It appears from my interpretations, of what I have been reading, in the mainstream media
That the West Australian border, may be in lockdown for longer than I thought, due to the moving goalpost of the fight against the Coronavirus
There has also been a development, in regards to forcing the West Australian border open prematurely
A certain gentleman
Quote
offered to withdraw his challenge to Western Australia's coronavirus hard border if the state agreed to move proceedings in a separate dispute - his bid for billions of dollars in damages relating to his mining interests in the state
Unquote
I personally make no comment (moral/legal/political) on border closure in this thread, as I can no longer access the "Coronavirus Border Closure" thread, and would not like to be banned, from this exceptional website
The link to the story of the above quote, is below
Methinks that this was the said rotund individual's (I refuse to refer to him as a gentleman) original end game. Trying to hold the state to ransom. It is running in the grey area for extortion.
His bluff has been called and I watch with interest just what will happen next.
DMaxer said
10:01 AM Aug 14, 2020
When a State Government sits late into the night to pass legislation that makes certain government ministers immune from prosecution, that denies any right of appeal from their decisions, that does not allow natural justice to be a consideration and does not allow any freedom of information in respect of their deliberations, then I would be a little concerned Greg.
I do not think it is prudent to rely on "their ABC" to be unbiased or factually correct. I listened to an interview with Clive on the national broadcaster this morning and there is certainly more to this than is being reported by their handwringers and the perpetually offended.
I think the High Court will give this new legislation a short back and sides when it comes before them.
Whether you like the bloke or not, he is one of the few pollies that sat in parliament and donated all of his wages and allowances to charity.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 14th of August 2020 10:06:15 AM
Mike Harding said
02:36 PM Aug 14, 2020
I largely agree Dmaxer.
I'm disappointed WA MPs saw fit to pass such a bill which is no more than tyranny by government. Hopefully the High Court will strike it down - I don't know what power the HC has over state's abilities to pass legislation. This is banana republic stuff and and underlines my recent comment in another thread that I don't believe Australia is yet sufficiently politically mature to loose the monarchy and become a republic.
I agree Mike. The HC cannot veto or dismiss legislation per se but what they can do is rule part of or all of it unconstitutional if that legislation is relied upon by one party in a court action.
i would imagine if one party tries to sue another party and they are then estopped by this legislation then an appeal on the basis that the legislation is unconstitutional would give the HC jurisdiction.
Constitutional law was never my forte but I imagine CP has taken some pretty sound advice from those who specialise in that area.
Interesting times ahead, me thinks.
Greg 1 said
11:13 AM Aug 15, 2020
Regardless what you think of the legislation, the fact remains that Clive Palmer is only interested in Clive Palmer. His outrageous claims that he is trying to get the border closure torn down and suing the state for billions is somehow in the best interests of the citizens of WA is breathtaking. Both issues all stem from Clive not being able to just do what he wants here in the West and him having a very large dummy spit as a result.
His popularity here is at an all time low. For most West Aussies, if they never saw or heard of Clive ever again it would be too soon.
DMaxer said
11:36 AM Aug 15, 2020
I don't know the man personally Greg so I cannot comment. If his claims and legal action have no merit then he will lose. If he loses not only will he have his own legal costs but he will also have to pay the State Government's legal costs which will be of no insignificant amount.
His success or otherewise will not be contingent on his popularity but whether the court accepts his claim.
Interesting times.
Mike Harding said
01:37 PM Aug 15, 2020
Greg 1 wrote:
the fact remains that Clive Palmer is only interested in Clive Palmer.
My 66 years of life have indicated to me that pretty much applies to anyone I have ever met.
The problem WA now has is that *no one* can have any confidence the government and opposition will not, tomorrow, legislate for anything which takes their fancy. Do you *really* believe the very big spending multinational companies have not noticed this? And the WA economy relies upon such companies.
Mature, sensible, balanced, democratic governments do not, and should not, operate in this manner.
