It is so unfortunate that reality is that one must actually purchase a van and vehicle BEFORE you can GENUINELY and ABSOLUTELY determine one is able to travel within the legal stated weights of vehicle and van.
One cannot go to a yard and load all the accessories/additions/personal items etc to the caravan (you have yet actually decided to buy) and then tow it to a weighbridge to see just how close to (or over) the stated ratings (ATM etc) it is for how you want to travel.
Similarly, one cannot rock up to the showroom of the various vehicles one likes, for a wide range of reasons, put the whole family into it, load it as you will when going off on your journey, then take it to that van yard you were just at, where that van you loaded before "just for the practice" is waiting, connect it all up, take the whole rig to that weighbridge and make sure it all complies with all those stated ratings by the manufacturers.
Obviously, while you have gone through this exercise, with every van and vehicle you want to purchase, you have been able to drive the vehicle and van through sufficient distance and terrain to ensure the vehicle can handle the weight of the van, the van tows safely and without sway etc.
The above scenario is obviously completely unworkable and unachievable.
Given how we all have to simply trust ..............
the vehicle manufacturer is accurate with the ratings of their vehicle
the vehicle manufacturer is accurate in their engineering expertise regarding the vehicle's abilities and capabilities
the van manufacturer is accurate and honest regarding the ratings stamped on their compliance plate
that we are honest about the weight of what we are going load into the vehicle to be below/at rated payload
that we are honest about the weight of what we are going to load into/ add to the van so that it is within the ratings and for the vans stability and safety...........
then, IF we have done sufficient planning, and that really is IF, BEFORE buying a vehicle and/or van we should be OK.
Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence suggests most rarely get it right - definitely not before buying the outfit.
The short story is do ALL the homework, UNDERSTAND the stated ratings/weights before you are able to load and drive the outfit, ASSUME these ratings and capabilities may be a little overstated ... and make sure you are nowhere near the maximum ratings or the vehicle AND van.
Cheers - and happy and safe travelling - John
Aus-Kiwi said
09:05 AM May 18, 2018
A legal person would possibly have it in writing as a pre purchase agreement that itâs legal to tow the van your purchasing ? Btw Iâm no legal person !!
Desert Dweller said
09:16 AM May 18, 2018
To simplify things why go so close to legal limits anyway?
Our Navara has a maximum towing capacity of 2800kg & maximum ball weight of 280kg.
Our 17ft caravans legal maximum weigh is 1580kg which is what we load it to. Ball weight is 170kg.
Simple really. Peace of mind rating 10/10.
Dickodownunder said
09:20 AM May 18, 2018
Yes John, some very valid points.
Unfortunately we do have to trust the information that is stamped on the plate and as well as what the dealer representative tells us.
Unfortunately the salesperson has a vested interest in the sale and is not that concerned, at least in some cases if what he / she is telling us is actually correct.
Ordering a van and varying from original spefication with accessories is fraught with danger as these accessories may have not been taken into account at the time of weighing.
Many have their own story, some good some not so good.
My personal situation when I bought my last van was that I bought it new off the showroom floor and all the accesories on it were fitted in the factory. This maintained the integrity of the tare weight as stated on the plate because it was weighed after build and before shipping.
Upon delivery I weighed it and the weigh note supplied by the dealer matched the weight on the plate plus the 18 kilos of gas and a few kilos for some water they put into the tanks for testing purposes. If I remember correctly my tare was 38 kilos above the stamped tare.
I could imagine that if my solar, Satellite dish and stone guard were supplied and fitted by the dealer then I would lose that capacity in weight.
The consumer wants his product with all the bells and whistles as ordered and the dealer wants the sale.
In my opinion if the van manufacturer rated the ATM of the van from the factory to maximum in every case then this would go a long way to help with payload woes that many experience.
Unfortunately while many consumers want to tow with underated towing vehicles then this will never happen...It is all about sales.
As you say John, doing the homework PRIOR to ordering the van and for that matter the tow vehicle will go along way toward a consumer avoiding heartache and stress further down the line.
If a consumer wants to carry more gear then sometimes the only option is to buy a bigger truck.
rockylizard said
09:21 AM May 18, 2018
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
A legal person would possibly have it in writing as a pre purchase agreement that itâs legal to tow the van your purchasing ? Btw I'm no legal person !!
Gday...
Perhaps it could be done in some legal format. However, would the buyer sign a contract that stipulated a mandated list of the only things you could add to the vehicle/van and the weight/s of those items?
