In a recent thread, and from time to time, it has been raised that consideration should be given to legislating or mandating the "rule" that the tow vehicle should be heavier than the caravan being towed.
There have been a range of ideas on what that difference should be ranging from caravan being 10% lighter than the tow vehicle right through to 25% lighter.
I had a few spare moments yesterday so I indulged myself and put together this table to see what the effect would be for a few of the vehicles on the road should there be regulated/mandated towing capacities related to GVM of tow vehicles.
If any such regulation or mandating were introduced, and was not grandfathered ie not applied to all existing combinations, but only applied to combinations bought from a future date there would a considerable disruption to caravanning. How would you fare?
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Tuesday 24th of April 2018 09:26:18 AM
Bagmaker said
09:23 AM Apr 24, 2018
what about for 5th wheelers or similar?
Prime mover trucks are a fraction of the full rig weight, you might be over-simplifiing the problem.
rockylizard said
09:31 AM Apr 24, 2018
Bagmaker wrote:
what about for 5th wheelers or similar? Prime mover trucks are a fraction of the full rig weight, you might be over-simplifiing the problem.
Gday...
Sorry ... don't shoot the messenger
(I have edited my post to state caravan and not trailer).
I am only reflecting what has been bandied around for a few years now (perhaps decades actually) that the tow vehicle should exceed the weight of the caravan.
It has been a bit like the 'rule' that towball weight must be 10% of ATM.
As you would be aware, the towing situation of a pig trailer is vastly different to a prime mover/5th wheeler.
The post is simply providing food for thought - not a position I am necessarily advocating.
Cheers - John
Delta18 said
10:14 AM Apr 24, 2018
Interesting.
I can't comment on the accuracy of your figures except for one.
You have D-Max GVM as 2850kg where in fact all the current series bar one is 2950kg.
The current, MY18 is actually 3050kg.
Cheers.
Leo said
10:47 AM Apr 24, 2018
John (rockylizard),
It should encourage better manufacturers to enter the market to the benefit of consumers and other road users. Those who are prepared to move with the times (long overdue) and use improved design and lightweight materials.
Dougwe said
10:52 AM Apr 24, 2018
Mmmm,Rocky,
Not sure where the figures came from mate but my 2014 Colorado is 3300 GVM (in the book) but it is under in all areas. The Aluminium TeePee has an ATM of 2720kg but I tow 2600kg. Tow Ball is 350kg max but I have 250kg.
I HAVE been pulled over by 'Vic Roads' just south of Wodonga a few weeks back and was checked for all weights, shackles, chains and yes, even the height of the number plate but the two blokes laughed when they went around back to check number plate as after some work I did three years back It is just about rear bumper height. I was told "Well done" and travel safe. I was also thanked for the effort I had put in to make sure all weights were OK. Out of the three of us on the side of the road two of us left with a thankyou and one was told to move over to the side and I can only guess he was given a fine or at least a big talking to.
It was NOT one of the courtesy checks. It was the real thing.
Leo said
10:56 AM Apr 24, 2018
My post was referring to caravans. I imagine that the load limits would have most impact there.
A caravan is an engineless road vehicle that has somehow majorly escaped the attention of regulators. That is not to the advantage of consumers and other road users.
-- Edited by Leo on Tuesday 24th of April 2018 11:27:24 AM
Yuglamron said
12:29 PM Apr 24, 2018
This is a link to the Caravan Council of Australia's website. They are supposedly and independent advisory body to the industry.
Makes interesting comparison's about different countries rules and recommendations.
I am sure people will say that the recommended towing weight of their vehicle is greater than the stated weights on this page.
Probably true but as we go on more and bigger caravans are coming on-stream, and vehicle towing capacities change. The underlying principle that the tow vehicle should weigh more or equal to the towed vehicle according to a lot of experts.
It doesn't require a huge mass to push around a larger mass when motion and momentum is factored into the equation. That's the very reason legislation and towing guidelines moved away from proportions and placed engineering higher up the list.
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:01 PM Apr 24, 2018
I suggest that it is quite inappropriate and misleading to use ATM and GVM in this context.
ATM and GVM are rated maximums and may bear little resemblance to actual weights on the road.
What is needed is for the ACTUAL weights of the trailer and tug to be in appropriate proportions.
