At first glance, the Patrols towing specs look good: it has a 3500kg maximum towing capacity, of which a maximum 350kg can rest on the towball. The Patrol has a 750kg payload and so when loaded to its 3500kg maximum Gross Vehicle Mass, itll still be able to tow its full 3500kg capacity (so Gross Combined Mass is 7000kg).
The downside is the Nissans 350kg maximum towball download becomes a 250kg maximum if you have loaded the Patrol to its 3500kg GVM. However, if you reduce payload in the Patrol by 70kg, (so its GVM is now 3430kg) maximum TBM is 300kg; reduce it by 100kg and TBM is 325kg. To use the maximum 350kg TBM, youll have to take 130kg out of the Patrol. As if towing weight legalities werent complicated enough already.
The Patrol does not have trailer sway control as part of its stability suite.
I have real trouble understanding all this. My understanding is that the total tow ball mass weight becomes part of the tow vehicle GVM, so if the car had a carrying capacity of 750kg and you attach a tow ball mass of 350kg then, the available carrying capacity is 350kg! I cannot understand how putting 350kg on a tow ball only reduces carrying capacity by 130kg. Can someone explain where has the 220kg (ie 350-130) of tow ball weight gone?
Dickodownunder said
08:47 AM May 19, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
At first glance, the Patrols towing specs look good: it has a 3500kg maximum towing capacity, of which a maximum 350kg can rest on the towball. The Patrol has a 750kg payload and so when loaded to its 3500kg maximum Gross Vehicle Mass, itll still be able to tow its full 3500kg capacity (so Gross Combined Mass is 7000kg).
The downside is the Nissans 350kg maximum towball download becomes a 250kg maximum if you have loaded the Patrol to its 3500kg GVM. However, if you reduce payload in the Patrol by 70kg, (so its GVM is now 3430kg) maximum TBM is 300kg; reduce it by 100kg and TBM is 325kg. To use the maximum 350kg TBM, youll have to take 130kg out of the Patrol. As if towing weight legalities werent complicated enough already.
The Patrol does not have trailer sway control as part of its stability suite.
And yet another Nightmare with weights for an unsuspecting consumer....
rockylizard said
09:00 AM May 19, 2018
Gday...
Or rather than getting totally confused trying to understand and comply with the configurations that Nissan have imposed it can be simply overcome.
Only tow a van weighing around 2,500Kg with a TBW of around 250Kg and load the vehicle upto its GVM (or less).
And that is basically what many "experts" suggest - towing a van that is X% less than the tow vehicle - in the case of this vehicle with a TARE of about 2.700Kg.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Saturday 19th of May 2018 09:02:02 AM
Dickodownunder said
12:47 PM May 19, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Or rather than getting totally confused trying to understand and comply with the configurations that Nissan have imposed it can be simply overcome.
Only tow a van weighing around 2,500Kg with a TBW of around 250Kg and load the vehicle upto its GVM (or less).
And that is basically what many "experts" suggest - towing a van that is X% less than the tow vehicle - in the case of this vehicle with a TARE of about 2.700Kg.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Saturday 19th of May 2018 09:02:02 AM
Absolutely safe and sensible provided the vanner knows what he ACTUALLY weighs. Very few people weigh their combinations so as to really know their situation
This forum and a couple of others cover this and similar topics for most vehicles rated for towing on a very regular basis.
These forums attract a reasonably high membership and as such if each member actually read all the information then we would assume that they are well informed.
Unfortunately many members arent interested in vehicle specs and dont read thosetopics.
Then there is the actual percentages of caravanners that are members on these fora which is probably a very low number.
My thoughts will always be along the lines of the manufacturer providing accurate information without the confusion of several varying scenarios usually partially hidden amongst other technical parts of handbooks so that the potential buyer can determine what they can and cant do with the vehicle.
While many on here and other media platforms choose to use smaller vans the clarity of the specifications shouls be easily available for those who may wish to use a bigger van.
