Important Questions for Potential-Buyers of Caravans to ask a Supplier (Dealer)
Colin1947 said
12:36 PM Jan 12, 2019
Before you consider signing a Sales Contract, and commit to any financial transaction
Hi 'Vanners
Buying a caravan is a very big investment, and it is essential that a potential-buyer thoroughly does their "home-work" beforehand, to best-ensure that they make a sound and wise investment.
Firstly, and most importantly, use the 2-Part Buyer-Assist - "Evaluation & Comparison" - to determine exactly what caravan you: Want / Need / Can afford, so that you don't get talked in to buying something that does not ideally suit your desired travel plans, or is outside of your budget!
"Self-Certification" of caravans, unfortunately, does not provide potential-buyers with anywhere near the same degree of assurance of compliance or quality, compared with motor vehicles, where all compliance evidence is examined by Vehicle Safety Standards, before a new vehicle model is Approved for marketing in Australia.
In addition, a sample vehicle is thoroughly inspected by government officers, to ensure that the vehicle does indeed completely match the compliance evidence provided.
Motor vehicle manufacturers are required to have a professional Quality Assurance program in place, to best-ensure that all future production vehicles are fully-compliant.
Clearly, the Federal Government has realised that there are a number of major short-comings in the caravan industry, as new more-stringent Regulations are being introduced.
It is a real concern that so many caravan manufacturers have gone out of business in recent times, hence a potential-buyer needs to be ultra-diligent when selecting a new caravan, so as to have a high level of confidence in the future prospects of any particular company.
In order to improve the professionalism of the industry - and to better-protect potential-buyers of caravans and camper-trailers from bitter and costly disappointments and traumas - attached is a list of hard-hitting Questions for a Supplier to respond to.
If a Supplier is unable - or unwilling - to answer any Question, a potential-buyer may well wish to ask "why", and seriously consider if they feel comfortable doing business with them, and handing over a lot of $$,$$$ to them.
One would hope that a professional dedicated Manufacturer, or Dealer, definitely would not object to answering any of the Questions - knowing that some competitors might object - as nothing is confidential, and that they would welcome the opportunity to make a sale, realising that the Buyer would be completely happy with both the Product and the Service, and would sleep well at night, knowing that the 'van was in top-notch condition, and extremely unlikely to present any problems in the future.
These important Questions are in addition to having the Supplier complete - and sign - the supplied Compliance and Pre-Delivery Check-Lists.
The four Attachments can be obtained by sending an email to: caravancouncil@optusnet.com.au
Safe & Happy Travels!
Colin
Important Questions for Potential-Buyers of Caravans to ask a Supplier (Dealer)
Before you consider signing a Sales Contract, and commit to any financial transaction
Firstly, and most importantly, use the 2-Part Buyer-Assist - "Evaluation & Comparison" - to determine exactly what caravan you: Want / Need / Can afford, so that you don't get talked into buying something that does not ideally suit your desired travel plans, or is outside your budget!
History of the Supplier & Manufacturer:
1: How many years has your Business been operating? ________
2: Approximately, how many years has the Manufacturer been operating? ________
3: Does the Manufacturer have a professional Quality-Assurance program. YES / NO
4: Does the Manufacturer have a professional experienced engineer on-site? YES / NO
5: Have any of your caravans been subject to a compulsory or voluntary re-call? YES / NO
Business Practices:
6: Would you be willing to complete - and sign - the VSB1 Compliance Check-List supplied, before conducting the hand-over procedure? YES / NO
7: Would you be willing to complete - and sign - the Pre-Delivery Check-List supplied, before conducting the hand-over procedure? YES / NO
8: Does your Sales Contract comply with all requirements of the Australian Consumer Law? YES / NO
9: Is your Sales Contract free of any requirement for the Consumer (Buyer) to declare that the vehicle is Safe, Compliant, Fit for the Intended Purpose, of Acceptable Quality, or as Advertised or Advised, before they accept the vehicle? YES / NO
10: Do you supply a certified public weigh-bridge ticket stating both the Tare Mass and the Empty Ball-Loading? YES / NO
11: Does the stated Tare Mass include all standard equipment, and all other items that are stated on the Sales Contract? YES / NO
12: In other words, does the stated Tare Mass precisely mean the mass of the empty vehicle - including empty water tanks and empty gas cylinders - in the configuration and condition as it leaves the Suppliernot the Manufacturer? YES / NO
13: Did the Manufacturer of the proposed vehicle conduct a comprehensive Final Inspection?
If yes, is the Report signed, and supplied with the vehicle? YES / NO
14: Do you conduct a detailed Pre-Delivery Inspection on each vehicle, before it is sold?
