With all the discussion about electric vehicles and related energy I found this very interesting technically based and none political US article that people might be interest in reading:
So is replacing all the horses with motor vehicles.
It will never happen.
Cheers,
Peter
Kebbin said
02:02 PM Apr 10, 2019
Hardly a non political organisation.
Jimmy Kwaka said
04:46 PM Apr 10, 2019
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
So is replacing all the horses with motor vehicles. It will never happen. Cheers, Peter
I see you can carry 280 litres of fuel in your rig Peter. Now I wonder...what weight would a battery pack be to give you the same range you have now? And how long to charge it? And in the event of an accident and a fire that massive weight of batteries is going to take some doing to render it safe. Let me be clear...I think so called green energy has a place, but reality bites hard. There is no way you could have the range, the versatility or the sheer convenience that diesel gives you. Yes, technology may improve. But the laws of physics as the article points out will most likely rule out a rig like yours being feasible. Are you willing to give it up? And if you run out of battery in the middle of nowhere, a passing fellow outbacker cannot lend you some diesel to get you going again can they? No, I am not a fan, because green energy is a hugely political issue, and as such I am not overly keen to put us in the hands of politicians who cannot see the forest for the solar panels they dream of installing.
Cheers, Jimmy.
Greystone said
05:51 PM Apr 10, 2019
The Manhattan institute is a conservative think tank which does not believe in climate change and supports the idea of a shale oil boom. Hardly credible when they talk about renewable energy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Research
Besides, the renewable energy and electric vehicle trains have left their stations. It's happening whether or not you believe in it.
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:57 PM Apr 10, 2019
Jimmy Kwaka wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
So is replacing all the horses with motor vehicles. It will never happen. Cheers, Peter
I see you can carry 280 litres of fuel in your rig Peter. Now I wonder...what weight would a battery pack be to give you the same range you have now? And how long to charge it?
Jimmy, long range vehicles will be driven by hydrogen powered fuel cells which makes the electrical power directly to power the electric drives. No batteries needed.
The hydrogen will be made using renewable electricity and is totally fossil fuel free. All known technology.
Filling with hydrogen will is very similar to filling with LPG, but you need less of it.
Cheers,
Peter
PeterX said
08:06 PM Apr 10, 2019
THE question is over what timeframe will the replacement happen?
dabbler said
08:28 PM Apr 10, 2019
PeterX, it's anticipated that with no govt intervention, EV sales in Australia will be 20-25% of the national fleet by 2030. Our govt can hasten this and make a transition less painful by dramatically increasing the number of recharge points. We currently see only 4 or 5 EV makes/models in Australia but there are over 45 in the world with more options and lower costs.
Wizardofoz said
08:41 PM Apr 10, 2019
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Jimmy Kwaka wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
So is replacing all the horses with motor vehicles. It will never happen. Cheers, Peter
I see you can carry 280 litres of fuel in your rig Peter. Now I wonder...what weight would a battery pack be to give you the same range you have now? And how long to charge it?
Jimmy, long range vehicles will be driven by hydrogen powered fuel cells which makes the electrical power directly to power the electric drives. No batteries needed.
The hydrogen will be made using renewable electricity and is totally fossil fuel free. All known technology.
Filling with hydrogen will is very similar to filling with LPG, but you need less of it.
Cheers,
Peter
Gee, how history repeats itself...didnt the famous HINDENBURG use hydrogen with catastrophic results?
Haji-Baba said
09:30 PM Apr 10, 2019
During the "Jo Era" didn't some inventor have a Ford Sedan running on Hydrogen fuel front of the City Hall in Brisbane?
If my memory is correct most people scoffed at the idea then so what has changed since.
Maybe the rules have changed and the supply of oil based fuel is no longer acceptable.
Have Fun Haji-Baba
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:39 PM Apr 10, 2019
Wizardofoz wrote:
Gee, how history repeats itself...didnt the famous HINDENBURG use hydrogen with catastrophic results?
You don't think we have learned a few things in the last 100 years?
We use highly flammable gasses in our homes and in our cars and in our RVs every day with very few problems.
Petrol is an incredibly dangerous material.
There are already hydrogen powered vehicles on the road.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
09:39 PM Apr 10, 2019
But 62 out of 97 crew & passengers survived. A lot better than a lot of plane crashes.
I have been in the Zeppelin museum at Lake Constance. You get some idea of the size of these things been in the mock up. You wonder how anyone survived.
Yuglamron said
09:47 PM Apr 10, 2019
Maybe proponents of Hydrogen fuel cells should first look at how the Majority of bulk Hydrogen is produced at the moment. A tiny amount is produced using electrolysis, Most is produced using superheated steam at a 1000 degrees from methane and coal seam gas.
