Hi all, I work in solar research and I'm doing a project with an Australian company to integrate a caravan awning with flexible solar panels. I'd love to speak to anyone out there who caravans about their power use while caravanning, and their chosen power supply. Please comment below to get in touch if you have the time and interest to chat about this. Thank you! Jo
blaze said
05:11 PM Aug 12, 2019
I reckon 600w would be minimum
required, the down fall I see straight away is the angle of the awning. It would be very critical in getting the best sun, I feel flat on the roof would give a better charge over a day.
Best ofr luck in your research
cheers
blaze
T1 Terry said
12:06 PM Aug 13, 2019
If you can sort out the semi flexible panel grid separation from the modules due to heat, you will be on a winner no matter how much solar you can fit on the awning. I've been trying to sort this problem for 3 yrs and have come up with no real answer besides the way semi flexible solar panels are made leads to this problem. Rigid panels have the module laid first, then the grid soldered to it, semi flexible panels have the grid laid first, then the module placed on op of that. I think this limits the ability to make a secure contact by soldering the joints and the process of applying the cover solution allows some of this solution to make its way between the module and the grid. Heat causing uneven expansion finally separates a module from the grid and with no module bypass in place, the continuity from the panel negative to panel positive is lost.
Hard enough replacing failed roof mounted panels, I can't imagine how hard it would be to replace awning sewn in panels.
T1 Terry
Jyothi said
12:38 PM Aug 13, 2019
Hi Terry, thanks for your comment. The flexible solar technology I'm working on is a next generation organic thin film technology. See link below.
This technology shouldn't have the separation problem you have mentioned. Please let me know if you're available to chat further about this; I'm interested to hear how people who caravan produce and use their power, along with any pain points you're experiencing with the system you are using currently.
T1 Terry said
05:38 PM Aug 13, 2019
Interesting, hopefully they are a lot further ahead now than when they talked about using the royal mint presses to print solar panels. It was so long ago I thought they must have canned the idea. Then there was solar paint, solar roof tiles ... the list goes on and on. What was never explained was how the interaction between the different layers was linked into either positive or negative output/input so each module could be series linked to build a useful voltage without the current backflow destroying the weakest elements in the series string when there was an output open circuit. They worked under controlled conditions, small scale in the lab, but they never survived scaling up to commercial sized panels along with the mass production give or take half a brick tolerances.
The semi-flexible panels on the market at the moment use a very low loss diode type gate to stop any current backflow, but that is part of the cause of the failures. When an RV solar array charges an RV battery, there is no dump load involved, the solar array just gets switched open circuit, the open circuit voltage becomes so high it can push back through these weakened low loss gates creating a current path. The whole solar array potential current, multiplied by the maximum voltage it can produce that current at, if fed into this module in a virtual short circuit turning it into a heater. There are photos on another thread of thermal imaging showing the actually happening and a few photos of the result. In the semi flexible panels it simply destroys the already poor link between one of the modules and the grid within the panel. At this point there is no longer a circuit within that panel so the next weakest panel suffers the same fate.
Usually there will be 2 or 3 panels still functioning, they were the strongest and between them they can not create enough current at a high enough voltage to push through the gate and destroy the connection.
Fitting blocking diodes really helps, but it also adds a loss as the current passes through each blocking diode, the result, a less efficient panel and in a series string, the losses compound.
As far as useful solar array capacity to meet tomorrow's demands that is actually here now would be around the 1kW minimum. That can be a combination of roof mounted and deployable panels either as part of a roll out awning or even fold out window shades. The greater the capacity the greater the output in less than perfect solar conditions. Very rare to have a cloud free cool day with the sun passing directly over the panels, so what would theoretically be plenty of solar needs to be doubled or even tripled to suit winter down south travelling or mid summer top end travelling when it is really hot yet overcast.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
Craig1 said
05:51 PM Aug 13, 2019
Dont forget the constant expansion and contraction of current awning material, also the way they flex almost constantly with wind.
T1 Terry said
11:36 AM Aug 14, 2019
Craig1 wrote:
Dont forget the constant expansion and contraction of current awning material, also the way they flex almost constantly with wind.
Yes, the strain across the material when the get that whip up tears quality awning material, it would be a real test for flexible solar panel material.