Greg 1 said
07:55 PM Aug 15, 2020
Well for many years, major mining companies such as BHP, Rio Tinto, Fortesque and many others have operated, and still operate in this State without issue. The problem with Clive is that it has to be Clive's way or the highway. He does not like to operate under the same rules that everyone else does and when he is told "no", he does a dummy spit and heads to court. He is a very litigious individual, and is costing Australian taxpayers a great deal of money. Not just in this State either.
I wonder if we could ship him to the USA? He and Trump would suit one another.
DMaxer said
09:40 AM Aug 16, 2020
I don't have an opinion one way or the other about him Greg. Everyone is entitled to litigate if they feel aggrieved. If this is done continuously where there is no merit they are then classed as a vexatious litigant and cannot bring any more actions without leave of a court. Our friend seems to be very successful with the ones that he brings so perhaps he has the law on his side. His other appearances seem to be when Government institutions prosecute him and well, he seems to fare pretty well there too. Perhaps he is a person who just stands up for his legal rights and is able to do so because cost is not a consideration.
I don't live in the west but I did for about three years in the Pilbara not so long ago. I saw first hand how some people are treated.
If you are happy living in an environment where individual politicians cannot be held to account, where the laws of natural justice cannot be applied, where freedom of information into Government decisions is not permitted and there is no appeal process from these decisions, then who am I to voice an opinion.
This legisltation does not just apply to our friend's grievances, it is across the board. Shipping people off when they don't agree with the Government, where have I heard of that happening before?
Interesting times indeed.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Sunday 16th of August 2020 09:42:09 AM
Gundog said
10:38 AM Aug 16, 2020
I see the crux of the issue re border closures as a conflict between unelected, non representative public servants, doing the will of their political masters.
From the onset of the pandemic the Federal Chief Health Officer said there was no need for border closures, then we have various state and territory Chief Health Offices offering a different view, thus it started with Tassie then the NT WA ACT and SA, NSW was forced into closing its border with Vic not by science but by media continual bombardment and harasment over the issue.
The NSW closure was a knee jerk reacation to the pressure but inflicted undue pain and suffering on it constituants who live on cross border towns, not just the Albury/Wodonga border but there are many along the Murray River and the high country, The Gonn crossing bridge locked those that shop in the small town of Murrabit now have to travel to Barham, Moulamein, Deniliquin or Moama, the majority of these towns save Deniliquin are at lacking in facilities and generally most travel to Victorian locations like Swan Hill, Kerang, Echuca and Bendigo, all a majority of the children travel by Bus each day to schools in Vic.
Many Victorians with Holiday home on the Gold and Sunshine coasts of Queensland are now changing their address to there and moving unrestriced, this information has come from a friend on the sunny coast, who works in the real estate, houses are sold sight unseen by cashed up Victorians no haggling, paying at or above the asking price.
People with the know how will jump boarders unhindered, its only the honest person the cannot.
Just consider the amount of class actions against governments that may come, if the high court finds in favor of CP, precedent has been set by governments allowing footballer to fly in and out states to play games, yet a private individual cannot fly into ie WA to conduct a business meeting and then fly out in his private plane, that smacks of discrimination and hypocrisy.
Greg 1 said
01:32 PM Aug 16, 2020
Footballers are kept in a "bubble" isolated from the general community. Clive wouldn't like that. He wanted free rein to do whatever he wants. Under normal circumstances that is everyone's right to go about their business unhindered. But this is far from normal and Clive, like the rest of us, has to realize that we cannot do what we want during this pandemic.
I am sure that there are people just like Clive who try and do flout the system. But if they get caught trying, as I hope they do, then they shouldn't whinge about the penalty.