If yes, is the Report signed, and supplied with the vehicle? YES / NO
15: Are you completely familiar with the Provisions of the Australian Consumer Law, in relation to the legal obligations of Suppliers? YES / NO
16: Does your Sales Contract state that a consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement without having to take legal action? YES / NO
17: Does the Manufacturer have authorised Service and Repair agents in all major cities? YES / NO
18: Do you guarantee that all information on the Trailer Plate - or otherwise supplied with the proposed caravan - is true, correct and complete? YES / NO
19: Are all of your Sales / Marketing personnel fully-conversant with the Requirements of VSB1, and the Ratings and Masses terms for caravans and tow-vehicles? YES / NO
Specific, Intended Caravan:
20: Do you carefully appraise all Ratings of the intended - and advised in writing - tow-vehicle, in order to ensure that the proposed fully-loaded caravan can be safely and legally towed. YES / NO
21: Can the intended tow-vehicle be legally loaded to its GVM Rating when the proposed caravan is fully-loaded to its ATM Rating? YES / NO
22: Can the caravan be fully loaded (in a typical and reasonable manner) - up to its ATM Rating - without exceeding the GTM Rating or the Coupling Rating? YES / NO
23: Has a fully-loaded vehicle Model been professionally tested under real-world operating conditions, to (a) Determine the acceptable lower and upper Ball Loadings for safe handling and stability, and to (b) Provide assurance of acceptable reliability and durability? YES / NO
24: Was the Electrical System of the proposed caravan installed - and certified - by a Qualified Electrician? YES / NO
25: Was the Gas System of the proposed caravan installed - and certified - by a Qualified Gas-Fitter? YES / NO
26: Is there anything about this caravan Model - or this particular caravan - that I should be aware of, that would influence my decision to buy, or not to buy? YES / NO
27: By how many kg does the Ball-Loading vary - plus & minus - when the contents of the water tanks are at their two most-adverse combinations of Empty and Full?
+ _______ kg - _______ kg
Supplier Name & Signature: ______________________________________
Witness Name & Signature: _______________________________________
In a perfect World a Dealer would have no problem with certifying in the positive for all questions, whereas I doubt if there is any Dealer that could.
Desert Dweller said
03:29 PM Jan 12, 2019
After that Spanish Inquisition he'd probably tell you to go & buy your caravan somewhere else.
DMaxer said
07:21 PM Jan 12, 2019
Why would you put someone through all this. With your own due diligence you would know these things and leave your discussions with the dealer to negotiating an agreed purchase price.
I doubt even the most considerate and obliging dealer would still be conscious after this barrage of interrogation.
Perhaps he might report the purchaser to the Caravan Council for intimidation and harassment.
Possum3 said
07:34 PM Jan 12, 2019
DMaxer wrote:
I doubt even the most considerate and obliging dealer would still be conscious after this barrage of interrogation.
Perhaps he might report the purchaser to the Caravan Council for intimidation and harassment.
Is it harassment to request Dealer to prove compliance with the Australian Consumer Law?
Sarco Harris said
08:44 PM Jan 12, 2019
Noting these are questionaires/checklist put out by the Caravan Council or Australia, if the supplier is not prepared to stand by their product as outlined in the questionaires/checklists perhaps one should ONLY buy from one that does.
In a perfect World a Dealer would have no problem with certifying in the positive for all questions, whereas I doubt if there is any Dealer that could.
And you know this because?
Most reputable dealers or manufacturers would be capable of responding to this barrage of questions, however, I doubt if too many would be interested in doing so. You might be advised to go elsewhere to buy your caravan.
Possum3 said
08:48 AM Jan 13, 2019
Twenty seven questions "An absolute barrage of questions", my my says a lot doesn't it.
montie said
08:51 AM Jan 13, 2019
Colin1947 wrote:
Before you consider signing a Sales Contract, and commit to any financial transaction
Hi 'Vanners
Buying a caravan is a very big investment, and it is essential that a potential-buyer thoroughly does their "home-work" beforehand, to best-ensure that they make a sound and wise investment.
Firstly, and most importantly, use the 2-Part Buyer-Assist - "Evaluation & Comparison" - to determine exactly what caravan you: Want / Need / Can afford, so that you don't get talked in to buying something that does not ideally suit your desired travel plans, or is outside of your budget!
"Self-Certification" of caravans, unfortunately, does not provide potential-buyers with anywhere near the same degree of assurance of compliance or quality, compared with motor vehicles, where all compliance evidence is examined by Vehicle Safety Standards, before a new vehicle model is Approved for marketing in Australia.
In addition, a sample vehicle is thoroughly inspected by government officers, to ensure that the vehicle does indeed completely match the compliance evidence provided.
Motor vehicle manufacturers are required to have a professional Quality Assurance program in place, to best-ensure that all future production vehicles are fully-compliant.
Clearly, the Federal Government has realised that there are a number of major short-comings in the caravan industry, as new more-stringent Regulations are being introduced.
It is a real concern that so many caravan manufacturers have gone out of business in recent times, hence a potential-buyer needs to be ultra-diligent when selecting a new caravan, so as to have a high level of confidence in the future prospects of any particular company.
In order to improve the professionalism of the industry - and to better-protect potential-buyers of caravans and camper-trailers from bitter and costly disappointments and traumas - attached is a list of hard-hitting Questions for a Supplier to respond to.
