The government recently announced that the fees for STEM courses will be reduced and those for humanities courses doubled. I guess an accomplished spin doctor could argue that the humanities are now being valued more highly than technical professions.
Subjects in nursing, psychology, English, languages, teaching, agriculture, maths, science, health, environmental science and architecture will be cheaper. The Government will increase its contribution to the cost of these classes, so students can expect to pay between $3,700 and $7,700 per year.
However, students enrolling to study law and commerce will have fees raised by 28 per cent.
For humanities courses, fees will more than double, putting them alongside law and commerce in the highest price band of $14,500 a year.
DMaxer said
11:13 AM Jun 20, 2020
I recall back in the late sixties I finished high school and was fortunate to obtain a place at University. In those days there were just two in NSW, Sydney and Uni of NSW. To be able to attend university in those days one needed to have sufficient grades and matriculation to be granted what was known as a Commonwealth Scholarship which paid your fees, helped with books etc and that was about it. Income was supplemented by working at the local pub or driving a taxi and then obtaining a job at Dept of Main Roads or local council as a labourer for the summer break.
In those days it was rare to see anyone who was not an Australian citizen. There were a few people from overseas that were here on Australian Government schemes like the Columbo Plan where bright students from poorer nations were given the opportunity to study and then be able to return to their country and assist their citizens.
I recall in those days people who wanted to pursue a career that needed tertiary qualifications remained at school until Year 12 whilst those that wanted a trades career left in Year 10 and were either apprenticed and or went to a technical college.
All that is now changed. Absolute thousands attend universities to obtain degrees that are meaningless career wise. The universities are big business with the major feature being how to attract overseas students who will pay the full fees. Go to any university and you would not know which country you were in. It now seems we have faculties and professors for every minority group and study all thinking they are about to save the world.
I am glad that I now just drive around in my caravan with the odd guest locum appearance in my chosen field and not be a part of all that. We were the lucky ones.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Saturday 20th of June 2020 11:15:42 AM
bgt said
11:40 AM Jun 20, 2020
Keep in mind that fees aren't up front. HECS fees are paid back after you start earning more than approx $46000.00. So in theory you can do your arts degree, never get a job and be no worse off than you are now.
msg said
02:02 PM Jun 20, 2020
I was one of the lucky ones who was able to get a place without paying. I think it was something about mature age students.( I was 35 at that time) No matriculation either. only went to 4th form. Now I have a B.com in Accounting degree. All it cost was the HECS. Yay for those days.
Even back then the overseas students were beginning to be sought out as cash cows and attitudes were pro China. I can remember when I had to do an assignment about the recession ( 90's?) before THE big one. I took the line that China was the cause (like so much of the media and empirical evidence) I have never had so many red pen derogatory statements on an assignment in my life and was quite cut up about it. Needless to say it gained an F. It turned out that the tutor was about to travel to China to attend a series of seminars. I have only just realised the connection. lol.
If you notice, the new fee structure is still focused on money. Most of the overseas students want business or doctors degrees. So the Uni's honey pot will not be upset. Those overseas students will get visas and go on to be the future captains of Australian economy while the Aussie students (whilst nursing and teaching in my opinion are more admirable ) will be relegated to less powerful and influential careers unless they have rich parents.
I think Uni's should remain places of learning rather than glorified job training centres. Still no hope for a future Australia.
Mike Harding said
02:10 PM Jun 20, 2020
DMaxer wrote:All that is now changed. Absolute thousands attend universities to obtain degrees that are meaningless career wise.
Whilst I essentially agree Dmaxer I suggest a wholesome society needs writers, poets, philosophers etc in addition to scientists, engineers, doctors and (God forbid!) lawyers :) - and most will have a good idea which side of that fence my career has followed.
It seems to me (having put two through uni and watched dozens) that outside the core subjects most degrees nowadays not worth the paper upon which they are mass printed.
School education standards in Australia are generally poor and universities often find they need to teach new students the basics before they have a hope of starting degree level education.
