with a built in MPPT controller to allow direct charging from the blanket.
Cheers Monty10
Whenarewethere said
07:16 PM Jun 30, 2021
A controller on the back of a blanket or panel is in the wrong place. Bypass it & install a controller next to the battery.
As a result you can avoid using a crappy controller.
iana said
07:27 PM Jun 30, 2021
I have an MPPT controller that is suitable for lithium. You just have to change internal jumpers.
boab said
08:30 PM Jun 30, 2021
the company that made my battery also made the controller the battery is lifepo4 the controller is mppt
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:54 PM Jun 30, 2021
Buy from someone else.
Cheers,
Peter
Tony LEE said
09:33 PM Jun 30, 2021
Certainly many controllers and chargers on the market that have no specific program to perfectly suit all aspects of lithium charging requirements
However given many drop-ins would be lying if they demanded special chargers, it is fairly safe to use them with a regular charging cycle. Not ideal of course
Jaahn said
09:34 AM Jul 1, 2021
Monty10 wrote:
Hi,
I have just purchased a Kings 120w Solar Blanket after reviewing the specs on the web site. However I was surprised to see in the user manual, when opening the blanket after purchase, that the solar blanket and MPPT regulator are not to be used to charge Lithium ion batteries.
Stating that the MPPT controller is only suitable for Lead-Acid batteries. Is this common for MPPT controllers?
Luckily I purchased the blanket to charge up a Companion 40Ah Rover Lithium Power Station with a built in MPPT controller to allow direct charging from the blanket.
Cheers Monty10
Hi Monty
The simple answer is that particular MPPT charger they have selected to sell is not suitable, probably because it is cheap and does not have adjustable settings suitable for lithium. If they say it is not suitable why argue ? I could not find any specs on the controller.
A quality MPPT controller has setting that can be changed to suit whatever you want to do. My advice is stick to a better quality unit. Indeed many cheap MPPT units are fake anyway and are really just PWM.
Jaahn
Whenarewethere said
10:27 AM Jul 1, 2021
Some settings on my Victron MPPT 75/10 Bluetooth controller.
Some settings on my Victron MPPT 75/10 Bluetooth controller.
Everywhere I look I find inconsistencies in default solar charge settings for LiFePO4 batteries.
For instance your Victron settings show Absorption 14.2V and Float 13.5V.
On another site Victron recommended Absorption 14.2-14.6V and Float 13.6V. (100ah battery).
Renogy recommend Absorption 14.4V and Float 14.4V. (100ah battery).
And yet another site recommends Absorption 13.6V and Float 13.5V. (100ah Battery).
My new Lithium Battery specs at Nominal Voltage 12.8V and Charge Voltage 14.6V. I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that Absorption should be 14.6V and Float at 12.8V.
How do you know what the correct settings should be?
My Epever solar controller shows default Absorption 14.5V and Float 13.8V.
Whenarewethere said
04:08 PM Jul 2, 2021
I don't have lithium, just switched it to lithium for this image so people can see some of the options. You can adjust all the voltages & allow for temperature etc for lithium, AGM & Gel etc.
I have gel, also the 75/10 is a spare controller as I replaced it with a 100/20 as it was not large enough for my 120 watts.
Jaahn said
07:21 PM Jul 2, 2021
DickO asked "How do you know what the correct settings should be?
My Epever solar controller shows default Absorption 14.5V and Float 13.8V."
My answer is always ask the battery manufacturer or look on their web site ! Not on a forum or the controller information.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 2nd of July 2021 07:22:42 PM
Whenarewethere said
08:00 PM Jul 2, 2021
I have never done any research on lithium voltages. Even all my Bosch tools I just plug them in & let Bosch decide what to do.
As far as my four 26AH Gel batteries I have simply left the MPPT on default. Bulk, one can see the voltage shift around quite a bit depending on the level of charge in the battery to squeeze out every last amp from the solar panels. Absorption is up to 14.4 volts.
I would not touch a cheap controller with two barge poles in series!
