The question is always asked about the cost of lithium batteries. That seems to offend some sellers and they want to give a convoluted answer to the simple question. Here is a site that sends me a news letter on their range. No connection except I have purchased from them in the past and been happy.
https://www.lfp.net.au/shop
Plenty of information on the site too if you click on some of the headings along the top.
cheers Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 09:19:51 AM
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 10:18:37 AM
T1 Terry said
12:54 PM Nov 29, 2017
How do they justify $1540 for a 4 cell 100Ah strapped battery? Roughly $2Ah per cell, 4 cells to build 12v so $8Ah @ 12v or $800 for 100Ah for the bare cells, I wonder what you get for the other $740..... and how come I don't get customers through my door willing to spend that sort of money If there was a full lithium control system included that controlled all charging sources and adapted them to suit the requirements of lithium batteries and included a cell monitor with alarm.... then I guess it's not that far over the top.
What people need to understand is a lithium battery is nothing like an AGM battery except for roughly the physical size and the 12v bit. You can not put 2 x 100Ah 12v lithium batteries together in parallel and not expect problems. I'm happy for people to try it and I can try to make it sort of work ok, but by the time the money was spent buying the 2 x 100Ah batteries, more was spent on chargers etc because they were blamed for the problems, money spent getting it looked at and eventually coming to my door and me at least getting it functional, a custom designed 200Ah system works out a lot cheaper and a lot more reliable..... but hey, I'm happy to sort the mess, more money in fixing something someone else got wrong the first time than there is in building a custom system and providing the warranty
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 12:57:03 PM
mr glassies said
02:24 PM Nov 29, 2017
Gee and to think we only paid $2500 for 2x200 amp cells strapped and delivered
Dibs
Ron-D said
05:41 PM Nov 29, 2017
Makes my 200 dollar AGM seem like a bargain,if your not a huge user of power,don't live permanently off the grid just occasionally, lithium makes no sense to me because the ATMs will last quite a few years in most cases Iam only guessing but let's say 4 K is a lot of money to replace something that's doing the job well at the moment...
mr glassies said
06:24 PM Nov 29, 2017
Were heavy power users works for us and when we get home I am going to connect the house to the batteries . No more power bills .
Win win for us
Dibs
T1 Terry said
08:53 PM Nov 30, 2017
Ron-D wrote:
Makes my 200 dollar AGM seem like a bargain,if your not a huge user of power,don't live permanently off the grid just occasionally, lithium makes no sense to me because the ATMs will last quite a few years in most cases Iam only guessing but let's say 4 K is a lot of money to replace something that's doing the job well at the moment...
So how much Ah useable do you get for $200? I can't see where you get the 4K as a comparison cost for lithium compared to the $200 worth of AGM so I'm interested to see how you came up with the figures. I'm not attacking you here, just trying to dispel a misconception regarding comparative cost including the need to maintain the AGM battery while not in use to prevent an early death where lithium batteries don't require such careful attention .... it all adds up, cost is cost whether it comes in one lump sum or spread over yrs, if all purchases were viewed that way no one would ever buy a house or even buy a car, how many Uber rides could you get for the cost of buying and owning a car?
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Thursday 30th of November 2017 08:53:33 PM
Ron-D said
12:48 AM Dec 1, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
Ron-D wrote:
Makes my 200 dollar AGM seem like a bargain,if your not a huge user of power,don't live permanently off the grid just occasionally, lithium makes no sense to me because the ATMs will last quite a few years in most cases Iam only guessing but let's say 4 K is a lot of money to replace something that's doing the job well at the moment...
So how much Ah useable do you get for $200? I can't see where you get the 4K as a comparison cost for lithium compared to the $200 worth of AGM so I'm interested to see how you came up with the figures. I'm not attacking you here, just trying to dispel a misconception regarding comparative cost including the need to maintain the AGM battery while not in use to prevent an early death where lithium batteries don't require such careful attention .... it all adds up, cost is cost whether it comes in one lump sum or spread over yrs, if all purchases were viewed that way no one would ever buy a house or even buy a car, how many Uber rides could you get for the cost of buying and owning a car?