If a Supplier is unable - or unwilling - to answer any Question, a potential-buyer may well wish to ask "why", and seriously consider if they feel comfortable doing business with them, and handing over a lot of $$,$$$ to them.
One would hope that a professional dedicated Manufacturer, or Dealer, definitely would not object to answering any of the Questions - knowing that some competitors might object - as nothing is confidential, and that they would welcome the opportunity to make a sale, realising that the Buyer would be completely happy with both the Product and the Service, and would sleep well at night, knowing that the 'van was in top-notch condition, and extremely unlikely to present any problems in the future.
These important Questions are in addition to having the Supplier complete - and sign - the supplied Compliance and Pre-Delivery Check-Lists.
The four Attachments can be obtained by sending an email to: caravancouncil@optusnet.com.au
Safe & Happy Travels!
Colin
Important Questions for Potential-Buyers of Caravans to ask a Supplier (Dealer)
Before you consider signing a Sales Contract, and commit to any financial transaction
Firstly, and most importantly, use the 2-Part Buyer-Assist - "Evaluation & Comparison" - to determine exactly what caravan you: Want / Need / Can afford, so that you don't get talked into buying something that does not ideally suit your desired travel plans, or is outside your budget!
History of the Supplier & Manufacturer:
1: How many years has your Business been operating? ________
2: Approximately, how many years has the Manufacturer been operating? ________
3: Does the Manufacturer have a professional Quality-Assurance program. YES / NO
4: Does the Manufacturer have a professional experienced engineer on-site? YES / NO
5: Have any of your caravans been subject to a compulsory or voluntary re-call? YES / NO
Business Practices:
6: Would you be willing to complete - and sign - the VSB1 Compliance Check-List supplied, before conducting the hand-over procedure? YES / NO
7: Would you be willing to complete - and sign - the Pre-Delivery Check-List supplied, before conducting the hand-over procedure? YES / NO
8: Does your Sales Contract comply with all requirements of the Australian Consumer Law? YES / NO
9: Is your Sales Contract free of any requirement for the Consumer (Buyer) to declare that the vehicle is Safe, Compliant, Fit for the Intended Purpose, of Acceptable Quality, or as Advertised or Advised, before they accept the vehicle? YES / NO
10: Do you supply a certified public weigh-bridge ticket stating both the Tare Mass and the Empty Ball-Loading? YES / NO
11: Does the stated Tare Mass include all standard equipment, and all other items that are stated on the Sales Contract? YES / NO
12: In other words, does the stated Tare Mass precisely mean the mass of the empty vehicle - including empty water tanks and empty gas cylinders - in the configuration and condition as it leaves the Suppliernot the Manufacturer? YES / NO
13: Did the Manufacturer of the proposed vehicle conduct a comprehensive Final Inspection?
If yes, is the Report signed, and supplied with the vehicle? YES / NO
14: Do you conduct a detailed Pre-Delivery Inspection on each vehicle, before it is sold?
If yes, is the Report signed, and supplied with the vehicle? YES / NO
15: Are you completely familiar with the Provisions of the Australian Consumer Law, in relation to the legal obligations of Suppliers? YES / NO
16: Does your Sales Contract state that a consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement without having to take legal action? YES / NO
17: Does the Manufacturer have authorised Service and Repair agents in all major cities? YES / NO
18: Do you guarantee that all information on the Trailer Plate - or otherwise supplied with the proposed caravan - is true, correct and complete? YES / NO
19: Are all of your Sales / Marketing personnel fully-conversant with the Requirements of VSB1, and the Ratings and Masses terms for caravans and tow-vehicles? YES / NO
Specific, Intended Caravan:
20: Do you carefully appraise all Ratings of the intended - and advised in writing - tow-vehicle, in order to ensure that the proposed fully-loaded caravan can be safely and legally towed. YES / NO
21: Can the intended tow-vehicle be legally loaded to its GVM Rating when the proposed caravan is fully-loaded to its ATM Rating? YES / NO
22: Can the caravan be fully loaded (in a typical and reasonable manner) - up to its ATM Rating - without exceeding the GTM Rating or the Coupling Rating? YES / NO
23: Has a fully-loaded vehicle Model been professionally tested under real-world operating conditions, to (a) Determine the acceptable lower and upper Ball Loadings for safe handling and stability, and to (b) Provide assurance of acceptable reliability and durability? YES / NO
24: Was the Electrical System of the proposed caravan installed - and certified - by a Qualified Electrician? YES / NO
25: Was the Gas System of the proposed caravan installed - and certified - by a Qualified Gas-Fitter? YES / NO
26: Is there anything about this caravan Model - or this particular caravan - that I should be aware of, that would influence my decision to buy, or not to buy? YES / NO
27: By how many kg does the Ball-Loading vary - plus & minus - when the contents of the water tanks are at their two most-adverse combinations of Empty and Full?
