I'm always directing novice caravaners to Caravan Council of Australia for technical help - Colin Young has just issued a very interesting article on the state of the industry. It appears to be too lengthy to copy and paste but it can be read on their Facebook page
I really do think that all companies and organisations of substance should realise that not everyone has or wants an account with Facebook.
Whenarewethere said
01:56 PM Dec 1, 2020
We have never used facebook or twitter. Seem to get a few facebook messages to contact people. They are obviously 100% dodgy!
Possum3 said
06:08 PM Dec 1, 2020
I am not certain but I think a Link to a Facebook page can be read without being a Facebook member. (similar to any other link).
I did try to copy and paste the multi page document but is too large to copy to GN's.
JeffRae said
07:28 PM Dec 1, 2020
It can be read without having a Facebook account, you will get an overlay popup , but just click on "Not Now" and read on.
"Very pleasing was the exceptionally high number of enquiries from first-time buyers, requesting information on what to look for and what to be aware of when selecting a new van"
Looks like a lot of people take your advice Possum3
As the end of an extremely difficult and strange and hopefully never-to-be repeated year nears, it is prudent to analyse all of the prime recreational vehicle (RV) issues both good and bad that have occurred, and been brought to the attention of the Caravan Council of Australia (CCA).
Sadly, there are still numerous serious problems and all too often continuing that are badly tarnishing the image and reputation of the industry, and causing much grief to many caravanners.
Professional and ethical caravan and camper-trailer companies are being "tarred by the same brush" that the lesser-respected companies are using.
The horrible corona virus pandemic has certainly caused many severe hardships, due to all of the imposed restrictions and the interruption of business operations, but the resumption of "normal" lifestyle activities provides an excellent opportunity for the industry to work together to achieve a very high level of professionalism and credibility, and create a clean and positive image for the RV industry. Needless to say, the pandemic has also caused much disappointment and frustration for RV owners.
The CCA has been receiving the usual large number of calls and emails from caravan owners and potential-buyers. The vast majority of callers have experienced problems with their caravans, ranging from annoying minor faults to serious and dangerous defects. Most of the issues have been related to the usual Top 5, which are noted below.
Complaints were split fairly evenly between:
MANUFACTURER matters Design and Quality especially the long-time major problem regarding Ratings and Masses for both caravans and tow-vehicles and handling concerns on the road, and
DEALER (Supplier) matters regarding the information provided to them by sales-personnel when first discussing a possible purchase, the hassles of having minor faults acknowledged and rectified promptly, and the extremely stressful, lengthy and expensive process of having to take legal action when the Dealer simply refused to abide by the Australian Consumer Law (ACL) requirements when there were clearly major non-compliances with the van.
The extent of litigation needed to be initiated by vanners is completely unacceptable, and stamps a severe black mark on the reputation of the caravan industry. While some cases were taken to the various Administrative Tribunals, most were taken to Courts.
The experience in either case was very traumatic, time-consuming and undeservedly costly. Fortunately, in nearly every case, the action was resolved thankfully in favour of the Applicant (vanner) without a Finding (which would have become embarrassing public knowledge) having to be made, with a strictly-confidential Personal Settlement agreed upon.
Very pleasing was the exceptionally high number of enquiries from first-time buyers, requesting information on what to look for and what to be aware of when selecting a new van.
The CCA never mentions any Brands or Companies, but has assisted many potential-buyers with their free Buyer-Assist package, which provides among other things, Check-Lists for Evaluation of what they really want, Comparison of what different vans are available (as they inspect each Make & Model van), along with a detailed Pre-Acceptance Inspection.
The not-to-be-proud-of Top 5 some unfortunately with a bullet issues are:
1: Too many new, under-resourced, manufacturers and importers competing in a very limited, and highly-competitive, market:
It is obvious that many of the newer, and smaller, companies who have entered the industry in recent times, are appreciably handicapped by being grossly under-resourced in a number of essential areas - engineering, legal, finance, management, Quality-Assurance, marketing - and as such, have no option but to "cut corners" in a futile attempt to successfully compete with the long-established, well-resourced, highly-experienced, and well-known professional companies.
The number of problems and complaints against newer, and smaller, companies is significantly disproportionately high, in relation to the number of vehicles sold by them.
The caravan industry needs to protect itself, by insisting that the Government urgently introduces mandatory, comprehensive and fully-independent audits and assessments of all businesses involved with the manufacturing and marketing of caravans and camper-trailers in Australia.
2: Too many serious Non-compliance, Safety and Quality problems with subsequent complaints and litigation.