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Thursday 30th of November 2017 08:53:33 PM
I don't hnow the exact price of lithium batteries but as dibs says in his post the batteries are $2500 dollars I would assume there's more to it than just batteries in the system so I had a guess on the price my mistake eh! Well your in the business Terry how far out would my estimate be I don't know why don't you educate us,no doubt lithium is a fabulous system.but to assume people running agm batteries are just sitting there all night with not much running to conserve power is right off the mark,a good solar system fridge on gas led lights 12 volt Tv gas stove people with agm set ups manage very well ,if you want to run 240 coffee machines and heavy inverters lithium is the only way to go,but to make out people on agm are sitting in the dark is way way off the mark...
T1 Terry said
12:39 PM Dec 1, 2017
Ron-D wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
Ron-D wrote:
Makes my 200 dollar AGM seem like a bargain,if your not a huge user of power,don't live permanently off the grid just occasionally, lithium makes no sense to me because the ATMs will last quite a few years in most cases Iam only guessing but let's say 4 K is a lot of money to replace something that's doing the job well at the moment...
So how much Ah useable do you get for $200? I can't see where you get the 4K as a comparison cost for lithium compared to the $200 worth of AGM so I'm interested to see how you came up with the figures. I'm not attacking you here, just trying to dispel a misconception regarding comparative cost including the need to maintain the AGM battery while not in use to prevent an early death where lithium batteries don't require such careful attention .... it all adds up, cost is cost whether it comes in one lump sum or spread over yrs, if all purchases were viewed that way no one would ever buy a house or even buy a car, how many Uber rides could you get for the cost of buying and owning a car?
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Thursday 30th of November 2017 08:53:33 PM
I don't hnow the exact price of lithium batteries but as dibs says in his post the batteries are $2500 dollars I would assume there's more to it than just batteries in the system so I had a guess on the price my mistake eh! Well your in the business Terry how far out would my estimate be I don't know why don't you educate us,no doubt lithium is a fabulous system.but to assume people running agm batteries are just sitting there all night with not much running to conserve power is right off the mark,a good solar system fridge on gas led lights 12 volt Tv gas stove people with agm set ups manage very well ,if you want to run 240 coffee machines and heavy inverters lithium is the only way to go,but to make out people on agm are sitting in the dark is way way off the mark...
Whether the energy used is stored in the form of LPG or electricity, it is still energy used and needs to be stored and replaced. The cost of storing LPG and the system required to use it is not reflected in cost per refill, but that refill is rarely conveniently located where you are camped up and never free. Add all those costs together over a 10 yr period if full time on the road, or, for the rest of your travelling life and add a credit for the resalable asset when selling the RV and you will find the cost benefit is a long way in favour of one technology over the others.
Your comparison of a $200 AGM battery is just the battery, nothing else that is required to make that battery last for more than a few days use, so the only comparison costing you have put forward is for the battery only.
I'll take a stab at the $200 bought a reasonable quality new 80Ah AGM deep cycle battery. If you want to get the expected 700 cycle life from the battery you need to stop the discharge at 50% and have the equipment to return it to 100% state of charge as soon as possible to actually get that 50% capacity and still maintain 12v over the 700 cycles.
