Countering the caravan parks' campaign regarding so-called non compliant camping
Ozzie_Traveller said
09:54 AM Jan 25, 2019
G'day all
I am aware of various postings & comments on a variety of discussion forums about this topic, and so far, beyond some people saying "leave it to the CMCA" it seems that little is happening to protect our way of life
I would like to do something more than 'leave it to others' and am wondering whether there are others here with some fire-in-the-belly who would like to join me and share thinking caps and ideas
If you are such a person would you like to PM me or preferebly email me at "Ozzie_Traveller@Yahoo.com" and we can chat further on this topic
Safe Travels, Phil
blaze said
11:30 AM Jan 25, 2019
head out to the bush and I don't reckon the caravan parks will worry about you, you might not get views or a river bank but there are plenty of nice cheap/free places left
cheers
blaze
ps
I do all sort of resting/sleeping and camping, use swags on the side of the road and 24 foot van in top tourist parks, paid Zero to $60 a night.
life is really only for a moment in time, smile, enjoy and safe travels
brickies said
12:49 PM Jan 25, 2019
A precedent has been set in a court of law in Rockhampton no fire in the belly can do anything except a lot of money to challange the court decision .
rockylizard said
03:38 PM Jan 25, 2019
Gday...
Even CMCA I think have "re-focused" their efforts and are not really pushing for 'free camps' for travellers but are now negotiating for lease or access to land within urban environments that they will set up and maintain and provide to their members, complying members with 'fully contained' vehicles/vans, for $10 or so a night.
It is becoming increasing difficult for councils and communities to provide, along the east coast at least, free parking spaces for travellers to sleep at without considerable expense to ensure compliance with council regulations etc.
I doubt that 'fire in the belly' will persuade many, if any, councils to provide free sleeping spots in URBAN areas - particularly given the outcome of the Caravan Association's recent successful court case against the Rockhampton council's Kershaw Gardens.
cheers - but fill your boots and strength to your arm - John
Bobdown said
05:53 PM Jan 25, 2019
I'm all for free camping but am not aware of the caravan parks pushing for compliancy, Phil.
In the West there are certain councils that are dead set against it, Exmouth and Margaret River have strict No Camping signs everywhere, yet others encourage it and see the benefits to their towns.
Are the Caravan parks campaigning against Free camps or just want everybody self-contained ?
The ACC have made submissions to some Councils I've heard.
Feel free to contact me if you wish.
Cheers Bob
Whenarewethere said
06:58 PM Jan 25, 2019
When traveling around Australia a lot of the free camps I stayed at overnight were because I was too tired to drive. We are bombarded with ads to drive safely. As the ads make it abundantly clear driving while tired is the equivalent of drink driving, so I am not going to drive when I'm tired.
Ozzie_Traveller said
11:15 PM Jan 25, 2019
G'day all
There is a brand new 28 page document floating around titled "Non Compliant Camping - a toolkit for caravan park operators". The document makes many unsubstantiated claims about RV travel and the [alleged lack of] spending by RV travellers; it offers supposed case studies where trials of 'freedom camping' have been defeated, and offers suggestions to CP owners to approach local councils in certain ways to persuade those councils to refuse approvals for new non-commercial camping operations within the region
One [of many] extraordinary claims is "current research (source undocumented) demonstrates that whilst non-commercial camping is growing by market share, it is not due to increases in the demand for RV stopovers or free / low cost campsites. The increase ... is due to a) camping in national parks and b) camping on private property at events like music festivals and farm stays"
The 'worry' for many who have read the document is that - should this gain traction within the industry and pressure is put onto local councils to close existing camping reserves and refuse approvals for new reserves, where will we - or others in the future - end up? Maybe sitting around somewhere, squashed in like sardines and looking at cabins instead of the ocean!
