This is an extraordinary precedent and if the government is right, that it can do this, then of course it can do it again and that fundamentally changes what we all think and understand attaches to our citizenship.
----
We need to be cautious; whilst the health argument is a good one does it trump *everything* else?
eg. During the recent Victorian lockdowns would it have been acceptable for people who broke curfew to have been shot on sight?
How far should we allow government to go?
Whenarewethere said
07:41 AM May 4, 2021
Because quarantine only works when no one comes back with Covid.
In other words quarantine in hotels is a failure dressed up as the government is pretending to do something.
My sister who is an ex nurse has said from the beginning that Covid is an airborne disease & until the government reverses it policy on this fact we are all stuffed.
dorian said
08:01 AM May 4, 2021
I find it hard to believe that it took two cricketers to alert the Australian government that there was a loophole in its travel restrictions. IIRC, the same loophole existed last year when returning citizens circumvented travel bans from COVID-19 hotspots.
Whenarewethere said
08:14 AM May 4, 2021
Only cricketers are capable of keeping their eye on the ball!
Possum3 said
08:25 AM May 4, 2021
People tend to "Lie" when asked questions about any activity that has the potential to stop them doing what they want to do - It is selfish and almost impossible to prevent - so the only options are penalties severe enough to prevent recalcitrant activities.
With regard to "being shot" for breaching quarantine; Who amongst us would not shoot perpetrators of crime to save our wife, children, grandchildren. When the deliberate action/s of any person threatens the life of public at large, drastic action, even lethal force, can be justified. That is why armed guards man watch towers on prisons, Police and other law enforcement personnel are armed.
There has not been a declaration of Martial Law concerning illegal migration, merely the option of a penalty, albeit a severe penalty, for any recalcitrant that places the safety of an entire Country at risk (even Cricketers).
peter67 said
08:30 AM May 4, 2021
Well said possum.
DMaxer said
08:32 AM May 4, 2021
I was listening to a medico on the radio the other day who said that the reason hotel quarantine was 99.9 per cent effective was that 99.9per cent of the people undergoing quarantine were tested negative. He went on to say that when a positive case is quarantined in hotel accommodation it then spreads as the hotels are not proper quarantine facilities. We haven't seemed to learn much in the past 12 months.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Tuesday 4th of May 2021 10:17:46 AM
DMaxer said
08:33 AM May 4, 2021
I was listening to a medico on the radio the other day who said that the reason hotel quarantine was 99.9 per cent effective was that 99.9per cent of the people undergoing quarantine were tested negative. He went on to say that when a positive case is quarantined in hotel accommodation it then spreads as the hotels are not proper quarantine facilities.
We haven't seemed to learn much in the past 12 months.
Wanda said
08:45 AM May 4, 2021
I think that figure of 99.9%is is either wrong or exaggerated.
Here in Adelaide it is, and has been, a regular thing with announcements almost every second day about overseas traveller"s", in quarantine Motels, testing positive. And thats just little old Adelaide, I bet the other states are experiencing the same thing and probably more!
I am sure there are other"medico's" who may think differently, also, he is after all only 1 person giving an opinion!
But having said this I also agree that Motel quarantining is a joke.
Time this federal government did some about it
Ian
Whenarewethere said
08:45 AM May 4, 2021
I believe still to today no air movement audits have been done. This is simply stuff to do.
I think Australia's well thought out protocols is that Covid will go away & until then we do our best to have no one in hotel quarantine with Covid to have a 99.9% success rate.
A bit like a company I was working for. They had a 100% on time delivery rate because despatch were entering all deliveries as delivered.
Easy to pretend things are working.
bgt said
09:05 AM May 4, 2021
Keep in mind it's until the 15 of May. To let the system get ready. Many folks who wanted hard borders are now on the "Let's bash the government" band wagon. You can't have it both ways. And may I add that there's a touch of self interest with cricketers.
dorian said
09:24 AM May 4, 2021
Why does the system need more time to get ready? The Chinese built a fully functional COVID hospital in less than 5 days. How long does it take to build a proper quarantine facility, with essentially no sick patients, in an unpopulated area? Australia has had over a year to do this. I doubt that this will be the last pandemic that we see, so such a facility should be viewed as due diligence.
Craig1 said
09:39 AM May 4, 2021
Very rich for Mr Batsman to have a whinge while walking on a beautiful Maldives beach. He abandoned his mates to get that far, but must have known the risks when he left the country, " despite Govt Permission".
bgt said
09:43 AM May 4, 2021
Dorian the state's have made a meal of hotel quarrantine. The next two weeks should give them enough time to find new ways to stuff it up. Yes if this is the new world then all international travel should be via Darwin and their quarrantine site. Can you imagine the Billions of dollars involved in a new airport for ALL international arrivals? Billions in accommodation for ALL incoming travellers. Plus customs and immigration requirements. All sounds so easy doesn't it?
Plain Truth said
09:44 AM May 4, 2021
The majority of stranded overseas "Australians" have dual citizenship.They are over there on that countries passport.