We all need to remember if we do not exceed our ATM. Ball weight. GVM and GCM then we are legal in this country, irrespective of some peoples current views.
It is the specifications of the towing vehicle is where most come unstuck and if this could be provided by the manufacturer stating this is simple terms then this would go a long way to help.
As a start, something along the lines of
"if the gvm of this vehicle is at its maximum then you may only tow a trailer weighing xyz..." And this information needs to be clearly stated in writing in all brochures and advertising. Then let the manufacturers of 4wd utes and some other vehicles compete in marketing their products.
If done by legislation instead of marketing then we would all be in a better place and who knows; it might even encourage some van manufacturers to review their construction methods to provide a lighter unit with the mod cons.
Roy E said
09:49 AM May 20, 2018
Handy Walter has a good point re where does the towball weight go. The Patrol has a 750 kg payload minus all the extras such as bull-bar, driving lights etc.
If we intend to tow a van with a 350 kg tow-ball down load then we need to reduce Patrol payload by 130 kg.
We then put 350 kg tow-ball down load on Patrol and this is part of payload.
We have 750 payload to start, minus 130 kg, minus 350 kg leaving a payload of 270 kg. Not looking so good now, is it?
From the 270 kg take off 160 kg for Mrs & Mr Patrol owner and we are left with 110 kg payload.
Now what does the bull-bar, the extra spare wheel and the personal items in the Patrol weigh? Say 100 kg for example. This leaves us 10kg for fuel.
I think it is a good idea to have a tug with a great towing capability but if possible to limit van weights to say, 2/3 tug's capability.
Towing any 3,500 kg van is in fact mostly beyond the capability of standard 3,500 capable tugs because of either GVM or GCM.
Roy.
HandyWalter said
10:12 AM May 20, 2018
Roy,
I think you have taken too much off. From how I read the article, if you have a ball weight of 350kg, then you only need to reduce payload by 130kg. I think you dont take the 350kk ball weight AND the 130kg payload reduction as well. However as you say 350kg is not a lot of spare carrying capacity with 2 adults fuel, etc.
rockylizard said
11:04 AM May 20, 2018
Gday...
It is illegal to exceed the Patrol's GVM (3,500Kg) and if you wish to operate at that weight, then you need to not have a TBW greater than 250Kg.
With a TARE of 2,750Kg, add 250Kg TBW, 140Kg fuel, 150Kg (2 passengers), bullbar and other accessories ~100Kg, takes GVM to ~3,390Kg or 110Kg payload left.
As can be seen, despite how the "marketing" numbers are pushed, it is very difficult to tow anything more than a 2,500Kg van - and even then only with carefully chosen payload.
It is ludicrous to suggest, despite their advertising and printing of brochures, one is able to legally attain the GCM of 7,000Kg stated by Nissan - more likely only 6,000Kg.
One could be totally unkind and suggest the Patrol is 'not fit for (advertised) purpose".
And even the much praised LC 200 fares not much better. Indeed, there are very few vehicles available that can genuinely tow anywhere near their "advertised" maximum capabilities.
When ... not if ... the authorities begin to check the compliance of rigs on the road, there are going to be many owners who are going to be furious - and out of pocket.
........ and who's at fault?
Cheers - John
Dickodownunder said
12:05 PM May 20, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
It is illegal to exceed the Patrol's GVM (3,500Kg) and if you wish to operate at that weight, then you need to not have a TBW greater than 250Kg.
With a TARE of 2,750Kg, add 250Kg TBW, 140Kg fuel, 150Kg (2 passengers), bullbar and other accessories ~100Kg, takes GVM to ~3,390Kg or 110Kg payload left.
As can be seen, despite how the "marketing" numbers are pushed, it is very difficult to tow anything more than a 2,500Kg van - and even then only with carefully chosen payload.
It is ludicrous to suggest, despite their advertising and printing of brochures, one is able to legally attain the GCM of 7,000Kg stated by Nissan - more likely only 6,000Kg.