In a number of cases, there is an unfortunate culture of "get these things out the door quickly... and we will worry about (or ignore) problems with them later". Often there is no proper Quality-Assurance program in place.
Accordingly, there are no professional Work Instructions, Assembly Drawings, and Check-Lists. Consequently, especially with inexperienced production personnel, mistakes and inconsistencies frequently occur... and are not detected, until the owner inspects their new dream van.
3: Marketing personnel not educated in major Technical and Legal issues regarding caravans.
Many 'van owners - and potential buyers - have complained about the poor knowledge, and unprofessional conduct, by some sales personnel... especially at major Caravan Shows. Often the sales-person cannot, or will not, answer even basic critical questions, and in the worst cases, provides statements which at best, are ignorant and mis-leading, and at worst, are down-right lies.
Frequently, very little attention is given to the "intended use" of a proposed 'van... both the proposed travel plans of the potential buyer, and the suitability (Ratings, Mass, Power, etc.) of the proposed tow-vehicle.
4: Major systemic industry problem: Vehicle Ratings and Masses frequently grossly mis-understood... or simply ignored.
It is of great concern that many people continue to believe, and use, the hideously-incorrect "old husbands' tale" - or "equation" - that:
Empty Ball Loading = ATM Rating minus GTM Rating or GTM Rating = ATM Rating minus Empty Ball-Loading
This is completely wrong, wrong, wrong as there is no logical relationship involved whatsoever! It is like trying to compare apples with bananas.
The ATM & GTM are fixed "Ratings" allocated by the manufacturer - using an engineering assessment - in relation to the maximum-permissible "All-Up" & "Axle(s)" limits.
The Empty Ball-Loading is an "actual mass" - that must be measured - and is obviously applicable only for the empty (Tare Mass) condition.
The correct formula is, at any time:
Actual Ball Loading = "All-up Mass" minus "Axle(s)-Loading"
5: Serious Consumer-Protection - Non-Compliance issues with Dealers (Suppliers), especially regarding the rectification of Defects.
It is quite apparent that there is a significant lack of understanding of - and abiding by - the important fundamental legal requirements of the ACL (Australian Consumer Law).
The Product issues include: Fit for Purpose; Of acceptable Quality; As advertised or promoted; Safe and (fully) Compliant; and Free from Defects.
Many new caravans have an actual Tare Mass that is much heavier than the stated Tare Mass.
The true Tare Mass of a caravan is the "mass of the completely-empty caravan, as it leaves the Dealer (Supplier), fitted with all items that were stated on the Sales Contract.
There is a most-disappointing lack of technical knowledge by some Dealers' Sales Personnel along with questionable sales tactics, regarding their conduct with potential-buyers of caravans.
All too often, the word "intended" - regarding both the intended tow-vehicle, and the intended "use of the caravan" - is given no real appreciation of its importance.
Caravanners often report that sales-people - especially at Caravan Shows - are far too pushy, and do not have the best interests of the potential-customer at heart.
Naivety, along with "making up answers on the spot", simply not knowing the answers to reasonable questions, and grossly-exaggerating the features and benefits of a prospective caravan, are regularly cited as being "hard-sell" behaviour.
Stringent and prompt action needs to be taken by the relevant Government departments, when a consumer reports a serious non-compliance. Immediate remedial undertakings must be enforced - exactly as is mandated for motor-vehicle faults - with substantial penalties imposed for ignoring or delaying the rectification.
For far too long, the "culture" of a number of businesses has been to severely frustrate the Consumer, by using "all the tricks in the book" to delay having to rectify problems, and to have the matter drag on as long as possible, in costly and stressful legal procedures.
Hopefully effective immediate action will be taken to ensure that a new highly-respected image for the Caravan Industry in Australia is created, for the benefit of everyone
Part 2: Caravanner Issues & Part 3: Government Issues, will follow at a later date.
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Possum3 said
11:57 AM Dec 3, 2020
Thanks Cupie, as I said rather lengthy, it will be interesting to see what his next two parts impart, Part 2, Caravanner Issues, promises to be interesting
bgt said
12:45 PM Dec 3, 2020
Really there is nothing new in the writing above. These issues have been on going for years and years and are not unique to the RV industry in Australia.
The covid restrictions on international travel have simply amplified the issues. Naive buyers have always been a 'problem' and the influx of new 'naive' buyers has simply made it more obvious. There is also an unrealistic expectation from many buyers. Both new and 'experienced' buyers. Throw in the 'used car salesman' syndrome and you end up with many unhappy buyers, and sellers.