+ _______ kg - _______ kg
Supplier Name & Signature: ______________________________________
Witness Name & Signature: _______________________________________
Date: _______________________
Colin, with all due respect, I think you have too much time on your hands.!
No dealer in his sane mind would agree to signing that "magna carta" and making it part of his contract of sale.
If a purchaser has special conditions regarding weight, dimensions, towing or other capacities, provided the dealer agrees these conditions can be noted on the contract of sale. If at time of delivery these conditions are not met, delivery of van can be rejected and deposit refunded.
The purchaser has the right to take the contract for legal advice thereon before signing.
Warren-Pat_01 said
03:11 PM Jan 13, 2019
Colin - you have missed out ONE IMPORTANT POINT!
Montie spotted it too but the dealer who sold us our van "said my car could tow that van without any problems". I learnt otherwise later!
Do YOU the buyer of the above said caravan know the weight of the vehicle you are going to tow the caravan with? How close to the GVM is it?
Possum3 said
04:03 PM Jan 13, 2019
Warren-Pat_01 wrote:
Do YOU the buyer of the above said caravan know the weight of the vehicle you are going to tow the caravan with? How close to the GVM is it?
I think Colin covered that in Q. 20
Stretch60 said
10:18 PM Jan 13, 2019
If I was buying a new van, absolutely would I interrogate the salesperson and enter into a legally binding contract for peace of mind. As the say cover your ar**.
DMaxer said
07:33 AM Jan 14, 2019
The dealer/manufacturer are already liable if the new van is defective under existing statute and common law. This document does not give any more avenues for compensation or redress if defects, whether latent or patent, are detected.
Although I am sure that this has been presented with the best of intentions, it is of no use. If you drive away in your new van and the wheels fall off and the roof caves in, the manufacturer can't raise the defence of "you never asked if an engineer looked at this".
It is no different to any other commodity one may purchase in Australia. There is the expectation that it is fit for purpose. If not, there is compensation or redress.
Waving some piece of paper about with some salesman's signature on the bottom does not advance one's claim whatsoever.
iana said
07:54 AM Jan 14, 2019
I was going to say that perhaps the form should be more aimed at the purchaser to fill out, by asking the questions and filling in the details, the purchaser will have a dosier of what exactly they can tow hand what they are required to have. But that falls down because as in our case you sign the contract of sale, and the van is built after that so one really has no idea of what they are getting until they go to pick it up.
Ron-D said
08:19 AM Jan 14, 2019
My experience after buying our caravan from A big dealership in Sydney was long drives from home towing the van through banked up Sydney traffic ,waiting around to have a long haired kid with a 12inch shifter working on the van,after going through this with several issues,there was a better way,fix it myself and what I could not do myself pay the the local auto electricIan,this was a big dealership with all the caravan accredited Rv Map manufacturer logo bolted to the van with nice shine key on it,we went through massive traffic jambs emails phone calls unanswered.T me its an industry producing popped out vans on assembly line employing cheap labour under pressure to make a big dollar.theres people here who support the manufacturers probably pushing there own agenda,but The reality in our personal experience fix the problems yourself,and thank god its out of warranty ....
2-Smiths said
09:36 AM Jan 14, 2019
Desert Dweller wrote:
After that Spanish Inquisition he'd probably tell you to go & buy your caravan somewhere else.
Probably why there are so many crap caravans on the roads...and owners towing them around, blissfully unaware that they're probably in - multiple - breaches of various weight-related rules and regs.
DMaxer said
10:19 AM Jan 14, 2019
If there are crap caravans on the road and owners towing vans that are too heavy for their tow vehicle, then that is an issue with the purchaser.
I am the first to admit that I knew little about caravans so I engaged someone who was to inspect my proposed purchase. It cost me about $200 and covered everything.
As for having the incorrect tow vehicle, I sought the advice I needed to ensure everything was OK.
Surely we don't need a myriad of forms and protocols to protect people from their own stupidity.
montie said
11:41 AM Jan 14, 2019
2-Smiths wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
After that Spanish Inquisition he'd probably tell you to go & buy your caravan somewhere else.
Probably why there are so many crap caravans on the roads...and owners towing them around, blissfully unaware that they're probably in - multiple - breaches of various weight-related rules and regs.
Weight related issues of a caravan whilst in use on the highway is the responsibility of the owner. Manufacturers do not load caravans, owners do.
2-Smiths said
09:30 AM Jan 15, 2019
montie wrote:
2-Smiths wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
After that Spanish Inquisition he'd probably tell you to go & buy your caravan somewhere else.
Probably why there are so many crap caravans on the roads...and owners towing them around, blissfully unaware that they're probably in - multiple - breaches of various weight-related rules and regs.
Weight related issues of a caravan whilst in use on the highway is the responsibility of the owner. Manufacturers do not load caravans, owners do.
Thank you. I'm aware of what "strict liability" means, as evidently are you.
However, a number of the questions in the "Spanish inquisition" referred to, go directly to the heart of how caravans are constructed and - most importantly - certified as regards various weight ratings.