One could be totally unkind and suggest the Patrol is 'not fit for (advertised) purpose".
And even the much praised LC 200 fares not much better. Indeed, there are very few vehicles available that can genuinely tow anywhere near their "advertised" maximum capabilities.
When ... not if ... the authorities begin to check the compliance of rigs on the road, there are going to be many owners who are going to be furious - and out of pocket.
........ and who's at fault?
Cheers - John
Absolutely spot on John.
The two posts immediately above this certainly give a great example of the confusion which currently exists with many tow vehicle specifications.
As you say it will come to a head for many one day.
Roy E said
12:19 PM May 20, 2018
Handy Walter,
If the Patrol has a van on behind with 350 kg tow-ball down-load (acceptable for the Patrol), the 350 kg ball-load is vehicle-load and that amount must be deducted from the allowable payload.
Cheers,
Roy.
rockylizard said
01:33 PM May 20, 2018
Roy E wrote:
Handy Walter, If the Patrol has a van on behind with 350 kg tow-ball down-load (acceptable for the Patrol), the 350 kg ball-load is vehicle-load and that amount must be deducted from the allowable payload. Cheers, Roy.
Gday...
You are absolutely correct Roy.
So that would make the figures look like this -
OH .... and of course, if the Patrol is AT GVM ... then the maximum mandated tow ball weight must not exceed 250Kg.
Feel like it is a merry-go-round?
As I said, the ACTUAL figures that Nissan should be promoting is that the maximum towing capacity is 2,500Kg and a TBW of 250Kg because if the GVM is reached (and it seems damned near impossible not to) then it is not allowed, ipso facto, to have more than 250Kg on the ball.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 20th of May 2018 01:53:20 PM
Roy E said
02:24 PM May 20, 2018
Yes John,
I believe every tug out there will probably have some or similar limits to the Patrol so if you plan to tow a 3,500kg monster, you'll need one of those Yankee things or a proper truck.
I know that when I looked at replacing my tug 18 months ago I found various problems with some potential tugs.
The Pajero, for example, can tow 3,000 kg max and can carry a ball load of 300 kg max but when towed load exceeds 2,500 kg, ball load max drops to 180 kg, effectively making absolute max Pajero can safely tow, 2,500 kg.
For every potential tug and van buyer it is a minefield with salesmen, generally little or no help or guide.
Cheers,
Roy.
HandyWalter said
04:54 PM May 20, 2018
I just looked up my car (discovery 4) Now I do not tow a 3.5kg van. But also I dont have ugly bull bars and other weight other than a discreet winch which might add an extra 50kgs, Also a Discovery only has 80ltr tank. So Looking at its specs, the load can be 682kg. Take away the ball mass of 350kg, winch 50kg, fuel 80kg and passengers 150kg, and I still have 52kgs of load. LR do not reduce load carrying when a TB load is added. AND you do not need a WDH as the air suspension adjusts the height to keep the car level. Its one of the many reasons I bought the LR ....besides its reputation of reliability!!!!!!! HA HA
rockylizard said
05:27 PM May 20, 2018
HandyWalter wrote:
I just looked up my car (discovery 4) Now I do not tow a 3.5kg van. But also I dont have ugly bull bars and other weight other than a discreet winch which might add an extra 50kgs, Also a Discovery only has 80ltr tank. So Looking at its specs, the load can be 682kg. Take away the ball mass of 350kg, winch 50kg, fuel 80kg and passengers 150kg, and I still have 52kgs of load. LR do not reduce load carrying when a TB load is added. AND you do not need a WDH as the air suspension adjusts the height to keep the car level. Its one of the many reasons I bought the LR ....besides its reputation of reliability!!!!!!! HA HA
Gday...
Yep HandyWaltear - there seems to be no rhyme nor reason to the numbers that they all come up with.