Gov regulations wont change much. The crooked salesmen will still exist. The naive over expectant buyers looking for a bargain with still exist. Put the two together and you are bound to have issues. Buyer beware!!
montie said
11:04 AM Dec 6, 2020
bgt wrote:
Really there is nothing new in the writing above. These issues have been on going for years and years and are not unique to the RV industry in Australia.
The covid restrictions on international travel have simply amplified the issues. Naive buyers have always been a 'problem' and the influx of new 'naive' buyers has simply made it more obvious. There is also an unrealistic expectation from many buyers. Both new and 'experienced' buyers. Throw in the 'used car salesman' syndrome and you end up with many unhappy buyers, and sellers.
Gov regulations wont change much. The crooked salesmen will still exist. The naive over expectant buyers looking for a bargain with still exist. Put the two together and you are bound to have issues. Buyer beware!!
And in my opinion in the minority.
The vast majority of caravan manufacturers and dealers in Australia are reputable and ethical but are unfortunately tarred with the minority brush. No matter what the industry, achieving 100% satisfaction rate is not possible.
I read from certain sources about the flood of litigation by unhappy consumers who have purchased Rv's yet when I search the courts database I can never find this alleged flood. Most reputable dealers and manufacturers will go to great lengths to resolve customer issues except where the issue becomes unreasonable in which case they may walk away.
Sometimes Consumers are their own worst enemy. They will flock to shows and buy a brand that nobody's heard of based on the great price from a backslapping salesman and scream blue murder when it goes pear shaped. When you buy a new car you don't go to some dusty paddock and buy from somebody you don't know, you go to the brand approved dealer. Many RV buyers seem to think they pay too much at a dealer opting to buy "direct from the manufacturer" at a show or elsewhere and then can't understand when it falls apart.
Then there are the "do good" consumer advocates pushing their own barrow with misguided criticism of RV brands or the industry. One such organisation was recently shut down by the courts and ordered to pay damages for defamation. When these people make generalised sweeping statements they should be forced to support those statements with facts.
There are hundreds of thousands of happy RV owners out there enjoying the lifestyle but we never hear them complaining, we only hear from the minority which is the case with most industries.
Just one matter that needs to be clarified....plated GTM.
Firstly let me say that every van compliance plate has a GTM figure stamped on it. The GTM is always equal to the plated ATM rating minus the measured ball weight. In my view it is not a rating rather a calculation. The important ratings are ATM and Axle Group Rating and you cannot legally exceed either of these. They are not calculations rather maximum ratings based on engineering data of the chassis or van manufacturer. It is not IMO illegal to exceed the GTM figure so long as you do not exceed ATM or AGR whilst doing so.
In fact there is no legal requirement for a van manufacturer to stamp a GTM figure at all. The ATM and AGR ratings must be stamped on the compliance plate or on the chassis.
dogbox said
01:04 PM Dec 7, 2020
due to lack of supply and lots of demand we might find manufactures rushing to keep up with orders an cut a few corners to get their share of the market
-- Edited by dogbox on Monday 7th of December 2020 08:28:30 PM
montie said
02:47 PM Dec 7, 2020
dogbox wrote:
due to lack of supply a lots of demand we might find manufactures rushing to keep up with orders an cut a few corners to get their share of the market
The supply issue is caused by lack of supply of components most of which comes from China. Given our shaky trade relationship with China at the moment it is not out of the question for our Govt to start putting tariffs on these components which will increase prices.
Cupie said
06:16 PM Dec 7, 2020
montie wrote:
dogbox wrote:
due to lack of supply a lots of demand we might find manufactures rushing to keep up with orders an cut a few corners to get their share of the market
The supply issue is caused by lack of supply of components most of which comes from China. Given our shaky trade relationship with China at the moment it is not out of the question for our Govt to start putting tariffs on these components which will increase prices.
When I studied Economics decades ago, the function of Tariffs was to protect local industry. So the imposition of Tariffs might lead to more local content & local jobs LOL. Or it might not, 'cause there are so called 'free trade agreements' in place that prevent protective Tariffs (and subsidies). All a load of crap IMHO.
montie said
06:52 PM Dec 7, 2020
Cupie wrote:
montie wrote:
dogbox wrote:
due to lack of supply a lots of demand we might find manufactures rushing to keep up with orders an cut a few corners to get their share of the market
The supply issue is caused by lack of supply of components most of which comes from China. Given our shaky trade relationship with China at the moment it is not out of the question for our Govt to start putting tariffs on these components which will increase prices.
When I studied Economics decades ago, the function of Tariffs was to protect local industry. So the imposition of Tariffs might lead to more local content & local jobs LOL. Or it might not, 'cause there are so called 'free trade agreements' in place that prevent protective Tariffs (and subsidies). All a load of crap IMHO.