As far as the legislation, the WA chamber of mines and energy that represent all the major mining interests here, has come out saying that they don't have an issue with the legislation. Whether the High Court has a different view will remain to be seen. I have also worked in the Pilbara and I certainly didn't suffer or witness any ill treatment of people up there. In fact, considering the remoteness and the harsh environment, people were treated very well and still are, and earn very good money doing it, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Clive's primary gripe is that when he put in an application to develop a mine site in the Pilbara, his application was rejected as it didn't comply with about 40 conditions that were placed on it. Instead of complying like everyone else has to, Clive elected to go down the litigation path that he seems wont to do.
Given that there are many strict requirements to develop a mine including environmental and native title, Clive needed to suck it up and get on with it. He would have an operating mine by now.
It looks like Mr Palmer has lost the High Court case, and the West Australian interstate borders will not be forced open, using the that particular legal angle
Although (in my opinion), justice has been seen to have been done
I thought that it was very out of whack, for any group of people, to attempt to force open a border, which was closed to help stop the spread of Covid-19
Not trying to point my stick, or push my particular wheelbarrow
But...
Blind Freddy can see the health difference between Australia, and some other countries, which for whatever reasons, have got a lot of Covid-19 around
It appears from my interpretations, of what I have been reading, in the mainstream media
That the West Australian border, may be in lockdown for longer than I thought, due to the moving goalpost of the fight against the Coronavirus
There has also been a development, in regards to forcing the West Australian border open prematurely
A certain gentleman
Quote
Unquote
I personally make no comment (moral/legal/political) on border closure in this thread, as I can no longer access the "Coronavirus Border Closure" thread, and would not like to be banned, from this exceptional website
The link to the story of the above quote, is below
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-12/clive-palmer-offered-to-withdraw-border-dispute-letter-reveals/12551576
When a State Government sits late into the night to pass legislation that makes certain government ministers immune from prosecution, that denies any right of appeal from their decisions, that does not allow natural justice to be a consideration and does not allow any freedom of information in respect of their deliberations, then I would be a little concerned Greg.
I do not think it is prudent to rely on "their ABC" to be unbiased or factually correct. I listened to an interview with Clive on the national broadcaster this morning and there is certainly more to this than is being reported by their handwringers and the perpetually offended.
I think the High Court will give this new legislation a short back and sides when it comes before them.
Whether you like the bloke or not, he is one of the few pollies that sat in parliament and donated all of his wages and allowances to charity.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Friday 14th of August 2020 10:06:15 AM
I largely agree Dmaxer.
I'm disappointed WA MPs saw fit to pass such a bill which is no more than tyranny by government. Hopefully the High Court will strike it down - I don't know what power the HC has over state's abilities to pass legislation. This is banana republic stuff and and underlines my recent comment in another thread that I don't believe Australia is yet sufficiently politically mature to loose the monarchy and become a republic.
https://theconversation.com/the-wa-government-legislated-itself-a-win-in-its-dispute-with-clive-palmer-and-put-itself-above-the-law-144360
I agree Mike. The HC cannot veto or dismiss legislation per se but what they can do is rule part of or all of it unconstitutional if that legislation is relied upon by one party in a court action.
i would imagine if one party tries to sue another party and they are then estopped by this legislation then an appeal on the basis that the legislation is unconstitutional would give the HC jurisdiction.
Constitutional law was never my forte but I imagine CP has taken some pretty sound advice from those who specialise in that area.
Interesting times ahead, me thinks.
I don't know the man personally Greg so I cannot comment. If his claims and legal action have no merit then he will lose. If he loses not only will he have his own legal costs but he will also have to pay the State Government's legal costs which will be of no insignificant amount.
His success or otherewise will not be contingent on his popularity but whether the court accepts his claim.
Interesting times.
My 66 years of life have indicated to me that pretty much applies to anyone I have ever met.
The problem WA now has is that *no one* can have any confidence the government and opposition will not, tomorrow, legislate for anything which takes their fancy. Do you *really* believe the very big spending multinational companies have not noticed this? And the WA economy relies upon such companies.