When there is problem like now ,they scream they are Australians and want to get out quick smart.
But "born and bred" Australians,who wants to take out citizenship of another country cannot.
Under section 17 of the Citizenship Act requires people with only Australian citizenship to relinquish this if they take out the citizenship of another country.
dogbox said
09:49 AM May 4, 2021
i wonder how the person who said the government WILL HAVE BLOOD ON IT'S HANDS will feel when we go back into lock down and people start dying
because a lot of people for what ever reason felt the need to go overseas while we lived with the restrictions placed on us , boarder closures ,lock
downs, quarantine, social distancing ect ect . as i see it, they will be putting the rest of us at risk if they start coming back at a rate greater than our
health system can handle
-- Edited by dogbox on Tuesday 4th of May 2021 09:50:53 AM
the rocket said
09:51 AM May 4, 2021
if they had not made the decision to leave australia, there would b no problem. People might think twice now before leaving. good decision has been made.
bgt said
09:55 AM May 4, 2021
Let's do the maths. In 2019 9.2 million tourists came to Australia. About 25000 a day. Now those folks go into a specially built quarrantine hub. They are in there for 14 days. Over those 14 days another 13 x 25000 arrive. How big will the quarrantine hub have to be? Bout half a million beds. Some hotel hey! It's so easy to wave ideas around. But how do you do it?
Whenarewethere said
10:09 AM May 4, 2021
If we hadn't kicked people out, they wouldn't need to come back.
Some other countries had the ability to look at the long term & managed to support people not fortunate enough to have a permanent full time job.
There have been a few weddings & funerals etc. It is not difficult to manage this.
dorian said
10:20 AM May 4, 2021
I don't have much sympathy for those Australians who left the country when the pandemic was on, but how many left the country before the pandemic was declared and are still stranded? They would be on my priority list, assuming they were returning from low risk countries. I agree that the government is taking the most prudent approach in regards to India. It's a difficult choice, and I wouldn't be able to sleep well whichever way I chose.
dogbox said
10:21 AM May 4, 2021
who did we kick out?
did we not have restrictions on the number of people who could attend weddings , funerals to minimize the risks?
people could not travel interstate to visit sick/dying family /friends without doing their time in quarantine
Aus-Kiwi said
11:50 AM May 4, 2021
Indian to my knowledge have ONE passport ! They have to relinquish there old passport . When getting Australian citizenship!! Its only a two weeks !
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 4th of May 2021 11:52:11 AM
Mike Harding said
11:59 AM May 4, 2021
I find it fascinating that all the replies to this thread have focused upon the issues of quarantine; not one person has addressed the matter of our government effectively and arbitrarily revoking the citizenship of a large group of people.
If the French government tried this they'd have a rebellion on their hands but Australians, it seems, don't care what Draconian measures their government takes...?
dogbox said
12:03 PM May 4, 2021
the next problem we are going to have is the Olympian people coming back after coming into contact with with lots of people from other countries .
how long does it take for the vaccine to become effective will they be covered?
the cricketers that went to india are suppose to be in a bubble ,it would seem a few have burst the bubble.
Tony Bev said
12:18 PM May 4, 2021
To give my opinion, on this part of the question
whilst the health argument is a good one does it trump *everything* else?
Yes I do believe that health does trump everything else
Because of Covid-19, we are not living in normal times
We can all see that some leaders placed economy before health
America leader of the day, said that Covid-19 was a hoax Brazilian leader said that the economic disaster, (shut downs), would be greater than the health disaster Indian leader, allowed mass gatherings for religious, and political reasons
Our Australian leader has stopped flights from India, as he knows, that out quarantine hotel set up, is not good enough I say, good on our Australian leader, as he has put my health, before my economic wellbeing
bgt said
12:33 PM May 4, 2021
Mike the gov hasn't "revoked" anyone's citizenship. They have just put a 14 day hold on arrivals
DMaxer said
12:34 PM May 4, 2021
I think they are being a bit cunning with this one Mike. The Government states they are not refusing, just pausing, the return. This can be achieved by limiting the arrivals of planes and ships so that the actual citizen is not refused re entry, his mode of transport is. In addition, the States put numbers on arrivals and this indirectly affects the re entry as well.
Perhaps if they could show they were actors or others with a quid then things would be different for them.
Mike Harding said
12:52 PM May 4, 2021
bgt wrote:
Mike the gov hasn't "revoked" anyone's citizenship. They have just put a 14 day hold on arrivals
What would you characterise as the major aspect of citizenship bgt if not the right to return to one's country?
bgt said
01:02 PM May 4, 2021
Yes Mike I understand where you are coming from. I've always argued for any Australians to be allowed to return home. But this not a ban just a 14 day pause to get the house in order before any possible issues. If it was a permanent ban I to would be up in arms. We all know how some state premiers have miss handled their quarrantine.
The Age
This is an extraordinary precedent and if the government is right, that it can do this, then of course it can do it again and that fundamentally changes what we all think and understand attaches to our citizenship.