I doubt there could be such a contract - and I doubt many of us could, over the period of our ownership, maintain the conditions contained within such a contract.
I would think that the manufacturers now have a 'legal pre-purchase agreement' that are called compliance plates.
Cheers - John
rockylizard said
09:23 AM May 18, 2018
Desert Dweller wrote:
To simplify things why go so close to legal limits anyway?
Our Navara has a maximum towing capacity of 2800kg & maximum ball weight of 280kg.
Our 17ft caravans legal maximum weigh is 1580kg which is what we load it to. Ball weight is 170kg.
Simple really. Peace of mind rating 10/10.
Gday...
Ya got it in one DD - like I sed - "The short story is do ALL the homework, UNDERSTAND the stated ratings/weights before you are able to load and drive the outfit, ASSUME these ratings and capabilities may be a little overstated ... and make sure you are nowhere near the maximum ratings or the vehicle AND van."
Cheers - John
Roy E said
09:57 AM May 18, 2018
Desert Dweller (Keith) has, IMHO, got it right with tug having far greater tow capability than his van.
My tug has a 3100 kg tow capability and a 310 kg tow ball download allowance. My van has an ATM of 2030 kg and a ball weight of 220 kg, normal loaded.
My only worry now is not exceeding van ATM which is just too easily done.
Cheers,
Roy.
Dickodownunder said
11:05 AM May 18, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
Desert Dweller wrote:
To simplify things why go so close to legal limits anyway?
Our Navara has a maximum towing capacity of 2800kg & maximum ball weight of 280kg.
Our 17ft caravans legal maximum weigh is 1580kg which is what we load it to. Ball weight is 170kg.
Simple really. Peace of mind rating 10/10.
Gday...
Ya got it in one DD - like I sed - "The short story is do ALL the homework, UNDERSTAND the stated ratings/weights before you are able to load and drive the outfit, ASSUME these ratings and capabilities may be a little overstated ... and make sure you are nowhere near the maximum ratings or the vehicle AND van."
Cheers - John
Wouldnt it be so easy (for both consumer and dealer/manufacturer) if all that intended towing a loaded van looked at it the way DD does.
Unfortunately in many scenarios this is not the case.
One only has to observe on here or even on other fora that people wish to tow big and heavy vans with less rhan suitable vehicles.
I imagine that the decision to do so is based around many varying of things some of which may be ASSUMING that the ratings and weights will be OK with their type and weight of van and vehicle and their estimated payload.
When weighed by the authorities
"Sorry officer, the dealer said I would be fine with this van and vehicle and I ASSUMED that all would be well"
and from the officer...
"Well Sir your vehicle and van are overweight so I suggest you pull over to that area and unload it until the combination becomes legal and here is your fine"
This scenario with all its consequences will become more and more frequent as insurance companies, road safety people police and anyone else with a vested interest insist that these regulations are enforced.
Just because many have been doing it for years without challenge does not mean that it is correct.
Most people on this forum at least are travelling for extended periods and the half day taken to attend a weigh bridge and adjust the loading of the combination so that it IS legal is surely worth the time to avoid any problem with the law.
As johns post mentioned, the weights and information cannot be trusted.
Do the homework and include all items including accessories fuel food beer wine and the dog BEFORE you make a purchase.
MAKE THE PURCHASE ONLY IF YOU ARE 100% positive that with ALL your requirements you will be within legal limits.
Weigh the caravan when it is empty immediately after delivery and inform the dealer that you will be doing this. Invite him / her along for the exercise.
Obtain the weight of ALL the accessories that you intend to fit to the tow vehicle and van and use these figures in your calculations.
Consider axle weights of the vehicle and tow ball and axle weights of the van when loading and ensure you will be within these specifications as it is these figures that you will be judged on at the weigh station.
Once you have covered all areas then set off and enjoy your travels knowing that you are legal and safe on the road.
SouthernComfort said
12:55 PM May 18, 2018
Working too close to stated limits of car and/or van will almost guarantee a problem, who needs the stress! I'm on the same page as most folks here i.e. don't trust stated limits and create your own comfortable operating margins. My tug is rated to tow 3500kg, ball rating 350kg. Van is 2123kg ATM and I never load it to more than 2020kg, ball is 200kg.
