For just over an hour on Sunday, October 11, 100 per cent of energy demand was provided by solar panels alone.
boab said
01:41 PM Oct 25, 2020
and then the sun went down
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:34 PM Oct 25, 2020
boab wrote:
and then the sun went down
Always a knocker? Some pumped storage will easily fix that.
Cheers,
Peter
Bicyclecamper said
02:37 PM Oct 25, 2020
Also wave power generation, would be good, it is forever
boab said
03:53 PM Oct 25, 2020
not a knocker i have invested in solar for our house also free camp and rely on solar just a fact when there is no sun there is no solar
Peter_n_Margaret said
05:03 PM Oct 25, 2020
boab wrote:
not a knocker i have invested in solar for our house also free camp and rely on solar just a fact when there is no sun there is no solar
Solar power that is stored in another form is still solar power from my perspective.
Our motorhome is solar powered. We store some of that power in batteries for when the sun does not shine.
For grid systems we need power storage too, either pumped hydro or hydrogen or others. Batteries are not the best solution long term because they are expensive and wear out fairly quickly although SAs "big battery" has been a huge success financially because they fill them with cheap power when we have excess wind and solar and then we sell it to Victoria when the spot prices are extremely high before the Vics can crank up their coal. As a result, they are increasing the battery's size by 50%.
The other feature our grids need is "variable loads" in addition to pumped storage. We have a very power hungry desalination plant in Adelaide. They consider it "base load" when they need to run it, which is pretty stupid. Instead, it should be powered every time we have excess solar or wind power and turned off when renewable power is in short supply.
It is not rocket science, but it does need different thinking and the power authorities are slow on the uptake.
Cheers,
Peter
Aus-Kiwi said
09:17 PM Oct 25, 2020
They DONT tell you they run large diesel generators !
Aussie1 said
10:38 AM Oct 26, 2020
Sun out, solar good. Sun not out, generator good. Easy peasy. Works for us.
dabbler said
11:38 AM Oct 26, 2020
Almost every state have fast response diesel or gas generators Aus-Kiwi. It's no secret and they have been available in NSW and Qld for decades. They provide a small percentage of total power to grids and it's predicted most will become redundant when sufficient stored energy mechanisms are developed. Only the renewables nay-sayers make a big deal of the point really.
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:14 PM Oct 26, 2020
Aussie1 wrote:
Sun out, solar good. Sun not out, generator good. Easy peasy. Works for us.
Even in winter our solar generates more than all of our power requirements both in the motorhome and at home.
Have not carried or needed a generator for 20 years.
I expect that some time in the not too distant future portable generators will be banned due to their uncontrolled pollution levels.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Monday 26th of October 2020 12:16:22 PM
dorian said
03:07 PM Oct 26, 2020
Bicyclecamper wrote:
Also wave power generation, would be good, it is forever
Wrecked Oceanlinx generator to stay put offshore at Carrickalinga as partial removal is delayed:
Removal of a wrecked wave energy generator stranded off a popular South Australian seaside holiday town has been delayed yet again, the local ratepayers group has said, six years after the project was sunk.
The 3,000-tonne structure was being towed from Port Adelaide to Port MacDonnell in March 2014 when it started listing due to damaged air bags.
Some four years previous, a different Oceanlinx generator sank offshore at Port Kembla, New South Wales, when it broke free from its pylons during rough seas.
Sun out, solar good. Sun not out, generator good. Easy peasy. Works for us.
Even in winter our solar generates more than all of our power requirements both in the motorhome and at home.
Have not carried or needed a generator for 20 years.
I expect that some time in the not too distant future portable generators will be banned due to their uncontrolled pollution levels.
