Having just brought a "Life Style Village" house, my wife is keen to have solar panels installed. Looking into the information I have found on the net, things have changed. Apparently now the return is 3c per KW return from morning until 3pm, and from then till 7 pm its 10c per kw. The articles I have read are now suggesting aligning the panels to the west. However the problem now is that the sun is low on the horizon, and according to what I have read, the ideal angle for the panels is 37 degrees. I am aware that by using the household appliances during the day will off set the power usage at 38c per kw, but how possible is it to do that?

Solar installation companies en mass trying to get one to have them install the panels, suggesting possible fantastic returns, but what they don't tell is that they get a credit from the government known as STC's (small transmission company credits) and biased on a formula, the best return for STC's is 6kw installations. So the installation company get a credit of a fixed rate, but the user gets anything depending on the sun angle, and usage of appliances, coupled with the small if any returns.

I wonder how the installers would react if one suggested that the user gets the STC's, and the installer can claim power rebate over say 5 years!

Our house is partially shaded by a big tree, I wonder how many of the installers will say that this is an issue, probably saying that in the summer with the sun higher it won't be a problem, yeah right! 

A possible way to overcome the problem of shade is by installing "Micro" inverters to each panel. Bet none of the installers will want to go there.

Ah but the house does have solar hot water, you know cylinder on the roof. this seems a bit of a joke in its self, to get the hot water from the cylinder one has to run the tap for what seems an age, however before that the gas hot water system has kicked in. one has filled the basin to use after cold water has gone down the drain, but once you have turned off the tap, the slug of solar heated water is still in the pipe work, now the energy is being wasted.

Did I mention that having climbed into the roof cavity, I found none of the water lines are insulated.

After being in a caravan for 4 years, I find the waste of water a sin, so I hardly ever use the hot water, the water to the kitchen takes so long to get hot, I just catch it in a saucepan, and heat it on the induction stove.

The only time I can see benefit with our Solar hat water is when using the water for a shower, i.e. running for a reasonable time and continuous use. Any other time where there is a stop start in the flow i.e. washing machine, I am inclined to think the energy loss through the pipework off sets any solar gain, now that name rings a bell!

Hi Ianyou seem to be well-confused by the information provided to you up to this point.If you are happy to PM me your home address,I will be more than happy to give you all the help you might need,as I can measure your roof within 50mm,dependent on locality.Residential Solar is a minefield for beginners,with many in the industry knowing little about Solar,but trained to deceive customersI know this from experience.STCs are simply a rebate based in system size,and their value presently is $36 each.Forget micro-inverters.Solar Hot Water is a conjob,in most cases,but there are ways around that,too.Anyway,your call.If you would like help,just PM me your address and maybe a phone number.Cheers

bgt wrote:

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A lot of smoke and mirrors with solar installations. I can't make the maths work for me dollar wise. By the time the installation is paid for it could be obsolete. And then you start all over again. But I'm the only one in the street without solar. So maybe I'm wrong. Nah couldn't be.

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 Not true,Bruce.A GOOD Solar system usually pays for itself in well under 5 years.There is so much rubbish equipment out there that it is not even funny any more,which is why Solar often gets a bad name.People buy cheap junk but expect it to produce well. "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" My 6kw system produces close on $3000/year.I NEVER get a power bill,and generally I get $1000 back into my bank.And NO,I am not on the original high FIT (feed in tariff,or money paid by power companies for surplus production that is exported). Cheers

Our 80L hot water has a heat loss of 1.67kWh/24h Australia standard 1.7kWh/24h.

With a layer of Aircell + R4 polybatts (2 layers on top) + an outer layer of Aircell. The tank's heat loss is 0.95kWh/24h.

We have done the roof as well.

iana wrote:

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Yobarr where may I ask is the confusion?
What I really need is a big chainsaw and when know body is looking cut down that big tree. On the other hand the bird life in it is very nice.
The STC return for our panel installation is $1000, but nowhere do the installers say in their quotes, that the credit is going to them.
I think solar hot water would work, but using a different system where the heat energy is circulated to a ground based receiver, near to where the hot water is used. Several examples of what I am about are on the net, but storing the heat energy on the roof nah!

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 Ian,if you are happy to believe the rubbish you've been fed so far,there is little that I can do to help.The tree is not a problem.And the only Solar HW worth installing is an "evacuated tubing" system.In addition,might I suggest that if you're considering a 2kw system (how did I know that?) it would be far better to keep your money in the bank,as a 2kw system is good for nothing,and an absolute waste of time,roof space and money.Put on 6kw or as big as you can fit on your roof.The ROI is waaaay better on a 6kw than it is on a 2kw.Sorry I couldn't help you directly,but I will say that you'd be far better off to find someone who actually knows what they're talking about than to play 'investigators' with your own research,as there are myriad variables that you will have little chance of ever discovering on your own! However,I wish you good luck in your endeavours.You'll need it.Cheers

P.S Again I will saythe tree is not a problem,even if it is North of your house. North is another fallacy. Cheers.