Mamil said
01:12 PM Jul 3, 2021
I wouldn't get too hung up about the exact voltages, most batteries can accept a range, within reason. The important thing about a Lithium specific profile is that it should have temperature compensation to reduce charging voltage when it's hot, and switch charging off when fully charged rather than hold the battery at float for long periods of time, because Lithium don't like either of these things and it will shorten their life. Quality Lithium chargers will incorporate both these features, whether they are mains, DC/DC, or solar controllers. That's what those selling "drop-in" Lithiums don't tell you because they want to make it easy as possible for you to buy their products, and their warranty will be long gone by the time the effects of a poor charging regime start to show themselves.
-- Edited by Mamil on Saturday 3rd of July 2021 01:16:08 PM
Monty10 said
05:03 PM Jul 3, 2021
Thanks all for the advice.
My power station has an MPPT controller built in so I can bypass the blanket controller so all OK.
Cheers Monty
Whenarewethere said
05:11 PM Jul 3, 2021
If you haven't done so, stick in an amp & voltage meter to see what's happening.
Monty10 could you tell us exactly what the lithium battery you have is. I think this discussion is pointless at the moment.
Alan
Whenarewethere said
08:42 AM Jul 4, 2021
He said which make & AH he has.
Maybe he doesn't want to do a teardown to see exactly what is inside.
Whenarewethere said
08:54 AM Jul 4, 2021
I just looked at the specs. The inbuilt MPPT solar controller as they say is only 5amps.
One wouldn't want to put proper solar panels on it as you would probably cook it.
My Victron can output up to 11.3amps from 120watts of panels which can output up to 137watts under perfect conditions.
Monty10 said
12:23 PM Jul 5, 2021
Hi Whenarewethere,
I can see the power station MPPT controller is rated at 5A, but isn't this what the controller does, limit the charge being passed on to the battery to protect it from overcharging.
A novice with 12 volt system so any advice is welcome.
Cheers.
Whenarewethere said
01:32 PM Jul 5, 2021
When I was designing my system I worked out 120 watts was enough for out needs & it still is & it has grown in capacity simply due to fine tuning.
I did a lot of research. 120 watts of panels depending on the efficiency has about 6.6amps output at 18volts.
Victron MPPT 75/10 controller states a maximum of 145 watts solar for a 12v system. Under run of the mill weather this is ok. Under perfect conditions with 145 watts of the panels I am using I could get up to 13.65amps out of the controller. But it cuts off at 10amps, so 3.65amps cannot be utilised.
But I think one would be risking damaging the 10amp charger putting 290 watts in & it only allows 10amps out on a 12v battery set up.
Could be wrong but I wouldn't do it.
So putting 120 watts of quality panels with up to 11.3amps potential controller output into a battery when a controller only had 5amp output could be asking for trouble.
Putting all the above aside. Isn't one of the key features of lithium to have a high rate of charging.
What is the point of having a maximum 5amp charge via 240v, 12v or MPPT into a 40AH lithium battery.
To me it simply says a crap product.
One would be better off buying the components. It's not that difficult to put them all in a box.
Whenarewethere said
01:43 PM Jul 5, 2021
One of my compatriots setup. This 100AH lithium prototype I reckon will outperform anything off the shelf.
I don't actually know & this was quite awhile ago & he has seemed to have vanished from this forum unfortunately, as there were some great articles from this person.
Anyway, you can knock up your own set up if you are prepared to put a bit of effort in. I have thought about it myself. All I need is a Victron battery. I have the rest of the Victron hardware.
I have to put in a bit more thought, a bit like my 3 ARB compressors, air tank & mooistmo trap, which all clip in, mainly for maintenance, but could easily transfered.
The same principles could be used for a battery setup, plug & play a Victron setup! My car solar setup is pretty much plug & play with every component. A bit more to set up with Anderson plugs but far more easily adaptable in the long run.
I don't know why the above image vanished. Attached a new version edited from my computer (battery sitting on my paper recycling bins behind my garage wall)
Another compressor clips in in front, also air lines & electrically.
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Tuesday 6th of July 2021 10:07:03 PM
Yes lve made my own awhile ago ( 280ah ) , l was just curious as to what cells were used in it
I've seen pics of your compressor before , looks good mate
and 4 100 Amp Lithium batteries with BMS inside which is a must have otherwise the batteries won't last!