Cheers,
Peter
Oh well, until that day arrives (and I don't believe it will happen. Probably more chance of banning folks opinions) I shall continue with my "easy peasy" method
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Monday 26th of October 2020 12:16:22 PM
boab said
05:08 PM Oct 26, 2020
Aussie1 I am with you Peter is set up for his requirements and thats good i cant see any state with base load power collected from the sun and wind to replace fossil fuels any time soon wave and tidal generated power sounds good but for some reason governments dont want to support it Carnegie energy have been trialing wave power for years and still cant convince those with the dollars to help them. Any one can set a van up to run solely on solar as peter has if they wish to spend the money. in my case i cant justify the outlay for the month or so i am camping so i will stick with my solar and genset. i also produce a lot more electricity from my house panels but still rely on grid base load power at night because i dont have batteries on the house
Mamil said
10:58 PM Oct 28, 2020
boab wrote:Wave and tidal generated power sounds good but for some reason governments don't want to support it. Carnegie energy have been trialling wave power for years and still cant convince those with the dollars to help them.
Carnegie has gone through $200 million of money from shareholders and various governments over the last 15 years, including the French, Irish, and our own Government who gave them $15 mil., so it's not through lack of financial 'help'. However, they still haven't been able to deliver a scalable and workable solution, so it would seem wave energy is a tougher nut to crack than solar and wind.
-- Edited by Mamil on Wednesday 28th of October 2020 11:44:44 PM
boab said
01:47 PM Oct 29, 2020
yep but it works when there is no wind and when the sun goes down
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:35 PM Oct 29, 2020
There is also potential for tidal power generation. The Kimberley area in WA has tides up to 11m. Those who have been to Talbot Bay and seen the 'Horizontal waterfalls' get to see a tiny example of the forces involved.
The future will see examples of all of these generation opportunities. Some will become main stream, some won't.
When that happens, energy will become so cheap that we will see a new industrial revolution. We will also see the price of energy do what the cost of mobile phone calls did. Think back to the cost of mobile phone calls 20 or 30 years ago. Who would have thought?
There will be a daily supply charge and the electricity will be free. No one will care how much you use, like no one cares now how many phone calls you make.
Exciting times.
Cheers,
Peter
Warren-Pat_01 said
04:42 PM Oct 29, 2020
And my brother-in-law in Adelaide REALLY ENJOYS hot summer nights with no airconditioning, power for fans due to that they call "Brown outs" - all at the whim of the electricity supplier!
In my early days working on the East-West microwave system (from Port Pirie in SA to Northam in WA), we used town power where it was available, 2kw wind & diesel generators where there was nothing. Until the newer power hungry digital radio systems were installed this combination worked well. Often some sites would go for nearly a month before the diesel generators were required to start!
For those who know where Fowlers Bay is (& some other sites in the area), often the governor would fail on the wind gen due to corrosion & we'd arrive on site to find the wind gen totally destroyed - nose cone & governor on the ground, one blade wrapped around the tower, another over the fence!!
One Christmas Day I attended Wirrulla (east of Ceduna) - it was very hot, windy & dusty. The batteries were literally "cooking with wind". I had to give them a spell by applying the wind generator brake - releasing it before going home.
When the digital equipt was installed, the diesel generators ran 24/7! And that is the main reason fibre optic replaced radio systems, capacity was another.
Sea power has been mentioned above - bring it on!! But how do you install it? Maintain it? Everything would have to be made from stainless steel (which is brittle) or aluminium - then you get corrosion between dissimilar metals & then the cost!!
Lots of investigation needs to be done before we can say we've got the answers for the future.
bgt said
07:30 PM Nov 2, 2020
This debate has been going on for years. And we are no closer to being powered by renewables.
Wind don't blow, no power.
Sun don't shine, no power.
Tide doesn't run all day, no power.
Waves aren't reliable, no power.
And on and on it goes. Lots of dreaming. Lots of promises. Regardless you will always need dispatchable power. Coal, gas, nuclear, whatever.
And then there's the new grid to get all this power to the consumers. No one counts the capital required. "Oh renewables are free".
And before someone mentions batteries tell me why they can't make a mobile phone battery that last more than one or two days? A phone battery. Not a battery to run a town or a smelter. A bloody phone.
