I am buying a Blue Sky Tuscany van . ATM is 2900 kg and 180 ball weight and has Electronic Stability Control.
Tug is a D Max 4x4 .
Should I also fit a WDH ?
Duncan
Possum3 said
05:36 PM May 26, 2019
Ball weight too light, if that is an actual loaded weight definitely fit WDH.
sandsmere said
07:17 PM May 26, 2019
Yes. . . . You should have a WDH.
The Travelling Dillberries said
07:31 PM May 26, 2019
Duncan29 wrote:
I am buying a Blue Sky Tuscany van . ATM is 2900 kg and 180 ball weight and has Electronic Stability Control.
Tug is a D Max 4x4 .
Should I also fit a WDH ?
Duncan
G'Day Duncan,
I use the D-Max 4 x 4, 2016 5 speed. Tow ball weight is usually around 250kg (weighbridge verified). Carry some weighty gear in tub but forward over the wheels.
I stopped using a WDH 12 months ago.
Have travelled 8500km recently and certainly no issues. Rig sits almost level so with only 180kg (verify it, think you will be heavier) you may not need one, particularly if you balance the load correctly.
There is also the issue of ISUZU not warranting damage to vehicles that use one.
-- Edited by The Travelling Dillberries on Sunday 26th of May 2019 07:33:50 PM
rockylizard said
07:38 PM May 26, 2019
Gday...
There may be a valid need for an WDH but I think given the very limited information provided by Duncan, it is a little premature to be so 'certain' one is needed.
There are many things required to be determined and evaluated before recommending (insisting?) a WDH.
A WDH is most commonly used for long or heavy caravans. If your van is light, well-balanced, and has a light ball load, you probably dont need a WDH. To help you decide, you need to measure the front and rear unladen heights of the vehicle and the (level) front and rear heights of the caravan as this should give you the ideal scenario youre aiming to achieve. Measure your tow tugs wheel arches from the top centre of the wheel arch to a fixed point on the wheel. Measuring the van is a bit trickier because youll need to get the jockey wheel perfectly level. When you measure at the front side and rear side, you should come up with an identical figure. Then, when you hitch up the van, re-do your wheel-arch measurements to see if the difference is more than 20mm.
And apart from the above, one needs to know and understand the actual weights against the ratings of the van/vehicle and how that load is distributed through the van/vehicle.
Cheers - John
Phillipn said
08:05 PM May 26, 2019
Duncan29 wrote:
I am buying a Blue Sky Tuscany van . ATM is 2900 kg and 180 ball weight and has Electronic Stability Control.
Tug is a D Max 4x4 .
Should I also fit a WDH ?
Duncan
Question, is the ball weight 180 Kg with the van empty?, if so check the ball weight with the van loaded.
Yes, I would use a WDH, My WDH is also a sway control.
We have friends with a D Max and they use a WDH.
JayDee said
07:07 AM May 27, 2019
Would never leave home without the WDH. Great safety device.
Jay&Dee
Radar said
07:31 AM May 27, 2019
Duncan29 wrote:
I am buying a Blue Sky Tuscany van . ATM is 2900 kg and 180 ball weight and has Electronic Stability Control.
Tug is a D Max 4x4 .
Should I also fit a WDH ?
Duncan
I will not use WDH systems on out set up weighing in at 5.5 tonnes.
We set the tow vehicle suspension up to do the job of towing our caravan, a better out come all round.
Ron-D said
08:52 AM May 27, 2019
That ball weight is really light if thats fully loaded ,if the rear end of your tow vehicle hardly sinks ,maybe there is no need to transfer the weight forward,I met a guy recently that had the same car as my Mux,he had the rear suspension fitted with air bags,and did away with distribution hitch ,his thoughts were why would you want to push weight foreword on something thats practically dead level,and according to him the car handles great,my view is that most need them some dont.
yobarr said
10:49 AM May 27, 2019
Duncan29 wrote:
I am buying a Blue Sky Tuscany van . ATM is 2900 kg and 180 ball weight and has Electronic Stability Control.