Ian, get your Solar panels they pay for themselves in about 3 years.

We have 16 panels, 8 each East/West @ 300 w which is 4.8 Kw, the Sun hits the East panels at 4.30 - 5.00 am and the West panels are still in full sun at 7.00 pm in Summer.

A good quality Panel and a good 5 Kw Inverter are paramount, ours is mid range size wise and our bills have been $20 and as high as $80 in winter, from $300 plus a bill saving around $1200 a year.

Use all your main power items during the day.

Solar HWS are ok, we had one at a Cold Bridgetown with electric booster, but have installed a Heat Pump here and it only runs for 3 hours a day and is subject to STC's as well.

Go for a 4.4 to 5.0 Kw system.

Cheers Bob

bgt wrote:

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Yobarr you have made my point. There is so much BS out there that solar is a mine field for the average Joe.

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 Bruce,you are,of course,100% correct with that assertion,but there always are people who will not accept help because "I've done my research".          .                                           "There is none so blind as he who will not see"                                    Here are a couple of photos of results of using dodgy equipment,and Dodgey Bros installers.Done properly,Solar is great.Cheers

We installed ours 4 years ago , reason was simple ,Money in the bank gave us bugger all interest ,so we bought a 7KW ? system and a recycle aircon. We use it winter to warm some of the house and in summer to get it cool . Our bill for the last 4 month is zero , they owe us . I think if you have some spare money in the bank use it , use it or loose it .cheers

Recoup wrote:

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We installed ours 4 years ago , reason was simple ,Money in the bank gave us bugger all interest ,so we bought a 7KW ? system and a recycle aircon. We use it winter to warm some of the house and in summer to get it cool . Our bill for the last 4 month is zero , they owe us . I think if you have some spare money in the bank use it , use it or loose it .cheers

-- Edited by Recoup on Sunday 2nd of May 2021 03:56:00 PM

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 Great results Hans,as you have installed a decent sized system.The two big mistakes that people make with Solar are that they buy on price,which is guaranteed to end in tears,and they install a system that is waaay too small because they don't want to spend money.False economy,as a 6kw system becomes cash-flow positive from day one,if a loan is taken out,and you also are protected from price rises.It must be noted,too,that the rebate (STCs) is only available once for each property,so that when people finally realise they've been conned,and want to install a good system,they must pay full price. Many times I have seen a good quality 6kw system making 3 times as much yes,3 times as much as a poor quality 6kw  system on a neighbour's house.Same day,same aspect,same conditions.Return on investment is upward of 25% in the first year,and gets better as prices of power rise.Solar is a no-brainer.Cheers.

Yobarr for your comment.

As with the posted pictures, what is wrong with the 1st installation?, the third is clearly hail damage.

iana wrote:

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Whenarewethere, your hot water cylinder looks warm and cosy. But yes its all about restricting energy loss.

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 Hot water power usage is minimal,and if the HW is put on the back of the T11 meter,with an HW timer,all hot water is 'free'.Cheers

Recoup wrote:

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I just like to say , if you like to install a solar system , make it big enough to cover your needs , don't make it bigger because you get peanuts from the company. Check out your average daily consumption and go from there, cheers

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 The bigger the system,the cheaper it is per kilowatt.Economies of scale,and you won't need to worry about running the AC,or whatever.Cheers.

Don't forget the Energy Companies have a proposal up at the moment to attempt to either not pay for any export, restrict it, or even charge you for said export.

Go to ; AEMC.gov.au, look for " pending things". Then Item in question is ERC0311. Section 4.3 seemed to be the key to complain about. There are over 200 pages though. Sorry, not too smart with direct link

yobarr wrote:

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iana wrote:

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Whenarewethere, your hot water cylinder looks warm and cosy. But yes its all about restricting energy loss.

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 Hot water power usage is minimal,and if the HW is put on the back of the T11 meter,with an HW timer,all hot water is 'free'.Cheers

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 Living in a block of units one has limited space. The hot water system is in common space & shouldn't be there. If the other owners got nasty I can put it back up in the Unit. Unfortunately there is not enough room for a larger off-peak tank.

We have discussed solar for our block of units. But it is too complex, starting with the very old roof tiles. We would want to replace the roof tiles first so that's another $60k before we start on solar.