After we bought the van knowing what the plated numbers were, I laboriously weighed all the payload items on bathroom scales and once I'd loaded up and got to the weighbridge the reading was a couple of kilos under my estimate. We travel pretty light and don't carry much water so I have 100kg left in my ATM for contingencies. Car still has more payload capacity to spare than I could ever use. Best thing is, I'm not paranoid about finding a weighbridge every time I might slightly vary the load we're carrying. If I ever wanted to pull a van of around 3000-3500kg there's no way I'd put it behind my tug, I'd be looking for a vehicle at the next level.
Eaglemax said
08:25 PM May 18, 2018
Desert Dweller wrote:
To simplify things why go so close to legal limits anyway?
Our Navara has a maximum towing capacity of 2800kg & maximum ball weight of 280kg.
Our 17ft caravans legal maximum weigh is 1580kg which is what we load it to. Ball weight is 170kg.
Simple really. Peace of mind rating 10/10.
I'm with you DD. I cant see myself enjoying towing a 3 ton van around the country worrying if I should not have filled the water tanks or the porta potti.
If I purchased a van for my i30 Hyundai (towing capacity 1200kg braked) I wouldn't go over 900kg all loaded....and water in that potti!!
TheMonties said
08:32 AM May 31, 2018
Over the past 12 months or so I have researched a lot of the Aussie importers of US manufactured 5th wheel RVs. As well as that Ive also looked at the used units for sale and spoken with the owners about their rigs. For both of those scenarios, dealers and private sellers, I obtained the Actual US manufacturers model numbers, because some importers modify the model number, and researched the weights and cargo capacities of the original vehicles prior to import, and what the importer sells/sold them with according to their Australian compliance plates.
I found on many an occasion that there were Serious discrepancies in Tare, hitch and cargo capacities that modifications to chassis and suspensions would not account for.
One particular importer, more honest than most, was (still is) in the habit of importing +32 lights and ultralights that in the US were complied with ATM weights well in excess of 4500kg. He would then gain Australian compliance on his RVs that he had radically reduced the cargo capacity back to practically Zero so that he could get a sub 4500kg ATM compliance. On one particular 5er, it had a cargo capacity of 200kg, without batteries, gas cylinders or any fluids in tanks, let alone youre personal effects.
So the RV can take that extra load,,,sure it can, but the unaware buyer who might be ignorant of compliance plate details, and many new buyers are, they will buy a rig that can pull that 4499kg rated load, and be immediately overloaded and illegal, not to mention the car/truck will be struggling,,,,,unless of course you buy one of the remanufactured and 4490kg derated Ram, Silverado or F trucks that are being sold here now because people are too lazy to get an LR/MR licence,,,,,sure the truck can tow it, but youre still overloaded according to youre rating plate.
So yes, the OP is correct, you Must do youre research, but without knowing WHAT to research, there are still a multitude of traps to fall into because importers and sellers will not provide you with the correct information unless you ask the correct questions.
Thats why forums like this are important, people can share their experiences here.
Edit: I should add that my first caravan was 300kg heavier than stated on the manufacturers compliance plate, I weighed it after reading a post on another forum by an owner of the same brand. I contacted the manufacturer after being directed to them via the dealer and they refused to admit any knowledge of it either verbally or written. I did pass that on to its new owner when he purchased it. Fully loaded it still weighed less than the towing and gcm of his tow car.
-- Edited by TheMonties on Thursday 31st of May 2018 08:43:26 AM
-- Edited by TheMonties on Thursday 31st of May 2018 08:44:20 AM
Cyclops said
03:29 PM Jun 22, 2018
When We bought our preloved Bushtracker. The seller provided a weigh bridge cert with all water tanks full. Under 2760 with 320 kg of water and 200 ball. The van is rated to 3500. Simple, Get a weigh certificate for peace of mind.
Pete
Gday...
It is so unfortunate that reality is that one must actually purchase a van and vehicle BEFORE you can GENUINELY and ABSOLUTELY determine one is able to travel within the legal stated weights of vehicle and van.
One cannot go to a yard and load all the accessories/additions/personal items etc to the caravan (you have yet actually decided to buy) and then tow it to a weighbridge to see just how close to (or over) the stated ratings (ATM etc) it is for how you want to travel.
Similarly, one cannot rock up to the showroom of the various vehicles one likes, for a wide range of reasons, put the whole family into it, load it as you will when going off on your journey, then take it to that van yard you were just at, where that van you loaded before "just for the practice" is waiting, connect it all up, take the whole rig to that weighbridge and make sure it all complies with all those stated ratings by the manufacturers.