Tug is a D Max 4x4 .
Should I also fit a WDH ?
Duncan
Hi Duncan....forget the WDH,but you must get your ball weight up to around 300kg.This will give you a GTM (Gross trailed mass,or weight on van axle group) of 2600kg,behind a car that can be loaded to a GVM of 3050kg.The weight on car wheels is then 15% more than the weight on the van wheels,and super-safe.The only thing you may have to watch is the weight on your cars rear axle,which is rated at only 1870kg,but all will be good if you load your car and van appropriately.WDH are generally used by those who try to make their car do things for which it was not designed.....and a WDH does a COMPLETELY different job from that done by airbags.A WDH transfers some weight from your cars rear axle to the cars front axle,but it also puts transfers weight onto your vans axle group.A WDH does NOT change your ball weight.Airbags simply jack the car up so it looks pretty,but they should NEVER be used with leaf springs,unless you are wanting to bend your chassis.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 27th of May 2019 04:20:24 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 27th of May 2019 06:15:07 PM
Pariss said
10:52 PM May 27, 2019
The GOLDEN rule to safe towing is to always have around 10-12% of the ATM as your Ball weight. So if your van has an ATM of 3000kg, your ball weight should be 300kg (or close ). If the ball weight is too little, sway and poor towing will result. With such a low ball weight as you have, the absolute LAST thing you want is a WDH which will lift even more weight off the rear of the vehicle and transfer some extra weight back to the van + tugs front wheels, leaving the rear wheels prone to wheel spin and loss of traction, especially on wet roads. You can load the van to get your ball weight close to 300kg. Also I would go buy a ball weight scale (around $65) to keep a check on the ball weight. Remember 10% of ATM ball weight rule, it is VERY important. !!
-- Edited by Pariss on Monday 27th of May 2019 10:54:41 PM
Hi Duncan, hopefully the most important advice you take away from all of the above is to balance your vehicle and van loads appropriately to start with. Using a WDH as a bandaid to compensate for poorly balanced loads can do more harm than good, both to your tow car and overall handling. Something doesn't sound quite right with your figures, I'm wondering (i.e. guessing) if your 180kg ball weight relates to the van's Tare weight rather than it's ATM? You can verify all the figures as they will be stamped on the van's compliance plate. As you increase weight up to the ATM, the ball weight needs to increase accordingly and as others have said, 10% is a good maxim. Also don't forget that the ball weight becomes part of the car payload calculation, not the van.
Whilst I am yet to read the whole post,it seems that the author (or Subaru?) has little understanding of how a WDH works. I refer to the paragraph....Some makers,like Subaru,limit the permissible towball load to a set figure (90kg for most models) and insist that if a Subaru is coupled to a trailer or caravan with a heavier towball load,the owner must fit weight distribution bars to pull the towball weight back to 90kg.......What a load of rubbish.WDH does NOT change towball weigh,but simply takes weight off the cars rear axle,with some of that weight being transferred to the cars front axle,and the rest to the trailers axle group.It is a sad state of affairs when the very people that caravanners may look to for advice about weights etc have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.Spare me! If towball weight is limited to 90kg,the trailer should not have an ATM above 900-1000kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers
iana said
08:30 PM May 29, 2019
My thoughts are that a weight distribution hitch can change the tow ball weight. Take for example a single axle caravan coupled to a vehicle that has a soft rear suspension. The caravan will sit coupled up with the tow bar/coupling, and the coupling is low.
The load of the caravan will be shared between the pivot point of the axle and the tow hitch, (i.e. tow ball weight). Establishing a positive tow ball weight will ensure that the center of gravity is forward of the wheels .
We fit a WDH which takes a flexible couping, and makes it semi ridged in the longitudinal plane. By putting tension on the hitch, the back of the vehicle (tug) is raised, which also lifts the tow ball. Which rotates about the axle.
This in turn moves the centre of gravity rearwards, and so must remove weight from the tow ball and adds it to the axle weight.