Cheers,
Peter
The Belmont Bear said
09:48 PM Apr 24, 2018
Interesting numbers John but I understand at the moment that in this country it is not yet a legal requirement to meet them. I imagine that governments would need to weigh up very careully the cost to the economy if they did make it law especially for the caravan industry, vehicle manufacturers, tourism, small towns that rely on passing travellers and holiday makers etc. etc. Too bad for all those retirees or for the families on limited incomes who would then be forced off the road because they couldn't afford to upgrade their rigs to meet the new regulations. On the positive side I reckon you would have the pick of thousands of vans and tugs that would become redundent - good luck to those unfortunates trying to get some of their money back in a suddenly saturated market. I don't see how any government could justify a grandfather clause on tow weights if the decision was taken due to safety concerns obviously it would be unsafe for anyone to carry on as is. My own personal situation is that I am currently operating around that 90% number but no way would I be able to do it at 75% because that's getting too close to the tare weight of the van.
Cheers
BB
rockylizard said
10:14 PM Apr 24, 2018
The Belmont Bear wrote:
Interesting numbers John but I understand at the moment that in this country it is not yet a legal requirement to meet them. I imagine that governments would need to weigh up very careully the cost to the economy if they did make it law especially for the caravan industry, vehicle manufacturers, tourism, small towns that rely on passing travellers and holiday makers etc. etc. Too bad for all those retirees or for the families on limited incomes who would then be forced off the road because they couldn't afford to upgrade their rigs to meet the new regulations. On the positive side I reckon you would have the pick of thousands of vans and tugs that would become redundent - good luck to those unfortunates trying to get some of their money back in a suddenly saturated market. I don't see how any government could justify a grandfather clause on tow weights if the decision was taken due to safety concerns obviously it would be unsafe for anyone to carry on as is. My own personal situation is that I am currently operating around that 90% number but no way would I be able to do it at 75% because that's getting too close to the tare weight of the van.
Cheers
BB
Gday...
I need to realise that I am a very poor communicator. Even more so, I need to take more time to fully detail just what the hell I am talking about.
Let me extrapolate a little -
the GVM figures in the table are from Redbook for the various variants of those makes/models;
I am NOT intimating there is ANY legal requirement for the adherence to the figures in the table;
I am NOT advocating that any 'rule/legislation/requirement' is imminent or proposed - or that such 'rule/legislation/requirement' should be imminent or proposed;
the purpose, seemingly a little misunderstood (my fault), was to simply provide food for thought for the oft-repeated suggestions that the caravan should be less weight than the tow vehicle by X%;
I chose GVM as a beginning, as that is what would determine the maximum legal weight of a given vehicle;
I choose ATM as that is the most referred weight used to describe the weight (mass) of a caravan;
I simplistically thought the table might provide food for thought in a theoretical environment.
I wondered that IF, repeat IF, such a 'rule' was introduced - ie that the caravan must weight less than the tow vehicle - how it would turn the existing caravanning and motoring industry on its head.
However, if one was to assume that it was indeed much safer that the caravan weigh less than the tow vehicle then there would be very few existing combinations on the road at the moment that would be so-called "safe".
Cheers - I will try harder next time (if there is a next time) to be clearer in my misplaced ponderings - John
aussie_paul said
10:23 PM Apr 24, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
{snip Cheers - I will try harder next time (if there is a next time) to be clearer in my misplaced ponderings - John
Please be a next time John, I enjoy the various topics.
Aussie Paul.
blaze said
12:19 AM Apr 25, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
The Belmont Bear wrote:
Interesting numbers John but I understand at the moment that in this country it is not yet a legal requirement to meet them. I imagine that governments would need to weigh up very careully the cost to the economy if they did make it law especially for the caravan industry, vehicle manufacturers, tourism, small towns that rely on passing travellers and holiday makers etc. etc. Too bad for all those retirees or for the families on limited incomes who would then be forced off the road because they couldn't afford to upgrade their rigs to meet the new regulations. On the positive side I reckon you would have the pick of thousands of vans and tugs that would become redundent - good luck to those unfortunates trying to get some of their money back in a suddenly saturated market. I don't see how any government could justify a grandfather clause on tow weights if the decision was taken due to safety concerns obviously it would be unsafe for anyone to carry on as is. My own personal situation is that I am currently operating around that 90% number but no way would I be able to do it at 75% because that's getting too close to the tare weight of the van.
