My elderly Mum is about to enter a nursing home (AFTER covid).....basically we/she has to pay a bond ($300G) plus 85% of her pension....I asked the nursing home "on her passing when is the bond paid/or is the bond paid to her estate??"......Their response was "immediately it is federal govt guaranteed" .......I am hearing stories where this is not happening. Has anyone had experiences (good/bad) is this area???......cheers Bilbo
Bill B said
11:37 AM Sep 23, 2020
Get a copy of their agreement which would outline all fees and charges etc.
solomonsdog said
12:26 PM Sep 23, 2020
This factsheet is worth a look. https://www.myagedcare.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-04/refund-of-lump-sums-paid-for-accomodation.pdf
Kaid said
02:15 PM Sep 23, 2020
We had this happen when mum passed away. The money gets put back into the Estate within 10 days of Probate being granted
dogbox said
02:40 PM Sep 23, 2020
what happens if people have not got $300,000 for a bond
The Travelling Dillberries said
02:42 PM Sep 23, 2020
Kaid wrote:
We had this happen when mum passed away. The money gets put back into the Estate within 10 days of Probate being granted
A friend has lost everything due to the site owners declaring bankruptcy. Do your homework on the financial status of the place. This was a privately owned facility.
the rocket said
02:44 PM Sep 23, 2020
dogbox wrote:
what happens if people have not got $300,000 for a bond
Exactly. Been looking into this and think i need to look into euthenasia for me some time in the future cos going into a nursing home sounds like torture And a money makng exercise and thats not for us.
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:20 PM Sep 23, 2020
the rocket wrote:
dogbox wrote:
what happens if people have not got $300,000 for a bond
Exactly. Been looking into this and think i need to look into euthenasia for me some time in the future cos going into a nursing home sounds like torture And a money makng exercise and thats not for us.
There are plenty of places where the bond is well over $300,000.
Fact is whether you go into full time care, or not, and when, will probably not be your decision when the time comes, but be decided by whoever holds your Advanced Care Directive on the advise of those in the medical profession.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
04:22 PM Sep 23, 2020
My sister organised a nursing home for one of our parents a decade ago. It's exhausting & it is a complete nightmare. Being an ex nurse she went around the nursing homes knowing what to look for. Even basic things like the smell of number 1 or 2 anywhere throughout the site. It gives a good indication how committed they are to the residents.
Once you have narrowed it down, visit the home a few times at different times & the weekend.
Outside the premises try to ask other visitors what they think of the nursing home as you are thinking of having your parent here.
Read all the fine print thoroughly!
We were very happy with the nursing home we had & so was our parent. We felt extremely lucky hearing of all the problems.
bilbo said
04:46 PM Sep 23, 2020
Thanks everyone for yr comments.
I am confidant about the nursing home "being up to scratch"....so is Mum (she has had 2 "trial" runs there).
I will take the "agreement" to a lawyer to peruse ............cheers Bilbo
oldbloke said
06:57 PM Sep 23, 2020
Kaid wrote:
We had this happen when mum passed away. The money gets put back into the Estate within 10 days of Probate being granted
That was my experience. But lawyer made a written request then paid within about 2 weeks. This is Vic. State's may vary.
dorian said
04:54 AM Sep 24, 2020
I don't understand the justification for paying any more bond than a tenant in residential housing. That's usually 4 weeks rent AFAIK. It covers damage to the property.
In any case, why isn't this bond held in trust, in which case it wouldn't be at risk if the company became bankrupt? In fact, why is the nursing home permitted to use your bond as operating capital (which is the implication if the bond disappears as a consequence of a bankruptcy declaration)? To me, it looks like a Ponzi scam where new "tenants" pay out the bonds of deceased tenants.
Wanda said
09:07 AM Sep 24, 2020
Yep $300k is one of the cheaper ones, my mothers is $550k.
I think it is referred to these days as Residentual Care and yes it is refunded upon leaving(however).
The sale of a persons house is how you would normally cover the cost of it, if you are lucky enough to own it.
There are some homes better than others, we moved my mother from one home, bond $500k, to the current home which is far superior in all aspects of her care.
You need to do your homework and talk to as many people as possible
regards
Ian
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:48 AM Sep 24, 2020
The "bond" is in fact the total charge for the accommodation.
There is then a care fee (which includes care, meals, cleaning, laundry etc). Part of which is a fixed amount (currently $52.25 per day) set by the government, the other part is means tested.
Cheers,
Peter
Wanda said
10:03 AM Sep 24, 2020
Peter n Margaret, correct 100%
Costly this getting old thing, hey!