To take my point further, keep lifting the tow ball and eventually the C of G will move past the load center of the axle, and the whole thing will sit back on its self, there being no tow ball weight at all. Have we done this with a small trailer?
vince56 said
09:28 AM May 30, 2019
I am a fan of WDH and use a Hayman Reese unit. See this video which may help you: www.youtube.com/watch
Ron-D said
11:05 AM May 30, 2019
I rember a long long time ago when I was a very young my father had a 1960 Holden and our caravan when hitched to the car the nose of the car was pointed towards the sky,most were in those days very unsafe I suppose ,but most avoided accidents,now today were worried about a few mil out of alignment ,and quite rightly so I suppose but Back then everyone seemed to survive ...
Rip and Rosie said
12:27 PM May 30, 2019
First time I ever towed, was a station wagon with the front wheels as the drive wheels....yes, the nose of the car pointed to the stars.
Wet road, steering was awful.
Slammed on the brakes to emergency stop....and it went all over the road for a very long way before we stopped
Yes, everyone survived, but I will never ever do it again.
yobarr said
02:12 PM May 30, 2019
iana wrote:
My thoughts are that a weight distribution hitch can change the tow ball weight. Take for example a single axle caravan coupled to a vehicle that has a soft rear suspension. The caravan will sit coupled up with the tow bar/coupling, and the coupling is low.
The load of the caravan will be shared between the pivot point of the axle and the tow hitch, (i.e. tow ball weight). Establishing a positive tow ball weight will ensure that the center of gravity is forward of the wheels .
We fit a WDH which takes a flexible couping, and makes it semi ridged in the longitudinal plane. By putting tension on the hitch, the back of the vehicle (tug) is raised, which also lifts the tow ball. Which rotates about the axle.
This in turn moves the centre of gravity rearwards, and so must remove weight from the tow ball and adds it to the axle weight.
To take my point further, keep lifting the tow ball and eventually the C of G will move past the load center of the axle, and the whole thing will sit back on its self, there being no tow ball weight at all. Have we done this with a small trailer?
Hi Ian....interesting post,but absolutely incorrect.I will iterate that a WDH does NOT change towball weight. If you care to refer to books written by Collyn Rivers,a well recognised authority on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience in that field,you will see that what I have posted is fact.To test your theory,I suggest you head to a weighbridge with your car and van,fitted with a WDH.Leave the WDH untensioned,and drive the front wheels of the car into the weighbridge.Note weight,and then drive forward so both car axles are on weighbridge.Note that weight,then subtract front axle weight from total to get rear axle weight.Now drive forward until van axle group is on the weighbridge,and note total weight.Deduct car weight from total weight to get weight on van axle group.Now,reverse off weighbridge,tension the beloved WDH,and repeat all the above steps. You will see that the cars front axle weight has increased,the cars rear axle weight has decreased and the vans axle weight also has increased.The total weight will be exactly the same.A WDH does NOT change towball weight,even if tensioned to the stage (extreme!) that the rear wheels of the car left the ground. You no doubt have posted in good faith,but your assertions serve only to further increase confusion among those who dont understand weights,and to give false hope to those people who are hell-bent on trying to make their cars do things for which they are not designed.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 30th of May 2019 02:49:59 PM
yobarr said
03:03 PM May 30, 2019
Ron-D wrote:
I rember a long long time ago when I was a very young my father had a 1960 Holden and our caravan when hitched to the car the nose of the car was pointed towards the sky,most were in those days very unsafe I suppose ,but most avoided accidents,now today were worried about a few mil out of alignment ,and quite rightly so I suppose but Back then everyone seemed to survive ...