Hope this helps
Phil
rockylizard said
07:18 AM Jan 26, 2019
Ozzie_Traveller wrote:
G'day all
There is a brand new 28 page document floating around titled "Non Compliant Camping - a toolkit for caravan park operators". The document makes many unsubstantiated claims about RV travel and the [alleged lack of] spending by RV travellers; it offers supposed case studies where trials of 'freedom camping' have been defeated, and offers suggestions to CP owners to approach local councils in certain ways to persuade those councils to refuse approvals for new non-commercial camping operations within the region
One [of many] extraordinary claims is "current research (source undocumented) demonstrates that whilst non-commercial camping is growing by market share, it is not due to increases in the demand for RV stopovers or free / low cost campsites. The increase ... is due to a) camping in national parks and b) camping on private property at events like music festivals and farm stays"
The 'worry' for many who have read the document is that - should this gain traction within the industry and pressure is put onto local councils to close existing camping reserves and refuse approvals for new reserves, where will we - or others in the future - end up? Maybe sitting around somewhere, squashed in like sardines and looking at cabins instead of the ocean!
Hope this helps Phil
Gday...
The document you refer to has been posted and discussed in another thread on the forum.
It brought out this document which assists government in provision of camping spots -
Firstly a precedent has now been set by the courts for free or low cost camping facilities in urban areas to either comply or close down. Sadly, in most cases, if they spend the money to make themselves compliant they will no longer be free or low cost.
Secondly if you were going to take up the challenge who would you lobby? Not the Councils because most of them are already in agreement with you and want free camping facilities. Certainly not the Parks Association because they are insisting that all camping facilities in urban areas must be compliant.
Remember the court ruling in the Kershaw Gardens case didn't say RCC could not provide free camping facilities, rather that if they do supply them they must be compliant. So maybe your best point of attack would be to lobby the Councils to spend $000's of ratepayers money to provide free camping. Good luck with that one. That would be like asking a caravan park that spends tens of thousands of dollars annually on rates,taxes and regulations to provide his services free.
Kebbin said
08:09 AM Jan 26, 2019
Once again well said and explained Montie.
iana said
08:26 AM Jan 26, 2019
What I would like to know, is "What is Compliant"? maybe this compliancy is just out of date, or out of touch.
Kebbin said
08:57 AM Jan 26, 2019
They (the council) must comply to the same regulations as anyone else ie Development Applications.
montie said
08:58 AM Jan 26, 2019
iana wrote:
What I would like to know, is "What is Compliant"? maybe this compliancy is just out of date, or out of touch.
Iana, all city councils have a town plan and regulations that cover all activities within that city and town plan. Any activity that does not meet those regulations is deemed non compliant.
iana said
09:19 AM Jan 26, 2019
So what are they?
Further there is no need to shout, everyone is crapping on about this, yet they don't know what it involves, DO YOU!
-- Edited by iana on Saturday 26th of January 2019 09:21:05 AM
Kebbin said
09:41 AM Jan 26, 2019
Who's shouting besides you Ian? If you want to really know google DA's.
montie said
09:45 AM Jan 26, 2019
iana wrote:
So what are they?
Further there is no need to shout, everyone is crapping on about this, yet they don't know what it involves, DO YOU!
-- Edited by iana on Saturday 26th of January 2019 09:21:05 AM
Wow!
I think you better find out for yourself Iana.
And I did not use capitals....happy Australia Day!
Court Ruling full transcript...answers all the questions but heavy reading.
-- Edited by montie on Saturday 26th of January 2019 10:58:53 AM
gordon_adl said
10:38 AM Jan 26, 2019
Imagine if you will, that you own a restaurant with a license to serve alcohol in a beautiful beach resort town. You own the business, not the building or the land, rather you rent that building from the local council. Think about how you, as a restaurant\bar owner are subject to constant food health inspections from a council employee, quarterly bas statements and many other rules and regulations.
Suddenly that same council opens a restaurant right next door to you, serving the same exact food and drinks as you. However, they are not held to any rules or regulations. They dont need to worry about food safety inspections, noise control or anything. All the wages to employees are paid for by the local residents of the council. Now imagine them giving this food and drinks for free, right next door to you, every night of the year.
What would your actions be? Now think about how the customers of the free restaurant suddenly start asking everyone and anyone to boycott the fee-based restaurant purely based on the fact that are asking the courts for the council to be held to the same standards as they must follow. How would you feel if you were that owner, hearing customers from the councils free restaurant saying they are at war with them?