Great if it can be achieved, the market will be huge. A gazebo using this type of cover would double as a shade house for eating and relaxing while the RV was parked in the shade, no risk of portable solar panels being stolen or the need to constantly move them because of the area involved and each face getting sun exposure as the sun travelled east/west throughout the day ... well the planet turned but you know what I mean :lol:
Great for those that travel in camper trailers and perfect for the revival of travelling in a Kombi Camper type vehicle. We parked our '74 Kombi under a fold out gazebo thing and that gave us an awning area as well and created a fly sheet type shade to keep the Kombi cool in summer and warm in winter, yet we could drop down the pop up roof and drive out leaving the whole thing still set up, then park back in after our site seeing/town trip.
T1 Terry
iana said
03:10 PM Aug 14, 2019
Hi Jo, We are a couple permanently on the road, our van is highly dependent on a reliable 12v source as we have a 12v fridge. At present we are running 3 x 145w solar panels, wired in series to a GSL MPPT60-1 solar controller to two 120 AH AGM batteries. We "Low cost / Free camp" often where we can. You can pm me if you need to know more. Regards Ian.
denmonkey said
11:39 AM Aug 21, 2019
Hey Jyothi,
is this associated to the Newcastle Uni?
I thought I heard on the radio about some new tech coming out for solar, similar to what you have described above.
It was a while ago now, so I may be off with the Newcastle bit.
Like others above, happy to help with info etc on my set up.
I think you will find most on here helpful and encouraging when it comes to anything that can be attached to a van :)
Especially when it comes to powering them.
Good luck with it and let us know what you need .
cheers Brett
Ge said
12:33 PM Aug 21, 2019
have i got this right you are trying to install a type of flexible solar panel on the awning now the question.
For this solar panel to be working the awning would have to be out yes/no.
if so it would only be of use if parked up for a long period with the awning out, that counts me out i hardly use mine.
Is this intended to be just a back up secondary solar system.
Sorry if some think my question seems dumb but that's the way i took the opening post.
Ge.
-- Edited by Ge on Wednesday 21st of August 2019 12:39:00 PM
Whenarewethere said
11:23 PM Aug 21, 2019
The awning I have on the side of the car, although nice to have & works well, we barely use it.
If one can make light weight awning solar fabric, then I would assume that this light weight awning material could then be used on the roof. As it would need to be lighter than a flexible panel as an awning or the awning structure will need to be made a lot heavier.
dabbler said
12:35 AM Aug 22, 2019
It's common to read about damaged awnings either through storm and wind or collision with stationary objects.
Orientation of solar panels is a major consideration in harvesting power and not just the angle of interface with sun but direction of van itself.
Together those two factors make the integration of the two components, awning and solar panel, less than favourable really.
Both are expensive elements and integration won't make them cheaper. It also won't reduce incidence if damage. The benefits would need to be enormous to outweigh increased costs and potential loss of two resources if damage occurs.
Interesting idea but not really workable in providing additional solar harvest.
My two cents anyway.
T1 Terry said
10:39 AM Aug 22, 2019
Whenarewethere wrote:
The awning I have on the side of the car, although nice to have & works well, we barely use it.
If one can make light weight awning solar fabric, then I would assume that this light weight awning material could then be used on the roof. As it would need to be lighter than a flexible panel as an awning or the awning structure will need to be made a lot heavier.
I think cooling might be a serious issue if you stretched the panel/sheet directly over the roof of the RV. As a flysheet would be a different story, not only keeping the RV cool and dry, it could harvest available sun and act as a summer roof, yet be rolled up and put away when travelling. A few design bits to sort, like how do you support the centre of the solar/summer roof, but maybe the method Aldi used for their curved awning for caravans and smaller RV's, fibreglass rods that connected into each other with a locating pouch each end and a tie affair along the length to hold the rods in place, or even a sleeve for them to slide into .... just lateral thinking here, no idea how practical it would be in operation
T1 Terry
Jyothi said
11:14 AM Aug 22, 2019
Hi Brett, this is similar technology to that studied at Newcastle Uni. We are a different group though and this work is not associated with UNSW.
Jyothi said
11:16 AM Aug 22, 2019
Hi Ge, yes the awning would need to be rolled out for this technology to work.