Cheers
BB
Gday...
I need to realise that I am a very poor communicator. Even more so, I need to take more time to fully detail just what the hell I am talking about.
Let me extrapolate a little -
the GVM figures in the table are from Redbook for the various variants of those makes/models;
I am NOT intimating there is ANY legal requirement for the adherence to the figures in the table;
I am NOT advocating that any 'rule/legislation/requirement' is imminent or proposed - or that such 'rule/legislation/requirement' should be imminent or proposed;
the purpose, seemingly a little misunderstood (my fault), was to simply provide food for thought for the oft-repeated suggestions that the caravan should be less weight than the tow vehicle by X%;
I chose GVM as a beginning, as that is what would determine the maximum legal weight of a given vehicle;
I choose ATM as that is the most referred weight used to describe the weight (mass) of a caravan;
I simplistically thought the table might provide food for thought in a theoretical environment.
I wondered that IF, repeat IF, such a 'rule' was introduced - ie that the caravan must weight less than the tow vehicle - how it would turn the existing caravanning and motoring industry on its head.
However, if one was to assume that it was indeed much safer that the caravan weigh less than the tow vehicle then there would be very few existing combinations on the road at the moment that would be so-called "safe".
Cheers - I will try harder next time (if there is a next time) to be clearer in my misplaced ponderings - John
Hi John
Your original post was easy to understand the concept yo were putting forward, some try to read the non excising text between your thoughts
cheers
blaze
montie said
06:29 AM Apr 25, 2018
Most tugs these days have GVM's in the order of 3200/3300kg so achieving a 10% weight ratio in favour of the tug is not at all difficult. Vans with ATM's in the order of 2900/3000 kg would be fine.
In fact the vast majority of rigs out there at the moment have weight ratio's in favour of the tugs.
The problem arises when you go out and purchase a 3.5tonne ATM van and want to tow it with a Ford Ranger!
The Belmont Bear said
07:52 AM Apr 25, 2018
John forgive me I think I was the one who was not very clear in my response or maybe the point that I was trying to make. I wasn't intending to have a go at you and I definately wasn't suggesting that you were advocating this as you had already clarified your position in your second post. I was just pointing out that as it is not currently a legal requirement and any government who decided to go this way would need to think very carefully about the ramifications that it could have for a large number of people in the community. I also suggested that it would be difficult to bring in this type of regulation in over a period of time i.e. a grandfather clause because once you have determined that something is unsafe then it would be immoral to leave some people at risk. My GC wasn't even on your list but the GVM is similar to the Prado, Hilux or Navara so I find myself in a similar situation to the owners of those vehicles and even now although my van has an ATM of 3200kg like Dougwe I opt to keep it at around 2,7T. My post was only meant to promote discussion because the changes the experts are suggesting would be hugely unpopular and in my opinion wouldn't be a great vote grabber for any political party.
In summary John I think the topic was a good one and your table made it clear for people and what it would mean for them if it happened to be applied. Please read my response as a comment on how difficult it would be for the authorities to implement this type of change and not as a criticism of either yourself or the topic.
Cheers
BB
Kebbin said
08:28 AM Apr 25, 2018
Hey Rocky, I find your posts informative, thought provoking and at times humorous good and baddd humour. Why people are expecting you to be spot on everytime you post, I don't know but we must take that into account with all posts by forum members because we are all fallible, except of course those exulted experts amoungst us, Not!
Dickodownunder said
09:46 AM Apr 25, 2018
Hi Rocky,
A good post and a simplistic approach to caravan / tow vehicle weights.
Your question; How would you fare?
I have a GVM on my vehicle of 3800kg and an ATM on my van of 3420kg.
This falls into your listing at 90%
The engineer that upgraded my van stated that my van could go to 3500kg but suggested keeping it at 3420 so as to maintain a balance.
I was happy with his suggestion as I am nowhere near maximum weights with either unit and prefer to carry weight in the tow vehicle when possible.
My actual weights are 3150 kg on the van (no water) and 3580kg on the tow vehicle fully loaded with tow ball weight, mum, fuel, tools, beer and wine etc. which is a tad less than 90% (approx 88%)
With a tow ball weight of 310 kg I feel I fall into the same category as Dougwe and I would not be of concern if my unit was weighed under the current regulations.