TheHeaths said
02:39 PM Jan 26, 2019
Gordon, Montie and Kebbin (and others I have overlooked but agree with).
Please do not bring common sense, logic, actuality or any other form of comment into this discussion that doesn't agree with allowing unfettered access to freedom camping everywhere.
I agree with everything you raise, but this subject is too emotive for many to see both aspects of the matter.
All that ever happens is people's preferred positions get rehashed over and over, no-one agrees with anything from the other side of the discussion, and we revisit it again a week later.
Where would any forum be without Free camping, WDH and Weight discussions? Heaven forbid they are banned as all the forums would close.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 26th of January 2019 02:42:30 PM
Hewy54 said
03:15 PM Jan 26, 2019
gordon_adl wrote:
Imagine if you will, that you own a restaurant with a license to serve alcohol in a beautiful beach resort town. You own the business, not the building or the land, rather you rent that building from the local council. Think about how you, as a restaurant\bar owner are subject to constant food health inspections from a council employee, quarterly bas statements and many other rules and regulations.
Suddenly that same council opens a restaurant right next door to you, serving the same exact food and drinks as you. However, they are not held to any rules or regulations. They dont need to worry about food safety inspections, noise control or anything. All the wages to employees are paid for by the local residents of the council. Now imagine them giving this food and drinks for free, right next door to you, every night of the year.
What would your actions be? Now think about how the customers of the free restaurant suddenly start asking everyone and anyone to boycott the fee-based restaurant purely based on the fact that are asking the courts for the council to be held to the same standards as they must follow. How would you feel if you were that owner, hearing customers from the councils free restaurant saying they are at war with them?
At last an analogy that people will hopefully understand.
Well said.
LUCKY LOZ said
03:53 PM Jan 26, 2019
Seems to me that you just pay more at caravan parks for more services ,hot showers ,cleaned toilets, shop,ice, swimming pool, kids play areas etc.etc,and thats fine. But if you want free camping cheaply
and someone invites you in. Well why the hell not???
Remember what happened to the greedy Taxi drivers with Uber. Just saying!!!
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:58 PM Jan 26, 2019
Hewy54 wrote:
gordon_adl wrote:
Imagine if you will, that you own a restaurant with a license to serve alcohol in a beautiful beach resort town. You own the business, not the building or the land, rather you rent that building from the local council. Think about how you, as a restaurant\bar owner are subject to constant food health inspections from a council employee, quarterly bas statements and many other rules and regulations.
Suddenly that same council opens a restaurant right next door to you, serving the same exact food and drinks as you. However, they are not held to any rules or regulations. They dont need to worry about food safety inspections, noise control or anything. All the wages to employees are paid for by the local residents of the council. Now imagine them giving this food and drinks for free, right next door to you, every night of the year.
What would your actions be? Now think about how the customers of the free restaurant suddenly start asking everyone and anyone to boycott the fee-based restaurant purely based on the fact that are asking the courts for the council to be held to the same standards as they must follow. How would you feel if you were that owner, hearing customers from the councils free restaurant saying they are at war with them?
At last an analogy that people will hopefully understand.
Well said.
What about when that new "restaurant" doesn't supply the same food and drinks, in fact there is no staff and it does not supply anything and you have to bring your own chair and table and even your own toilet and wash your own dishes?
That is a better analogy to a free camp. It is not apples and apples.
Cheers,
Peter
Hewy54 said
05:46 PM Jan 26, 2019
What about when that new "restaurant" doesn't supply the same food and drinks, in fact there is no staff and it does not supply anything and you have to bring your own chair and table and even your own toilet and wash your own dishes?
That is a better analogy to a free camp. It is not apples and apples.
Cheers,
Peter
Yes I agree, but the problem is that people still have in their mind the idea of "free camping"
That new "restaurant" can offer a service, but the land is owned by someone and there needs to be some sort of compliancy and accountability otherwise it will go the way of many free camps.
I would be far happier to see the two types of facilities offered, one at a low cost so I can have the choice of which gets my patronage.