I agree...In the early 80s I towed a 30 foot van all over NSW with a CL Valiant! No WDH (what is a WDH?),no beefed-up springs,and no idea,but I was lucky.The front of the old Valiant pointed skyward at an alarming angle,with the towbar not far above ground level,and the whole outfit used to sway all over the place whilst travelling at 80km/hr.However,in those days,traffic travelled at a more leisurely pace,and all was good.The current hysteria about getting the car and van level is a nonsense,while getting axle rates right is more important,as is matching the car to the van.Too many buy a van that is WAY too big for their car,and then spend both time and money trying to make that car do things for which it was not designed.Ignorance is bliss.Like me,they will learn over time,but it s critical that,when people ask for advice,any advice given is factual and accurate.Cheers
Ron-D said
04:34 PM May 30, 2019
Yep weight distribution hitch as we all know simply by raising the tail of the vehicle transfers a share of the weight from the rear axel to the front with the aim of leveling the vehicle ,the old way was to measure the wheel arch drop so that front and rear dropped the same amount,maybe thats changed now?
Greg 1 said
08:07 PM May 30, 2019
Having towed various vans and things all over this continent for the last 48years with and without a WDH, I would not tow a large van without one.
You do not have to crank it up to the point of lifting the rear off the ground with the bars bent like a banana like I saw one gentleman in a 200 series cruiser today. If used correctly, there should still be considerable load on the rear wheels and only enough tension on the bars to add some positive weight to the front. I have proved this time and time again that you improve steering feel and response by a properly set up WDH.
My other relevant experience by the way, is as a test driver in the automotive industry as well as a technical background in that industry.
If you crank it up like today's example that I saw, then you will be in trouble.
There are a number of manufacturers such as Mitsubishi, who tell you not to leave home without one if you are towing more than a certain weight and with good reason.
First thing I would do is check what the manufacturer of your tow vehicle recommends before doing anything else.
Ron-D said
09:26 AM May 31, 2019
Could not agree more Greg ,with my car to avheive leveling the vehicle with my bars it would only leave with four links,too much tension,and when doing tight turns would pull the clamps out of position,six links the vehicle is slightly rear down and its perfect..
Gundog said
11:03 PM Jun 1, 2019
I have read a lot of drivel within this thread. First off I will not advise the OP as to use a WDH or not, but make the following observation Isuzu advise not to use a WDH with it's towing package, in which case I would suggest the OP contact Isuzu Australia for some clarification, if I had an aftermarket heavy duty tow bar and weight distribution hitch from a reputable manufacture ie Haymen Reece, if the vehicle remains within the weight limits would it be covered by warranty.
It's my humble opinion that the majority of people are over focused on tow ball weight that is stamped on the I'd plate rather than the actual TBW.
Ron-D said
08:47 AM Jun 2, 2019
Isuzu dont recommend a weight distribution hitch with there towbar,as they have not tested one on there bar thats in there booklet.The Haymen Reese bar is fitted to most Isuzu vehicles and in my opinion it it a lot more robust in construction,not fitting a weight distribution hitch to an Isuzu is a lot of BS,
sandsmere said
06:30 PM Jun 5, 2019
If you don't intend to use a WDH , check with your insurers.
I am buying a Blue Sky Tuscany van . ATM is 2900 kg and 180 ball weight and has Electronic Stability Control.
Tug is a D Max 4x4 .
Should I also fit a WDH ?
Duncan
Yes. . . . You should have a WDH.
G'Day Duncan,
I use the D-Max 4 x 4, 2016 5 speed. Tow ball weight is usually around 250kg (weighbridge verified). Carry some weighty gear in tub but forward over the wheels.
I stopped using a WDH 12 months ago.
Have travelled 8500km recently and certainly no issues. Rig sits almost level so with only 180kg (verify it, think you will be heavier) you may not need one, particularly if you balance the load correctly.
There is also the issue of ISUZU not warranting damage to vehicles that use one.
-- Edited by The Travelling Dillberries on Sunday 26th of May 2019 07:33:50 PM
Gday...
There may be a valid need for an WDH but I think given the very limited information provided by Duncan, it is a little premature to be so 'certain' one is needed.