These are the numbers for the Discovery 4 (assuming the same usage as the Patrol) -
Cheers - John
HandyWalter said
07:35 AM May 21, 2018
Hi John,
A D4 does not have a GVM of 3500kg, so to tow a 3500kg van it would be heavier than the D4, which most people think is unacceptable, even though LT specs say it can legally tow such a weight! That is why my payload is only 682kg.
rockylizard said
09:04 AM May 21, 2018
Gday...
OOPS .... my bad
I will plead that all these confusing numbers for vehicles/vans addled my poor liddle brain.
Discovery 4 numbers -
Cheers - John
rockylizard said
09:40 AM May 21, 2018
Gday...
Yeah ... I know I know ... only a fool would put this up.
Feel free to shoot the messenger - I can take it
I guess it is almost impossible to get a legal tow vehicle to tow a caravan.
-- Edited by Bill B on Monday 21st of May 2018 09:49:49 AM
rockylizard said
09:51 AM May 21, 2018
Gday...
Ya probably rite Bill ... so ya got an extra 10>12 Kg back for payload ... making only about 110Kg over GVM
Cheers - John
Bill B said
09:56 AM May 21, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Ya probably rite Bill ... so ya got an extra 10>12 Kg back for payload ... making only about 110Kg over GVM
Cheers - John
No, a full fuel load is in the kerb weight so you are counting the full fuel load twice if using kerb weight as your base weight for your calcualtions.
rockylizard said
10:13 AM May 21, 2018
Bill B wrote:
No, a full fuel load is in the kerb weight so you are counting the full fuel load twice if using kerb weight as your base weight for your calculations.
Gday...
Well, actually Bill, as you corrected me - kerb weight includes 10 litres of fuel ... the tank holds 138 litres which means there are still 128 litres to add to the vehicle so that it can be used to drive and tow.
Therefore, the "fuel load" is not included twice in the exercise.
I concede the weights in the exercise will always be a bit 'rubbery' but it does give an indication just how close to the wind almost all vehicles are when expected to tow the maximum towing rating/capability the manufacturers put in their brochures.
Cheers - John
Bill B said
12:02 PM May 21, 2018
From the link I posted above :
Tare Mass or Weight
This is the weight of an empty standard vehicle with all of its fluids (oils, coolants) but with only 10 litres of fuel in the tank. We assume 10 litres was chosen as an industry standard to allow otherwise empty vehicles to be driven to and from a weighbridge.
Kerb Mass or Weight
This is the same as Tare Mass, but with a full tank of fuel and without any accessories fitted (bull bars, tow bars, roof racks etc). Think of it as your standard vehicle literally parked at the kerb and ready for you to get in and drive away.
rockylizard said
12:22 PM May 21, 2018
Gday...
Yep ... gotchya Bill ... check this link - I have updated the figures.
Am I glad I have MR licence and motorhome !! Looking at the numbers & weights . I think back when I towed a 3 horse float all over the country . In 1400 kg vehicles! Floats Unbracked . Wander us old codgers are STILL alive !!
Gday...
At first glance, the Patrols towing specs look good: it has a 3500kg maximum towing capacity, of which a maximum 350kg can rest on the towball. The Patrol has a 750kg payload and so when loaded to its 3500kg maximum Gross Vehicle Mass, itll still be able to tow its full 3500kg capacity (so Gross Combined Mass is 7000kg).
The downside is the Nissans 350kg maximum towball download becomes a 250kg maximum if you have loaded the Patrol to its 3500kg GVM. However, if you reduce payload in the Patrol by 70kg, (so its GVM is now 3430kg) maximum TBM is 300kg; reduce it by 100kg and TBM is 325kg. To use the maximum 350kg TBM, youll have to take 130kg out of the Patrol. As if towing weight legalities werent complicated enough already.
The Patrol does not have trailer sway control as part of its stability suite.
Full article here
Cheers - John
And yet another Nightmare with weights for an unsuspecting consumer....
Gday...
Or rather than getting totally confused trying to understand and comply with the configurations that Nissan have imposed it can be simply overcome.
Only tow a van weighing around 2,500Kg with a TBW of around 250Kg and load the vehicle upto its GVM (or less).
