Im 61yo. I can recall as a child we piled into our Austin a40 farina car on a Sunday, drove at 45mph (75kph) from Deer Park to Pykes weir an hour up the highway. Even them days the big v8 fairlanes, chevvys or jaguars would have to slow down from 60mph to our 45mph if boxed in the slow lane. Horns were regularly heard along with "the bird".
My father got his licence at 35yo. Not only was he a nervous driver our car if it was capable of 60mph probably couldnt maintain it and with questionable braking?
The issue here is he had the right to travel at that safe speed on that 4 lane highway. So did the driver of the Ford ranchwagon towing a 24ft franklin.
Enter the era of the 4wd and lightweight vans, semis, b doubles and most other people that believe that the limit IS the only speed we should drive at.
What is the ideal speed? Well it depends. If we cruise on 75kph in a 100 zone and like my dad had very good reasons to do so then it really is a suck it up princess senario. This includes old vintage tugs towing old vans or farming machinery. If some van owners cruise at 90kph the same situation. If you do and you are a good driver you'll also watch your mirrors and assist others to overtake. But you like me have every right to cruise at 90kph. Cruising at 100kph is fine also as long as you are aware of the risks, the capability of your rig, its sensitivity to side winds etc ...its your right to tow your 6 ton rig at that speed but you are plainly wrong to get angry and object to caravanners driving at lower speeds. Chill out and respect all road users please. The speed limit is a limit not a mandatory speed.
Desert Dweller said
04:08 PM Jan 10, 2018
Yep! It was slow going through the Pentland Hills to Pykes Creek Reservoir & beyond.
The old 2 lane Western Hwy was bumper to bumper on Sundays & public holidays.
Steep & winding, father in law boiled his Morris minor though that stretch. Great Murray Cod & chips back then at Bacchus Marsh.
We travel at a speed that WE feel safe at, it's not super slow but stiff cheddar if it was.
KJB said
04:19 PM Jan 10, 2018
The section of Highway 8 around and over Pykes Reservoir was neither truck nor caravan friendly - narrow,windy,rough and a lot of camber.
The "Cherry Inn" on the hill on the West side of "The Marsh" was a great place for a feed and if really hungry the Myniong Pub for a steak.
The highway bypassing both towns in early 70's did not do these business's much good.
KB
Possum3 said
07:07 PM Jan 10, 2018
You're absolutely right Tony.
Posted speed limits are a maximum permissible in good conditions (Not Minimum). Further there are advisory speeds indicated at all curves, bends and lane width restrictions. We then have to contend with weather and lighting.
Only an Idiot can maintain a posted speed limit over any distance, to do so will necessitate exceeding posted limits and safety.
daffyfrancis said
07:40 PM Jan 10, 2018
When dad upgraded the A Model Ford to a Austin A40 he drove twice as fast as before but still well under todays limit.
David
-- Edited by daffyfrancis on Wednesday 10th of January 2018 07:40:45 PM
Santa said
10:39 AM Jan 11, 2018
If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all.
Slow pokes are not only a hindrance to others they are also a major safety hazard.
Yes. If you are travelling on a Freeway you must travel no slower than 20km/hr below the speed limit unless there is traffic congestion or road conditions dictate."
"driving too slowly or braking without good cause is an offence, coming under the scope of inconsiderate driving. This is defined as driving a vehicle on a road or in a public place without reasonable consideration for other people. In order to prove that you're guilty of this offence, prosecutors must show that another driver was actually inconvenienced by your driving. The reason its classed an offence is that a car thats travelling far below the speed of the vehicles around it can create a hazard for other road-users, as its unusual and unexpected. At the very least, a dawdling car causes concern as other motorists wonder what other unusual driving behaviour might be exhibited by the driver."
-- Edited by Santa on Thursday 11th of January 2018 11:08:12 AM
rockylizard said
11:45 AM Jan 11, 2018
Santa wrote:
If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all.
Slow pokes are not only a hindrance to others they are also a major safety hazard.
Yes. If you are travelling on a Freeway you must travel no slower than 20km/hr below the speed limit unless there is traffic congestion or road conditions dictate." eg - 80Kph on 100Kph limit ... or 90Kph on 110Kph limit.
"driving too slowly or braking without good cause is an offence, coming under the scope of inconsiderate driving. This is defined as driving a vehicle on a road or in a public place without reasonable consideration for other people. In order to prove that you're guilty of this offence, prosecutors must show that another driver was actually inconvenienced by your driving. The reason its classed an offence is that a car that's travelling far below the speed of the vehicles around it can create a hazard for other road-users, as its unusual and unexpected. At the very least, a dawdling car causes concern as other motorists wonder what other unusual driving behaviour might be exhibited by the driver."