I suggest we return to streaming children at 11 with a later path into higher education for children who bloom a little older - however as we have destroyed much of our industry I have no idea what jobs we can provide for those youngsters who, previously, would have gone into unskilled work?
bgt said
02:43 PM Jun 20, 2020
Way back too many years ago I studied for a degree that included economics. I disagreed with the premise that was being taught to me. All left wing economics. I approached my department head with the issue. His response was to 'give the answers they want and not what you think'. So no open discussion. Nothing has changed.
msg said
03:09 PM Jun 20, 2020
bgt wrote:
Way back too many years ago I studied for a degree that included economics. I disagreed with the premise that was being taught to me. All left wing economics. I approached my department head with the issue. His response was to 'give the answers they want and not what you think'. So no open discussion. Nothing has changed.
Agree
Whenarewethere said
03:10 PM Jun 20, 2020
The same as when I got lessons for my driver's licence. The instructor said I am not going to teach you how to drive. Shock & Horror! I am going to teach you how to pass a test!
dorian said
04:34 PM Jun 20, 2020
bgt wrote:
Way back too many years ago I studied for a degree that included economics. I disagreed with the premise that was being taught to me. All left wing economics. I approached my department head with the issue. His response was to 'give the answers they want and not what you think'. So no open discussion. Nothing has changed.
The economics exam paper is the same every year, but the answers are different.
Whenarewethere said
05:55 PM Jun 20, 2020
Exactly!
dorian said
05:54 AM Jun 21, 2020
Ironically we have a capitalist government which seeks to devalue something by increasing its price. That's a lesson in economics in itself.
Izabarack said
01:57 PM Jun 21, 2020
Right wing oriented Government policy is for Uni to be a place of vocational training (job training). Left wing oriented Government policy is that the skills learned in the pursuit of knowledge to flow on and into the creation of a more desirable and inclusive society (Socialism). The problem for government is that staff at Uni do not change just because there has been a change of Government. I have sat through many a staff room discussion of how a new government wants to change the emphasis from knowledge based outcomes to competency based outcomes for graduates. I would like to see a return to places at Uni going to those who are good enough to completed the academic requirements.
Iza
msg said
02:43 PM Jun 21, 2020
Yes Izabarack. That's the whole problem. Job training should be left to the TAFE Colleges. This does not mean that degrees cannot still be earned. When I was employing Accounting Staff I much preferred the students who had come through the TAFE system rather than the ANU. They seemed to have a more practical outlook. I myself did both so I knew the differences in both courses. What I don't like is the concept of those superficial certificates. You know Certificate 4 in... Certificate 2 in.... The training should be career orientated like "I want to do the course in Accounting and become an accountant with all the professional requirements". Not just a Certificate 2 in Financial Management. (if there is one)
-- Edited by msg on Sunday 21st of June 2020 02:50:02 PM
dorian said
03:54 PM Jun 21, 2020
ISTM that the objectives of a university education should be to advance the nation. To this end we should be producing graduates who can improve our collective quality of life and our competitiveness on the world stage. AISI the STEM professions are the foundations on which a prosperous society is built and they should be our focus. Stuff like philosophy and sociology are just self indulgences that are of little benefit to the wider community.
IMO university should remain a place of vocational training for the academically gifted, and TAFE should continue to provide the training for those with manual aptitudes. For example, let mechanical engineers (our future car designers) learn their theory at university, and put the mechanics (our future car repairers) through TAFE.
Mike Harding said
01:16 PM Jun 22, 2020
dorian wrote:
Stuff like philosophy and sociology are just self indulgences that are of little benefit to the wider community.