And that is basically what many "experts" suggest - towing a van that is X% less than the tow vehicle - in the case of this vehicle with a TARE of about 2.700Kg.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Saturday 19th of May 2018 09:02:02 AM
Absolutely safe and sensible provided the vanner knows what he ACTUALLY weighs. Very few people weigh their combinations so as to really know their situation
This forum and a couple of others cover this and similar topics for most vehicles rated for towing on a very regular basis.
These forums attract a reasonably high membership and as such if each member actually read all the information then we would assume that they are well informed.
Unfortunately many members arent interested in vehicle specs and dont read thosetopics.
Then there is the actual percentages of caravanners that are members on these fora which is probably a very low number.
My thoughts will always be along the lines of the manufacturer providing accurate information without the confusion of several varying scenarios usually partially hidden amongst other technical parts of handbooks so that the potential buyer can determine what they can and cant do with the vehicle.
While many on here and other media platforms choose to use smaller vans the clarity of the specifications shouls be easily available for those who may wish to use a bigger van.
We all need to remember if we do not exceed our ATM. Ball weight. GVM and GCM then we are legal in this country, irrespective of some peoples current views.
It is the specifications of the towing vehicle is where most come unstuck and if this could be provided by the manufacturer stating this is simple terms then this would go a long way to help.
As a start, something along the lines of
"if the gvm of this vehicle is at its maximum then you may only tow a trailer weighing xyz..." And this information needs to be clearly stated in writing in all brochures and advertising. Then let the manufacturers of 4wd utes and some other vehicles compete in marketing their products.
If done by legislation instead of marketing then we would all be in a better place and who knows; it might even encourage some van manufacturers to review their construction methods to provide a lighter unit with the mod cons.
If we intend to tow a van with a 350 kg tow-ball down load then we need to reduce Patrol payload by 130 kg.
We then put 350 kg tow-ball down load on Patrol and this is part of payload.
We have 750 payload to start, minus 130 kg, minus 350 kg leaving a payload of 270 kg. Not looking so good now, is it?
From the 270 kg take off 160 kg for Mrs & Mr Patrol owner and we are left with 110 kg payload.
Now what does the bull-bar, the extra spare wheel and the personal items in the Patrol weigh? Say 100 kg for example. This leaves us 10kg for fuel.
I think it is a good idea to have a tug with a great towing capability but if possible to limit van weights to say, 2/3 tug's capability.
Towing any 3,500 kg van is in fact mostly beyond the capability of standard 3,500 capable tugs because of either GVM or GCM.
Roy.
I think you have taken too much off. From how I read the article, if you have a ball weight of 350kg, then you only need to reduce payload by 130kg. I think you dont take the 350kk ball weight AND the 130kg payload reduction as well. However as you say 350kg is not a lot of spare carrying capacity with 2 adults fuel, etc.
Gday...
It is illegal to exceed the Patrol's GVM (3,500Kg) and if you wish to operate at that weight, then you need to not have a TBW greater than 250Kg.
With a TARE of 2,750Kg, add 250Kg TBW, 140Kg fuel, 150Kg (2 passengers), bullbar and other accessories ~100Kg, takes GVM to ~3,390Kg or 110Kg payload left.
As can be seen, despite how the "marketing" numbers are pushed, it is very difficult to tow anything more than a 2,500Kg van - and even then only with carefully chosen payload.
It is ludicrous to suggest, despite their advertising and printing of brochures, one is able to legally attain the GCM of 7,000Kg stated by Nissan - more likely only 6,000Kg.
One could be totally unkind and suggest the Patrol is 'not fit for (advertised) purpose".
And even the much praised LC 200 fares not much better. Indeed, there are very few vehicles available that can genuinely tow anywhere near their "advertised" maximum capabilities.
When ... not if ... the authorities begin to check the compliance of rigs on the road, there are going to be many owners who are going to be furious - and out of pocket.
........ and who's at fault?
