An opportunity for manufacturing jobs in Australia
Izabarack said
02:55 PM Dec 10, 2020
Maybe this thing with China is not all bad. Newspapers are telling us that China wants/needs our coal and iron ore for steel making. Well, why is Australia not doing some value adding and making the steel here then selling the steel to our former friends? When life gives you lemons, well, you know the rest.
No need to get political, just wondering if there is opportunity here.
Iza
Tony Bev said
03:08 PM Dec 10, 2020
Unfortunately, the easiest way to make this happen, Izabarack
Is to have our political leaders, put their shoulders against the wheel
When the first lockdowns came, and many were unemployed Prime Minister Morrison, said that the Government was not in the business of private enterprise (or words to that effect)
I agree with your idea, of having more industries in Australia
Sorry about pointing to the negative political statement
-- Edited by Tony Bev on Thursday 10th of December 2020 03:09:08 PM
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:16 PM Dec 10, 2020
We are making steel in Whyalla, SA. And the owner of that plant is proposing that that plant be run entirely from renewable energy in the future.
Electric arc furnaces actually produce better quality steel too.
When (not if) we get to having lots of renewable power, that power will be very cheap and we will see another "industrial revolution", just like cheap coal power caused the industrial revolution 200 years ago.
Many/most processes for the conversion of raw materials are big power consumers. The advent of cheap power will cause a major revolution in manufacturing and Australia is in the box seat to take advantage of it.
Exciting times and I expect to see a lot of it in my life time.
It is driven by economics and is happening right now despite political interference or consumer wishes.
Cheers,
Peter
Tony Bev said
03:25 PM Dec 10, 2020
I agree with what you say above, Peter
I also say that, (in my opinion), certain people putting their shoulders to the wheel, will make it happen quicker
bgt said
04:06 PM Dec 10, 2020
When they take the subsidies off renewable we will see the true costs of them. Australia will never return to manufacturing while our energy costs are so high. Basic manufacturing are huge energy users. We are cutting back our electricity use because of high and unreliable electricity. China knows this. They use our iron ore and coal to make the wind towers and solar panels that many believe are the answer. Well while China pollutes while avoiding the Paris agreement we sit here scratching out heads and butts wondering what happened. Well we are being conned into a fantasy green nightmare that is generations away.
The Whalla investor is a foreigner making money from subsidies. The bulk of the wind and solar farms are foreign owned. And why are they foreign owned? Because they know we are giving away money in the form of subsidies.
Our green "dream" is one of the major reasons we no longer have manufacturing in Australia. Building wind and solar farms in someone else's backyard isn't the answer. We have to ask ourselves what sort of an Australian we will leave the next generation. A clean green and broke country. Or a country that is independent and prosperous that will allow future generations to enjoy a life like we have.
Dreams are fine. But reallity is that sooner or later you wake up and discover that's all it was. A dream.
Whenarewethere said
05:45 PM Dec 10, 2020
When we take the subsidies off fossil fuels it will become a level playing field, over $20 billion PA.
bgt said
06:40 PM Dec 10, 2020
Subsidies on fossil fuels is an old tired argument.
Whenarewethere said
06:45 PM Dec 10, 2020
& I hope they go away.
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:57 PM Dec 10, 2020
Shades of horseless carriages and red flags.
Cheers,
Peter
bgt said
08:12 PM Dec 10, 2020
So if there is subsidies for fossil fuels why can't anyone agree on how much it is? Numerous reports have been published and everyone one of them come up with a different figure. And a close look at the vast majority of reports come from self interest groups. It's called bias. Just like those who promote green energy and "free" power from nature ignore the subsidies they get in their calculations.
Which ever way you slice and dice it fossil fuels have helped to make Australia an economical success unlike free energy that drains tax payer money into foreign pockets and delivers unreliable power.
Those promoting the rush into new power are those with no skin in the game.
dabbler said
08:19 PM Dec 10, 2020
The fact that it's an old argument speaks volumes bgt, and it certainly doesn't mean it isn't valid. Once upon a time, wages were the excuse for production moving offshore. Now it seems energy cost is the barrier. The truth is actually two fold with far too many people wanting cheaper goods without considering national and community interests plus far too many shareholders wanting as high a return as possible without regard to national and community interests. Members of one group often can't afford to think differently and members if the other group usually can't think differently.
Whenarewethere said
08:51 PM Dec 10, 2020
The owners in our block or units have all got 3 phase to their garages ready to go for when we get electric cars, installed a few years ago. One is thinking of getting an EV. I know 2 people with Teslas they love them & 2 other people with cheaper electric cars who are very happy.