And when I get in my motorhome to explore mother natures beauty all I see is bloody wind towers on the horizon. Or solar farms.
When they build the promised batteries and build some wind towers in the cities come and talk to me about renewables and utopia.
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:57 PM Nov 2, 2020
bgt wrote:
This debate has been going on for years. And we are no closer to being powered by renewables.
There is also potential for tidal power generation. The Kimberley area in WA has tides up to 11m. Those who have been to Talbot Bay and seen the 'Horizontal waterfalls' get to see a tiny example of the forces involved. The future will see examples of all of these generation opportunities. Some will become main stream, some won't. When that happens, energy will become so cheap that we will see a new industrial revolution. We will also see the price of energy do what the cost of mobile phone calls did. Think back to the cost of mobile phone calls 20 or 30 years ago. Who would have thought? There will be a daily supply charge and the electricity will be free. No one will care how much you use, like no one cares now how many phone calls you make. Exciting times. Cheers, Peter
Well this has certainly surprised me and probably others as well.
Lets destroy a pristine area in the Kimberley or for that matter anywhere else there may be tidal movement suitable for power generation but not tolerate the use of a Honda 2kva Generator for a couple of hours at a camp site.
Even with a daily / weekly / monthly supply charge electricity will NEVER BE FREE.
As with Warren above, we too have relatives in SA and they certainly enjoy coming home from work to a system designed Brown Out. Extremely enjoyable when the day temp has been in the high 30s but they do have that warm and fuzzy feeling that their electricity bill will be around 20% higher than any other state.
I would suggest not getting too wrapped up in exciting times until we come up with a method of power generation that is proven overseas, is clean, its resource is readily available in parts of Australia and it is funded and operated by the government so as to keep the greedy grubby little fingers of private enterprise out of the power money box. Another clue would be that this resource is readily available in SA.
My tin hat is now firmly affixed to my head so fire away.
Regards
Rob
bgt said
08:57 AM Nov 3, 2020
So one hole in the ground digging out coal plus one coal fired power station is uglier than thousands of solar panel on good farm land and thousands of wind towers on the horizon. Greenies are happy to destroy mother natures beauty so long as it's not in downtown near their coffee shop.
Has anyone here driven from LA to LV? Through Palm Springs. Along a road that for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and bloody miles every square inch of ground is covered by wind towers. So that's the future is it? And anyone traveling that road will tell you that most of those towers are now out of service. Broken down. Collecting rust and dust. That's what everyone wants is it?
Yes lets get cleaner energy. But not this made rush to destroy nature when we pretend we are saving nature.
Peter, SA quotes all sorts of magical figures. If they are so good ask them to cut the Heywood connector. While your at it explain to my inlaws why they have 1 or 2 blackouts a week in the Mount Gambier area. Explain why Lake Bonny was once a bird haven and a beauty spot and now is nothing but a forest of wind towers. While you're at it tell me how your OKA will work on battery power. How many miles to the battery? Don't tell others what they should be doing while ignoring your own advice.
Follow the money. Look at who is making money out of this new green revolution. And if you do follow that trail you will see profit comes way before the environment. But no one want to know that side of the story.
There is none so blind as those who can't see!
Aussie1 said
09:41 AM Nov 3, 2020
The only time electricity will be "almost free' is when we wake up and go to Nuclear Power. Very available, cheap and very very clean. Pass over your tin hat please bentaxlebabe !! I think it's about to become a bumpy ride.
Rob Driver said
10:06 AM Nov 3, 2020
Aussie1 wrote:
The only time electricity will be "almost free' is when we wake up and go to Nuclear Power. Very available, cheap and very very clean. Pass over your tin hat please bentaxlebabe !! I think it's about to become a bumpy ride.
Tightened the saddle straps and holding on Aussie 1.