Gday...
Yep ... fully understand what you are trying to impart Santa - that is WA road law ... OH and from the mother country which has no jurisdiction here.
I would suggest that it is perfectly sensible, legal and generally accepted that vehicles towing a large trailer (caravan, boat trailer, farm trailer) can travel at 80kph-90kph on any road in Straya.
Of course, we can all get our collective knickers in a twisted knot because we get caught behind a slow moving vehicle - whether it be a caravan, truck, farm machinery, bus or horse and carriage. Understandable, but I reckon we should just get over it ... part of the driving experience for us ALL is to drive to the conditions ... and if one encounters a slow moving vehicle, get over it, wait till safe to pass and relax.
I agree, that when one is travelling at 80kph-90kph on the open road it is sensible, indeed safer, to not let the convoy get too long behind. Either slow down at those overtaking lanes (not speed up) and let the frothing throng hoot on past ... or even pull over at the next opportunity that is safe and let that same frothing throng hurtle to their destination.
How many of us have had some vehicle FINALLY pass us and rush off down the road and then we find we pull up beside them at the first set of lights in the next town.
I suggest we ALL pause and realise that it should be about the journey and not the destination ... for us mob on forums like this, geez, we are off enjoying the wide, brown, inviting land ... soak it all up and not sook it all up.
Cheers - John
Aus-Kiwi said
11:56 AM Jan 11, 2018
So whoâs going to supply me the power or fuel to keep my machine above the 20 kph limit ? I mean Iâm only being as socially responsable as any non working person claiming dole etc . Tounge in cheek as most the time itâs max speed Iâm watching !! The hills !! Why semiâs and trucks complain as even 5 kph effects their pulling power ..
Eaglemax said
02:20 PM Jan 11, 2018
Hi SANTA. With respect I wish to shoot a few things down in flames on the quotes provided. I worked in a law profession all my life and these things come natural to me.
Re: If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all.
Slow pokes are not only a hindrance to others they are also a major safety hazard.
From WA police "
The quote above does not mention anywhere about any vehicle except "a modern vehicle under good conditions". This doesn't IMO include cars towing caravans, trucks, farming machinery. The single modern car in good conditions is a "slow poke" if they cant travel at "NEAR or at the speed limit". Furthermore in Victoria and maybe other states 3 kph over the limit you can be prosecuted. It is fair to assume that with any vehicle there are variables like tyre size, speedo error, cruise control up and down speeds etc...for some drivers to cruise on say 105 in a 110 zone or 95 in a 100 zone...for single MODERN cars not towing.
The following cars don't come under this category. - Non modern cars eg over 25 yo (classified vintage), cars towing any caravan, trucks, bicycles, etc. So that comment in that context from WA police person is right, there are no modern vehicles I know of that cant cruise at say 5kph below the limit in good conditions even a Suzuki Alto 1000 cc car can easily do that.
Re:
Is there a minimum speed limit?
Traffic Road Rules Offences Hazard
Yes. If you are travelling on a Freeway you must travel no slower than 20km/hr below the speed limit unless there is traffic congestion or road conditions dictate."
"driving too slowly or braking without good cause is an offence, coming under the scope of inconsiderate driving. This is defined as driving a vehicle on a road or in a public place without reasonable consideration for other people. In order to prove that you're guilty of this offence, prosecutors must show that another driver was actually inconvenienced by your driving. The reason its classed an offence is that a car thats travelling far below the speed of the vehicles around it can create a hazard for other road-users, as its unusual and unexpected. At the very least, a dawdling car causes concern as other motorists wonder what other unusual driving behaviour might be exhibited by the driver."
"Without good cause".....yet again there are holes in that. No policeperson will book you for towing a caravan at 80kph in a 110 zone if you explain good cause. The most obvious cause is that you are indeed towing a trailer/van weighing near the weight of your tug!. You might have a head wind, be down on power as you chose the petrol version not the diesel etc. It would not put you under the "inconsiderate umbrella"....eg " without reasonable consideration for other people". Also to prosecute another vehicle must be inconvenienced. Would a magistrate consider a 10 minute slow pace an inconvenience? likely no, but 30 minutes on a minor road could be considered inconvenience. Re: "a dawdling car"...yet again its talking about a single car not a towing rig.