There are many things required to be determined and evaluated before recommending (insisting?) a WDH.
http://www.withoutahitch.com.au/caravan/ask-expert-need-weight-distribution-hitch/
A WDH is most commonly used for long or heavy caravans. If your van is light, well-balanced, and has a light ball load, you probably dont need a WDH. To help you decide, you need to measure the front and rear unladen heights of the vehicle and the (level) front and rear heights of the caravan as this should give you the ideal scenario youre aiming to achieve.
Measure your tow tugs wheel arches from the top centre of the wheel arch to a fixed point on the wheel.
Measuring the van is a bit trickier because youll need to get the jockey wheel perfectly level. When you measure at the front side and rear side, you should come up with an identical figure.
Then, when you hitch up the van, re-do your wheel-arch measurements to see if the difference is more than 20mm.
And apart from the above, one needs to know and understand the actual weights against the ratings of the van/vehicle and how that load is distributed through the van/vehicle.
Cheers - John
Question, is the ball weight 180 Kg with the van empty?, if so check the ball weight with the van loaded.
Yes, I would use a WDH, My WDH is also a sway control.
We have friends with a D Max and they use a WDH.
Would never leave home without the WDH. Great safety device.
Jay&Dee
I will not use WDH systems on out set up weighing in at 5.5 tonnes.
We set the tow vehicle suspension up to do the job of towing our caravan, a better out come all round.
That ball weight is really light if thats fully loaded ,if the rear end of your tow vehicle hardly sinks ,maybe there is no need to transfer the weight forward,I met a guy recently that had the same car as my Mux,he had the rear suspension fitted with air bags,and did away with distribution hitch ,his thoughts were why would you want to push weight foreword on something thats practically dead level,and according to him the car handles great,my view is that most need them some dont.
Hi Duncan....forget the WDH,but you must get your ball weight up to around 300kg.This will give you a GTM (Gross trailed mass,or weight on van axle group) of 2600kg,behind a car that can be loaded to a GVM of 3050kg.The weight on car wheels is then 15% more than the weight on the van wheels,and super-safe.The only thing you may have to watch is the weight on your cars rear axle,which is rated at only 1870kg,but all will be good if you load your car and van appropriately.WDH are generally used by those who try to make their car do things for which it was not designed.....and a WDH does a COMPLETELY different job from that done by airbags.A WDH transfers some weight from your cars rear axle to the cars front axle,but it also puts transfers weight onto your vans axle group.A WDH does NOT change your ball weight.Airbags simply jack the car up so it looks pretty,but they should NEVER be used with leaf springs,unless you are wanting to bend your chassis.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 27th of May 2019 04:20:24 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Monday 27th of May 2019 06:15:07 PM
The GOLDEN rule to safe towing is to always have around 10-12% of the ATM as your Ball weight. So if your van has an ATM of 3000kg, your ball weight should be 300kg (or close ). If the ball weight is too little, sway and poor towing will result. With such a low ball weight as you have, the absolute LAST thing you want is a WDH which will lift even more weight off the rear of the vehicle and transfer some extra weight back to the van + tugs front wheels, leaving the rear wheels prone to wheel spin and loss of traction, especially on wet roads. You can load the van to get your ball weight close to 300kg. Also I would go buy a ball weight scale (around $65) to keep a check on the ball weight. Remember 10% of ATM ball weight rule, it is VERY important. !!
-- Edited by Pariss on Monday 27th of May 2019 10:54:41 PM
Whilst I am yet to read the whole post,it seems that the author (or Subaru?) has little understanding of how a WDH works. I refer to the paragraph....Some makers,like Subaru,limit the permissible towball load to a set figure (90kg for most models) and insist that if a Subaru is coupled to a trailer or caravan with a heavier towball load,the owner must fit weight distribution bars to pull the towball weight back to 90kg.......What a load of rubbish.WDH does NOT change towball weigh,but simply takes weight off the cars rear axle,with some of that weight being transferred to the cars front axle,and the rest to the trailers axle group.It is a sad state of affairs when the very people that caravanners may look to for advice about weights etc have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.Spare me! If towball weight is limited to 90kg,the trailer should not have an ATM above 900-1000kg.Safe and happy travels to all.Cheers
The load of the caravan will be shared between the pivot point of the axle and the tow hitch, (i.e. tow ball weight). Establishing a positive tow ball weight will ensure that the center of gravity is forward of the wheels .