A bit like those people pushing Solar power. To produce enough power to make the solar panels present day renewables don't cut the mustard. To produce the Aluminium and the
Glass, renewables don't have the grunt. Even the plants manufacturing the photo voltaic cells need more grunt than renwables can muster.
Electricity and Hydrogen as fuel are great in theory but our practice needs perfecting.
Whenarewethere said
09:58 PM Apr 10, 2019
It takes 10 calories of fossil fuel to get 1 calorie of food on the table.
Mamil said
10:13 PM Apr 10, 2019
Some of the issues with renewable energy are real, and some are just in the mind. The real issues can be overcome with time and technology, but people won't change their minds.
I was working for a bank when the Internet first appeared. I suggested it could be a future channel for people doing their banking, but senior management dismissed the idea as laughable because they were convinced the internet would never be secure or reliable enough. We now take online banking for granted and I for one haven't visited a branch in ten years.
I'm sure everyone can think of similar examples from their own experience where the naysayers insisted it couldn't and shouldn't happen - but it did anyway! The same will happen with renewable energy and electric cars, ie. the next generation will just accept them as the new normal and wonder what all the fuss was about.
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 11th of April 2019 08:38:44 AM
dogbox said
07:47 AM Apr 11, 2019
dabbler wrote:
PeterX, it's anticipated that with no govt intervention, EV sales in Australia will be 20-25% of the national fleet by 2030. Our govt can hasten this and make a transition less painful by dramatically increasing the number of recharge points. We currently see only 4 or 5 EV makes/models in Australia but there are over 45 in the world with more options and lower costs.
our power grid is under stress now
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:58 AM Apr 11, 2019
dogbox wrote:
our power grid is under stress now
When you have hundreds of smaller generators creating power close to where it is needed, the grid pressures become much less.
Cheers,
Peter
dogbox said
02:38 PM Apr 11, 2019
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
dogbox wrote:
our power grid is under stress now
When you have hundreds of smaller generators creating power close to where it is needed, the grid pressures become much less.
Cheers,
Peter
until that happens the grid we have to live with is still under stress an we may start to get blackouts at times of excessive use
Greystone said
06:21 PM Apr 11, 2019
Or you can take control of your own generation. PV panels+ battery. No more bills and no blackouts.
rickeng said
09:07 AM Apr 12, 2019
Hydrogen gas does not liquefy, therefore it must be compressed. At around three thousand pounds per square inch, a container of half inch thick steel is needed to contain it, a "G" sized cylinder is not going to give you much range at all and a bank of cylinders, sufficient to give the same range as your diesel fuel tank would way more than your vehicle. The pressure regulators, valves and pipework would need to be at least half inch walled stainless steel. In the event of a high speed collision, the inertia of these fuel tanks would need to be arrested by some enormous shock absorption system. The possibility of a high pressure explosion in the event of a fire would be catastrophic and lastly, the compressors required to fill high pressure hydrogen cylinders are an oil free multi stage water cooled type and are enormously expensive and the cylinders themselves have to be cooled during filling, I have been in the compressor and gas industry all my life and have worked many similar projects, they all end up too costly and too dangerous for widespread use.
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:27 AM Apr 12, 2019
There are those who say it can't be done while at the same time it is already happening.
There are already hydrogen powered trucks with a 2,000km range.
Electric aircraft are not far behind.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:35 AM Apr 12, 2019
In the US, Shell has a network of 35 (HYDROGEN) refueling stations in California and is set to increase it to 100 in the next two years, making it an increasingly viable fuel for even more types of vehicles
Exactly. Why is nobody talking about nuclear fusion? When this technology becomes available, it should be extremely cheap and completely clean, and the need for alternatives of any kind (for residential and commercial users) should disappear.
Dick0 said
03:57 PM Apr 14, 2019
Throw all this EV and Hydrogen alternate energy out the window.
It won't happen in your lifetime to tow 3-3.5 tonne caravans with this technology.
And it won't happen with the next Generation because they are not interested in Caravans/RV's as the Baby Boomers (us/we) are.
The next breakthrough will be...
Anti-gravity...which will solve all towing problems!
Tony Bev said
01:08 AM Apr 16, 2019
dorian wrote:
Extraordinary Rendition wrote:
Nukes can get it done.
Exactly. Why is nobody talking about nuclear fusion? When this technology becomes available, it should be extremely cheap and completely clean, and the need for alternatives of any kind (for residential and commercial users) should disappear.