Electric cars are simply coming full circle, but faster & longer range which will keep getting better.
Rob Driver said
09:43 PM Dec 10, 2020
bgt wrote:
When they take the subsidies off renewable we will see the true costs of them. Australia will never return to manufacturing while our energy costs are so high. Basic manufacturing are huge energy users. We are cutting back our electricity use because of high and unreliable electricity. China knows this. They use our iron ore and coal to make the wind towers and solar panels that many believe are the answer. Well while China pollutes while avoiding the Paris agreement we sit here scratching out heads and butts wondering what happened. Well we are being conned into a fantasy green nightmare that is generations away. The Whalla investor is a foreigner making money from subsidies. The bulk of the wind and solar farms are foreign owned. And why are they foreign owned? Because they know we are giving away money in the form of subsidies. Our green "dream" is one of the major reasons we no longer have manufacturing in Australia. Building wind and solar farms in someone else's backyard isn't the answer. We have to ask ourselves what sort of an Australian we will leave the next generation. A clean green and broke country. Or a country that is independent and prosperous that will allow future generations to enjoy a life like we have. Dreams are fine. But reallity is that sooner or later you wake up and discover that's all it was. A dream.
Pretty close to the truth bgt.
Whyalla is adjacent to Roxby Downs where, if our 4 year term leaders could actually serve ours and their country in the best manner then we would have a govt owned and operated power source supplying the power need to run the steel works and probably most of the rest of the country as well.
The solar farms that the owner of the Whyalla plant has built is there to protect the operation of the plant. During the massive failure of the power supply in 2016 the Steelworks was only 2 hours from having the ore harden in the furnaces and have the whole plant rendered useless.
Of course the solar farms both in Whyalla and Port Augusta give us all a warm and fuzzy feeling but in the case of Whyalla the steelworks rely heavily on the power from the grid where the eastern states are the main source of supply.
The rest of SA are held to ransom with power costs with the charges that grid supply charges.
The wind farms also provide warm and fuzzy but the life of a wind tower is very limited and all these farms are owned by overseas interests which are getting their warm and fuzzy from the wallets of all South Australians.
It could be so simple and if we do it in house it would be very economical..
Regards
Rob
Rob Driver said
09:47 PM Dec 10, 2020
Whenarewethere wrote:
The owners in our block or units have all got 3 phase to their garages ready to go for when we get electric cars, installed a few years ago. One is thinking of getting an EV. I know 2 people with Teslas they love them & 2 other people with cheaper electric cars who are very happy.
Electric cars are simply coming full circle, but faster & longer range which will keep getting better.
Absolutely,
And when they are plugged in and charging they are using power supplied by a coal fired power station.
If someone has installed solar then the panels are made with the use of fossil fuels.
Air turbines would be difficult if not impossible in a high density population area.
Regards
Rob
Whenarewethere said
10:53 PM Dec 10, 2020
Yes we will be using coal for now but at the same time we will be not using liquid fossif fuel so we will be ahead.
The embedded energy in the manufacturing of a windmill is approximately 6 months of a design life of 25 years. So 1/50 of its lifetime output.
Windmills are best placed near main transmission lines & I don't see any of them in Sydney.
High tension transmission losses are are 2% per 1000km so it really doesn't matter where you put them. There will be plenty of remote locations where higher average wind outweighs the slight increase in distance.
Put some on the southern tip of Tasmania and run a cable to the main land. Less than a 1000km. Easy!
Warren-Pat_01 said
11:36 PM Dec 10, 2020
Regardless of the arguments here over costs with either energy or labour - it isn't going to happen fast. The Australian Govt encouraged our manufacturing companies to invest in China in the '90s & they all bolted out of the country. All the white goods companies went, long term reliability went with them, & employment for our kids reduced dramatically. Steel manufacturing ceased almost overnight - all because we Aussies wanted cheaper goods & lots of them.
If you want good quality roofing material with "colourbond" colours lasting in excess of 10 years, you buy Bluescope Steel Colourbond. If you want a stripey, faded roof after 5 years, you buy the same material from companies that manufacture in China. It's not that much dearer to buy the Aussie manufactured material.
And on solar panels that so many are saying that this is the only way to go in the future - there is still one company building panels here. They are more expensive than the Asian ones. And what a number of people over look is what happens to the thousands upon thousands of panels that will end up in rubbish dumps in the years to come?
