In my last caravan I happily ran a power lead from the 1000 watt inverter in the van boot to power inlet plug in the side of the van. Simple to do after changing the female plug from a 10 amp to a 15 amp plug. Providing I only used low wattage double insulated items (two pin plugs not three pin) off grid life very simple as small 240 volt items could be run from any power point in the van, EG. small hair dryer, electric fan, chargers and Vast television box. The inverter was not big enough to run large items requiring a three pin plug.
Whilst looking to order a new van every manufacturer I spoke to said what I was doing was illegal and potentially deadly should there be an electrical fault. I am not electrically qualified in any way, but, I am having trouble understanding why there is a possible problem.
I am now wondering if it is legal or potentially deadly to run a lead from the generator to the power inlet on the caravan to run an air conditioner, toaster, jug or microwave as many of us do. It seems possible this practise could be worse than using an inverter in the manner described above.
Is there someone who can tell me the correct thing to do?
-- Edited by KAYOS on Saturday 3rd of February 2018 07:38:22 PM
lizard said
01:34 PM Feb 3, 2018
gotta change the van RCD to a RVD
Peter_n_Margaret said
01:36 PM Feb 3, 2018
1. Under the circumstances you describe, either with the inverter or the generator, your RCD safety switch will not function (even though it will seem to test OK).
2. It is illegal to have a 10A plug on one end of an extension cord and a 15A socket on the other end (or visa versa).
Cheers,
Peter
Aus-Kiwi said
01:53 PM Feb 3, 2018
Please donât let this get into ANOTHER one of those s/fight threads .. Strange thing is thereâs no protection through inverter either . Doesnât make it right though . Being low wattage . May as well just run it direct off inverter ? Or buying new van ? Have one fitted with newer safety standards . Where it isolates when mains power is connected .
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:13 PM Feb 3, 2018
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Strange thing is thereâs no protection through inverter either .
The risk is when 2 or more earthed appliances are plugged in at the same time. That risk does not exist with double insulated appliances.
This is why inverters that are not hard wired only have one outlet.
I would also recommend an RVD to replace the RCD.
Cheers,
Peter
KAYOS said
10:28 PM Feb 3, 2018
I thank you, Lizard, Peter and Aus-Kiwi for your replies. I now have some idea of what a RCD and a RVD is and what they do.
I could not see that double insulated appliances could cause a problem, nor could I understand how earthed appliances, EG. hot water, refrigerator and air conditioner, that are plugged into or connected to the vans 240 volt system could cause a potential problem when they are all turned off when the 1000 watt inverter was being used. I only ever had double insulated appliances active when the inverter was in use.
Kiwi - Aus, You put a question mark after "or ordering a new van", we ordered a 20'6" Bushmaster last December, we flew back from Melbourne yesterday after making some changes before the build begins. The Bushmaster will be the fifth van for us and hopefully the last, thus the reason for the post.
Will now be interested to know if a Honda e2 can be legally and safely connected to a caravan 240 volt input or if the Honda generator has magic device inbuilt to get over the earthing problem?
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:30 PM Feb 3, 2018
KAYOS wrote:
Will now be interested to know if a Honda e2 can be legally and safely connected to a caravan 240 volt input or if the Honda generator has magic device inbuilt to get over the earthing problem?
No magic devise :)
What you have is an isolated supply. It is NOT advisable to attempt to earth the generator, but I would strongly recommend an RVD.
If the van input is a 15A plug, then the generator output needs also to be 15A socket otherwise if it is only 10A you will need an Ampfabian converter to stay legal.
Cheers,
Peter
KAYOS said
11:58 PM Feb 3, 2018
Thanks Peter, Will contact the van manufacturer re RVD device and anything else they install for safe operation of inverters and generators.
Inland_Sailor said
08:19 AM Feb 4, 2018
Can someone please explain what the RCD and RVD's are and what they do for those of us that don't understand those acronyms?
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:15 AM Feb 4, 2018
The RCD (Residual Current Devise) is your standard safety switch. An RVD (Residual Voltage Devise) is a relatively new, Australian development that provides an extra level of safety especially for generators, inverters and other isolated electrical supplies. It is fully approved, but not yet mandatory. https://www.rvdsafe.com.au/
As an aside, the 240V electrical system in the OKA was fully approved. The 8 power points are only supplied from the inverter. After 10 years I discovered that the mandatory safety switch (RCD) was in fact useless. I had it changed to an RVD.