Obviously, while you have gone through this exercise, with every van and vehicle you want to purchase, you have been able to drive the vehicle and van through sufficient distance and terrain to ensure the vehicle can handle the weight of the van, the van tows safely and without sway etc.
The above scenario is obviously completely unworkable and unachievable.
Given how we all have to simply trust ..............
then, IF we have done sufficient planning, and that really is IF, BEFORE buying a vehicle and/or van we should be OK.
Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence suggests most rarely get it right - definitely not before buying the outfit.
The short story is do ALL the homework, UNDERSTAND the stated ratings/weights before you are able to load and drive the outfit, ASSUME these ratings and capabilities may be a little overstated ... and make sure you are nowhere near the maximum ratings or the vehicle AND van.
Cheers - and happy and safe travelling - John
Our Navara has a maximum towing capacity of 2800kg & maximum ball weight of 280kg.
Our 17ft caravans legal maximum weigh is 1580kg which is what we load it to. Ball weight is 170kg.
Simple really. Peace of mind rating 10/10.
Unfortunately we do have to trust the information that is stamped on the plate and as well as what the dealer representative tells us.
Unfortunately the salesperson has a vested interest in the sale and is not that concerned, at least in some cases if what he / she is telling us is actually correct.
Ordering a van and varying from original spefication with accessories is fraught with danger as these accessories may have not been taken into account at the time of weighing.
Many have their own story, some good some not so good.
My personal situation when I bought my last van was that I bought it new off the showroom floor and all the accesories on it were fitted in the factory. This maintained the integrity of the tare weight as stated on the plate because it was weighed after build and before shipping.
Upon delivery I weighed it and the weigh note supplied by the dealer matched the weight on the plate plus the 18 kilos of gas and a few kilos for some water they put into the tanks for testing purposes. If I remember correctly my tare was 38 kilos above the stamped tare.
I could imagine that if my solar, Satellite dish and stone guard were supplied and fitted by the dealer then I would lose that capacity in weight.
The consumer wants his product with all the bells and whistles as ordered and the dealer wants the sale.
In my opinion if the van manufacturer rated the ATM of the van from the factory to maximum in every case then this would go a long way to help with payload woes that many experience.
Unfortunately while many consumers want to tow with underated towing vehicles then this will never happen...It is all about sales.
As you say John, doing the homework PRIOR to ordering the van and for that matter the tow vehicle will go along way toward a consumer avoiding heartache and stress further down the line.
If a consumer wants to carry more gear then sometimes the only option is to buy a bigger truck.
Gday...
Perhaps it could be done in some legal format. However, would the buyer sign a contract that stipulated a mandated list of the only things you could add to the vehicle/van and the weight/s of those items?
I doubt there could be such a contract - and I doubt many of us could, over the period of our ownership, maintain the conditions contained within such a contract.
I would think that the manufacturers now have a 'legal pre-purchase agreement' that are called compliance plates.
Cheers - John
Gday...
Ya got it in one DD
- like I sed - "The short story is do ALL the homework, UNDERSTAND the stated ratings/weights before you are able to load and drive the outfit, ASSUME these ratings and capabilities may be a little overstated ... and make sure you are nowhere near the maximum ratings or the vehicle AND van."
Cheers - John
My tug has a 3100 kg tow capability and a 310 kg tow ball download allowance. My van has an ATM of 2030 kg and a ball weight of 220 kg, normal loaded.
My only worry now is not exceeding van ATM which is just too easily done.
Cheers,
Roy.
Wouldnt it be so easy (for both consumer and dealer/manufacturer) if all that intended towing a loaded van looked at it the way DD does.
Unfortunately in many scenarios this is not the case.
One only has to observe on here or even on other fora that people wish to tow big and heavy vans with less rhan suitable vehicles.
I imagine that the decision to do so is based around many varying of things some of which may be ASSUMING that the ratings and weights will be OK with their type and weight of van and vehicle and their estimated payload.
When weighed by the authorities
"Sorry officer, the dealer said I would be fine with this van and vehicle and I ASSUMED that all would be well"
and from the officer...
"Well Sir your vehicle and van are overweight so I suggest you pull over to that area and unload it until the combination becomes legal and here is your fine"
This scenario with all its consequences will become more and more frequent as insurance companies, road safety people police and anyone else with a vested interest insist that these regulations are enforced.