Cheers from Frank
-- Edited by VK2FJW on Tuesday 6th of July 2021 09:52:25 PM
VK2FJW said
08:53 AM Jul 20, 2021
Monty10 wrote:
Hi,
I have just purchased a Kings 120w Solar Blanket after reviewing the specs on the web site. However I was surprised to see in the user manual, when opening the blanket after purchase, that the solar blanket and MPPT regulator are not to be used to charge Lithium ion batteries. Stating that the MPPT controller is only suitable for Lead-Acid batteries.
Is this common for MPPT controllers?
Luckily I purchased the blanket to charge up a Companion 40Ah Rover Lithium Power Station with a built in MPPT controller to allow direct charging from the blanket.
Cheers Monty10
A lot of people are going to get burned because they didn't do their homework on Lithium Charging.
Hi,
I have just purchased a Kings 120w Solar Blanket after reviewing the specs on the web site. However I was surprised to see in the user manual, when opening the blanket after purchase, that the solar blanket and MPPT regulator are not to be used to charge Lithium ion batteries. Stating that the MPPT controller is only suitable for Lead-Acid batteries.
Is this common for MPPT controllers?
Luckily I purchased the blanket to charge up a Companion 40Ah Rover Lithium Power Station with a built in MPPT controller to allow direct charging from the blanket.
Cheers Monty10
A controller on the back of a blanket or panel is in the wrong place. Bypass it & install a controller next to the battery.
As a result you can avoid using a crappy controller.
Cheers,
Peter
However given many drop-ins would be lying if they demanded special chargers, it is fairly safe to use them with a regular charging cycle. Not ideal of course
Hi Monty
The simple answer is that particular MPPT charger they have selected to sell is not suitable, probably because it is cheap and does not have adjustable settings suitable for lithium. If they say it is not suitable why argue ?
I could not find any specs on the controller.
A quality MPPT controller has setting that can be changed to suit whatever you want to do. My advice is stick to a better quality unit. Indeed many cheap MPPT units are fake anyway and are really just PWM.
Jaahn
Some settings on my Victron MPPT 75/10 Bluetooth controller.
Everywhere I look I find inconsistencies in default solar charge settings for LiFePO4 batteries.
For instance your Victron settings show Absorption 14.2V and Float 13.5V.
On another site Victron recommended Absorption 14.2-14.6V and Float 13.6V. (100ah battery).
Renogy recommend Absorption 14.4V and Float 14.4V. (100ah battery).
And yet another site recommends Absorption 13.6V and Float 13.5V. (100ah Battery).
My new Lithium Battery specs at Nominal Voltage 12.8V and Charge Voltage 14.6V. I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that Absorption should be 14.6V and Float at 12.8V.
How do you know what the correct settings should be?
My Epever solar controller shows default Absorption 14.5V and Float 13.8V.
I don't have lithium, just switched it to lithium for this image so people can see some of the options. You can adjust all the voltages & allow for temperature etc for lithium, AGM & Gel etc.
I have gel, also the 75/10 is a spare controller as I replaced it with a 100/20 as it was not large enough for my 120 watts.
DickO asked "How do you know what the correct settings should be?
My Epever solar controller shows default Absorption 14.5V and Float 13.8V."
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi DickO
My answer is always ask the battery manufacturer or look on their web site ! Not on a forum or the controller information.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Friday 2nd of July 2021 07:22:42 PM
I have never done any research on lithium voltages. Even all my Bosch tools I just plug them in & let Bosch decide what to do.
As far as my four 26AH Gel batteries I have simply left the MPPT on default. Bulk, one can see the voltage shift around quite a bit depending on the level of charge in the battery to squeeze out every last amp from the solar panels. Absorption is up to 14.4 volts.
I would not touch a cheap controller with two barge poles in series!
I wouldn't get too hung up about the exact voltages, most batteries can accept a range, within reason. The important thing about a Lithium specific profile is that it should have temperature compensation to reduce charging voltage when it's hot, and switch charging off when fully charged rather than hold the battery at float for long periods of time, because Lithium don't like either of these things and it will shorten their life. Quality Lithium chargers will incorporate both these features, whether they are mains, DC/DC, or solar controllers. That's what those selling "drop-in" Lithiums don't tell you because they want to make it easy as possible for you to buy their products, and their warranty will be long gone by the time the effects of a poor charging regime start to show themselves.