Given "strict liability", and its emphasis on owner personal responsibility, many of these questions "should" be being asked by prospective owners, prior to purchase.
Are they?
The evidence suggests that, in most cases, the answer is no.
montie said
10:00 AM Jan 15, 2019
2-Smiths wrote:
montie wrote:
2-Smiths wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
After that Spanish Inquisition he'd probably tell you to go & buy your caravan somewhere else.
Probably why there are so many crap caravans on the roads...and owners towing them around, blissfully unaware that they're probably in - multiple - breaches of various weight-related rules and regs.
Weight related issues of a caravan whilst in use on the highway is the responsibility of the owner. Manufacturers do not load caravans, owners do.
Thank you. I'm aware of what "strict liability" means, as evidently are you.
However, a number of the questions in the "Spanish inquisition" referred to, go directly to the heart of how caravans are constructed and - most importantly - certified as regards various weight ratings.
Given "strict liability", and its emphasis on owner personal responsibility, many of these questions "should" be being asked by prospective owners, prior to purchase.
Are they?
The evidence suggests that, in most cases, the answer is no.
I'm sure that reputable manufacturers would have no problem answering if possible the questions put forward, but as a dealer there is no way that I would be prepared to commit myself legally by answering for them as a third party. Most of the questions on the inquisition are directed at the manufacturer, so maybe we need two inquisitions.....one for the dealer and one for the manufacturer!
Or maybe we apply some common sense and list any conditions that concern you on the contract of sale if the dealer agrees. Maybe some research before purchase would also help.
LUCKY LOZ said
08:36 PM Jan 15, 2019
Or maybe the dealer should have all these facts signed off by the manufacturer before agreeing to sell them .
How about that??? Yeah right. And the price and weight of these NEW caravans is IMHO out of control.
I think the babyboomers are being taken for a ride.
If a box that has no motor ,gearbox or diff is worth $70000 plus perhaps car makers should start making caravans.
What a sad joke.
Mamil said
11:23 PM Jan 15, 2019
LUCKY LOZ wrote:
If a box that has no motor ,gearbox or diff is worth $70000 plus perhaps car makers should start making caravans.
That's an interesting point. I had the same question in my mind about boats - why were they so much more expensive than cars? But then I got into the business of making boats in China and I found the answer - it's all about economies of scale in manufacturing. Same goes for caravans, it's still a cottage industry compared to auto manufacture. To give you an idea, Jayco is our largest RV manufacturer and produces about 50 vehicles a day, whereas one of the big auto manufacturers will produce upwards of 30,000 vehicles a day.
LUCKY LOZ said
09:18 AM Jan 17, 2019
I see your point Mamil. So it really might be a good idea for car manufacturers to make caravans as there would be better quality control and also reduce the purchase to a more realistic price.
Ron-D said
09:37 AM Jan 17, 2019
Iff you ask questions of caravan dealers your dealing directly with the person thats trying to flog there product to you .what are they going to tell you a lot of BS ,better off looking at owners forums,or speak to people that have owned and bought that van if you want the truth.do proper research ,Iwould not trust a sales person there interest is moveing stock ,your just a number on a commission check...
montie said
11:34 AM Jan 17, 2019
Ron-D wrote:
Iff you ask questions of caravan dealers your dealing directly with the person thats trying to flog there product to you .what are they going to tell you a lot of BS ,better off looking at owners forums,or speak to people that have owned and bought that van if you want the truth.do proper research ,Iwould not trust a sales person there interest is moveing stock ,your just a number on a commission check...
So you are saying that if you need to know the various weight limits of the van you are looking to purchase you would ask somebody else rather than the dealer?
I bet if that goes pear shaped it will still be the dealers fault!
Ron-D said
09:09 AM Jan 18, 2019
You dont have to be a genius to realise I was not speaking about weight limits there easily found ,look at the second hand market they dont buy from dealers the information on weights is readily available , I was speaking about being conned into buying an Rv by sales people ,Montie in the real world thats what happens,moveing stock and commission is there real agenda,of course thats not your agenda Look at lemon caravan sites and thats only touching the surface of the problem,We bought a caravan from a huge dealer in Sydney speak about trouble and faults crap service and lies ,your saying its a great industry thats not ny experience but as a dealer I appreciate your totally unbiased opinion...
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 09:17:21 AM
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 09:41:56 AM
montie said
01:59 PM Jan 18, 2019
Ron-D wrote:
You dont have to be a genius to realise I was not speaking about weight limits there easily found ,look at the second hand market they dont buy from dealers the information on weights is readily available , I was speaking about being conned into buying an Rv by sales people ,Montie in the real world thats what happens,moveing stock and commission is there real agenda,of course thats not your agenda Look at lemon caravan sites and thats only touching the surface of the problem,We bought a caravan from a huge dealer in Sydney speak about trouble and faults crap service and lies ,your saying its a great industry thats not ny experience but as a dealer I appreciate your totally unbiased opinion...