I always wondered what would happen if relations with China soured - there has been talk of a war over water - whether that is fact or fantasy, I don't know.
bgt said
08:40 AM Dec 11, 2020
Re subsidies. If you read the reports first you will see that none of them get the same figures. And more importantly none of them use the same formula or definition of 'subsidy'. It's like comparing apples with oranges. When they count how many oranges they have they also include the core of the apple. They include tax refunds as a subsidy. Yet other industries, including the green industry, get the very same tax refund. A good example are company vehicles. They include the tax refunds on fossil fuels that apply the fossil fuel company vehicles. Yet they ignore fossil fuel vehicles owned by green energy companies. They also ignore the fact that every other business also claims the very same tax refund. So the reports are all very selective. Created with an end goal in mind.
I grew up in the 1950-60's. I read many stories about how we would be all driving personal helicopters. How we would have driverless cars which hovered over the roads and follow magnetic strips. Well where are those dreams/promises? Talk is cheap. But between talking we have to eat. And having a good job gives us the money to buy our food. Without cheap reliable power we cant create the jobs.
Folks are mixing up dreams and aspirations with the reality of life.
dorian said
01:57 PM Dec 11, 2020
What company would want to pay a blue collar worker $100K per year to turn a spanner on a production line? Look at the current troubles with the CFMEU and remember what the factories were like when people like Setka were running the workplaces. My father was a factory worker, and I lean to the left of politics, but not so far left that I fall over.
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:07 PM Dec 11, 2020
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
The Australian Govt encouraged our manufacturing companies to invest in China in the '90s & they all bolted out of the country. All the white goods companies went, long term reliability went with them, & employment for our kids reduced dramatically. Steel manufacturing ceased almost overnight - all because we Aussies wanted cheaper goods & lots of them.
Having its global headquarters in Australia, over 550 employees and four manufacturing facilities, Seeley International exports to more than 120 countries around the world through its global distributor network. Together with sales offices in the USA, UK, France, Italy and South Africa, the company has delivered millions of installations around the globe.
The largest evaporative air-conditioning contract ever let in the world. All designed and manufactured in Adelaide.
Cheers,
Peter
Warren-Pat_01 said
03:14 PM Dec 11, 2020
I agree Dorian but it seems according to our current politicians we have to educate ourselves to get a good job with good pay! However they don't say how much that is! Is it $40,000, $80,000, $120,000 or more?
In the '80s, '90s we had the "thermal runaway" with wages under Hawke & Keating but then governments of all types increased their charges so much that the ordinary wage earner (including me) felt they were going nowhere in being able to keep a standard of living that was adequate. It was a vicious circle - one that had to end.
And at the same time the "China thing" began - which is where this discussion commenced.
bgt said
04:41 PM Dec 11, 2020
My first pay packet was $18.00 a week. I paid for rent, food and beer out of that. And life was good. Now the average wage in Australia is just shy of $90000.00. And it seems that's not enough.
Be it Chinese made. Green or brown energy. Working hours etc etc etc, it all comes back to our expectations. The problem is that when I started work I expected a warm bed. A full belly. And to get pissed on the weekends. Now folks want everything and they want it now.
If we put aside our differences and views and looked at what we really want then every thing would be just fine. But we all want more. We don't want to pay bugger all for it. The Chinese are only supplying what we want and are to lazy or idealistic to get for ourselves.
dogbox said
05:56 PM Dec 11, 2020
bgt wrote:
My first pay packet was $18.00 a week. I paid for rent, food and beer out of that. And life was good. Now the average wage in Australia is just shy of $90000.00. And it seems that's not enough.
Be it Chinese made. Green or brown energy. Working hours etc etc etc, it all comes back to our expectations. The problem is that when I started work I expected a warm bed. A full belly. And to get pissed on the weekends. Now folks want everything and they want it now.
If we put aside our differences and views and looked at what we really want then every thing would be just fine. But we all want more. We don't want to pay bugger all for it. The Chinese are only supplying what we want and are to lazy or idealistic to get for ourselves.
x2
all the chinese have to do is turn off the tap an we will be in deep do-do. how many people in aust depend on them for their income that pays for our lifestyle ? you might think you wouldn't be affected but you maybe surprised
Maybe this thing with China is not all bad. Newspapers are telling us that China wants/needs our coal and iron ore for steel making. Well, why is Australia not doing some value adding and making the steel here then selling the steel to our former friends? When life gives you lemons, well, you know the rest.
No need to get political, just wondering if there is opportunity here.
Iza
Unfortunately, the easiest way to make this happen, Izabarack
Is to have our political leaders, put their shoulders against the wheel
When the first lockdowns came, and many were unemployed
Prime Minister Morrison, said that the Government was not in the business of private enterprise (or words to that effect)
I agree with your idea, of having more industries in Australia
Sorry about pointing to the negative political statement
-- Edited by Tony Bev on Thursday 10th of December 2020 03:09:08 PM
Electric arc furnaces actually produce better quality steel too.