I think that they have been talking about nuclear fusion, for as long as nuclear fission, has been around, Dorian
For me, the jury is still out, if nuclear fusion is
Still in the too hard basket or if
The powers that be, do not want it, as it is not much good for making nuclear weapons
I agree that if they crack nuclear fusion, and it works outside the laboratory, then all our electric grid problems are solved
Jaahn said
04:50 AM Apr 16, 2019
Tony Bev wrote:
dorian wrote:
Extraordinary Rendition wrote:
Nukes can get it done.
Exactly. Why is nobody talking about nuclear fusion? When this technology becomes available, it should be extremely cheap and completely clean, and the need for alternatives of any kind (for residential and commercial users) should disappear.
I think that they have been talking about nuclear fusion, for as long as nuclear fission, has been around, Dorian
For me, the jury is still out, if nuclear fusion is
Still in the too hard basket or if
The powers that be, do not want it, as it is not much good for making nuclear weapons
I agree that if they crack nuclear fusion, and it works outside the laboratory, then all our electric grid problems are solved
Hi
Fusion is a mirage at the moment. Perhaps it will be the future but as far as i can see there is actually NO ONE who has made it work for longer than a micro second. Some have claimed to but it was not able to be replicated. So the current state of play is just a good theory !
Lets move on with the technology that can work and does work, even if imperfectly.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Tuesday 16th of April 2019 04:52:42 AM
Jaahn said
04:58 AM Apr 16, 2019
Haji-Baba wrote:
During the "Jo Era" didn't some inventor have a Ford Sedan running on Hydrogen fuel front of the City Hall in Brisbane?
If my memory is correct most people scoffed at the idea then so what has changed since.
Maybe the rules have changed and the supply of oil based fuel is no longer acceptable.
Have Fun Haji-Baba
Hi
From my memory that Ford was supposed to be running on water. Jo would believe any old crap if he thought there was a vote in it. Hard to believe now. Even the dodgey pollies we have now are not as bad as that.
Jaahn
Knight said
01:35 PM Apr 16, 2019
Jaahn wrote:
Haji-Baba wrote:
During the "Jo Era" didn't some inventor have a Ford Sedan running on Hydrogen fuel front of the City Hall in Brisbane?
If my memory is correct most people scoffed at the idea then so what has changed since.
Maybe the rules have changed and the supply of oil based fuel is no longer acceptable.
Have Fun Haji-Baba
Hi
From my memory that Ford was supposed to be running on water. Jo would believe any old crap if he thought there was a vote in it. Hard to believe now. Even the dodgey pollies we have now are not as bad as that.
Jaahn
"Hydrogen gas was first artificially produced in the early 16th century by the reaction of acids on metals. In 176681,Henry Cavendishwas the first to recognize that hydrogen gas was a discrete substance,and that it produces water when burned, the property for which it was later named: in Greek, hydrogen means "water-former"."
With all the discussion about electric vehicles and related energy I found this very interesting technically based and none political US article that people might be interest in reading:
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/green-energy-revolution-near-impossible
It will never happen.
Cheers,
Peter
I see you can carry 280 litres of fuel in your rig Peter. Now I wonder...what weight would a battery pack be to give you the same range you have now? And how long to charge it? And in the event of an accident and a fire that massive weight of batteries is going to take some doing to render it safe. Let me be clear...I think so called green energy has a place, but reality bites hard. There is no way you could have the range, the versatility or the sheer convenience that diesel gives you. Yes, technology may improve. But the laws of physics as the article points out will most likely rule out a rig like yours being feasible. Are you willing to give it up? And if you run out of battery in the middle of nowhere, a passing fellow outbacker cannot lend you some diesel to get you going again can they? No, I am not a fan, because green energy is a hugely political issue, and as such I am not overly keen to put us in the hands of politicians who cannot see the forest for the solar panels they dream of installing.
Cheers, Jimmy.
Jimmy, long range vehicles will be driven by hydrogen powered fuel cells which makes the electrical power directly to power the electric drives. No batteries needed.
The hydrogen will be made using renewable electricity and is totally fossil fuel free. All known technology.
Filling with hydrogen will is very similar to filling with LPG, but you need less of it.
Cheers,
Peter
Gee, how history repeats itself...didnt the famous HINDENBURG use hydrogen with catastrophic results?
During the "Jo Era" didn't some inventor have a Ford Sedan running on Hydrogen fuel front of the City Hall in Brisbane?
If my memory is correct most people scoffed at the idea then so what has changed since.
Maybe the rules have changed and the supply of oil based fuel is no longer acceptable.
Have Fun Haji-Baba
You don't think we have learned a few things in the last 100 years?
We use highly flammable gasses in our homes and in our cars and in our RVs every day with very few problems.
Petrol is an incredibly dangerous material.
There are already hydrogen powered vehicles on the road.
Cheers,
Peter
But 62 out of 97 crew & passengers survived. A lot better than a lot of plane crashes.