The government recently announced that the fees for STEM courses will be reduced and those for humanities courses doubled. I guess an accomplished spin doctor could argue that the humanities are now being valued more highly than technical professions.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-19/university-fees-tertiary-education-overhaul-course-costs/12367742
I recall back in the late sixties I finished high school and was fortunate to obtain a place at University. In those days there were just two in NSW, Sydney and Uni of NSW. To be able to attend university in those days one needed to have sufficient grades and matriculation to be granted what was known as a Commonwealth Scholarship which paid your fees, helped with books etc and that was about it. Income was supplemented by working at the local pub or driving a taxi and then obtaining a job at Dept of Main Roads or local council as a labourer for the summer break.
In those days it was rare to see anyone who was not an Australian citizen. There were a few people from overseas that were here on Australian Government schemes like the Columbo Plan where bright students from poorer nations were given the opportunity to study and then be able to return to their country and assist their citizens.
I recall in those days people who wanted to pursue a career that needed tertiary qualifications remained at school until Year 12 whilst those that wanted a trades career left in Year 10 and were either apprenticed and or went to a technical college.
All that is now changed. Absolute thousands attend universities to obtain degrees that are meaningless career wise. The universities are big business with the major feature being how to attract overseas students who will pay the full fees. Go to any university and you would not know which country you were in. It now seems we have faculties and professors for every minority group and study all thinking they are about to save the world.
I am glad that I now just drive around in my caravan with the odd guest locum appearance in my chosen field and not be a part of all that. We were the lucky ones.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Saturday 20th of June 2020 11:15:42 AM
Even back then the overseas students were beginning to be sought out as cash cows and attitudes were pro China. I can remember when I had to do an assignment about the recession ( 90's?) before THE big one. I took the line that China was the cause (like so much of the media and empirical evidence) I have never had so many red pen derogatory statements on an assignment in my life and was quite cut up about it. Needless to say it gained an F. It turned out that the tutor was about to travel to China to attend a series of seminars. I have only just realised the connection. lol.
If you notice, the new fee structure is still focused on money. Most of the overseas students want business or doctors degrees. So the Uni's honey pot will not be upset. Those overseas students will get visas and go on to be the future captains of Australian economy while the Aussie students (whilst nursing and teaching in my opinion are more admirable ) will be relegated to less powerful and influential careers unless they have rich parents.
I think Uni's should remain places of learning rather than glorified job training centres. Still no hope for a future Australia.
Whilst I essentially agree Dmaxer I suggest a wholesome society needs writers, poets, philosophers etc in addition to scientists, engineers, doctors and (God forbid!) lawyers :) - and most will have a good idea which side of that fence my career has followed.
It seems to me (having put two through uni and watched dozens) that outside the core subjects most degrees nowadays not worth the paper upon which they are mass printed.
School education standards in Australia are generally poor and universities often find they need to teach new students the basics before they have a hope of starting degree level education.
I suggest we return to streaming children at 11 with a later path into higher education for children who bloom a little older - however as we have destroyed much of our industry I have no idea what jobs we can provide for those youngsters who, previously, would have gone into unskilled work?
Agree
The same as when I got lessons for my driver's licence. The instructor said I am not going to teach you how to drive. Shock & Horror! I am going to teach you how to pass a test!
The economics exam paper is the same every year, but the answers are different.
Exactly!
Iza
Yes Izabarack. That's the whole problem. Job training should be left to the TAFE Colleges. This does not mean that degrees cannot still be earned. When I was employing Accounting Staff I much preferred the students who had come through the TAFE system rather than the ANU. They seemed to have a more practical outlook. I myself did both so I knew the differences in both courses. What I don't like is the concept of those superficial certificates. You know Certificate 4 in... Certificate 2 in.... The training should be career orientated like "I want to do the course in Accounting and become an accountant with all the professional requirements". Not just a Certificate 2 in Financial Management. (if there is one)
-- Edited by msg on Sunday 21st of June 2020 02:50:02 PM
IMO university should remain a place of vocational training for the academically gifted, and TAFE should continue to provide the training for those with manual aptitudes. For example, let mechanical engineers (our future car designers) learn their theory at university, and put the mechanics (our future car repairers) through TAFE.
Dorian: I am amazed you would write such.