We fit a WDH which takes a flexible couping, and makes it semi ridged in the longitudinal plane. By putting tension on the hitch, the back of the vehicle (tug) is raised, which also lifts the tow ball. Which rotates about the axle.
This in turn moves the centre of gravity rearwards, and so must remove weight from the tow ball and adds it to the axle weight.
To take my point further, keep lifting the tow ball and eventually the C of G will move past the load center of the axle, and the whole thing will sit back on its self, there being no tow ball weight at all. Have we done this with a small trailer?
I rember a long long time ago when I was a very young my father had a 1960 Holden and our caravan when hitched to the car the nose of the car was pointed towards the sky,most were in those days very unsafe I suppose ,but most avoided accidents,now today were worried about a few mil out of alignment ,and quite rightly so I suppose but Back then everyone seemed to survive ...
Wet road, steering was awful.
Slammed on the brakes to emergency stop....and it went all over the road for a very long way before we stopped
Yes, everyone survived, but I will never ever do it again.
Hi Ian....interesting post,but absolutely incorrect.I will iterate that a WDH does NOT change towball weight. If you care to refer to books written by Collyn Rivers,a well recognised authority on weights and dynamics,with over 60 years experience in that field,you will see that what I have posted is fact.To test your theory,I suggest you head to a weighbridge with your car and van,fitted with a WDH.Leave the WDH untensioned,and drive the front wheels of the car into the weighbridge.Note weight,and then drive forward so both car axles are on weighbridge.Note that weight,then subtract front axle weight from total to get rear axle weight.Now drive forward until van axle group is on the weighbridge,and note total weight.Deduct car weight from total weight to get weight on van axle group.Now,reverse off weighbridge,tension the beloved WDH,and repeat all the above steps. You will see that the cars front axle weight has increased,the cars rear axle weight has decreased and the vans axle weight also has increased.The total weight will be exactly the same.A WDH does NOT change towball weight,even if tensioned to the stage (extreme!) that the rear wheels of the car left the ground. You no doubt have posted in good faith,but your assertions serve only to further increase confusion among those who dont understand weights,and to give false hope to those people who are hell-bent on trying to make their cars do things for which they are not designed.Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 30th of May 2019 02:49:59 PM
I agree...In the early 80s I towed a 30 foot van all over NSW with a CL Valiant! No WDH (what is a WDH?),no beefed-up springs,and no idea,but I was lucky.The front of the old Valiant pointed skyward at an alarming angle,with the towbar not far above ground level,and the whole outfit used to sway all over the place whilst travelling at 80km/hr.However,in those days,traffic travelled at a more leisurely pace,and all was good.The current hysteria about getting the car and van level is a nonsense,while getting axle rates right is more important,as is matching the car to the van.Too many buy a van that is WAY too big for their car,and then spend both time and money trying to make that car do things for which it was not designed.Ignorance is bliss.Like me,they will learn over time,but it s critical that,when people ask for advice,any advice given is factual and accurate.Cheers
Yep weight distribution hitch as we all know simply by raising the tail of the vehicle transfers a share of the weight from the rear axel to the front with the aim of leveling the vehicle ,the old way was to measure the wheel arch drop so that front and rear dropped the same amount,maybe thats changed now?
Could not agree more Greg ,with my car to avheive leveling the vehicle with my bars it would only leave with four links,too much tension,and when doing tight turns would pull the clamps out of position,six links the vehicle is slightly rear down and its perfect..
Isuzu dont recommend a weight distribution hitch with there towbar,as they have not tested one on there bar thats in there booklet.The Haymen Reese bar is fitted to most Isuzu vehicles and in my opinion it it a lot more robust in construction,not fitting a weight distribution hitch to an Isuzu is a lot of BS,
If you don't intend to use a WDH , check with your insurers.
Some insist on it apparently.