A few days ago an electric bike being recharged overnight exploded in a fireball which destroyed the house. A few weeks ago a battery pack used to recharge mobile phones and computers or even jump start a vehicle was left on the front passenger seat in an SUV in full sunshine and it caught fire, the driver just managed to escape with her children before the SUV caught full alight.
Which leads to the mounting of mobile phones on windscreens with little to shield the device from heat. I have such a mounting but now use the holder only when I need extra antenna range and the ret of the time I keep my device in the shade and use the bluetooth system only.
I read a comment posted by an electrical engineer now retired who was once involved in RAAF aircraft battery maintenance and later in electricity generation, power stations. Batteries can be very dangerous, as motorists are hopefully aware of taking precautions when jump starting another vehicle. With the transition to pure electric vehicles (hybrids have much smaller battery packs and as far as I am aware do not use lithium ion batteries), and the sale of home power walls, the safety issues must be considered. Lithium ion batteries fires cannot be extinguished with standard fire extinguishers, large amounts of water are needed to cool them down before dealing with the fire. So energy packs that can drive a vehicle even a couple of hundred kilometres in between charging are potentially very dangerous. Not only from heat but also from impact. Recharging using a rapid charger on a hot summer day has to be considered dangerous.
"Lithium ion" covers about 5 different lithium battery chemistries. They are NOT all the same.
Cheers,
Peter
dabbler said
01:59 PM Apr 30, 2019
Almost every incidence of battery fire/explosion is linked to faulty charging, either cabling or device usually when a cheap knockoff is in use. There are exceptions off course but they represent a tiny proportion. Ambient heat does play a part but only when something is already faulty. On the issue of vehicle fire/explosion, US govt reports show there was 1 EV fire for every 52000 gasoline fires between 2010 and 2018. I can't find an equivalent figure for EV ownership over the same period but 2015 to 2018 about 230 EV were on the roads for every 52000 gasoline vehicles in the US. It appears almost all EV fires are related to accident. While newer technology has newer issues, the evidence so far is we will actually be safer in an EV fleet.
markf said
10:40 AM May 1, 2019
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
"Lithium ion" covers about 5 different lithium battery chemistries. They are NOT all the same. Cheers, Peter
No they're not. Some types (LifePO4 for example) can take a fair bit of abuse before the become dangerous. Other types only take a minor amount of mistreatment before they start behaving badly. The other thing to remember about Lithium cells is that they are very energy dense - a whole lot of energy confined in a small space. Once it starts to get out in an uncontrolled manner the best thing to do is stand well back and watch...
I believe that the real issues is with education regarding the do's and don'ts of Lithium cells. Let's face it we have years and years of experience with Lead Acid cells and the do's and don'ts are pretty well understood. LA is also a much more forgiving chemistry to deal with and can stand an incredible amount of abuse. Lithium not so much.
Jaahn said
04:23 PM May 1, 2019
Hi
Some thoughts on Lithium batteries in my life ?? I have had several phones of normal quality. Indeed lots of them now I think on it. I carry them in my pocket or bag without a second thought. I charge them on the desk top beside me ! I have had lithium power tools for perhaps 10 years. A good brand. Use them freely in my hand, charge them on the bench, sometimes overnight. I do not worry about them !! I have some proper lithium batteries x2 in a battery box for a portable power supply and jump starter that I constructed for my use. I charge them from the vehicle battery system. I carry it around to use it etc and put it in the vehicle with ourselves.
Should I be more worried by the 'stories' of doom and gloom. Should i construct a fire proof box for them all. Should I buy some patented gimmick to protect us from all these hazards ! Or should I just carry on with common sense and normal ways of avoiding problems. Hmmm........