----
We need to be cautious; whilst the health argument is a good one does it trump *everything* else?
eg. During the recent Victorian lockdowns would it have been acceptable for people who broke curfew to have been shot on sight?
How far should we allow government to go?
Because quarantine only works when no one comes back with Covid.
In other words quarantine in hotels is a failure dressed up as the government is pretending to do something.
My sister who is an ex nurse has said from the beginning that Covid is an airborne disease & until the government reverses it policy on this fact we are all stuffed.
Only cricketers are capable of keeping their eye on the ball!
With regard to "being shot" for breaching quarantine; Who amongst us would not shoot perpetrators of crime to save our wife, children, grandchildren. When the deliberate action/s of any person threatens the life of public at large, drastic action, even lethal force, can be justified. That is why armed guards man watch towers on prisons, Police and other law enforcement personnel are armed.
There has not been a declaration of Martial Law concerning illegal migration, merely the option of a penalty, albeit a severe penalty, for any recalcitrant that places the safety of an entire Country at risk (even Cricketers).
I was listening to a medico on the radio the other day who said that the reason hotel quarantine was 99.9 per cent effective was that 99.9per cent of the people undergoing quarantine were tested negative. He went on to say that when a positive case is quarantined in hotel accommodation it then spreads as the hotels are not proper quarantine facilities. We haven't seemed to learn much in the past 12 months.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Tuesday 4th of May 2021 10:17:46 AM
Here in Adelaide it is, and has been, a regular thing with announcements almost every second day about overseas traveller"s", in quarantine Motels, testing positive. And thats just little old Adelaide, I bet the other states are experiencing the same thing and probably more!
I am sure there are other"medico's" who may think differently, also, he is after all only 1 person giving an opinion!
But having said this I also agree that Motel quarantining is a joke.
Time this federal government did some about it
Ian
I believe still to today no air movement audits have been done. This is simply stuff to do.
I think Australia's well thought out protocols is that Covid will go away & until then we do our best to have no one in hotel quarantine with Covid to have a 99.9% success rate.
A bit like a company I was working for. They had a 100% on time delivery rate because despatch were entering all deliveries as delivered.
Easy to pretend things are working.
The majority of stranded overseas "Australians" have dual citizenship.They are over there on that countries passport.
When there is problem like now ,they scream they are Australians and want to get out quick smart.
But "born and bred" Australians,who wants to take out citizenship of another country cannot.
Under section 17 of the Citizenship Act requires people with only Australian citizenship to relinquish this if they take out the citizenship of another country.
because a lot of people for what ever reason felt the need to go overseas while we lived with the restrictions placed on us , boarder closures ,lock
downs, quarantine, social distancing ect ect . as i see it, they will be putting the rest of us at risk if they start coming back at a rate greater than our
health system can handle
-- Edited by dogbox on Tuesday 4th of May 2021 09:50:53 AM
if they had not made the decision to leave australia, there would b no problem. People might think twice now before leaving. good decision has been made.
If we hadn't kicked people out, they wouldn't need to come back.
Some other countries had the ability to look at the long term & managed to support people not fortunate enough to have a permanent full time job.
There have been a few weddings & funerals etc. It is not difficult to manage this.
did we not have restrictions on the number of people who could attend weddings , funerals to minimize the risks?
people could not travel interstate to visit sick/dying family /friends without doing their time in quarantine
Indian to my knowledge have ONE passport ! They have to relinquish there old passport . When getting Australian citizenship!! Its only a two weeks !
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 4th of May 2021 11:52:11 AM
I find it fascinating that all the replies to this thread have focused upon the issues of quarantine; not one person has addressed the matter of our government effectively and arbitrarily revoking the citizenship of a large group of people.
If the French government tried this they'd have a rebellion on their hands but Australians, it seems, don't care what Draconian measures their government takes...?
how long does it take for the vaccine to become effective will they be covered?
the cricketers that went to india are suppose to be in a bubble ,it would seem a few have burst the bubble.
To give my opinion, on this part of the question
Yes I do believe that health does trump everything else
Because of Covid-19, we are not living in normal times
We can all see that some leaders placed economy before health
America leader of the day, said that Covid-19 was a hoax
Brazilian leader said that the economic disaster, (shut downs), would be greater than the health disaster
Indian leader, allowed mass gatherings for religious, and political reasons
Our Australian leader has stopped flights from India, as he knows, that out quarantine hotel set up, is not good enough
I say, good on our Australian leader, as he has put my health, before my economic wellbeing
I think they are being a bit cunning with this one Mike. The Government states they are not refusing, just pausing, the return. This can be achieved by limiting the arrivals of planes and ships so that the actual citizen is not refused re entry, his mode of transport is. In addition, the States put numbers on arrivals and this indirectly affects the re entry as well.
Perhaps if they could show they were actors or others with a quid then things would be different for them.
What would you characterise as the major aspect of citizenship bgt if not the right to return to one's country?
Along the lines of, not a tax..... but a levy!