Using that as a base, a 40Ah lithium battery would cost $320, it would not require the equipment to return it to 100% state of charge as quickly as possible to supply the same 700 cycles with 12v still being available under load at the end of those 700 cycles, a tad short of the 4K you estimated. The other benefit is the 40Ah lithium battery is not a door stop at the end of those 700 cycles and will continue to deliver the 40Ah and still maintain the 12v under load for the foreseeable future. No one can actually quote an end of cycle life for an Li battery cause none have died of natural causes yet over the 7 yrs of 24/7 use we have data for from in excess of 200 units out there full time and part time. Not one has come back and said my battery needs replacing, we have had a few kill a cell but that can be replaced without replacing the whole battery so the cost is far less than the AGM replacement when a cell dies. These few problems have not been a result of end of life failure, these cells were murdered or actually accidental death would be a more appropriate term, I'm sure the odd AGM battery has gone to a premature grave as a result of similar mistakes. Funnily enough, the biggest killer of batteries in general is the 3 way fridge being accidently left on 12v, yet another case of over priced out dated technology causing more expense yet doing a less than acceptable job.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Friday 1st of December 2017 12:42:55 PM
Ron-D said
06:28 PM Dec 1, 2017
My final post on this as Iam probably boring everyone with this especially you Terry my apologies,but let's say my new 18 ft caravan with its obsolete 120 amp agm battery Needs to be updated to a new lithium set up in it goes to your workshop the old equipment needs to be pulled out,the complete new lithium set of let's say two good sized lithium batteries that can supply power to run most things that people will require what would that job be worth .if your in the business ,without a big long saga of an answer Iam sure there's a lot here that may be interested in rough ball park figure on what a complete new system would be worth fitted surely this basic question can't be that hard to give a figure on ,but I will bet it is
mr glassies said
07:58 PM Dec 1, 2017
Not knowing how much solar and what the rest of your system consists of Id say yes it would be hard as some of your items can be used . All terrys systems are custom built . Built to last and work properly .
dibs
T1 Terry said
11:05 AM Dec 2, 2017
Ron-D wrote:
My final post on this as Iam probably boring everyone with this especially you Terry my apologies,but let's say my new 18 ft caravan with its obsolete 120 amp agm battery Needs to be updated to a new lithium set up in it goes to your workshop the old equipment needs to be pulled out,the complete new lithium set of let's say two good sized lithium batteries that can supply power to run most things that people will require what would that job be worth .if your in the business ,without a big long saga of an answer Iam sure there's a lot here that may be interested in rough ball park figure on what a complete new system would be worth fitted surely this basic question can't be that hard to give a figure on ,but I will bet it is
Sorry, if the question is vague then the answer will be long or vague, a question with all the relevant information included will get a much shorter answer.... no such thing as one size fits all.
A lot of the equipment you have now will still be useable with a lithium battery, we make a control system that controls the charging units so they will work with the lithium battery and not cause damage to either the equipment or lithium battery. This unit comes in a few levels ranging from a basic cell monitoring and alarm where you are the intelligent part for around $50, to a full battery monitoring and automatic alarms if the state of charge is low followed by a battery isolation if these alarms are not heard or ignored. Naturally, the best system is more expensive than the basic system, but the more expensive system will protect the battery from damage that would shorten its cycle life and costs less than a replacement 100Ah lithium battery. Insurance is always a difficult to justify expense, some are happy to wear the risks and some want it all to happen without any input on their part so if it goes wrong it's someone else who wears the blame and costs associated.
The battery cost, you mention you have a 120Ah AGM battery but then ask about the cost of " 2 good sized lithium batteries" First off, lithium should be built as a single battery because they don't work well as multiple batteries in parallel, so what is a good size battery actually is depends on just what you want it to do and how long you want it to do it in poor solar conditions without looking for secondary recharging method. As general as I can make it, an Ah of lithium equals approx. 2Ah of AGM. An Ah @ 12v for a lithium battery that we build is roughly $8, so do the calculation based on how many Ah of AGM you think you need and multiply it by $4 to get a comparative cost.
How much to install the battery and control system, if it is in a box under the van, thousands cause that's what it would cost to bribe me into doing another one. In the boot or under the bed or seat, if no other wiring needs to upgraded or run in the RV then under $500 would cover it in most cases. If the wiring in your RV needs attention then we give you an idea of the cost of that before we even start the job and the potential risks if you decide to go with the wiring as it is.
In some cases we will just refuse to do the job if the wiring is unsafe, after having one van set on fire by the owner's husband before we even laid a hand or eye on it due to dodgy wiring with no fuses to protect it, we don't want our reputation effected by something we warned about but were ignored or work done by someone else that caused the problem.