I probably should also mention that my GCM is 7300kg.
Leo said
09:53 AM Apr 25, 2018
rockylizard wrote:
[snip]
I wondered that IF, repeat IF, such a 'rule' was introduced - ie that the caravan must weight less than the tow vehicle - how it would turn the existing caravanning and motoring industry on its head.
However, if one was to assume that it was indeed much safer that the caravan weigh less than the tow vehicle then there would be very few existing combinations on the road at the moment that would be so-called "safe".
[snip]
John,
Perhaps the focus shouldn't be on the tow vehicle. Australia is a small market and the way ahead for motor vehicles is obvious from what has been happening to passenger vehicles. - Where one day and despite the red flags showing for years, dealers and their wiling 'meeja' commentariat were most 'surprised' to find that the bottom had dropped out of the large and medium car market.
The question is whether the 'old skool' heavy caravans are sustainable in a world of high fuel prices, diminishing fuel supplies (made worse by the fact that Australia has no reserve of fuel in the event of a supply interruption) and with so many more calls on the wallet than years ago (from diversified taxes and 'user pays', as examples).
The weight savings have to come from somewhere. What should an innovative caravan manufacturer who wants to stay in business be contributing? Threatening government with claimed loss of jobs didn't work where car manufacturing was concerned. Because the global forces at work are outside of government tweaking and subsidies and protection are not politically viable.
Gday
In a recent thread, and from time to time, it has been raised that consideration should be given to legislating or mandating the "rule" that the tow vehicle should be heavier than the caravan being towed.
There have been a range of ideas on what that difference should be ranging from caravan being 10% lighter than the tow vehicle right through to 25% lighter.
I had a few spare moments yesterday so I indulged myself and put together this table to see what the effect would be for a few of the vehicles on the road should there be regulated/mandated towing capacities related to GVM of tow vehicles.
If any such regulation or mandating were introduced, and was not grandfathered ie not applied to all existing combinations, but only applied to combinations bought from a future date there would a considerable disruption to caravanning. How would you fare?
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Tuesday 24th of April 2018 09:26:18 AM
Prime mover trucks are a fraction of the full rig weight, you might be over-simplifiing the problem.
Gday...
Sorry ... don't shoot the messenger
(I have edited my post to state caravan and not trailer).
I am only reflecting what has been bandied around for a few years now (perhaps decades actually) that the tow vehicle should exceed the weight of the caravan.
It has been a bit like the 'rule' that towball weight must be 10% of ATM.
As you would be aware, the towing situation of a pig trailer is vastly different to a prime mover/5th wheeler.
The post is simply providing food for thought - not a position I am necessarily advocating.
Cheers - John
Interesting.
I can't comment on the accuracy of your figures except for one.
You have D-Max GVM as 2850kg where in fact all the current series bar one is 2950kg.
The current, MY18 is actually 3050kg.
Cheers.
It should encourage better manufacturers to enter the market to the benefit of consumers and other road users. Those who are prepared to move with the times (long overdue) and use improved design and lightweight materials.
Not sure where the figures came from mate but my 2014 Colorado is 3300 GVM (in the book) but it is under in all areas. The Aluminium TeePee has an ATM of 2720kg but I tow 2600kg. Tow Ball is 350kg max but I have 250kg.
I HAVE been pulled over by 'Vic Roads' just south of Wodonga a few weeks back and was checked for all weights, shackles, chains and yes, even the height of the number plate but the two blokes laughed when they went around back to check number plate as after some work I did three years back It is just about rear bumper height. I was told "Well done" and travel safe. I was also thanked for the effort I had put in to make sure all weights were OK. Out of the three of us on the side of the road two of us left with a thankyou and one was told to move over to the side and I can only guess he was given a fine or at least a big talking to.
It was NOT one of the courtesy checks. It was the real thing.
My post was referring to caravans. I imagine that the load limits would have most impact there.
A caravan is an engineless road vehicle that has somehow majorly escaped the attention of regulators. That is not to the advantage of consumers and other road users.
-- Edited by Leo on Tuesday 24th of April 2018 11:27:24 AM
This is a link to the Caravan Council of Australia's website. They are supposedly and independent advisory body to the industry.
Makes interesting comparison's about different countries rules and recommendations.
I am sure people will say that the recommended towing weight of their vehicle is greater than the stated weights on this page.