Jokes aside, SA is in the box seat. All they need is a political party that builds the power generator at Roxby Downs and then supplies the grid but in reverse... Charge the states wanting access and subsidise SA, particularly in the industrial area to rebuild that state as a manufacturing hub like it was in years gone by.
Solar farms and wind farms are slowly but surely proving themselves not to be as sustainable as those with green attitudes would like to believe.
Just imagine the Green Revolt that would take place if a government of our country want to build a Snow Mountains Scheme today.
It is the cost of these pie in the sky systems that is causing financial grief for younger Australians.
We have the resource so why not use it.
Regards
Rob
bgt said
10:58 AM Nov 3, 2020
bentaxlebabe you're spot on. Those promoting the 'green' future always avoid the 'cost' question.
SA is one big experiment. With very high power costs and black and brown outs. Yeah sure they are somewhat green but at what cost? What did the secret Musk batteries cost? (I owned a RAM in the USA from 2013 to 2018. It would get 4mpg up some hills and 99mpg down some hills. So, just like those promoting green power, I tell every I can get 99mpg out of my 400hp RAM. Not a lie. Just not the full picture).
No one mentions the power needed to make the concrete for the wind tower base. Or the power to make the steel for the towers and blades. Which we once made in Australia but are now made over seas in a country who avoids meeting any targets. China gets rich while we experiment at OUR cost. And what happens to the scrap when these you beaut towers and solar panels meet their use by date. And not even a whisper about disposing of Musk batteries when they go kaput.
I agree. Roxby Downs is sitting on a fortune if a politician or two had the guts to put polls and elections to one side.
The sad thing is that 'science' is always thrown into the debate. The 'science' that suits 'our' argument.
beiffe said
11:40 AM Nov 3, 2020
Why not build a Nuclear Power Plant in each capital city to supply each state.
Close to the main usage and away from the food producing areas.
Save mines and gas fracking etc so we would have more area for food. Just have to keep the areas in Australian hands.
Peter_n_Margaret said
01:22 PM Nov 3, 2020
I used to be a nuclear power supporter, but I reckon there are better alternatives now.
How many decades did we argue about where to store low level waste? There is still no solution to high level waste.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
01:53 PM Nov 3, 2020
Nuclear power won't happen here. It will be down to insurance. The company will need insurance for the for $100 billion just in case things go wrong. Then the government, in other words, you & I are liable beyond that.
If you build one, you then need a second one to do maintenance. Better to have 4 reactors so only 1/4 is in maintenance at any one time.
Greystone said
02:20 PM Nov 3, 2020
I find it amusing that with the introduction of any new technology there are always sceptics and optimists. At the end of the day new technology will prevail and will provide unimaginable opportunities. Think about the introduction of the motor car, electricity, mobile phones, internet etc. Each one had their fair share of sceptics and opponents. The same will be with renewable power. We are transitioning, no doubt about it.
dabbler said
02:25 PM Nov 3, 2020
The cost of nuclear power is measured in generations of our descendants. It isn't needed given the options available and still in use. It's hilarious that people support nuclear as a power source yet dismiss renewables as immature. Would you want a 1950s nuclear power plant in Australia ? No. Because you recognize technology as changed, so why not just accept the renewables technology is changing ? Nothing we use is harmless to the environment but nuclear solutions create an truly irreversible situation. Renewables offer so much to smaller communities without the scars. That's exactly why west of the Great Divide communities are using renewables right now.
Always a knocker? Some pumped storage will easily fix that.
Cheers,
Peter
not a knocker i have invested in solar for our house also free camp and rely on solar just a fact when there is no sun there is no solar
Solar power that is stored in another form is still solar power from my perspective.
Our motorhome is solar powered. We store some of that power in batteries for when the sun does not shine.
For grid systems we need power storage too, either pumped hydro or hydrogen or others. Batteries are not the best solution long term because they are expensive and wear out fairly quickly although SAs "big battery" has been a huge success financially because they fill them with cheap power when we have excess wind and solar and then we sell it to Victoria when the spot prices are extremely high before the Vics can crank up their coal. As a result, they are increasing the battery's size by 50%.