T1 Terry
jules47 said
02:14 PM Dec 2, 2017
Terry - that was a good post - even old untechnical me understood it - thanks. Keep up the good work!
Tony Bev said
02:16 PM Dec 2, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
Ron-D wrote:
My final post on this as Iam probably boring everyone with this especially you Terry my apologies,but let's say my new 18 ft caravan with its obsolete 120 amp agm battery Needs to be updated to a new lithium set up in it goes to your workshop the old equipment needs to be pulled out,the complete new lithium set of let's say two good sized lithium batteries that can supply power to run most things that people will require what would that job be worth .if your in the business ,without a big long saga of an answer Iam sure there's a lot here that may be interested in rough ball park figure on what a complete new system would be worth fitted surely this basic question can't be that hard to give a figure on ,but I will bet it is
Sorry, if the question is vague then the answer will be long or vague, a question with all the relevant information included will get a much shorter answer.... no such thing as one size fits all.
A lot of the equipment you have now will still be useable with a lithium battery, we make a control system that controls the charging units so they will work with the lithium battery and not cause damage to either the equipment or lithium battery. This unit comes in a few levels ranging from a basic cell monitoring and alarm where you are the intelligent part for around $50, to a full battery monitoring and automatic alarms if the state of charge is low followed by a battery isolation if these alarms are not heard or ignored. Naturally, the best system is more expensive than the basic system, but the more expensive system will protect the battery from damage that would shorten its cycle life and costs less than a replacement 100Ah lithium battery. Insurance is always a difficult to justify expense, some are happy to wear the risks and some want it all to happen without any input on their part so if it goes wrong it's someone else who wears the blame and costs associated.
The battery cost, you mention you have a 120Ah AGM battery but then ask about the cost of " 2 good sized lithium batteries" First off, lithium should be built as a single battery because they don't work well as multiple batteries in parallel, so what is a good size battery actually is depends on just what you want it to do and how long you want it to do it in poor solar conditions without looking for secondary recharging method. As general as I can make it, an Ah of lithium equals approx. 2Ah of AGM. An Ah @ 12v for a lithium battery that we build is roughly $8, so do the calculation based on how many Ah of AGM you think you need and multiply it by $4 to get a comparative cost.
How much to install the battery and control system, if it is in a box under the van, thousands cause that's what it would cost to bribe me into doing another one. In the boot or under the bed or seat, if no other wiring needs to upgraded or run in the RV then under $500 would cover it in most cases. If the wiring in your RV needs attention then we give you an idea of the cost of that before we even start the job and the potential risks if you decide to go with the wiring as it is.
In some cases we will just refuse to do the job if the wiring is unsafe, after having one van set on fire by the owner's husband before we even laid a hand or eye on it due to dodgy wiring with no fuses to protect it, we don't want our reputation effected by something we warned about but were ignored or work done by someone else that caused the problem.
T1 Terry
Hello Terry
I have tried to follow the lithium (debate?), which seems to have a lot of twists, turns, and sometimes blind alleys
My position is that, I have no electronic experience, but I am one of those people who like to learn about all kinds of stuff
No offence is intended, and therefore, I will not be offended by any answers I do understand that you are a busy person, and therefore do not expect an immediate answer
By crunching your number to suit my present situation of, not really worrying about 240 volt
Is my interpretation correct 240 AH AGM = 120 AH LiFePO4 = (120 x 8) = approximately $960 Fitting of battery management system = approximately $500 providing no prior dodgy wiring
I have one x 300 watt solar panel on the roof, going through a CTEK DC/DC 250 Dual charger
Do you have a ball park price of a LiFePO4 regulator (I assume the CTEK is not suitable)
T1 Terry said
10:40 PM Dec 2, 2017
Hi Tony,
Rather than turning these threads into a sales pages which will seriously upset those on one side of the fence and not something I've ever set out to do, it would be better to send me a PM so I can pass on the email address to contact my wife Margaret as she does the business part. I just do the design and assist others in the install part cause the body got rather badly knocked around in a motor vehicle accident 14 yrs ago and my head doesn't do the pricing side of things without stuffing it up and it causes migraine headaches if I try.... so I don't :lol:
T1 Terry
rockylizard said
10:45 PM Dec 2, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
Hi Tony,
Rather than turning these threads into a sales pages which will seriously upset those on one side of the fence and not something I've ever set out to do, it would be better to send me a PM so I can pass on the email address to contact my wife Margaret as she does the business part. I just do the design and assist others in the install part cause the body got rather badly knocked around in a motor vehicle accident 14 yrs ago and my head doesn't do the pricing side of things without stuffing it up and it causes migraine headaches if I try.... so I don't :lol:
T1 Terry
Gday...