We went from $450 a quarter power bill, to $125, $90 of that is just the admin fee. Now we get 11 cents a KW, but the power we make out of the system goes into running the house during the day. Any left over, makes us average $45 a quarter. We have only a 1.75 kw system on the roof. It is pointing north. We run a efficient box R/C Aircond. about %50 of the time, and our ho****er, is set at 60 degrees, and is on a timer to run only for 3 hours off peak at night. We do have a wood stove, so, it is our cooking in winter and also our heating. We also have gas cooker/oven, and as well as the same in electric, so we do turn about on them in summer subject to mood. The gas cooks a better roast lamb in summer though. Alternative heating cooking( not electric) cost us only $400 a year. The solar system cost us $2000 8 years ago, and is about to be replaced as the 2 of the panels are failing ( Warranty by Origin). It has well and truly paid for itself. I did the math before, I went into it, and it was better for me to go with the 1.5 to 2 KW system then to get a bigger system. You really have to look at what power you use, and which appliances use the most power. We did also go for 4 plus Star appliances including white goods and converted to led lights, so this does help. The system has worked out well for us.

iana wrote:

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Yobarr for your comment.

As with the posted pictures, what is wrong with the 1st installation?, the third is clearly hail damage.

-- Edited by iana on Sunday 2nd of May 2021 04:19:30 PM

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 Massive losses from panels facing South East when there is a mile of room North West.The reason for this was simply laziness,and cost cutting.Tge meterbox on this house is in the South West corner,so the installers have saved much cabling,and time,by putting the panels South West.These are the things that give Solar a bad name.The second was a fire caused by cheap isolators,and the hail damage is a result of cheap panels being used. Solar is a complicated business,but unfortunately many in the industry have little idea.The stories I could tell about dodgey Solar installers,and their installations would,take me hours to tell.The biggest problem is 'price chasers' as well as those who say 'I've done my research.I know stuff'.In actual fact,they wouldn't know spit from clay about Solar,but to save face,they go ahead and buy El Cheapo.Graeme's comment about only 5kw per phase is not quite right,but few understand that either.There are many 10kw systems on single phaseyou just need to know how to do it,and many installers have no clue.Please can I stress that this is not a criticism of Graeme's comment,as he is obviously a highly experienced Electrician.Just for the sake of it,I have included more photos of 'Dodgey Bros' installations.Unconscionable conduct comes to mind.Cheers

iana wrote:

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I notice Yobarr that you have not commented on the PDF file I posted, "Energy Policy WA", maybe you didn't see it. Since sending you my address and email, have heard nothing, perhaps you didn't receive it?

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 Ian,sorry,but I am not interested in having to justify my comments.With residential Solar,I do know what I'm talking about,but if you prefer to believe the rubbish you've been fed by people who apparently know little,so be it.Good luck with your research.Cheers

Peter_n_Margaret wrote:

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The biggest savings from solar installations on domestic residences comes from the reduction of use of power from the grid. This becomes more relevant as feed in tariffs reduce.
Solar panels are now so cheap that it is a small imposition to install extra panels (without necessarily installing a larger inverter/controller).

North facing panels will collect most energy on a given day, but do not necessarily collect it efficiently when much of that energy is being used ie... first thing in the morning and last thing in the afternoon so it can make financial sense to face a significant number of panels towards the east and a significant number towards the west to accommodate those needs better.
It is not the total power collection over the day that becomes important, but when it is collected and when it is used.

If you have some sort of power storage, the optimum arrangement may well be different, but existing battery technology will never be a mainstay energy storage system in my view. They are too expensive and need replacement too often to make them viable unless you can be completely off grid, which will not be permitted in the areas currently serviced by the grid.
Cheers,
Peter

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Great post Peter,that shows that you have a thorough understanding of Solar.Good to see that you know North will collect will collect more power,but East and West collects far more usable power than will North,but try to explain that to installers who have been taught "North is best". Never use North if East and West are available,but with the right inverter, you can include North with East and West for panels in 3 directions.Very few installers know that,and I have had some interesting "discussions" getting them to do what they've been told! Your comments about batteries are right on the mark toothey're a con-job,in my opinion.Cheers

Small distinction Yobarr. Solar panels collect energy, not power. 

Cheers,

Peter

Ah, do the panels collect it, or do they just convert the energy from one form to another, its the "Accumulators" (Howzat), that collect and store the energy. Then again I'm no expert either.

Maybe it would be helpful, if someone would tell me why it is a waste of time just installing a 2kw system ?, and when the power authorities place these limits, are we talking about 2kw of possible solar panel output, or is it 2kw from the inverter into the grid?

I.e. more solar panels but a controlled output.