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 1st of May 2019 04:26:42 PM
Knight said
12:52 PM May 2, 2019
Jaahn wrote:
Hi
Some thoughts on Lithium batteries in my life ?? I have had several phones of normal quality. Indeed lots of them now I think on it. I carry them in my pocket or bag without a second thought. I charge them on the desk top beside me ! I have had lithium power tools for perhaps 10 years. A good brand. Use them freely in my hand, charge them on the bench, sometimes overnight. I do not worry about them !! I have some proper lithium batteries x2 in a battery box for a portable power supply and jump starter that I constructed for my use. I charge them from the vehicle battery system. I carry it around to use it etc and put it in the vehicle with ourselves.
Should I be more worried by the 'stories' of doom and gloom. Should i construct a fire proof box for them all. Should I buy some patented gimmick to protect us from all these hazards ! Or should I just carry on with common sense and normal ways of avoiding problems. Hmmm........
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 1st of May 2019 04:26:42 PM
Short answer in reply .... what is more dangerous, one litre of petrol or 1,000 litres of petrol underneath you in a vehicle?
A few days ago an electric bike being recharged overnight exploded in a fireball which destroyed the house. A few weeks ago a battery pack used to recharge mobile phones and computers or even jump start a vehicle was left on the front passenger seat in an SUV in full sunshine and it caught fire, the driver just managed to escape with her children before the SUV caught full alight.
Which leads to the mounting of mobile phones on windscreens with little to shield the device from heat. I have such a mounting but now use the holder only when I need extra antenna range and the ret of the time I keep my device in the shade and use the bluetooth system only.
I read a comment posted by an electrical engineer now retired who was once involved in RAAF aircraft battery maintenance and later in electricity generation, power stations. Batteries can be very dangerous, as motorists are hopefully aware of taking precautions when jump starting another vehicle. With the transition to pure electric vehicles (hybrids have much smaller battery packs and as far as I am aware do not use lithium ion batteries), and the sale of home power walls, the safety issues must be considered. Lithium ion batteries fires cannot be extinguished with standard fire extinguishers, large amounts of water are needed to cool them down before dealing with the fire. So energy packs that can drive a vehicle even a couple of hundred kilometres in between charging are potentially very dangerous. Not only from heat but also from impact. Recharging using a rapid charger on a hot summer day has to be considered dangerous.
The following article is interesting ...
https://www.electronicdesign.com/boards/keep-eye-temperature-trends-during-li-ion-battery-charge-and-discharge-cycles
Cheers,
Peter
No they're not. Some types (LifePO4 for example) can take a fair bit of abuse before the become dangerous. Other types only take a minor amount of mistreatment before they start behaving badly. The other thing to remember about Lithium cells is that they are very energy dense - a whole lot of energy confined in a small space. Once it starts to get out in an uncontrolled manner the best thing to do is stand well back and watch...
I believe that the real issues is with education regarding the do's and don'ts of Lithium cells. Let's face it we have years and years of experience with Lead Acid cells and the do's and don'ts are pretty well understood. LA is also a much more forgiving chemistry to deal with and can stand an incredible amount of abuse. Lithium not so much.
Hi
Some thoughts on Lithium batteries in my life ?? I have had several phones of normal quality. Indeed lots of them now I think on it. I carry them in my pocket or bag without a second thought. I charge them on the desk top beside me !
I have had lithium power tools for perhaps 10 years. A good brand. Use them freely in my hand, charge them on the bench, sometimes overnight. I do not worry about them !!
I have some proper lithium batteries x2 in a battery box for a portable power supply and jump starter that I constructed for my use. I charge them from the vehicle battery system. I carry it around to use it etc and put it in the vehicle with ourselves. 
Should I be more worried by the 'stories' of doom and gloom. Should i construct a fire proof box for them all. Should I buy some patented gimmick to protect us from all these hazards ! Or should I just carry on with common sense and normal ways of avoiding problems. Hmmm........
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 1st of May 2019 04:26:42 PM
Short answer in reply .... what is more dangerous, one litre of petrol or 1,000 litres of petrol underneath you in a vehicle?