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 09:17:21 AM
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 09:41:56 AM
Ron,
By far the largest percentage of complaints received by the Association is about weights and ratings whether misrepresented or misunderstood. It is certainly the most important conversation you should be having with the dealer.
Ron-D said
04:08 PM Jan 18, 2019
Monty I respect your opinion but the real problem is poor workmanship and lack of aftersales Service with some manufacturers, theres a lot of unhappy owners out there ,that have more serious problems with there popped out rigs then weights and ratings ,they werent my main concern when the thing had major manufacturing faults ,a nicely built rid thats not falling apart or leaking is far more important thats Just common sense,weights and rateings is important and most rigs have this accurately displayed on there compliance plate,its up to the owner to select the correct towing rig and Make sure things are not overloaded,thats easy enough with a weigh bridge..
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 04:13:38 PM
LUCKY LOZ said
03:34 PM Jan 26, 2019
montie , just wondering if you could fill us all in on the percentage/ commission a dealer receives from say an $80000 caravan sale.
Would be greatly appreciated and go a long way to showing your commitment to honesty and fair trading.
Thanks so much.
rockylizard said
08:41 PM Jan 26, 2019
Gday...
Why would .... or should ... ANYONE provide their income to folk on an open forum.
I can guarantee all that I would never provide my income to anyone ... even face-to-face around the campfire.
Before you consider signing a Sales Contract, and commit to any financial transaction
Hi 'Vanners
Buying a caravan is a very big investment, and it is essential that a potential-buyer thoroughly does their "home-work" beforehand, to best-ensure that they make a sound and wise investment.
Firstly, and most importantly, use the 2-Part Buyer-Assist - "Evaluation & Comparison" - to determine exactly what caravan you: Want / Need / Can afford, so that you don't get talked in to buying something that does not ideally suit your desired travel plans, or is outside of your budget!
"Self-Certification" of caravans, unfortunately, does not provide potential-buyers with anywhere near the same degree of assurance of compliance or quality, compared with motor vehicles, where all compliance evidence is examined by Vehicle Safety Standards, before a new vehicle model is Approved for marketing in Australia.
In addition, a sample vehicle is thoroughly inspected by government officers, to ensure that the vehicle does indeed completely match the compliance evidence provided.
Motor vehicle manufacturers are required to have a professional Quality Assurance program in place, to best-ensure that all future production vehicles are fully-compliant.
Clearly, the Federal Government has realised that there are a number of major short-comings in the caravan industry, as new more-stringent Regulations are being introduced.
It is a real concern that so many caravan manufacturers have gone out of business in recent times, hence a potential-buyer needs to be ultra-diligent when selecting a new caravan, so as to have a high level of confidence in the future prospects of any particular company.
In order to improve the professionalism of the industry - and to better-protect potential-buyers of caravans and camper-trailers from bitter and costly disappointments and traumas - attached is a list of hard-hitting Questions for a Supplier to respond to.
If a Supplier is unable - or unwilling - to answer any Question, a potential-buyer may well wish to ask "why", and seriously consider if they feel comfortable doing business with them, and handing over a lot of $$,$$$ to them.
One would hope that a professional dedicated Manufacturer, or Dealer, definitely would not object to answering any of the Questions - knowing that some competitors might object - as nothing is confidential, and that they would welcome the opportunity to make a sale, realising that the Buyer would be completely happy with both the Product and the Service, and would sleep well at night, knowing that the 'van was in top-notch condition, and extremely unlikely to present any problems in the future.
These important Questions are in addition to having the Supplier complete - and sign - the supplied Compliance and Pre-Delivery Check-Lists.
The four Attachments can be obtained by sending an email to: caravancouncil@optusnet.com.au
Safe & Happy Travels!
Colin
Important Questions for Potential-Buyers of Caravans to ask a Supplier (Dealer)
Before you consider signing a Sales Contract, and commit to any financial transaction
Firstly, and most importantly, use the 2-Part Buyer-Assist - "Evaluation & Comparison" - to determine exactly what caravan you: Want / Need / Can afford, so that you don't get talked into buying something that does not ideally suit your desired travel plans, or is outside your budget!
History of the Supplier & Manufacturer:
1: How many years has your Business been operating? ________
2: Approximately, how many years has the Manufacturer been operating? ________
3: Does the Manufacturer have a professional Quality-Assurance program. YES / NO
4: Does the Manufacturer have a professional experienced engineer on-site? YES / NO
5: Have any of your caravans been subject to a compulsory or voluntary re-call? YES / NO
Business Practices:
6: Would you be willing to complete - and sign - the VSB1 Compliance Check-List supplied, before conducting the hand-over procedure? YES / NO
7: Would you be willing to complete - and sign - the Pre-Delivery Check-List supplied, before conducting the hand-over procedure? YES / NO
8: Does your Sales Contract comply with all requirements of the Australian Consumer Law? YES / NO
9: Is your Sales Contract free of any requirement for the Consumer (Buyer) to declare that the vehicle is Safe, Compliant, Fit for the Intended Purpose, of Acceptable Quality, or as Advertised or Advised, before they accept the vehicle? YES / NO
10: Do you supply a certified public weigh-bridge ticket stating both the Tare Mass and the Empty Ball-Loading? YES / NO
11: Does the stated Tare Mass include all standard equipment, and all other items that are stated on the Sales Contract? YES / NO
12: In other words, does the stated Tare Mass precisely mean the mass of the empty vehicle - including empty water tanks and empty gas cylinders - in the configuration and condition as it leaves the Supplier not the Manufacturer? YES / NO
13: Did the Manufacturer of the proposed vehicle conduct a comprehensive Final Inspection?