AWWWW .... C'mon Terry most of your responses are "selling" Lithium systems ... ya push the barrow pretty hard ya know
Cheers - John
T1 Terry said
11:07 PM Dec 2, 2017
rockylizard wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
Hi Tony,
Rather than turning these threads into a sales pages which will seriously upset those on one side of the fence and not something I've ever set out to do, it would be better to send me a PM so I can pass on the email address to contact my wife Margaret as she does the business part. I just do the design and assist others in the install part cause the body got rather badly knocked around in a motor vehicle accident 14 yrs ago and my head doesn't do the pricing side of things without stuffing it up and it causes migraine headaches if I try.... so I don't :lol:
T1 Terry
Gday...
AWWWW .... C'mon Terry most of your responses are "selling" Lithium systems ... ya push the barrow pretty hard ya know
Cheers - John
I give up, you win, you are now the new expert on all things and you can answer the questions, but you will have to fight a few others here who think they are the experts. I always get sucked into answering a question on these forums that was really a set up and then I get it thrown back at me. Stuff it, I've had enough
Tony Bev said
01:04 AM Dec 3, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
Hi Tony,
Rather than turning these threads into a sales pages which will seriously upset those on one side of the fence and not something I've ever set out to do, it would be better to send me a PM so I can pass on the email address to contact my wife Margaret as she does the business part. I just do the design and assist others in the install part cause the body got rather badly knocked around in a motor vehicle accident 14 yrs ago and my head doesn't do the pricing side of things without stuffing it up and it causes migraine headaches if I try.... so I don't :lol:
T1 Terry
That's a fair enough answer, Terry
Firstly and foremost, I am sorry to hear of your health problems, and wish you all the best in the future
At the moment I am not in the market to buy lithium batteries
I am also not for or against lithium, but...
I can see an opening for normal folk who do not use 240 volt, (like myself) to go down the lithium path Perhaps it will allow us to park up under the trees (in the shade), for longer time periods Without dragging out our portable solar panels
I do have another question about lithium in general
LiFePO4 12V 240ah 1.44kWH Lithium Ion LiFePo4 Deep Cycle Battery Solar 4WD Caravan BMS The newest technology in batteries! 240AH Lithium enspricht 480AH (As the Germans say 240AH Lithium corresponds to 480AH in AGM technology) Comes with built in BMS(battery management system) controller so you can use with normal BCDC or solar panel regulator without needing special lithium algorithm charging support
My question is Is it possible to charge a LiFePO4 battery, with (as they say) a normal solar panel regulator
My gut feeling is that this is salesman talk
rockylizard said
09:00 AM Dec 3, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
I give up, you win, you are now the new expert on all things and you can answer the questions, but you will have to fight a few others here who think they are the experts. I always get sucked into answering a question on these forums that was really a set up and then I get it thrown back at me. Stuff it, I've had enough
Gday...
Untwist the knickers Terry.
I am sorry, but you don't "simply answer questions" ... you insist on telling everyone they are foolish for continuing to use "outdated 1900s" technology when everyone should have lithium. To be honest, I think you rarely simply answer any question but rather you grasp them as an opportunity to introduce why lithium is the only way.