Just because many have been doing it for years without challenge does not mean that it is correct.
Most people on this forum at least are travelling for extended periods and the half day taken to attend a weigh bridge and adjust the loading of the combination so that it IS legal is surely worth the time to avoid any problem with the law.
As johns post mentioned, the weights and information cannot be trusted.
Do the homework and include all items including accessories fuel food beer wine and the dog BEFORE you make a purchase.
MAKE THE PURCHASE ONLY IF YOU ARE 100% positive that with ALL your requirements you will be within legal limits.
Weigh the caravan when it is empty immediately after delivery and inform the dealer that you will be doing this. Invite him / her along for the exercise.
Obtain the weight of ALL the accessories that you intend to fit to the tow vehicle and van and use these figures in your calculations.
Consider axle weights of the vehicle and tow ball and axle weights of the van when loading and ensure you will be within these specifications as it is these figures that you will be judged on at the weigh station.
Once you have covered all areas then set off and enjoy your travels knowing that you are legal and safe on the road.
Working too close to stated limits of car and/or van will almost guarantee a problem, who needs the stress! I'm on the same page as most folks here i.e. don't trust stated limits and create your own comfortable operating margins. My tug is rated to tow 3500kg, ball rating 350kg. Van is 2123kg ATM and I never load it to more than 2020kg, ball is 200kg.
After we bought the van knowing what the plated numbers were, I laboriously weighed all the payload items on bathroom scales and once I'd loaded up and got to the weighbridge the reading was a couple of kilos under my estimate. We travel pretty light and don't carry much water so I have 100kg left in my ATM for contingencies. Car still has more payload capacity to spare than I could ever use. Best thing is, I'm not paranoid about finding a weighbridge every time I might slightly vary the load we're carrying. If I ever wanted to pull a van of around 3000-3500kg there's no way I'd put it behind my tug, I'd be looking for a vehicle at the next level.
I'm with you DD. I cant see myself enjoying towing a 3 ton van around the country worrying if I should not have filled the water tanks or the porta potti.
If I purchased a van for my i30 Hyundai (towing capacity 1200kg braked) I wouldn't go over 900kg all loaded....and water in that potti!!
Over the past 12 months or so I have researched a lot of the Aussie importers of US manufactured 5th wheel RVs. As well as that Ive also looked at the used units for sale and spoken with the owners about their rigs.
For both of those scenarios, dealers and private sellers, I obtained the Actual US manufacturers model numbers, because some importers modify the model number, and researched the weights and cargo capacities of the original vehicles prior to import, and what the importer sells/sold them with according to their Australian compliance plates.
I found on many an occasion that there were Serious discrepancies in Tare, hitch and cargo capacities that modifications to chassis and suspensions would not account for.
One particular importer, more honest than most, was (still is) in the habit of importing +32 lights and ultralights that in the US were complied with ATM weights well in excess of 4500kg.
He would then gain Australian compliance on his RVs that he had radically reduced the cargo capacity back to practically Zero so that he could get a sub 4500kg ATM compliance. On one particular 5er, it had a cargo capacity of 200kg, without batteries, gas cylinders or any fluids in tanks, let alone youre personal effects.
So the RV can take that extra load,,,sure it can, but the unaware buyer who might be ignorant of compliance plate details, and many new buyers are, they will buy a rig that can pull that 4499kg rated load, and be immediately overloaded and illegal, not to mention the car/truck will be struggling,,,,,unless of course you buy one of the remanufactured and 4490kg derated Ram, Silverado or F trucks that are being sold here now because people are too lazy to get an LR/MR licence,,,,,sure the truck can tow it, but youre still overloaded according to youre rating plate.
So yes, the OP is correct, you Must do youre research, but without knowing WHAT to research, there are still a multitude of traps to fall into because importers and sellers will not provide you with the correct information unless you ask the correct questions.
Thats why forums like this are important, people can share their experiences here.
Edit: I should add that my first caravan was 300kg heavier than stated on the manufacturers compliance plate, I weighed it after reading a post on another forum by an owner of the same brand. I contacted the manufacturer after being directed to them via the dealer and they refused to admit any knowledge of it either verbally or written. I did pass that on to its new owner when he purchased it. Fully loaded it still weighed less than the towing and gcm of his tow car.
-- Edited by TheMonties on Thursday 31st of May 2018 08:43:26 AM
-- Edited by TheMonties on Thursday 31st of May 2018 08:44:20 AM
Pete