Mature, sensible, balanced, democratic governments do not, and should not, operate in this manner.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other about him Greg. Everyone is entitled to litigate if they feel aggrieved. If this is done continuously where there is no merit they are then classed as a vexatious litigant and cannot bring any more actions without leave of a court. Our friend seems to be very successful with the ones that he brings so perhaps he has the law on his side. His other appearances seem to be when Government institutions prosecute him and well, he seems to fare pretty well there too. Perhaps he is a person who just stands up for his legal rights and is able to do so because cost is not a consideration.
I don't live in the west but I did for about three years in the Pilbara not so long ago. I saw first hand how some people are treated.
If you are happy living in an environment where individual politicians cannot be held to account, where the laws of natural justice cannot be applied, where freedom of information into Government decisions is not permitted and there is no appeal process from these decisions, then who am I to voice an opinion.
This legisltation does not just apply to our friend's grievances, it is across the board. Shipping people off when they don't agree with the Government, where have I heard of that happening before?
Interesting times indeed.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Sunday 16th of August 2020 09:42:09 AM
I see the crux of the issue re border closures as a conflict between unelected, non representative public servants, doing the will of their political masters.
From the onset of the pandemic the Federal Chief Health Officer said there was no need for border closures, then we have various state and territory Chief Health Offices offering a different view, thus it started with Tassie then the NT WA ACT and SA, NSW was forced into closing its border with Vic not by science but by media continual bombardment and harasment over the issue.
The NSW closure was a knee jerk reacation to the pressure but inflicted undue pain and suffering on it constituants who live on cross border towns, not just the Albury/Wodonga border but there are many along the Murray River and the high country, The Gonn crossing bridge locked those that shop in the small town of Murrabit now have to travel to Barham, Moulamein, Deniliquin or Moama, the majority of these towns save Deniliquin are at lacking in facilities and generally most travel to Victorian locations like Swan Hill, Kerang, Echuca and Bendigo, all a majority of the children travel by Bus each day to schools in Vic.
Many Victorians with Holiday home on the Gold and Sunshine coasts of Queensland are now changing their address to there and moving unrestriced, this information has come from a friend on the sunny coast, who works in the real estate, houses are sold sight unseen by cashed up Victorians no haggling, paying at or above the asking price.
People with the know how will jump boarders unhindered, its only the honest person the cannot.
Just consider the amount of class actions against governments that may come, if the high court finds in favor of CP, precedent has been set by governments allowing footballer to fly in and out states to play games, yet a private individual cannot fly into ie WA to conduct a business meeting and then fly out in his private plane, that smacks of discrimination and hypocrisy.
A good article on the Palmer/WA issue:
https://www.theage.com.au/national/what-are-the-disputes-involving-clive-palmer-and-the-wa-government-about-20200819-p55ndk.html
I am the poster on this topic, so I will obviously add information as it comes to hand
But in the interest of putting forward a balanced view, I will not comment (moral/legal/political) on border closure in this thread
Link to the snip below, which is buried in a live news article
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-australia-live-news-victorian-premier-daniel-andrews/12590710
It looks like Mr Palmer has lost the High Court case, and the West Australian interstate borders will not be forced open, using the that particular legal angle
Although (in my opinion), justice has been seen to have been done
I thought that it was very out of whack, for any group of people, to attempt to force open a border, which was closed to help stop the spread of Covid-19
Not trying to point my stick, or push my particular wheelbarrow
But...
Blind Freddy can see the health difference between Australia, and some other countries, which for whatever reasons, have got a lot of Covid-19 around
Link to the article below
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-06/clive-palmer-loses-high-court-challenge-against-wa-border-close/12855286
Although the following has nothing to do with the WA Border, I put it out there to give credit, where credit is due
The High Court, has dismissed a challenge to the Victorian lockdowns
Link to this story below
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-06/high-court-challenge-to-victorias-covid-19-lockdown-dismissed/12856416
-- Edited by Tony Bev on Friday 6th of November 2020 01:41:12 PM