Cheers, Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 4th of February 2018 09:19:44 AM
Residual current device . Need the other type which switches on volts . RVD .
Phillipn said
12:52 PM Feb 4, 2018
What is a combined RCD/MCB? Will one of these provide the same protection as an RVD?
-- Edited by Phillipn on Sunday 4th of February 2018 01:30:34 PM
pomme said
03:14 PM Feb 4, 2018
RVDŽ SPECIFICATION
The Residual Voltage Detection Unit RVDŽ-EI electrically connected to the power circuit RCBO is designed for use in floating IT electrical earthing systems. The combination of the RCBO/RVDŽ-EI provides both over current and Earth Leakage fault protection from either L1 or L2 to the RVDŽ-EI Sense Line which must be connected to the power circuit GPO earth terminal or the earth/frame depending on the electrical distribution system implemented. If the RVDŽ-EI unit detects an earth/frame voltage or leakage current from either L1 or L2 to the RVDŽ-EI Sense Line above the specifications detailed below, RVDŽ-EI will automatically trip the electrically connected RCD/RCBO and isolate the supply voltage to the load. The RVDŽ-EI overcomes the problems associated with Earth Neutral Bonding that can suffer from High Impedance where an RCD/RCBO may not work and may also compromise the isolation of the input to output requirement of Inverters and Generators.
Pomme.
oldtrack123 said
12:05 PM Feb 6, 2018
KAYOS wrote:
In my last caravan I happily ran a power lead from the 1000 watt inverter in the van boot to power inlet plug in the side of the van.
[a]Simple to do after changing the female plug from a 10 amp to a 15 amp plug.
Providing I only used low wattage double insulated items (two pin plugs not three pin) off grid life very simple as small 240 volt items could be run from any power point in the van, EG. small hair dryer, electric fan, chargers and Vast television box.
[c]The inverter was not big enough to run large items requiring a three pin plug.
[d]Whilst looking to order a new van every manufacturer I spoke to said what I was doing was illegal and potentially deadly should there be an electrical fault. I am not electrically qualified in any way, but, I am having trouble understanding why there is a possible problem.
[e]I am now wondering if it is legal or potentially deadly to run a lead from the generator to the power inlet on the caravan to run an air conditioner, toaster, jug or microwave as many of us do. It seems possible this practise could be worse than using an inverter in the manner described above.
[f]Is there someone who can tell me the correct thing to do?
Hi
[a]You created an illegal non approved electrical lead
You carried out licensed electrical work with out a license to do such work
You would have other devices ,[that were not 2 pin]connected , such as fridge & battery charger.AND the van itself!!
The safety recommendation is to NEVER have more than ONE class 1 [have 3pin plug] connected @ anytime to an isolated supply, such as portable generators & inverters
You can,with a high degree of safety ,Directly connect multiple class 2 [factory fitted with 2pin plug]devices
to an inverter or generator
[c]It is not only Big devices that are fitted with 3pin plugs .
The point is with such a set up as yours ,3pin fitted devices could be connected ,increasing the potential for electric
shocks
[d]That advice was/is very correct
Being non electrically qualified is the very reason you should not modify /change any 240V electrical equipment,wiring or set ups.
Mandatory rules & regulations apply to all such work.[for very good reasons, such as fires & electrical shocks not just to you .but also to other people
[e]See all above .It is a potentially very dangerous practice
[f] The correct thing to do is to have the existing van RCD[safety switch ] replaced with a RVD [Residual Voltage Device] That will give safe use of inverters or generators, from electrical shocks to earth,when plugged into the van power inlet socket
I would suggest that all potential buyers of new vans specify that they want one fitted,instead of the normal RCD [
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 6th of February 2018 12:18:59 PM
KAYOS said
10:46 PM Feb 7, 2018
I thank you oldtrack 123 for your good advise, as I do to all others who were kind enough to reply to my questions. I am now much more informed about potential dangers when using inverters and generators and will try to have the new van set up as safe as possible.
In my last caravan I happily ran a power lead from the 1000 watt inverter in the van boot to power inlet plug in the side of the van. Simple to do after changing the female plug from a 10 amp to a 15 amp plug. Providing I only used low wattage double insulated items (two pin plugs not three pin) off grid life very simple as small 240 volt items could be run from any power point in the van, EG. small hair dryer, electric fan, chargers and Vast television box. The inverter was not big enough to run large items requiring a three pin plug.