Politician John Button decided in the 80's that he was going to shake up the car manufacturing industry and make them more efficient. His first move was to reduce tariffs on imported cars. That will shake them up he said...get them more competitive and efficient....don't think his plan worked in hindsight!
I'm always directing novice caravaners to Caravan Council of Australia for technical help - Colin Young has just issued a very interesting article on the state of the industry. It appears to be too lengthy to copy and paste but it can be read on their Facebook page
Caravan Council of Australia | Facebook
I really do think that all companies and organisations of substance should realise that not everyone has or wants an account with Facebook.
We have never used facebook or twitter. Seem to get a few facebook messages to contact people. They are obviously 100% dodgy!
I did try to copy and paste the multi page document but is too large to copy to GN's.
It can be read without having a Facebook account, you will get an overlay popup , but just click on "Not Now" and read on.
"Very pleasing was the exceptionally high number of enquiries from first-time buyers, requesting information on what to look for and what to be aware of when selecting a new van"
Looks like a lot of people take your advice Possum3
Is this the article that you wanted to share ...
................................................................................................................................
The covid restrictions on international travel have simply amplified the issues. Naive buyers have always been a 'problem' and the influx of new 'naive' buyers has simply made it more obvious. There is also an unrealistic expectation from many buyers. Both new and 'experienced' buyers. Throw in the 'used car salesman' syndrome and you end up with many unhappy buyers, and sellers.
Gov regulations wont change much. The crooked salesmen will still exist. The naive over expectant buyers looking for a bargain with still exist. Put the two together and you are bound to have issues. Buyer beware!!
And in my opinion in the minority.
The vast majority of caravan manufacturers and dealers in Australia are reputable and ethical but are unfortunately tarred with the minority brush. No matter what the industry, achieving 100% satisfaction rate is not possible.
I read from certain sources about the flood of litigation by unhappy consumers who have purchased Rv's yet when I search the courts database I can never find this alleged flood. Most reputable dealers and manufacturers will go to great lengths to resolve customer issues except where the issue becomes unreasonable in which case they may walk away.
Sometimes Consumers are their own worst enemy. They will flock to shows and buy a brand that nobody's heard of based on the great price from a backslapping salesman and scream blue murder when it goes pear shaped. When you buy a new car you don't go to some dusty paddock and buy from somebody you don't know, you go to the brand approved dealer. Many RV buyers seem to think they pay too much at a dealer opting to buy "direct from the manufacturer" at a show or elsewhere and then can't understand when it falls apart.
Then there are the "do good" consumer advocates pushing their own barrow with misguided criticism of RV brands or the industry. One such organisation was recently shut down by the courts and ordered to pay damages for defamation. When these people make generalised sweeping statements they should be forced to support those statements with facts.
There are hundreds of thousands of happy RV owners out there enjoying the lifestyle but we never hear them complaining, we only hear from the minority which is the case with most industries.
https://www.fullrangecamping.com.au/the-status-of-the-caravan-industry-in-australia-part-1-manufacturer-dealer-supplier-issues/
Just one matter that needs to be clarified....plated GTM.
Firstly let me say that every van compliance plate has a GTM figure stamped on it. The GTM is always equal to the plated ATM rating minus the measured ball weight. In my view it is not a rating rather a calculation. The important ratings are ATM and Axle Group Rating and you cannot legally exceed either of these. They are not calculations rather maximum ratings based on engineering data of the chassis or van manufacturer. It is not IMO illegal to exceed the GTM figure so long as you do not exceed ATM or AGR whilst doing so.
In fact there is no legal requirement for a van manufacturer to stamp a GTM figure at all. The ATM and AGR ratings must be stamped on the compliance plate or on the chassis.
-- Edited by dogbox on Monday 7th of December 2020 08:28:30 PM
The supply issue is caused by lack of supply of components most of which comes from China. Given our shaky trade relationship with China at the moment it is not out of the question for our Govt to start putting tariffs on these components which will increase prices.
When I studied Economics decades ago, the function of Tariffs was to protect local industry. So the imposition of Tariffs might lead to more local content & local jobs LOL. Or it might not, 'cause there are so called 'free trade agreements' in place that prevent protective Tariffs (and subsidies). All a load of crap IMHO.
Politician John Button decided in the 80's that he was going to shake up the car manufacturing industry and make them more efficient. His first move was to reduce tariffs on imported cars. That will shake them up he said...get them more competitive and efficient....don't think his plan worked in hindsight!