I have been in the Zeppelin museum at Lake Constance. You get some idea of the size of these things been in the mock up. You wonder how anyone survived.
Maybe proponents of Hydrogen fuel cells should first look at how the Majority of bulk Hydrogen is produced at the moment. A tiny amount is produced using electrolysis, Most is produced using superheated steam at a 1000 degrees from methane and coal seam gas.
A bit like those people pushing Solar power. To produce enough power to make the solar panels present day renewables don't cut the mustard. To produce the Aluminium and the
Glass, renewables don't have the grunt. Even the plants manufacturing the photo voltaic cells need more grunt than renwables can muster.
Electricity and Hydrogen as fuel are great in theory but our practice needs perfecting.
It takes 10 calories of fossil fuel to get 1 calorie of food on the table.
Some of the issues with renewable energy are real, and some are just in the mind. The real issues can be overcome with time and technology, but people won't change their minds.
I was working for a bank when the Internet first appeared. I suggested it could be a future channel for people doing their banking, but senior management dismissed the idea as laughable because they were convinced the internet would never be secure or reliable enough. We now take online banking for granted and I for one haven't visited a branch in ten years.
I'm sure everyone can think of similar examples from their own experience where the naysayers insisted it couldn't and shouldn't happen - but it did anyway! The same will happen with renewable energy and electric cars, ie. the next generation will just accept them as the new normal and wonder what all the fuss was about.
-- Edited by Mamil on Thursday 11th of April 2019 08:38:44 AM
our power grid is under stress now
our power grid is under stress now
When you have hundreds of smaller generators creating power close to where it is needed, the grid pressures become much less.
Cheers,
Peter
until that happens the grid we have to live with is still under stress an we may start to get blackouts at times of excessive use
Hydrogen gas does not liquefy, therefore it must be compressed. At around three thousand pounds per square inch, a container of half inch thick steel is needed to contain it, a "G" sized cylinder is not going to give you much range at all and a bank of cylinders, sufficient to give the same range as your diesel fuel tank would way more than your vehicle. The pressure regulators, valves and pipework would need to be at least half inch walled stainless steel. In the event of a high speed collision, the inertia of these fuel tanks would need to be arrested by some enormous shock absorption system. The possibility of a high pressure explosion in the event of a fire would be catastrophic and lastly, the compressors required to fill high pressure hydrogen cylinders are an oil free multi stage water cooled type and are enormously expensive and the cylinders themselves have to be cooled during filling, I have been in the compressor and gas industry all my life and have worked many similar projects, they all end up too costly and too dangerous for widespread use.
There are already hydrogen powered trucks with a 2,000km range.
Electric aircraft are not far behind.
Cheers,
Peter
https://www.shell.com/make-the-future/cleaner-mobility/the-great-travel-hack/usa-landing-page/usa-fuels-and-vehicles-page.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=textad&utm_campaign=Corporate_AU_MakeTheFuture_Generic_Hydrogen_apr-mar_2020&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqZPE4qPJ4QIVjw4rCh2YBgFKEAMYASAAEgLoHfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Cheers,
Peter
Exactly. Why is nobody talking about nuclear fusion? When this technology becomes available, it should be extremely cheap and completely clean, and the need for alternatives of any kind (for residential and commercial users) should disappear.
Throw all this EV and Hydrogen alternate energy out the window.
It won't happen in your lifetime to tow 3-3.5 tonne caravans with this technology.
And it won't happen with the next Generation because they are not interested in Caravans/RV's as the Baby Boomers (us/we) are.
The next breakthrough will be...
Anti-gravity...which will solve all towing problems!
I think that they have been talking about nuclear fusion, for as long as nuclear fission, has been around, Dorian
For me, the jury is still out, if nuclear fusion is
or if
I agree that if they crack nuclear fusion, and it works outside the laboratory, then all our electric grid problems are solved
Hi
Fusion is a mirage at the moment. Perhaps it will be the future but as far as i can see there is actually NO ONE who has made it work for longer than a micro second. Some have claimed to but it was not able to be replicated. So the current state of play is just a good theory !
Lets move on with the technology that can work and does work, even if imperfectly.
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Tuesday 16th of April 2019 04:52:42 AM
Hi
From my memory that Ford was supposed to be running on water. Jo would believe any old crap if he thought there was a vote in it. Hard to believe now. Even the dodgey pollies we have now are not as bad as that.
Jaahn
"Hydrogen gas was first artificially produced in the early 16th century by the reaction of acids on metals. In 176681, Henry Cavendish was the first to recognize that hydrogen gas was a discrete substance, and that it produces water when burned, the property for which it was later named: in Greek, hydrogen means "water-former"."