I very much doubt questions posed to the forum regarding solar/AGM/Lithium are "set up" just to goad you into trotting out your long-winded sales pitch on why we all should be updating to lithium.
I am sure everyone concedes you are very knowledgeable in what you do ... and obviously have the experience to provide 'advice'. However, all too often that 'advice' is more 'informing' the forum of why they are outdated and wasting their time, money and effort in persisting with AGM technology.
It is not my place to offer advice to anyone ... but just as an observation, you should consider the hackneyed saying - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Personally, I don't like vinegar much ... so unless the 'advice' is pertinent to my needs, requirements, and plans it goes right on over my rather uneducated melon.
[EDIT: re-read my post Terry ... it is peppered with ... praps ya should jest lighten up]
Cheers - and have a good day mate - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 3rd of December 2017 10:23:01 AM
Bagmaker said
10:19 AM Dec 3, 2017
to the OP,
Lithium is cheaper if you can use it
LA is cheaper if you do not use it much.
Tony, a normal solar regulator charges to a higher voltage that Lifepo4 chemistry is safe with. So NO.
mr glassies said
10:59 AM Dec 3, 2017
Bagmaker wrote:
to the OP, Lithium is cheaper if you can use it LA is cheaper if you do not use it much.
Tony, a normal solar regulator charges to a higher voltage that Lifepo4 chemistry is safe with. So NO.
In short the real answer
Tony Bev said
01:19 PM Dec 3, 2017
Thanks for the replies, Bagmaker, and Mr Glassies
My gut feeling was that the Lithium batteries can accept a lot of current (amps), so they can charge much quicker than AGM, so why charge lithium with a lower amp solar regulator?
I was unaware about a normal solar regulator sending more volts, than the lithium can handle, so thanks for that
El Gringo said
01:33 PM Dec 3, 2017
rockylizard wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
I give up, you win, you are now the new expert on all things and you can answer the questions, but you will have to fight a few others here who think they are the experts. I always get sucked into answering a question on these forums that was really a set up and then I get it thrown back at me. Stuff it, I've had enough
Gday...
Untwist the knickers Terry.
I am sorry, but you don't "simply answer questions" ... you insist on telling everyone they are foolish for continuing to use "outdated 1900s" technology when everyone should have lithium. To be honest, I think you rarely simply answer any question but rather you grasp them as an opportunity to introduce why lithium is the only way.
I very much doubt questions posed to the forum regarding solar/AGM/Lithium are "set up" just to goad you into trotting out your long-winded sales pitch on why we all should be updating to lithium.
I am sure everyone concedes you are very knowledgeable in what you do ... and obviously have the experience to provide 'advice'. However, all too often that 'advice' is more 'informing' the forum of why they are outdated and wasting their time, money and effort in persisting with AGM technology.
It is not my place to offer advice to anyone ... but just as an observation, you should consider the hackneyed saying - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Personally, I don't like vinegar much ... so unless the 'advice' is pertinent to my needs, requirements, and plans it goes right on over my rather uneducated melon.
[EDIT: re-read my post Terry ... it is peppered with ... praps ya should jest lighten up]
Cheers - and have a good day mate - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 3rd of December 2017 10:23:01 AM
It's you and your few mates that turn these threads into crap.
You just can't stop baiting and attacking can you - and you have to have the last word on it too.
Did this post make you feel better???
I'd like to take a poll and see how many would rather you and your makes nick off so we can listen to someone with real knowledge.
So how many for T1
How many for RL, OT etc.
I'll start T1 for me - nick off you other know it all's.
meetoo said
01:52 PM Dec 3, 2017
El Gringo wrote:
rockylizard wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
I give up, you win, you are now the new expert on all things and you can answer the questions, but you will have to fight a few others here who think they are the experts. I always get sucked into answering a question on these forums that was really a set up and then I get it thrown back at me. Stuff it, I've had enough
Gday...
Untwist the knickers Terry.
I am sorry, but you don't "simply answer questions" ... you insist on telling everyone they are foolish for continuing to use "outdated 1900s" technology when everyone should have lithium. To be honest, I think you rarely simply answer any question but rather you grasp them as an opportunity to introduce why lithium is the only way.