Ian
Kaid said
10:58 AM Sep 24, 2020
Mum was in a Nursing Home in Victoria
SouthernComfort said
04:16 PM Sep 24, 2020
My mum has been in a Vic aged care home for 11 months so far. $500k bond, plus costs (basically funded by the pension) as described by Peter n Margaret. Sold her townhouse to fund the bond. We were lucky to find an excellent home with a larger than average room, en suite and private access to garden. When she 'vacates', the $500k principal gets refunded. In the meantime the home makes their money on investment income from the bond. As Wanda says above, it is worth doing as much homework as possible. Not all homes are created equal but there are some jewels among the rough.
the rocket said
03:12 PM Sep 25, 2020
SouthernComfort wrote:
My mum has been in a Vic aged care home for 11 months so far. $500k bond, plus costs (basically funded by the pension) as described by Peter n Margaret. Sold her townhouse to fund the bond. We were lucky to find an excellent home with a larger than average room, en suite and private access to garden. When she 'vacates', the $500k principal gets refunded. In the meantime the home makes their money on investment income from the bond. As Wanda says above, it is worth doing as much homework as possible. Not all homes are created equal but there are some jewels among the rough.
What happens if they invest it badly or do you get to choose where it is invested?
Wanda said
04:21 PM Sep 25, 2020
Rocket, no, you just get your money back.
So if they invest it "badly", thats their problem.
Its a bond, once it is handed over its theirs, until you leave, one way or the other.
cheers(still standing)
Ian
Whenarewethere said
04:53 PM Sep 25, 2020
Rather than handing over $500k, couldn't one just give them the expected return, on a monthly basis, in advance.
JeffRae said
05:33 PM Sep 25, 2020
We had to find my mother accommodation as she could no longer look after herself. We are in WA, she was in Victoria. RAD (Bond) was negotiated at $300,000. At the time we could only afford $100,000 so we had a DAP (daily accomodation payment) as well. This was $200,000 x 5.5% = $11,000/365 = $30 per day DAP The interest rate is determined by the government, currently around 4%. As well, we had a daily care fee to pay (determined by goverment) Once the full RAD is paid (eg sale of house) you no longer pay the DAP
When the accommodation is vacated you are then paid interest on the RAD until it is repaid. (Currently around 2%)
It was very time consuming and quite stressful as we had to pick accommodation sight unseen. We were happy with our choice on inspection at a later date
JeffRae
Whenarewethere said
06:02 PM Sep 25, 2020
I'm not going to have someone to do all this for me. I'll have to get on the good side of my niece!
JeffRae said
09:10 PM Sep 25, 2020
Make sure she has Power of Attorney for your financial & medical affairs, the biggest hurdle to get over is "privacy"
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:44 PM Sep 25, 2020
You will need to assign an Enduring Power of Attorney and an Advanced Medical Directive.
Talk to a Solicitor. It is important.
Cheers,
Peter
SouthernComfort said
09:25 AM Sep 26, 2020
Anyone who's been through it certainly knows the process is long winded and complex. We used an accountant/fin adviser who specialises in aged care applications and it was worth every penny. At the time, some of the rules and policies were in the midst of being changed and to keep abreast of it all would have been a real challenge for any DIY'er. At the end we had everything ticked off by our solicitor with P of A etc. all put in place. Definitely a process worthy of professional guidance.
Centrelink also has to be involved as asset changes will affect the pension. Even though your principal home doesn't count as an asset for pension means testing, once it's sold the cash value of it does. The RAD is considered an asset for the means test although from memory there's a couple of years grace before it is taken into account, don't quote me though I'd really need to check that again...
Those who don't have sufficient assets to cover the RAD can apply for a govt. subsidised placement where no RAD is payable. All care homes are required to have a small percentage of standard rooms reserved for this purpose. To qualify for a 100% subsidy your total asset worth must be less than about $50k, (that was 12 mths ago, it gets reviewed periodically). Daily care costs are still 85% of the pension though. So it's a system where you're best off either having plenty of money/assets, or very little!
-- Edited by SouthernComfort on Saturday 26th of September 2020 09:25:51 AM
Whenarewethere said
10:59 AM Sep 26, 2020
The system is broken. Either you have to filthy rich or a pauper. Our other parent was nursed at home. We had hospital bed, oscillating air mattress to prevent bed sores (& we had none, the best piece of equipment, so but one), oxygen concentrator & a really good doctor.
The last few weeks were costing us over $7000pw for private support. We were prepared to pay extra for actual nurses, but could not get any. The carers we could get were brilliant. Chatting with them we were surprised just how overloaded the system was. After a night shift with us they were off to do a day shift.
SouthernComfort said
02:13 PM Sep 26, 2020
Yep, the system is overloaded. In Vic there's a 12 month waiting list to get a govt. home care package.
BTW, as JeffRae mentioned above, with care homes you can pay the DAP instead of a lump sum RAD, or even part DAP and part RAD (we did that until the property sold). To afford full DAP long term you still need some reasonable assets.
My elderly Mum is about to enter a nursing home (AFTER covid).....basically we/she has to pay a bond ($300G) plus 85% of her pension....I asked the nursing home "on her passing when is the bond paid/or is the bond paid to her estate??"......Their response was "immediately it is federal govt guaranteed" .......I am hearing stories where this is not happening. Has anyone had experiences (good/bad) is this area???......cheers Bilbo
This factsheet is worth a look. https://www.myagedcare.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-04/refund-of-lump-sums-paid-for-accomodation.pdf
A friend has lost everything due to the site owners declaring bankruptcy. Do your homework on the financial status of the place. This was a privately owned facility.
Exactly. Been looking into this and think i need to look into euthenasia for me some time in the future cos going into a nursing home sounds like torture And a money makng exercise and thats not for us.