John (rockylizard) has the attitude correct and most of us aspire to that responsible considerate goal. My objection is to the road users suggesting that you SHOULD travel at the speed limit and if you don't then YOU HOLD ME UP! or MY TRUCKING SCHEDULE IS RUINED!.
We toured the lap in 2016 as members know in our i30 Hyundai and van 750kg atm. Although a manual diesel the car did not have a 1:1 4th gear. In fact 4th and fifth were both indirect gears. This meant that the cars gearbox might be under a little stress. This along with the engine feeling comfortable towing at 85-90kph we stayed on the speed spectrum. We only had 2-3 irritated drivers all road trains. This was because I couldn't pull over or speed up at that time (hills) but it seems road trail prime movers can do 100kph over Mt Everest such is their power. But overall drivers were thankful for our efforts and mutual waves abounded.
SouthernComfort said
05:48 PM Jan 11, 2018
"If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all"
What a magnificently over-simplistic statement
Ever wondered about other legitimate safety factors that surpass the idea of travelling at or near the posted limit?? For example, many tugs have a factory recommended/required maximum speed when towing over certain weights. And as others have observed, there are also many other vehicles that for one reason or another cannot travel at or near the posted limit. These all have a right to use the road.
Sorry old chum, there is no time soon that I'll be exceeding the requirements pertaining to my rig just to get out of your way and satisfy your impatience.
jules47 said
05:52 PM Jan 11, 2018
We drive "to the conditions at the time" - and as a lot of the roads we travel throughout Oz are sub standard for the posted speed limit - we would often be travelling at 20k UNDER the posted limit.
Have had several trucks call on the UHF - "Get up to speed" - as said above, the posted speed limit is just that a SPEED LIMIT! NOT the recommended speed for the area, but the maximum you should drive at - if you are on some of the roads with say 100kph posted, but the road is narrow, roughly edged, with a drop off - to drive TO THE CONDITIONS you should not be doing 100kph - more likely 85-90 to be safe.
We have no problems with trucks and drivers, and will call them through when it is safe, they are working, we are not in any particular hurry, so we let them go on their way. Most times will get a "blink-blink" thank you.
I don't think any of us appreciate the drivers - cars, caravans, motorhomes, trucks etc., who come up behind and sit on your backside, trying to get you to go faster. Maybe they need to slow down - as we often pass them siting in petrol stations filling up.
Santa said
06:04 PM Jan 11, 2018
Please don't take my lack of comment to the last couple of posts as concurrence, not worth getting into a debate, some attitudes won't be changed.
Fortunately most people use a little common sense tempered with logic.
My last word on the subject.
TheHeaths said
07:59 PM Jan 11, 2018
As always, this sort of thing is an interesting discussion.
Forgetting that this is about towing speed, how many areas of discussion/life are like this.
That is, you are not allowed to impose your right to do something legal on me. Oh, but I can impose my right not to do that legal thing on you!
Deserves some consideration I suggest!
Eaglemax said
08:02 PM Jan 11, 2018
Hey Santa, no issues here. Just correcting things. Disagree agreeably. Cool bananas.
dogbox said
10:00 AM Jan 12, 2018
Santa wrote:
If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all.
Slow pokes are not only a hindrance to others they are also a major safety hazard.
Yes. If you are travelling on a Freeway you must travel no slower than 20km/hr below the speed limit unless there is traffic congestion or road conditions dictate."
"driving too slowly or braking without good cause is an offence, coming under the scope of inconsiderate driving. This is defined as driving a vehicle on a road or in a public place without reasonable consideration for other people. In order to prove that you're guilty of this offence, prosecutors must show that another driver was actually inconvenienced by your driving. The reason its classed an offence is that a car thats travelling far below the speed of the vehicles around it can create a hazard for other road-users, as its unusual and unexpected. At the very least, a dawdling car causes concern as other motorists wonder what other unusual driving behaviour might be exhibited by the driver."
-- Edited by Santa on Thursday 11th of January 2018 11:08:12 AM
if my fading memory is still in tact doesn't the uk motorways have speed limits posted in each lane ie a stretch of 3 lane motorway may have 80 kph lane an 90 kph lane and a 100 kph lane an cameras everywhere to check for compliance . not that it applies here we have the keep left unless overtakeing signs which most people think doesn't apply to them
SouthernComfort said
10:04 AM Jan 12, 2018
Eaglemax wrote:
Hey Santa, no issues here. Just correcting things. Disagree agreeably. Cool bananas.