When (not if) we get to having lots of renewable power, that power will be very cheap and we will see another "industrial revolution", just like cheap coal power caused the industrial revolution 200 years ago.
Many/most processes for the conversion of raw materials are big power consumers. The advent of cheap power will cause a major revolution in manufacturing and Australia is in the box seat to take advantage of it.
Exciting times and I expect to see a lot of it in my life time.
It is driven by economics and is happening right now despite political interference or consumer wishes.
Cheers,
Peter
I also say that, (in my opinion), certain people putting their shoulders to the wheel, will make it happen quicker
When we take the subsidies off fossil fuels it will become a level playing field, over $20 billion PA.
& I hope they go away.
Shades of horseless carriages and red flags.
Cheers,
Peter
The owners in our block or units have all got 3 phase to their garages ready to go for when we get electric cars, installed a few years ago. One is thinking of getting an EV. I know 2 people with Teslas they love them & 2 other people with cheaper electric cars who are very happy.
Electric cars are simply coming full circle, but faster & longer range which will keep getting better.
Pretty close to the truth bgt.
Whyalla is adjacent to Roxby Downs where, if our 4 year term leaders could actually serve ours and their country in the best manner then we would have a govt owned and operated power source supplying the power need to run the steel works and probably most of the rest of the country as well.
The solar farms that the owner of the Whyalla plant has built is there to protect the operation of the plant. During the massive failure of the power supply in 2016 the Steelworks was only 2 hours from having the ore harden in the furnaces and have the whole plant rendered useless.
Of course the solar farms both in Whyalla and Port Augusta give us all a warm and fuzzy feeling but in the case of Whyalla the steelworks rely heavily on the power from the grid where the eastern states are the main source of supply.
The rest of SA are held to ransom with power costs with the charges that grid supply charges.
The wind farms also provide warm and fuzzy but the life of a wind tower is very limited and all these farms are owned by overseas interests which are getting their warm and fuzzy from the wallets of all South Australians.
It could be so simple and if we do it in house it would be very economical..
Regards
Rob
Absolutely,
And when they are plugged in and charging they are using power supplied by a coal fired power station.
If someone has installed solar then the panels are made with the use of fossil fuels.
Air turbines would be difficult if not impossible in a high density population area.
Regards
Rob
Yes we will be using coal for now but at the same time we will be not using liquid fossif fuel so we will be ahead.
The embedded energy in the manufacturing of a windmill is approximately 6 months of a design life of 25 years. So 1/50 of its lifetime output.
Windmills are best placed near main transmission lines & I don't see any of them in Sydney.
High tension transmission losses are are 2% per 1000km so it really doesn't matter where you put them. There will be plenty of remote locations where higher average wind outweighs the slight increase in distance.
Put some on the southern tip of Tasmania and run a cable to the main land. Less than a 1000km. Easy!
If you want good quality roofing material with "colourbond" colours lasting in excess of 10 years, you buy Bluescope Steel Colourbond. If you want a stripey, faded roof after 5 years, you buy the same material from companies that manufacture in China. It's not that much dearer to buy the Aussie manufactured material.
And on solar panels that so many are saying that this is the only way to go in the future - there is still one company building panels here. They are more expensive than the Asian ones. And what a number of people over look is what happens to the thousands upon thousands of panels that will end up in rubbish dumps in the years to come?
I always wondered what would happen if relations with China soured - there has been talk of a war over water - whether that is fact or fantasy, I don't know.
I grew up in the 1950-60's. I read many stories about how we would be all driving personal helicopters. How we would have driverless cars which hovered over the roads and follow magnetic strips. Well where are those dreams/promises? Talk is cheap. But between talking we have to eat. And having a good job gives us the money to buy our food. Without cheap reliable power we cant create the jobs.
Folks are mixing up dreams and aspirations with the reality of life.
Not quite....
Residential - Seeley International
And check this out..... Mina tent city - Saudi Arabia - Seeley International
The largest evaporative air-conditioning contract ever let in the world. All designed and manufactured in Adelaide.
Cheers,
Peter
In the '80s, '90s we had the "thermal runaway" with wages under Hawke & Keating but then governments of all types increased their charges so much that the ordinary wage earner (including me) felt they were going nowhere in being able to keep a standard of living that was adequate. It was a vicious circle - one that had to end.
And at the same time the "China thing" began - which is where this discussion commenced.
x2
all the chinese have to do is turn off the tap an we will be in deep do-do. how many people in aust depend on them for their income that pays for our lifestyle ?
you might think you wouldn't be affected but you maybe surprised