The other feature our grids need is "variable loads" in addition to pumped storage. We have a very power hungry desalination plant in Adelaide. They consider it "base load" when they need to run it, which is pretty stupid. Instead, it should be powered every time we have excess solar or wind power and turned off when renewable power is in short supply.
It is not rocket science, but it does need different thinking and the power authorities are slow on the uptake.
Cheers,
Peter
Even in winter our solar generates more than all of our power requirements both in the motorhome and at home.
Have not carried or needed a generator for 20 years.
I expect that some time in the not too distant future portable generators will be banned due to their uncontrolled pollution levels.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Monday 26th of October 2020 12:16:22 PM
Wrecked Oceanlinx generator to stay put offshore at Carrickalinga as partial removal is delayed:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-26/wrecked-wave-power-generator-removal-delayed/12812632
Removal of a wrecked wave energy generator stranded off a popular South Australian seaside holiday town has been delayed yet again, the local ratepayers group has said, six years after the project was sunk.
The 3,000-tonne structure was being towed from Port Adelaide to Port MacDonnell in March 2014 when it started listing due to damaged air bags.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-04/wave-energy-unit-damaged-while-under-tow/5296488
. . .
Some four years previous, a different Oceanlinx generator sank offshore at Port Kembla, New South Wales, when it broke free from its pylons during rough seas.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282
Carnegie has gone through $200 million of money from shareholders and various governments over the last 15 years, including the French, Irish, and our own Government who gave them $15 mil., so it's not through lack of financial 'help'. However, they still haven't been able to deliver a scalable and workable solution, so it would seem wave energy is a tougher nut to crack than solar and wind.
-- Edited by Mamil on Wednesday 28th of October 2020 11:44:44 PM
The future will see examples of all of these generation opportunities. Some will become main stream, some won't.
When that happens, energy will become so cheap that we will see a new industrial revolution. We will also see the price of energy do what the cost of mobile phone calls did. Think back to the cost of mobile phone calls 20 or 30 years ago. Who would have thought?
There will be a daily supply charge and the electricity will be free. No one will care how much you use, like no one cares now how many phone calls you make.
Exciting times.
Cheers,
Peter
In my early days working on the East-West microwave system (from Port Pirie in SA to Northam in WA), we used town power where it was available, 2kw wind & diesel generators where there was nothing. Until the newer power hungry digital radio systems were installed this combination worked well. Often some sites would go for nearly a month before the diesel generators were required to start!
For those who know where Fowlers Bay is (& some other sites in the area), often the governor would fail on the wind gen due to corrosion & we'd arrive on site to find the wind gen totally destroyed - nose cone & governor on the ground, one blade wrapped around the tower, another over the fence!!
One Christmas Day I attended Wirrulla (east of Ceduna) - it was very hot, windy & dusty. The batteries were literally "cooking with wind". I had to give them a spell by applying the wind generator brake - releasing it before going home.
When the digital equipt was installed, the diesel generators ran 24/7! And that is the main reason fibre optic replaced radio systems, capacity was another.
Sea power has been mentioned above - bring it on!! But how do you install it? Maintain it? Everything would have to be made from stainless steel (which is brittle) or aluminium - then you get corrosion between dissimilar metals & then the cost!!
Lots of investigation needs to be done before we can say we've got the answers for the future.
Where have you been hiding?
https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/resources/resources-hub/clean-energy-australia-report
For the whole of 2019, 24% renewables for Australia,52% for South Australia, and increasing.
Cheers,
Peter
Nice rant, but I guess beauty is in they eye of the beholder...
Wind farm...
Solar farm...
Coal mine...
Coal fired power station...
Oil refinery...
-- Edited by Mamil on Monday 2nd of November 2020 10:02:57 PM
Well this has certainly surprised me and probably others as well.