There is no such thing as a free camp as someone needs to maintain it.
I much prefer to use the term low cost camping.
Goldfinger said
06:47 PM Jan 26, 2019
Full circle....Low cost camping is what many need/want as an option.....however Caravan Parks don't want 'low cost camping' available, as an option...this is not unsurmountable...all
stakeholders need to liase.Business's, Travellers Representative Body, plus the Caravan Parks....continually increasing CP fees and reducing/removing travellers options is not sustainable,
and certainly not in the Commercial interests of Town's Business's.....Council Planning Regulations can be challenged/changed/varied by representation....I've been involved with it in the
past...Developers are well versed in obtaining zoning changes to Development plans....''need dictates changes will happen with Rural Farm stays etc...it won't be easy..but it will
happen.with meeting, not confrontation by all stakeholders......if CP's "enjoy" rates subsidy's....why can't Council Short Term stays be subsidized with rubbish removal etc. with resultant low
cost camping fees.....Town's business's will benefit.Local Chambers of Commerce is usually a positive start......it will happen, its more a matter of when?....by Organized Body's representing
all interests..... Hoo Roo .
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:24 PM Jan 26, 2019
Hewy54 wrote:
There is no such thing as a free camp as someone needs to maintain it.
I don't agree with that.
Most of the camps that we use have zero maintenance by anyone and are outside council areas.
So there is no justification for any fee.
The condition of those camps is entirely up to the users and it is important that the users take full responsibility for that and that is the bottom line.
Maintenance is only required if people are not self contained and don't take care of places.
Treat camps like they were your own back yard and the problem goes away.
Cheers,
Peter
Ron-D said
09:11 AM Jan 27, 2019
People these days as we all hnow with the modern rigs there fully self contained ,we only need a dump point,take for example Bulladela they offer tons of space for Rvs at cheap donation prices,that towns small shopping centre survives on the Rvs spending money in town,and they do ,the rates are so cheap people stay long enough to need supplies and spend money,the modern Rv does not need all the bells and whistles caravan parks offer so why be forced to pay for them,why not have areas set aside at sensible rates to cater for the modern Rv its should not be about lining the pockets of caravan park owners,or is it ,councils own lots of van parks and profit from them I suppose...
blaze said
06:39 PM Jan 27, 2019
Well and good to say that business in small town need the tourist to survive but in my 5 years on the road I found (my wife included), would say that's a $1 dearer, will wait and go to woollies or coles. I shop small shop and towns because if there is a traffic light the town is tooo big for me
cheers
blaze
Eaglemax said
10:56 PM Jan 27, 2019
The members that advocate "nothing is free" do you feel guilty when you arrive in a town and walk on the free footpath? Enjoy the free park gardens? The free beach or the free seats?
Ratepayers in every council in Oz pay for such maintenance of the above. So when a rv arrives in your town they use such free facilities paid by you. It goes hand in hand.
Ozzie_Traveller said
07:45 AM Jan 28, 2019
G'day everyone & thanks for your thoughts
ALL the discussion points raised above have been around for 'yonks' and well exposed in various forums & documents before this ~ but thanks anyway for revisiting them
At this point I am going to bow out of reviewing this thread and concentrate upon the issue with those people who have contacted me via email as the OP asked for
G'day all
I am aware of various postings & comments on a variety of discussion forums about this topic, and so far, beyond some people saying "leave it to the CMCA" it seems that little is happening to protect our way of life
I would like to do something more than 'leave it to others' and am wondering whether there are others here with some fire-in-the-belly who would like to join me and share thinking caps and ideas
If you are such a person would you like to PM me or preferebly email me at "Ozzie_Traveller@Yahoo.com" and we can chat further on this topic
Safe Travels, Phil
cheers
blaze
ps
I do all sort of resting/sleeping and camping, use swags on the side of the road and 24 foot van in top tourist parks, paid Zero to $60 a night.
life is really only for a moment in time, smile, enjoy and safe travels
Gday...