The old 2 lane Western Hwy was bumper to bumper on Sundays & public holidays.
Steep & winding, father in law boiled his Morris minor though that stretch. Great Murray Cod & chips back then at Bacchus Marsh.
We travel at a speed that WE feel safe at, it's not super slow but stiff cheddar if it was.
The section of Highway 8 around and over Pykes Reservoir was neither truck nor caravan friendly - narrow,windy,rough and a lot of camber.
The "Cherry Inn" on the hill on the West side of "The Marsh" was a great place for a feed and if really hungry the Myniong Pub for a steak.
The highway bypassing both towns in early 70's did not do these business's much good.
KB
Posted speed limits are a maximum permissible in good conditions (Not Minimum). Further there are advisory speeds indicated at all curves, bends and lane width restrictions. We then have to contend with weather and lighting.
Only an Idiot can maintain a posted speed limit over any distance, to do so will necessitate exceeding posted limits and safety.
When dad upgraded the A Model Ford to a Austin A40 he drove twice as fast as before but still well under todays limit.
David
-- Edited by daffyfrancis on Wednesday 10th of January 2018 07:40:45 PM
If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all.
Slow pokes are not only a hindrance to others they are also a major safety hazard.
From WA police "
Is there a minimum speed limit?
Traffic Road Rules Offences Hazard
Yes. If you are travelling on a Freeway you must travel no slower than 20km/hr below the speed limit unless there is traffic congestion or road conditions dictate."
The quote below is from the UK, full article here https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/motoring/cars/using/why-driving-too-slowly-is-dangerous
"driving too slowly or braking without good cause is an offence, coming under the scope of inconsiderate driving. This is defined as driving a vehicle on a road or in a public place without reasonable consideration for other people. In order to prove that you're guilty of this offence, prosecutors must show that another driver was actually inconvenienced by your driving. The reason its classed an offence is that a car thats travelling far below the speed of the vehicles around it can create a hazard for other road-users, as its unusual and unexpected. At the very least, a dawdling car causes concern as other motorists wonder what other unusual driving behaviour might be exhibited by the driver."
-- Edited by Santa on Thursday 11th of January 2018 11:08:12 AM
Gday...
Yep ... fully understand what you are trying to impart Santa - that is WA road law ... OH and from the mother country which has no jurisdiction here.
A further view of 'minimum speed limit' - https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/4557/what-is-the-minimum-speed-limit
I would suggest that it is perfectly sensible, legal and generally accepted that vehicles towing a large trailer (caravan, boat trailer, farm trailer) can travel at 80kph-90kph on any road in Straya.
Of course, we can all get our collective knickers in a twisted knot because we get caught behind a slow moving vehicle - whether it be a caravan, truck, farm machinery, bus or horse and carriage. Understandable, but I reckon we should just get over it ... part of the driving experience for us ALL is to drive to the conditions ... and if one encounters a slow moving vehicle, get over it, wait till safe to pass and relax.
I agree, that when one is travelling at 80kph-90kph on the open road it is sensible, indeed safer, to not let the convoy get too long behind. Either slow down at those overtaking lanes (not speed up) and let the frothing throng hoot on past ... or even pull over at the next opportunity that is safe and let that same frothing throng hurtle to their destination.
How many of us have had some vehicle FINALLY pass us and rush off down the road and then we find we pull up beside them at the first set of lights in the next town.
I suggest we ALL pause and realise that it should be about the journey and not the destination ... for us mob on forums like this, geez, we are off enjoying the wide, brown, inviting land ... soak it all up and not sook it all up.
Cheers - John
Re: If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all.
Slow pokes are not only a hindrance to others they are also a major safety hazard.
From WA police "
The quote above does not mention anywhere about any vehicle except "a modern vehicle under good conditions". This doesn't IMO include cars towing caravans, trucks, farming machinery. The single modern car in good conditions is a "slow poke" if they cant travel at "NEAR or at the speed limit". Furthermore in Victoria and maybe other states 3 kph over the limit you can be prosecuted. It is fair to assume that with any vehicle there are variables like tyre size, speedo error, cruise control up and down speeds etc...for some drivers to cruise on say 105 in a 110 zone or 95 in a 100 zone...for single MODERN cars not towing.
The following cars don't come under this category. - Non modern cars eg over 25 yo (classified vintage), cars towing any caravan, trucks, bicycles, etc. So that comment in that context from WA police person is right, there are no modern vehicles I know of that cant cruise at say 5kph below the limit in good conditions even a Suzuki Alto 1000 cc car can easily do that.