Jyothi said
11:20 AM Aug 22, 2019
Good point about the awning flexing in the wind Greg.
iana said
11:10 AM Aug 23, 2019
My thoughts would be to have the flexible panel separate from the awning, I say that because the awning is usually sloped, but may not be in the direction of the sun, we do not always have a choice. But to have a panel say 2.4 x 1 meter, with a sewn in rope to slide through a sail track, installing sail track on all 4 points of the van and ute canopy. Then it can be set up in the ideal direction to the sun, is not such a big wind sail i.e. can cope with wind gusts and can be left up without a worry.
I have already looked into this, but the opinions of this forum suggested present flex panels did not cope with this arrangement.
travelyounger said
03:09 PM Aug 23, 2019
could you try and get a solar panel that works off the moon that would be great
T1 Terry said
05:24 PM Aug 23, 2019
travelyounger wrote:
could you try and get a solar panel that works off the moon that would be great
Ahhhh, the magical Lunar panels :lol: I have actually seen a few amps from a super moon on my 1600w solar array, but I see more parked under Mercury vapour lights on the highway. Truck trailer exchange parks had them at one stage, they have swapped out to LED in a lot of them, much brighter and no solar charging from those buggas
T1 Terry
denmonkey said
12:43 PM Aug 26, 2019
Hey Jyothi, ,
ok mate, I thought it sounded familiar.
Nothing like a bit of healthy competition to move innovation along.
From the feedback above, it looks like there may be some hurdles.
Maybe you could remove them (relating to vans anyway) by taking a step back and just looking at the supply of a material that could be applied directly to the roof, the same way they are now.
Most are happy to give up that real estate on the top of their vans or rvs for the purpose of solar but with vans, weight is always an issue.
so maybe that could be your selling point vs the flexibility/roll up aspect .
I guess there's nothing saying you couldn't add some sort of roll out to the other side of where the awning is or off the back and get that to work.
Hi all, I work in solar research and I'm doing a project with an Australian company to integrate a caravan awning with flexible solar panels. I'd love to speak to anyone out there who caravans about their power use while caravanning, and their chosen power supply. Please comment below to get in touch if you have the time and interest to chat about this. Thank you! Jo
required, the down fall I see straight away is the angle of the awning. It would be very critical in getting the best sun, I feel flat on the roof would give a better charge over a day.
Best ofr luck in your research
cheers
blaze
Hard enough replacing failed roof mounted panels, I can't imagine how hard it would be to replace awning sewn in panels.
T1 Terry
Hi Terry, thanks for your comment. The flexible solar technology I'm working on is a next generation organic thin film technology. See link below.
https://www.csiro.au/showcase/NationalScienceWeek
This technology shouldn't have the separation problem you have mentioned. Please let me know if you're available to chat further about this; I'm interested to hear how people who caravan produce and use their power, along with any pain points you're experiencing with the system you are using currently.
Interesting, hopefully they are a lot further ahead now than when they talked about using the royal mint presses to print solar panels. It was so long ago I thought they must have canned the idea. Then there was solar paint, solar roof tiles ... the list goes on and on. What was never explained was how the interaction between the different layers was linked into either positive or negative output/input so each module could be series linked to build a useful voltage without the current backflow destroying the weakest elements in the series string when there was an output open circuit. They worked under controlled conditions, small scale in the lab, but they never survived scaling up to commercial sized panels along with the mass production give or take half a brick tolerances.
The semi-flexible panels on the market at the moment use a very low loss diode type gate to stop any current backflow, but that is part of the cause of the failures. When an RV solar array charges an RV battery, there is no dump load involved, the solar array just gets switched open circuit, the open circuit voltage becomes so high it can push back through these weakened low loss gates creating a current path. The whole solar array potential current, multiplied by the maximum voltage it can produce that current at, if fed into this module in a virtual short circuit turning it into a heater. There are photos on another thread of thermal imaging showing the actually happening and a few photos of the result. In the semi flexible panels it simply destroys the already poor link between one of the modules and the grid within the panel. At this point there is no longer a circuit within that panel so the next weakest panel suffers the same fate.
Usually there will be 2 or 3 panels still functioning, they were the strongest and between them they can not create enough current at a high enough voltage to push through the gate and destroy the connection.
Fitting blocking diodes really helps, but it also adds a loss as the current passes through each blocking diode, the result, a less efficient panel and in a series string, the losses compound.