If yes, is the Report signed, and supplied with the vehicle? YES / NO
14: Do you conduct a detailed Pre-Delivery Inspection on each vehicle, before it is sold?
If yes, is the Report signed, and supplied with the vehicle? YES / NO
15: Are you completely familiar with the Provisions of the Australian Consumer Law, in relation to the legal obligations of Suppliers? YES / NO
16: Does your Sales Contract state that a consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement without having to take legal action? YES / NO
17: Does the Manufacturer have authorised Service and Repair agents in all major cities? YES / NO
18: Do you guarantee that all information on the Trailer Plate - or otherwise supplied with the proposed caravan - is true, correct and complete? YES / NO
19: Are all of your Sales / Marketing personnel fully-conversant with the Requirements of VSB1, and the Ratings and Masses terms for caravans and tow-vehicles? YES / NO
Specific, Intended Caravan:
20: Do you carefully appraise all Ratings of the intended - and advised in writing - tow-vehicle, in order to ensure that the proposed fully-loaded caravan can be safely and legally towed. YES / NO
21: Can the intended tow-vehicle be legally loaded to its GVM Rating when the proposed caravan is fully-loaded to its ATM Rating? YES / NO
22: Can the caravan be fully loaded (in a typical and reasonable manner) - up to its ATM Rating - without exceeding the GTM Rating or the Coupling Rating? YES / NO
23: Has a fully-loaded vehicle Model been professionally tested under real-world operating conditions, to (a) Determine the acceptable lower and upper Ball Loadings for safe handling and stability, and to (b) Provide assurance of acceptable reliability and durability? YES / NO
24: Was the Electrical System of the proposed caravan installed - and certified - by a Qualified Electrician? YES / NO
25: Was the Gas System of the proposed caravan installed - and certified - by a Qualified Gas-Fitter? YES / NO
26: Is there anything about this caravan Model - or this particular caravan - that I should be aware of, that would influence my decision to buy, or not to buy? YES / NO
27: By how many kg does the Ball-Loading vary - plus & minus - when the contents of the water tanks are at their two most-adverse combinations of Empty and Full?
+ _______ kg - _______ kg
Supplier Name & Signature: ______________________________________
Witness Name & Signature: _______________________________________
Date: _______________________
After that Spanish Inquisition he'd probably tell you to go & buy your caravan somewhere else.
Why would you put someone through all this. With your own due diligence you would know these things and leave your discussions with the dealer to negotiating an agreed purchase price.
I doubt even the most considerate and obliging dealer would still be conscious after this barrage of interrogation.
Perhaps he might report the purchaser to the Caravan Council for intimidation and harassment.
Is it harassment to request Dealer to prove compliance with the Australian Consumer Law?
www.caravancouncil.com.au/
Sarco
And you know this because?
Most reputable dealers or manufacturers would be capable of responding to this barrage of questions, however, I doubt if too many would be interested in doing so. You might be advised to go elsewhere to buy your caravan.
Colin, with all due respect, I think you have too much time on your hands.!
No dealer in his sane mind would agree to signing that "magna carta" and making it part of his contract of sale.
If a purchaser has special conditions regarding weight, dimensions, towing or other capacities, provided the dealer agrees these conditions can be noted on the contract of sale. If at time of delivery these conditions are not met, delivery of van can be rejected and deposit refunded.
The purchaser has the right to take the contract for legal advice thereon before signing.
Montie spotted it too but the dealer who sold us our van "said my car could tow that van without any problems". I learnt otherwise later!
Do YOU the buyer of the above said caravan know the weight of the vehicle you are going to tow the caravan with? How close to the GVM is it?
I think Colin covered that in Q. 20
The dealer/manufacturer are already liable if the new van is defective under existing statute and common law. This document does not give any more avenues for compensation or redress if defects, whether latent or patent, are detected.
Although I am sure that this has been presented with the best of intentions, it is of no use. If you drive away in your new van and the wheels fall off and the roof caves in, the manufacturer can't raise the defence of "you never asked if an engineer looked at this".
It is no different to any other commodity one may purchase in Australia. There is the expectation that it is fit for purpose. If not, there is compensation or redress.
Waving some piece of paper about with some salesman's signature on the bottom does not advance one's claim whatsoever.