Re:
Is there a minimum speed limit?
Traffic Road Rules Offences Hazard
Yes. If you are travelling on a Freeway you must travel no slower than 20km/hr below the speed limit unless there is traffic congestion or road conditions dictate."
The quote below is from the UK, full article here www.saga.co.uk/magazine/motoring/cars/using/why-driving-too-slowly-is-dangerous
"driving too slowly or braking without good cause is an offence, coming under the scope of inconsiderate driving. This is defined as driving a vehicle on a road or in a public place without reasonable consideration for other people. In order to prove that you're guilty of this offence, prosecutors must show that another driver was actually inconvenienced by your driving. The reason its classed an offence is that a car thats travelling far below the speed of the vehicles around it can create a hazard for other road-users, as its unusual and unexpected. At the very least, a dawdling car causes concern as other motorists wonder what other unusual driving behaviour might be exhibited by the driver."
"Without good cause".....yet again there are holes in that. No policeperson will book you for towing a caravan at 80kph in a 110 zone if you explain good cause. The most obvious cause is that you are indeed towing a trailer/van weighing near the weight of your tug!. You might have a head wind, be down on power as you chose the petrol version not the diesel etc. It would not put you under the "inconsiderate umbrella"....eg " without reasonable consideration for other people". Also to prosecute another vehicle must be inconvenienced. Would a magistrate consider a 10 minute slow pace an inconvenience? likely no, but 30 minutes on a minor road could be considered inconvenience. Re: "a dawdling car"...yet again its talking about a single car not a towing rig.
John (rockylizard) has the attitude correct and most of us aspire to that responsible considerate goal. My objection is to the road users suggesting that you SHOULD travel at the speed limit and if you don't then YOU HOLD ME UP! or MY TRUCKING SCHEDULE IS RUINED!.
We toured the lap in 2016 as members know in our i30 Hyundai and van 750kg atm. Although a manual diesel the car did not have a 1:1 4th gear. In fact 4th and fifth were both indirect gears. This meant that the cars gearbox might be under a little stress. This along with the engine feeling comfortable towing at 85-90kph we stayed on the speed spectrum. We only had 2-3 irritated drivers all road trains. This was because I couldn't pull over or speed up at that time (hills) but it seems road trail prime movers can do 100kph over Mt Everest such is their power. But overall drivers were thankful for our efforts and mutual waves abounded.
"If you don't feel you can drive safely at or near the posted limit in a modern vehicle under good conditions I would suggest it's time to question whether you should be on the road at all"
What a magnificently over-simplistic statement
Ever wondered about other legitimate safety factors that surpass the idea of travelling at or near the posted limit?? For example, many tugs have a factory recommended/required maximum speed when towing over certain weights. And as others have observed, there are also many other vehicles that for one reason or another cannot travel at or near the posted limit. These all have a right to use the road.
Sorry old chum, there is no time soon that I'll be exceeding the requirements pertaining to my rig just to get out of your way and satisfy your impatience.
Have had several trucks call on the UHF - "Get up to speed" - as said above, the posted speed limit is just that a SPEED LIMIT! NOT the recommended speed for the area, but the maximum you should drive at - if you are on some of the roads with say 100kph posted, but the road is narrow, roughly edged, with a drop off - to drive TO THE CONDITIONS you should not be doing 100kph - more likely 85-90 to be safe.
We have no problems with trucks and drivers, and will call them through when it is safe, they are working, we are not in any particular hurry, so we let them go on their way. Most times will get a "blink-blink" thank you.
I don't think any of us appreciate the drivers - cars, caravans, motorhomes, trucks etc., who come up behind and sit on your backside, trying to get you to go faster. Maybe they need to slow down - as we often pass them siting in petrol stations filling up.
Please don't take my lack of comment to the last couple of posts as concurrence, not worth getting into a debate, some attitudes won't be changed.
Fortunately most people use a little common sense tempered with logic.
My last word on the subject.
Forgetting that this is about towing speed, how many areas of discussion/life are like this.
That is, you are not allowed to impose your right to do something legal on me. Oh, but I can impose my right not to do that legal thing on you!
Deserves some consideration I suggest!
if my fading memory is still in tact doesn't the uk motorways have speed limits posted in each lane ie a stretch of 3 lane motorway may have 80 kph lane an 90 kph lane and a 100 kph lane an cameras everywhere to check for compliance . not that it applies here we have the keep left unless overtakeing signs which most people think doesn't apply to them
Amen.