I very much doubt questions posed to the forum regarding solar/AGM/Lithium are "set up" just to goad you into trotting out your long-winded sales pitch on why we all should be updating to lithium.
I am sure everyone concedes you are very knowledgeable in what you do ... and obviously have the experience to provide 'advice'. However, all too often that 'advice' is more 'informing' the forum of why they are outdated and wasting their time, money and effort in persisting with AGM technology.
It is not my place to offer advice to anyone ... but just as an observation, you should consider the hackneyed saying - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Personally, I don't like vinegar much ... so unless the 'advice' is pertinent to my needs, requirements, and plans it goes right on over my rather uneducated melon.
[EDIT: re-read my post Terry ... it is peppered with ... praps ya should jest lighten up]
Cheers - and have a good day mate - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 3rd of December 2017 10:23:01 AM
It's you and your few mates that turn these threads into crap.
You just can't stop baiting and attacking can you - and you have to have the last word on it too.
Did this post make you feel better???
I'd like to take a poll and see how many would rather you and your makes nick off so we can listen to someone with real knowledge.
So how many for T1
How many for RL, OT etc.
I'll start T1 for me - nick off you other know it all's.
Hi El Gringo. I understand completely where you are coming from but I am not going to vote for anyone. Your post is adding to an already inflamed thread, which by the way is about Real prices for Lithium batteries.
Cheers, John.
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:03 PM Dec 3, 2017
Maybe someone can explain the middle line here?
A 20A Dingo controller costs (say) $320. A relay costs (say) $80. Not that much I know, but lets say $400 together. That leaves (say) $600 for Terry's "black box" to charge the Lithiums?
Why can't the same Dingo and relay, without the "black box", charge the AGMs for a total of $400?
Yes your right Peter, it sure can, but I wanted to get the full T1 system with all the fail safes, and as I think most people would probably go that way as well I put it in as my costing.
Could I do the relays etc myself - probably, but I would prefer a 'store bought' system.
And for most people the cost comparison is therefor typical.
Cheers,
rockylizard said
04:23 PM Dec 3, 2017
El Gringo wrote:
I'd like to take a poll and see how many would rather you and your makes nick off so we can listen to someone with real knowledge.
So how many for T1
How many for RL, OT etc. I vote that RL should nick off ... he gives me the sh!ts too
I'll start T1 for me - nick off you other know it all's.
Gday...
There is a big difference between providing opinions and persistent hard-sell, biased presentation ... even if that biased hard-sell comes from a position of extensive knowledge and experience.
I find the "baiting and attacking" comment a little misplaced and exaggerated.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John
Peter_n_Margaret said
04:25 PM Dec 3, 2017
El Gringo wrote:
Yes your right Peter, it sure can, but I wanted to get the full T1 system with all the fail safes, and as I think most people would probably go that way as well I put it in as my costing. Could I do the relays etc myself - probably, but I would prefer a 'store bought' system. And for most people the cost comparison is therefor typical.
Cheers,
The point is that the comparison is not quite balanced. Any solar controller system that can safely charge a Li set up could also safely charge an AGM set up except the AGMs do not need the BMS, so is inherently very much cheaper. My existing solar controller would not need to be changed if/when I change to Li, but I will certainly need a Battery Management System to monitor cells and protect the Li's. So if you needed to spend $1,000 to charge the Li's, the AGMs would cost $400, not "$1,000+".
Next question....trying to remain quite objective here....
(I presume when you say "400A" or "600A" you actually mean '400Ah' or '600Ah'?)
I think your cost comparison between the types is a bit unfair. On one hand you quote the cost of the cheapest Lis on the general market and about the most expensive brand of AGMs.