My experience after buying our caravan from A big dealership in Sydney was long drives from home towing the van through banked up Sydney traffic ,waiting around to have a long haired kid with a 12inch shifter working on the van,after going through this with several issues,there was a better way,fix it myself and what I could not do myself pay the the local auto electricIan,this was a big dealership with all the caravan accredited Rv Map manufacturer logo bolted to the van with nice shine key on it,we went through massive traffic jambs emails phone calls unanswered.T me its an industry producing popped out vans on assembly line employing cheap labour under pressure to make a big dollar.theres people here who support the manufacturers probably pushing there own agenda,but The reality in our personal experience fix the problems yourself,and thank god its out of warranty ....
Probably why there are so many crap caravans on the roads...and owners towing them around, blissfully unaware that they're probably in - multiple - breaches of various weight-related rules and regs.
If there are crap caravans on the road and owners towing vans that are too heavy for their tow vehicle, then that is an issue with the purchaser.
I am the first to admit that I knew little about caravans so I engaged someone who was to inspect my proposed purchase. It cost me about $200 and covered everything.
As for having the incorrect tow vehicle, I sought the advice I needed to ensure everything was OK.
Surely we don't need a myriad of forms and protocols to protect people from their own stupidity.
Weight related issues of a caravan whilst in use on the highway is the responsibility of the owner. Manufacturers do not load caravans, owners do.
Thank you. I'm aware of what "strict liability" means, as evidently are you.
However, a number of the questions in the "Spanish inquisition" referred to, go directly to the heart of how caravans are constructed and - most importantly - certified as regards various weight ratings.
Given "strict liability", and its emphasis on owner personal responsibility, many of these questions "should" be being asked by prospective owners, prior to purchase.
Are they?
The evidence suggests that, in most cases, the answer is no.
I'm sure that reputable manufacturers would have no problem answering if possible the questions put forward, but as a dealer there is no way that I would be prepared to commit myself legally by answering for them as a third party. Most of the questions on the inquisition are directed at the manufacturer, so maybe we need two inquisitions.....one for the dealer and one for the manufacturer!
Or maybe we apply some common sense and list any conditions that concern you on the contract of sale if the dealer agrees. Maybe some research before purchase would also help.
How about that??? Yeah right. And the price and weight of these NEW caravans is IMHO out of control.
I think the babyboomers are being taken for a ride.
If a box that has no motor ,gearbox or diff is worth $70000 plus perhaps car makers should start making caravans.
What a sad joke.
That's an interesting point. I had the same question in my mind about boats - why were they so much more expensive than cars? But then I got into the business of making boats in China and I found the answer - it's all about economies of scale in manufacturing. Same goes for caravans, it's still a cottage industry compared to auto manufacture. To give you an idea, Jayco is our largest RV manufacturer and produces about 50 vehicles a day, whereas one of the big auto manufacturers will produce upwards of 30,000 vehicles a day.
Iff you ask questions of caravan dealers your dealing directly with the person thats trying to flog there product to you .what are they going to tell you a lot of BS ,better off looking at owners forums,or speak to people that have owned and bought that van if you want the truth.do proper research ,Iwould not trust a sales person there interest is moveing stock ,your just a number on a commission check...
So you are saying that if you need to know the various weight limits of the van you are looking to purchase you would ask somebody else rather than the dealer?
I bet if that goes pear shaped it will still be the dealers fault!
You dont have to be a genius to realise I was not speaking about weight limits there easily found ,look at the second hand market they dont buy from dealers the information on weights is readily available , I was speaking about being conned into buying an Rv by sales people ,Montie in the real world thats what happens,moveing stock and commission is there real agenda,of course thats not your agenda
Look at lemon caravan sites and thats only touching the surface of the problem,We bought a caravan from a huge dealer in Sydney speak about trouble and faults crap service and lies ,your saying its a great industry thats not ny experience but as a dealer I appreciate your totally unbiased opinion...
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 09:17:21 AM
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 09:41:56 AM
Ron,
By far the largest percentage of complaints received by the Association is about weights and ratings whether misrepresented or misunderstood. It is certainly the most important conversation you should be having with the dealer.
Monty I respect your opinion but the real problem is poor workmanship and lack of aftersales Service with some manufacturers, theres a lot of unhappy owners out there ,that have more serious problems with there popped out rigs then weights and ratings ,they werent my main concern when the thing had major manufacturing faults ,a nicely built rid thats not falling apart or leaking is far more important thats Just common sense,weights and rateings is important and most rigs have this accurately displayed on there compliance plate,its up to the owner to select the correct towing rig and Make sure things are not overloaded,thats easy enough with a weigh bridge..
-- Edited by Ron-D on Friday 18th of January 2019 04:13:38 PM
Would be greatly appreciated and go a long way to showing your commitment to honesty and fair trading.
Thanks so much.
Gday...
Why would .... or should ... ANYONE provide their income to folk on an open forum.
I can guarantee all that I would never provide my income to anyone ... even face-to-face around the campfire.
Absolutely no-body else's business.
jest sayin'
cheers - John