As far as useful solar array capacity to meet tomorrow's demands that is actually here now would be around the 1kW minimum. That can be a combination of roof mounted and deployable panels either as part of a roll out awning or even fold out window shades. The greater the capacity the greater the output in less than perfect solar conditions. Very rare to have a cloud free cool day with the sun passing directly over the panels, so what would theoretically be plenty of solar needs to be doubled or even tripled to suit winter down south travelling or mid summer top end travelling when it is really hot yet overcast.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
Yes, the strain across the material when the get that whip up tears quality awning material, it would be a real test for flexible solar panel material.
Great if it can be achieved, the market will be huge. A gazebo using this type of cover would double as a shade house for eating and relaxing while the RV was parked in the shade, no risk of portable solar panels being stolen or the need to constantly move them because of the area involved and each face getting sun exposure as the sun travelled east/west throughout the day ... well the planet turned but you know what I mean :lol:
Great for those that travel in camper trailers and perfect for the revival of travelling in a Kombi Camper type vehicle. We parked our '74 Kombi under a fold out gazebo thing and that gave us an awning area as well and created a fly sheet type shade to keep the Kombi cool in summer and warm in winter, yet we could drop down the pop up roof and drive out leaving the whole thing still set up, then park back in after our site seeing/town trip.
T1 Terry
is this associated to the Newcastle Uni?
I thought I heard on the radio about some new tech coming out for solar, similar to what you have described above.
It was a while ago now, so I may be off with the Newcastle bit.
Like others above, happy to help with info etc on my set up.
I think you will find most on here helpful and encouraging when it comes to anything that can be attached to a van :)
Especially when it comes to powering them.
Good luck with it and let us know what you need .
cheers Brett
have i got this right you are trying to install a type of flexible solar panel on the awning now the question.
For this solar panel to be working the awning would have to be out yes/no.
if so it would only be of use if parked up for a long period with the awning out, that counts me out i hardly use mine.
Is this intended to be just a back up secondary solar system.
Sorry if some think my question seems dumb but that's the way i took the opening post.
Ge.
-- Edited by Ge on Wednesday 21st of August 2019 12:39:00 PM
The awning I have on the side of the car, although nice to have & works well, we barely use it.
If one can make light weight awning solar fabric, then I would assume that this light weight awning material could then be used on the roof. As it would need to be lighter than a flexible panel as an awning or the awning structure will need to be made a lot heavier.
I think cooling might be a serious issue if you stretched the panel/sheet directly over the roof of the RV. As a flysheet would be a different story, not only keeping the RV cool and dry, it could harvest available sun and act as a summer roof, yet be rolled up and put away when travelling. A few design bits to sort, like how do you support the centre of the solar/summer roof, but maybe the method Aldi used for their curved awning for caravans and smaller RV's, fibreglass rods that connected into each other with a locating pouch each end and a tie affair along the length to hold the rods in place, or even a sleeve for them to slide into .... just lateral thinking here, no idea how practical it would be in operation
T1 Terry
Hi Brett, this is similar technology to that studied at Newcastle Uni. We are a different group though and this work is not associated with UNSW.
Hi Ge, yes the awning would need to be rolled out for this technology to work.
Good point about the awning flexing in the wind Greg.
I have already looked into this, but the opinions of this forum suggested present flex panels did not cope with this arrangement.
could you try and get a solar panel that works off the moon that would be great
Ahhhh, the magical Lunar panels :lol: I have actually seen a few amps from a super moon on my 1600w solar array, but I see more parked under Mercury vapour lights on the highway. Truck trailer exchange parks had them at one stage, they have swapped out to LED in a lot of them, much brighter and no solar charging from those buggas
T1 Terry
ok mate, I thought it sounded familiar.
Nothing like a bit of healthy competition to move innovation along.
From the feedback above, it looks like there may be some hurdles.
Maybe you could remove them (relating to vans anyway) by taking a step back and just looking at the supply of a material that could be applied directly to the roof, the same way they are now.
Most are happy to give up that real estate on the top of their vans or rvs for the purpose of solar but with vans, weight is always an issue.
so maybe that could be your selling point vs the flexibility/roll up aspect .
I guess there's nothing saying you couldn't add some sort of roll out to the other side of where the awning is or off the back and get that to work.
keep us posted how its travelling
cheers Brett