Lets destroy a pristine area in the Kimberley or for that matter anywhere else there may be tidal movement suitable for power generation but not tolerate the use of a Honda 2kva Generator for a couple of hours at a camp site.
Even with a daily / weekly / monthly supply charge electricity will NEVER BE FREE.
As with Warren above, we too have relatives in SA and they certainly enjoy coming home from work to a system designed Brown Out. Extremely enjoyable when the day temp has been in the high 30s but they do have that warm and fuzzy feeling that their electricity bill will be around 20% higher than any other state.
I would suggest not getting too wrapped up in exciting times until we come up with a method of power generation that is proven overseas, is clean, its resource is readily available in parts of Australia and it is funded and operated by the government so as to keep the greedy grubby little fingers of private enterprise out of the power money box. Another clue would be that this resource is readily available in SA.
My tin hat is now firmly affixed to my head so fire away.
Regards
Rob
Has anyone here driven from LA to LV? Through Palm Springs. Along a road that for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and bloody miles every square inch of ground is covered by wind towers. So that's the future is it? And anyone traveling that road will tell you that most of those towers are now out of service. Broken down. Collecting rust and dust. That's what everyone wants is it?
Yes lets get cleaner energy. But not this made rush to destroy nature when we pretend we are saving nature.
Peter, SA quotes all sorts of magical figures. If they are so good ask them to cut the Heywood connector. While your at it explain to my inlaws why they have 1 or 2 blackouts a week in the Mount Gambier area. Explain why Lake Bonny was once a bird haven and a beauty spot and now is nothing but a forest of wind towers. While you're at it tell me how your OKA will work on battery power. How many miles to the battery? Don't tell others what they should be doing while ignoring your own advice.
Follow the money. Look at who is making money out of this new green revolution. And if you do follow that trail you will see profit comes way before the environment. But no one want to know that side of the story.
There is none so blind as those who can't see!
Tightened the saddle straps and holding on Aussie 1.
Jokes aside, SA is in the box seat. All they need is a political party that builds the power generator at Roxby Downs and then supplies the grid but in reverse... Charge the states wanting access and subsidise SA, particularly in the industrial area to rebuild that state as a manufacturing hub like it was in years gone by.
Solar farms and wind farms are slowly but surely proving themselves not to be as sustainable as those with green attitudes would like to believe.
Just imagine the Green Revolt that would take place if a government of our country want to build a Snow Mountains Scheme today.
It is the cost of these pie in the sky systems that is causing financial grief for younger Australians.
We have the resource so why not use it.
Regards
Rob
SA is one big experiment. With very high power costs and black and brown outs. Yeah sure they are somewhat green but at what cost? What did the secret Musk batteries cost? (I owned a RAM in the USA from 2013 to 2018. It would get 4mpg up some hills and 99mpg down some hills. So, just like those promoting green power, I tell every I can get 99mpg out of my 400hp RAM. Not a lie. Just not the full picture).
No one mentions the power needed to make the concrete for the wind tower base. Or the power to make the steel for the towers and blades. Which we once made in Australia but are now made over seas in a country who avoids meeting any targets. China gets rich while we experiment at OUR cost. And what happens to the scrap when these you beaut towers and solar panels meet their use by date. And not even a whisper about disposing of Musk batteries when they go kaput.
I agree. Roxby Downs is sitting on a fortune if a politician or two had the guts to put polls and elections to one side.
The sad thing is that 'science' is always thrown into the debate. The 'science' that suits 'our' argument.
Close to the main usage and away from the food producing areas.
Save mines and gas fracking etc so we would have more area for food. Just have to keep the areas in Australian hands.
How many decades did we argue about where to store low level waste? There is still no solution to high level waste.
Cheers,
Peter
Nuclear power won't happen here. It will be down to insurance. The company will need insurance for the for $100 billion just in case things go wrong. Then the government, in other words, you & I are liable beyond that.
If you build one, you then need a second one to do maintenance. Better to have 4 reactors so only 1/4 is in maintenance at any one time.