Even CMCA I think have "re-focused" their efforts and are not really pushing for 'free camps' for travellers but are now negotiating for lease or access to land within urban environments that they will set up and maintain and provide to their members, complying members with 'fully contained' vehicles/vans, for $10 or so a night.
It is becoming increasing difficult for councils and communities to provide, along the east coast at least, free parking spaces for travellers to sleep at without considerable expense to ensure compliance with council regulations etc.
I doubt that 'fire in the belly' will persuade many, if any, councils to provide free sleeping spots in URBAN areas - particularly given the outcome of the Caravan Association's recent successful court case against the Rockhampton council's Kershaw Gardens.
cheers - but fill your boots and strength to your arm - John
In the West there are certain councils that are dead set against it, Exmouth and Margaret River have strict No Camping signs everywhere, yet others encourage it and see the benefits to their towns.
Are the Caravan parks campaigning against Free camps or just want everybody self-contained ?
The ACC have made submissions to some Councils I've heard.
Feel free to contact me if you wish.
Cheers Bob
When traveling around Australia a lot of the free camps I stayed at overnight were because I was too tired to drive. We are bombarded with ads to drive safely. As the ads make it abundantly clear driving while tired is the equivalent of drink driving, so I am not going to drive when I'm tired.
There is a brand new 28 page document floating around titled "Non Compliant Camping - a toolkit for caravan park operators". The document makes many unsubstantiated claims about RV travel and the [alleged lack of] spending by RV travellers; it offers supposed case studies where trials of 'freedom camping' have been defeated, and offers suggestions to CP owners to approach local councils in certain ways to persuade those councils to refuse approvals for new non-commercial camping operations within the region
One [of many] extraordinary claims is "current research (source undocumented) demonstrates that whilst non-commercial camping is growing by market share, it is not due to increases in the demand for RV stopovers or free / low cost campsites. The increase ... is due to a) camping in national parks and b) camping on private property at events like music festivals and farm stays"
The 'worry' for many who have read the document is that - should this gain traction within the industry and pressure is put onto local councils to close existing camping reserves and refuse approvals for new reserves, where will we - or others in the future - end up? Maybe sitting around somewhere, squashed in like sardines and looking at cabins instead of the ocean!
Hope this helps
Phil
Gday...
The document you refer to has been posted and discussed in another thread on the forum.
It brought out this document which assists government in provision of camping spots -
https://www.ditid.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/148319/qdts-camping-options-toolkit.pdf
Cheers - John
Secondly if you were going to take up the challenge who would you lobby? Not the Councils because most of them are already in agreement with you and want free camping facilities. Certainly not the Parks Association because they are insisting that all camping facilities in urban areas must be compliant.
Remember the court ruling in the Kershaw Gardens case didn't say RCC could not provide free camping facilities, rather that if they do supply them they must be compliant. So maybe your best point of attack would be to lobby the Councils to spend $000's of ratepayers money to provide free camping. Good luck with that one. That would be like asking a caravan park that spends tens of thousands of dollars annually on rates,taxes and regulations to provide his services free.
Iana, all city councils have a town plan and regulations that cover all activities within that city and town plan. Any activity that does not meet those regulations is deemed non compliant.
So what are they?
Further there is no need to shout, everyone is crapping on about this, yet they don't know what it involves, DO YOU!
-- Edited by iana on Saturday 26th of January 2019 09:21:05 AM
Wow!
I think you better find out for yourself Iana.
And I did not use capitals....happy Australia Day!
thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t65165625/legal-ramifications-after-rockhampton-free-camp-closure/
For those who are interested the reasons for the courts decision are discussed here.
https://archive.sclqld.org.au/qjudgment/2018/QPEC18-052.pdf
Court Ruling full transcript...answers all the questions but heavy reading.
-- Edited by montie on Saturday 26th of January 2019 10:58:53 AM
Suddenly that same council opens a restaurant right next door to you, serving the same exact food and drinks as you. However, they are not held to any rules or regulations. They dont need to worry about food safety inspections, noise control or anything. All the wages to employees are paid for by the local residents of the council. Now imagine them giving this food and drinks for free, right next door to you, every night of the year.