Cheers - John
Absolutely spot on John.
The two posts immediately above this certainly give a great example of the confusion which currently exists with many tow vehicle specifications.
As you say it will come to a head for many one day.
If the Patrol has a van on behind with 350 kg tow-ball down-load (acceptable for the Patrol), the 350 kg ball-load is vehicle-load and that amount must be deducted from the allowable payload.
Cheers,
Roy.
Gday...
You are absolutely correct Roy.
So that would make the figures look like this -
OH
.... and of course, if the Patrol is AT GVM ... then the maximum mandated tow ball weight must not exceed 250Kg.
Feel like it is a merry-go-round?
As I said, the ACTUAL figures that Nissan should be promoting is that the maximum towing capacity is 2,500Kg and a TBW of 250Kg because if the GVM is reached (and it seems damned near impossible not to) then it is not allowed, ipso facto, to have more than 250Kg on the ball.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 20th of May 2018 01:53:20 PM
I believe every tug out there will probably have some or similar limits to the Patrol so if you plan to tow a 3,500kg monster, you'll need one of those Yankee things or a proper truck.
I know that when I looked at replacing my tug 18 months ago I found various problems with some potential tugs.
The Pajero, for example, can tow 3,000 kg max and can carry a ball load of 300 kg max but when towed load exceeds 2,500 kg, ball load max drops to 180 kg, effectively making absolute max Pajero can safely tow, 2,500 kg.
For every potential tug and van buyer it is a minefield with salesmen, generally little or no help or guide.
Cheers,
Roy.
Gday...
Yep HandyWaltear - there seems to be no rhyme nor reason to the numbers that they all come up with.
These are the numbers for the Discovery 4 (assuming the same usage as the Patrol) -
Cheers - John
A D4 does not have a GVM of 3500kg, so to tow a 3500kg van it would be heavier than the D4, which most people think is unacceptable, even though LT specs say it can legally tow such a weight! That is why my payload is only 682kg.
Gday...
OOPS .... my bad
I will plead that all these confusing numbers for vehicles/vans addled my poor liddle brain.
Discovery 4 numbers -
Cheers - John
Gday...
Yeah ... I know I know ... only a fool would put this up.
Feel free to shoot the messenger - I can take it
I guess it is almost impossible to get a legal tow vehicle to tow a caravan.
Cheers - John
( https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/vehicle-weights-explained-tare-kerb-gvm-payload-and-trailer-figures-37482) Tare weight includes nominal fluids (eg. 10 ltrs fuel)
-- Edited by Bill B on Monday 21st of May 2018 09:49:49 AM
Gday...
Ya probably rite Bill ... so ya got an extra 10>12 Kg back for payload ... making only about 110Kg over GVM
Cheers - John
No, a full fuel load is in the kerb weight so you are counting the full fuel load twice if using kerb weight as your base weight for your calcualtions.
Gday...
Well, actually Bill, as you corrected me - kerb weight includes 10 litres of fuel ... the tank holds 138 litres which means there are still 128 litres to add to the vehicle so that it can be used to drive and tow.
Therefore, the "fuel load" is not included twice in the exercise.
I concede the weights in the exercise will always be a bit 'rubbery' but it does give an indication just how close to the wind almost all vehicles are when expected to tow the maximum towing rating/capability the manufacturers put in their brochures.
Cheers - John
Tare Mass or Weight
This is the weight of an empty standard vehicle with all of its fluids (oils, coolants) but with only 10 litres of fuel in the tank. We assume 10 litres was chosen as an industry standard to allow otherwise empty vehicles to be driven to and from a weighbridge.
Kerb Mass or Weight
This is the same as Tare Mass, but with a full tank of fuel and without any accessories fitted (bull bars, tow bars, roof racks etc). Think of it as your standard vehicle literally parked at the kerb and ready for you to get in and drive away.
Gday...
Yep ... gotchya Bill ... check this link - I have updated the figures.
http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t64652971/i-really-am-masochistic/
Cheers - John