-- Edited by Mamil on Saturday 3rd of July 2021 01:16:08 PM
My power station has an MPPT controller built in so I can bypass the blanket controller so all OK.
Cheers Monty
If you haven't done so, stick in an amp & voltage meter to see what's happening.
Monty10 could you tell us exactly what the lithium battery you have is. I think this discussion is pointless at the moment.
Alan
He said which make & AH he has.
Maybe he doesn't want to do a teardown to see exactly what is inside.
I just looked at the specs. The inbuilt MPPT solar controller as they say is only 5amps.
One wouldn't want to put proper solar panels on it as you would probably cook it.
My Victron can output up to 11.3amps from 120watts of panels which can output up to 137watts under perfect conditions.
I can see the power station MPPT controller is rated at 5A, but isn't this what the controller does, limit the charge being passed on to the battery to protect it from overcharging.
A novice with 12 volt system so any advice is welcome.
Cheers.
When I was designing my system I worked out 120 watts was enough for out needs & it still is & it has grown in capacity simply due to fine tuning.
I did a lot of research. 120 watts of panels depending on the efficiency has about 6.6amps output at 18volts.
Victron MPPT 75/10 controller states a maximum of 145 watts solar for a 12v system. Under run of the mill weather this is ok. Under perfect conditions with 145 watts of the panels I am using I could get up to 13.65amps out of the controller. But it cuts off at 10amps, so 3.65amps cannot be utilised.
But I think one would be risking damaging the 10amp charger putting 290 watts in & it only allows 10amps out on a 12v battery set up.
Could be wrong but I wouldn't do it.
So putting 120 watts of quality panels with up to 11.3amps potential controller output into a battery when a controller only had 5amp output could be asking for trouble.
Putting all the above aside. Isn't one of the key features of lithium to have a high rate of charging.
What is the point of having a maximum 5amp charge via 240v, 12v or MPPT into a 40AH lithium battery.
To me it simply says a crap product.
One would be better off buying the components. It's not that difficult to put them all in a box.
One of my compatriots setup. This 100AH lithium prototype I reckon will outperform anything off the shelf.
I don't actually know & this was quite awhile ago & he has seemed to have vanished from this forum unfortunately, as there were some great articles from this person.
Anyway, you can knock up your own set up if you are prepared to put a bit of effort in. I have thought about it myself. All I need is a Victron battery. I have the rest of the Victron hardware.
I have to put in a bit more thought, a bit like my 3 ARB compressors, air tank & mooistmo trap, which all clip in, mainly for maintenance, but could easily transfered.
The same principles could be used for a battery setup, plug & play a Victron setup! My car solar setup is pretty much plug & play with every component. A bit more to set up with Anderson plugs but far more easily adaptable in the long run.
I don't know why the above image vanished. Attached a new version edited from my computer (battery sitting on my paper recycling bins behind my garage wall)
Another compressor clips in in front, also air lines & electrically.
-- Edited by Whenarewethere on Tuesday 6th of July 2021 10:07:03 PM
I've seen pics of your compressor before , looks good mate
This is what I have!
https://teambmpro.com/
https://teambmpro.com/products/high-amp-battery-management-system-batteryplus35ha/
https://teambmpro.com/products/odyssey-touch-screen-display-rv-monitor/
and 4 100 Amp Lithium batteries with BMS inside which is a must have otherwise the batteries won't last!
Cheers from Frank
-- Edited by VK2FJW on Tuesday 6th of July 2021 09:52:25 PM
A lot of people are going to get burned because they didn't do their homework on Lithium Charging.
https://www.jaycar.com.au/20a-mppt-solar-charge-controller-for-lithium-or-sla-batteries/p/MP3741
https://teambmpro.com/products/high-amp-battery-management-system-batteryplus35ha/
It is not a simple plug and play unless you use the required addons to control the Lithium charging rates!
Cheers from Frank