What would your actions be? Now think about how the customers of the free restaurant suddenly start asking everyone and anyone to boycott the fee-based restaurant purely based on the fact that are asking the courts for the council to be held to the same standards as they must follow. How would you feel if you were that owner, hearing customers from the councils free restaurant saying they are at war with them?
Gordon, Montie and Kebbin (and others I have overlooked but agree with).
Please do not bring common sense, logic, actuality or any other form of comment into this discussion that doesn't agree with allowing unfettered access to freedom camping everywhere.
I agree with everything you raise, but this subject is too emotive for many to see both aspects of the matter.
All that ever happens is people's preferred positions get rehashed over and over, no-one agrees with anything from the other side of the discussion, and we revisit it again a week later.
Where would any forum be without Free camping, WDH and Weight discussions? Heaven forbid they are banned as all the forums would close.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 26th of January 2019 02:42:30 PM
At last an analogy that people will hopefully understand.
Well said.
and someone invites you in. Well why the hell not???
Remember what happened to the greedy Taxi drivers with Uber. Just saying!!!
What about when that new "restaurant" doesn't supply the same food and drinks, in fact there is no staff and it does not supply anything and you have to bring your own chair and table and even your own toilet and wash your own dishes?
That is a better analogy to a free camp. It is not apples and apples.
Cheers,
Peter
Yes I agree, but the problem is that people still have in their mind the idea of "free camping"
That new "restaurant" can offer a service, but the land is owned by someone and there needs to be some sort of compliancy and accountability otherwise it will go the way of many free camps.
I would be far happier to see the two types of facilities offered, one at a low cost so I can have the choice of which gets my patronage.
There is no such thing as a free camp as someone needs to maintain it.
I much prefer to use the term low cost camping.
stakeholders need to liase.Business's, Travellers Representative Body, plus the Caravan Parks....continually increasing CP fees and reducing/removing travellers options is not sustainable,
and certainly not in the Commercial interests of Town's Business's.....Council Planning Regulations can be challenged/changed/varied by representation....I've been involved with it in the
past...Developers are well versed in obtaining zoning changes to Development plans....''need dictates changes will happen with Rural Farm stays etc...it won't be easy..but it will
happen.with meeting, not confrontation by all stakeholders......if CP's "enjoy" rates subsidy's....why can't Council Short Term stays be subsidized with rubbish removal etc. with resultant low
cost camping fees.....Town's business's will benefit.Local Chambers of Commerce is usually a positive start......it will happen, its more a matter of when?....by Organized Body's representing
all interests..... Hoo Roo .
There is no such thing as a free camp as someone needs to maintain it.
I don't agree with that.
Most of the camps that we use have zero maintenance by anyone and are outside council areas.
So there is no justification for any fee.
The condition of those camps is entirely up to the users and it is important that the users take full responsibility for that and that is the bottom line.
Maintenance is only required if people are not self contained and don't take care of places.
Treat camps like they were your own back yard and the problem goes away.
Cheers,
Peter
People these days as we all hnow with the modern rigs there fully self contained ,we only need a dump point,take for example Bulladela they offer tons of space for Rvs at cheap donation prices,that towns small shopping centre survives on the Rvs spending money in town,and they do ,the rates are so cheap people stay long enough to need supplies and spend money,the modern Rv does not need all the bells and whistles caravan parks offer so why be forced to pay for them,why not have areas set aside at sensible rates to cater for the modern Rv its should not be about lining the pockets of caravan park owners,or is it ,councils own lots of van parks and profit from them I suppose...
cheers
blaze
The members that advocate "nothing is free" do you feel guilty when you arrive in a town and walk on the free footpath? Enjoy the free park gardens? The free beach or the free seats?
Ratepayers in every council in Oz pay for such maintenance of the above. So when a rv arrives in your town they use such free facilities paid by you. It goes hand in hand.
ALL the discussion points raised above have been around for 'yonks' and well exposed in various forums & documents before this ~ but thanks anyway for revisiting them
At this point I am going to bow out of reviewing this thread and concentrate upon the issue with those people who have contacted me via email as the OP asked for
Phil