Probably true but as we go on more and bigger caravans are coming on-stream, and vehicle towing capacities change. The underlying principle that the tow vehicle should weigh more or equal to the towed vehicle according to a lot of experts.
https://caravanbuyersguide.com.au/tow-vehicle-caravan-weight/
ATM and GVM are rated maximums and may bear little resemblance to actual weights on the road.
What is needed is for the ACTUAL weights of the trailer and tug to be in appropriate proportions.
Cheers,
Peter
Interesting numbers John but I understand at the moment that in this country it is not yet a legal requirement to meet them. I imagine that governments would need to weigh up very careully the cost to the economy if they did make it law especially for the caravan industry, vehicle manufacturers, tourism, small towns that rely on passing travellers and holiday makers etc. etc. Too bad for all those retirees or for the families on limited incomes who would then be forced off the road because they couldn't afford to upgrade their rigs to meet the new regulations. On the positive side I reckon you would have the pick of thousands of vans and tugs that would become redundent - good luck to those unfortunates trying to get some of their money back in a suddenly saturated market. I don't see how any government could justify a grandfather clause on tow weights if the decision was taken due to safety concerns obviously it would be unsafe for anyone to carry on as is. My own personal situation is that I am currently operating around that 90% number but no way would I be able to do it at 75% because that's getting too close to the tare weight of the van.
Cheers
BB
Gday...
I need to realise that I am a very poor communicator.
Even more so, I need to take more time to fully detail just what the hell I am talking about. 
Let me extrapolate a little -
I wondered that IF, repeat IF, such a 'rule' was introduced - ie that the caravan must weight less than the tow vehicle - how it would turn the existing caravanning and motoring industry on its head.
However, if one was to assume that it was indeed much safer that the caravan weigh less than the tow vehicle then there would be very few existing combinations on the road at the moment that would be so-called "safe".
Cheers - I will try harder next time (if there is a next time) to be clearer in my misplaced ponderings
- John
Please be a next time John, I enjoy the various topics.
Aussie Paul.
Hi John
Your original post was easy to understand the concept yo were putting forward, some try to read the non excising text between your thoughts
cheers
blaze
In fact the vast majority of rigs out there at the moment have weight ratio's in favour of the tugs.
The problem arises when you go out and purchase a 3.5tonne ATM van and want to tow it with a Ford Ranger!
In summary John I think the topic was a good one and your table made it clear for people and what it would mean for them if it happened to be applied. Please read my response as a comment on how difficult it would be for the authorities to implement this type of change and not as a criticism of either yourself or the topic.
Cheers
BB
A good post and a simplistic approach to caravan / tow vehicle weights.
Your question; How would you fare?
I have a GVM on my vehicle of 3800kg and an ATM on my van of 3420kg.
This falls into your listing at 90%
The engineer that upgraded my van stated that my van could go to 3500kg but suggested keeping it at 3420 so as to maintain a balance.
I was happy with his suggestion as I am nowhere near maximum weights with either unit and prefer to carry weight in the tow vehicle when possible.
My actual weights are 3150 kg on the van (no water) and 3580kg on the tow vehicle fully loaded with tow ball weight, mum, fuel, tools, beer and wine etc. which is a tad less than 90% (approx 88%)
With a tow ball weight of 310 kg I feel I fall into the same category as Dougwe and I would not be of concern if my unit was weighed under the current regulations.
I probably should also mention that my GCM is 7300kg.
John,
Perhaps the focus shouldn't be on the tow vehicle. Australia is a small market and the way ahead for motor vehicles is obvious from what has been happening to passenger vehicles. - Where one day and despite the red flags showing for years, dealers and their wiling 'meeja' commentariat were most 'surprised' to find that the bottom had dropped out of the large and medium car market.
The question is whether the 'old skool' heavy caravans are sustainable in a world of high fuel prices, diminishing fuel supplies (made worse by the fact that Australia has no reserve of fuel in the event of a supply interruption) and with so many more calls on the wallet than years ago (from diversified taxes and 'user pays', as examples).
The weight savings have to come from somewhere. What should an innovative caravan manufacturer who wants to stay in business be contributing? Threatening government with claimed loss of jobs didn't work where car manufacturing was concerned. Because the global forces at work are outside of government tweaking and subsidies and protection are not politically viable.