There are plenty of places where the bond is well over $300,000.
Fact is whether you go into full time care, or not, and when, will probably not be your decision when the time comes, but be decided by whoever holds your Advanced Care Directive on the advise of those in the medical profession.
Cheers,
Peter
My sister organised a nursing home for one of our parents a decade ago. It's exhausting & it is a complete nightmare. Being an ex nurse she went around the nursing homes knowing what to look for. Even basic things like the smell of number 1 or 2 anywhere throughout the site. It gives a good indication how committed they are to the residents.
Once you have narrowed it down, visit the home a few times at different times & the weekend.
Outside the premises try to ask other visitors what they think of the nursing home as you are thinking of having your parent here.
Read all the fine print thoroughly!
We were very happy with the nursing home we had & so was our parent. We felt extremely lucky hearing of all the problems.
Thanks everyone for yr comments.
I am confidant about the nursing home "being up to scratch"....so is Mum (she has had 2 "trial" runs there).
I will take the "agreement" to a lawyer to peruse ............cheers Bilbo
That was my experience. But lawyer made a written request then paid within about 2 weeks. This is Vic. State's may vary.
In any case, why isn't this bond held in trust, in which case it wouldn't be at risk if the company became bankrupt? In fact, why is the nursing home permitted to use your bond as operating capital (which is the implication if the bond disappears as a consequence of a bankruptcy declaration)? To me, it looks like a Ponzi scam where new "tenants" pay out the bonds of deceased tenants.
I think it is referred to these days as Residentual Care and yes it is refunded upon leaving(however).
The sale of a persons house is how you would normally cover the cost of it, if you are lucky enough to own it.
There are some homes better than others, we moved my mother from one home, bond $500k, to the current home which is far superior in all aspects of her care.
You need to do your homework and talk to as many people as possible
regards
Ian
There is then a care fee (which includes care, meals, cleaning, laundry etc). Part of which is a fixed amount (currently $52.25 per day) set by the government, the other part is means tested.
Cheers,
Peter
Costly this getting old thing, hey!
Ian
Mum was in a Nursing Home in Victoria
What happens if they invest it badly or do you get to choose where it is invested?
So if they invest it "badly", thats their problem.
Its a bond, once it is handed over its theirs, until you leave, one way or the other.
cheers(still standing)
Ian
Rather than handing over $500k, couldn't one just give them the expected return, on a monthly basis, in advance.
We had to find my mother accommodation as she could no longer look after herself. We are in WA, she was in Victoria.
RAD (Bond) was negotiated at $300,000. At the time we could only afford $100,000 so we had a DAP (daily accomodation payment) as well. This was $200,000 x 5.5% = $11,000/365 = $30 per day DAP
The interest rate is determined by the government, currently around 4%.
As well, we had a daily care fee to pay (determined by goverment)
Once the full RAD is paid (eg sale of house) you no longer pay the DAP
When the accommodation is vacated you are then paid interest on the RAD until it is repaid. (Currently around 2%)
It was very time consuming and quite stressful as we had to pick accommodation sight unseen. We were happy with our choice on inspection at a later date
JeffRae
I'm not going to have someone to do all this for me. I'll have to get on the good side of my niece!
Talk to a Solicitor. It is important.
Cheers,
Peter
Anyone who's been through it certainly knows the process is long winded and complex. We used an accountant/fin adviser who specialises in aged care applications and it was worth every penny. At the time, some of the rules and policies were in the midst of being changed and to keep abreast of it all would have been a real challenge for any DIY'er. At the end we had everything ticked off by our solicitor with P of A etc. all put in place. Definitely a process worthy of professional guidance.
Centrelink also has to be involved as asset changes will affect the pension. Even though your principal home doesn't count as an asset for pension means testing, once it's sold the cash value of it does. The RAD is considered an asset for the means test although from memory there's a couple of years grace before it is taken into account, don't quote me though I'd really need to check that again...
Those who don't have sufficient assets to cover the RAD can apply for a govt. subsidised placement where no RAD is payable. All care homes are required to have a small percentage of standard rooms reserved for this purpose. To qualify for a 100% subsidy your total asset worth must be less than about $50k, (that was 12 mths ago, it gets reviewed periodically). Daily care costs are still 85% of the pension though. So it's a system where you're best off either having plenty of money/assets, or very little!
-- Edited by SouthernComfort on Saturday 26th of September 2020 09:25:51 AM
The system is broken. Either you have to filthy rich or a pauper. Our other parent was nursed at home. We had hospital bed, oscillating air mattress to prevent bed sores (& we had none, the best piece of equipment, so but one), oxygen concentrator & a really good doctor.
The last few weeks were costing us over $7000pw for private support. We were prepared to pay extra for actual nurses, but could not get any. The carers we could get were brilliant. Chatting with them we were surprised just how overloaded the system was. After a night shift with us they were off to do a day shift.
BTW, as JeffRae mentioned above, with care homes you can pay the DAP instead of a lump sum RAD, or even part DAP and part RAD (we did that until the property sold). To afford full DAP long term you still need some reasonable assets.