Whilst looking to order a new van every manufacturer I spoke to said what I was doing was illegal and potentially deadly should there be an electrical fault. I am not electrically qualified in any way, but, I am having trouble understanding why there is a possible problem.
I am now wondering if it is legal or potentially deadly to run a lead from the generator to the power inlet on the caravan to run an air conditioner, toaster, jug or microwave as many of us do. It seems possible this practise could be worse than using an inverter in the manner described above.
Is there someone who can tell me the correct thing to do?
-- Edited by KAYOS on Saturday 3rd of February 2018 07:38:22 PM
2. It is illegal to have a 10A plug on one end of an extension cord and a 15A socket on the other end (or visa versa).
Cheers,
Peter
The risk is when 2 or more earthed appliances are plugged in at the same time. That risk does not exist with double insulated appliances.
This is why inverters that are not hard wired only have one outlet.
I would also recommend an RVD to replace the RCD.
Cheers,
Peter
I thank you, Lizard, Peter and Aus-Kiwi for your replies. I now have some idea of what a RCD and a RVD is and what they do.
I could not see that double insulated appliances could cause a problem, nor could I understand how earthed appliances, EG. hot water, refrigerator and air conditioner, that are plugged into or connected to the vans 240 volt system could cause a potential problem when they are all turned off when the 1000 watt inverter was being used. I only ever had double insulated appliances active when the inverter was in use.
Kiwi - Aus, You put a question mark after "or ordering a new van", we ordered a 20'6" Bushmaster last December, we flew back from Melbourne yesterday after making some changes before the build begins. The Bushmaster will be the fifth van for us and hopefully the last, thus the reason for the post.
Will now be interested to know if a Honda e2 can be legally and safely connected to a caravan 240 volt input or if the Honda generator has magic device inbuilt to get over the earthing problem?
No magic devise :)
What you have is an isolated supply. It is NOT advisable to attempt to earth the generator, but I would strongly recommend an RVD.
If the van input is a 15A plug, then the generator output needs also to be 15A socket otherwise if it is only 10A you will need an Ampfabian converter to stay legal.
Cheers,
Peter
Thanks Peter, Will contact the van manufacturer re RVD device and anything else they install for safe operation of inverters and generators.
The RCD (Residual Current Devise) is your standard safety switch.
An RVD (Residual Voltage Devise) is a relatively new, Australian development that provides an extra level of safety especially for generators, inverters and other isolated electrical supplies.
It is fully approved, but not yet mandatory.
https://www.rvdsafe.com.au/
As an aside, the 240V electrical system in the OKA was fully approved. The 8 power points are only supplied from the inverter. After 10 years I discovered that the mandatory safety switch (RCD) was in fact useless. I had it changed to an RVD.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 4th of February 2018 09:19:44 AM
What is this then?
Aussie Paul.
What is a combined RCD/MCB? Will one of these provide the same protection as an RVD?
-- Edited by Phillipn on Sunday 4th of February 2018 01:30:34 PM
The Residual Voltage Detection Unit RVDŽ-EI electrically connected to the power circuit RCBO is designed for use in floating IT electrical earthing systems. The combination of the RCBO/RVDŽ-EI provides both over current and Earth Leakage fault protection from either L1 or L2 to the RVDŽ-EI Sense Line which must be connected to the power circuit GPO earth terminal or the earth/frame depending on the electrical distribution system implemented. If the RVDŽ-EI unit detects an earth/frame voltage or leakage current from either L1 or L2 to the RVDŽ-EI Sense Line above the specifications detailed below, RVDŽ-EI will automatically trip the electrically connected RCD/RCBO and isolate the supply voltage to the load. The RVDŽ-EI overcomes the problems associated with Earth Neutral Bonding that can suffer from High Impedance where an RCD/RCBO may not work and may also compromise the isolation of the input to output requirement of Inverters and Generators.
Pomme.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 6th of February 2018 12:15:52 PM
NO!!
Normal RCD as used in domestic situations
No USE , not functional [useless] no protection from electrical shocks to "earth ,if inverters or generators are plugged into van power inlet socket
If plugging in a generator or inverter you should have a RVD[https://www.rvdsafe.com.au/] fitted
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 6th of February 2018 12:18:59 PM
I thank you oldtrack 123 for your good advise, as I do to all others who were kind enough to reply to my questions. I am now much more informed about potential dangers when using inverters and generators and will try to have the new van set up as safe as possible.