I also dispute the need to have 600Ah of AGMs as an equivalent to 400Ah of Li. That comparison depends very much on the job that the batteries have to perform. It may be fair if you want to run an air conditioner all night after sunset, but if your general use is compressor fridges, lap tops, lights, electric blankets, and the odd coffee via the electric jug, it certainly is not a fair comparison. At lower discharge rates there is absolutely no significant detriment to voltage or life as a result of running them to the same 80% DOD as you quote for the Li's. And you can take them up to 100% too, something that many Li owners avoid (so their "real" usable storage is really about 70% of 'name plate').
If I was just going to run fridges etc, I wouldn't need that amount of battery, would I.
I do want to run A/C's I have 2 inverter style reverse cycle A/C's and my wife insists that they be usable. Keep in mind this is out home, so she wants it to be as much like a home as possible.
As I stated when I posted that comparison, it was for me to see whether Lithium was worth it.
It is for my needs not wants. I expect the batteries will be cycled quite heavily at times.
If I decided to go LA then those are the batteries I would choose.
The LiFePo4's are readily available at that price and I can easily make it into a pack that suits me.
With the T1 control system that's all I need too.
Perhaps you might put up a comparison of what you think is fair?
Cheers,
El Gringo said
05:32 PM Dec 3, 2017
I missed answering your first question, sorry
I agree, either system could be done cheaper, but how many people are there that would set up a Dingo controller and SSD's to run either pack.
So I did it for me starting from a blank piece of paper and looked at what I would want to build.
So for LA i want a good controller I can just connect and forget.
For LiFePo4 I want the same so even though T1's system does use SSD's etc, it's all done for me, in one unit I can just connect and forget.
I think you are looking at it from your more technically advanced point of view.
From what I can see it would be easy for you to do either solar controller at less expense as a DIY project.
But thats not what I want to do, and I think that it would be more relevant to 90% of people on the forum.
Cheers,
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:10 PM Dec 3, 2017
Thanks.
One last comment and it is in regard to life.
Our first set of AGMs lasted 5 years (travelling 8 months per year, mostly electric but with gas cooking). The second set is 8 years old in January and might last another year, maybe 2.
To change to Li, I would need batteries and a BMS. The controller will be fine but not ideal. Installation would require different mounting and wiring the BMS, not much else.
I still have some questions that remain unanswered in regard to the flexibility that I now have in terms of cranking from the house batteries, charging directly from the alternator and winching from either or both at the same time, all of which I can do easily now.
I would like the weight reduction, but it is not essential so I would not pay a lot of money to get it.
That really leaves the biggest current benefit to be life.
What is the useful life of Li? That is still quite speculative frankly and that needs to be balanced against a relatively proven life for AGMs.
Problem is, if they do last as long as predicted, but cost what they cost now, I can't ever see us living long enough to break even when I can replace the AGMs twice more for the same money and I have better things to do with that money.
If we decide to get rid of the last gas and go induction cooking, that has the potential to change the balance point. For most people that would never be part of the equation.
Hi
The question is always asked about the cost of lithium batteries. That seems to offend some sellers and they want to give a convoluted answer to the simple question.
Here is a site that sends me a news letter on their range. No connection except I have purchased from them in the past and been happy.
https://www.lfp.net.au/shop
Plenty of information on the site too if you click on some of the headings along the top.
cheers
Jaahn
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 09:19:51 AM
-- Edited by Jaahn on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 10:18:37 AM
What people need to understand is a lithium battery is nothing like an AGM battery except for roughly the physical size and the 12v bit. You can not put 2 x 100Ah 12v lithium batteries together in parallel and not expect problems. I'm happy for people to try it and I can try to make it sort of work ok, but by the time the money was spent buying the 2 x 100Ah batteries, more was spent on chargers etc because they were blamed for the problems, money spent getting it looked at and eventually coming to my door and me at least getting it functional, a custom designed 200Ah system works out a lot cheaper and a lot more reliable..... but hey, I'm happy to sort the mess, more money in fixing something someone else got wrong the first time than there is in building a custom system and providing the warranty
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Wednesday 29th of November 2017 12:57:03 PM
Dibs
Makes my 200 dollar AGM seem like a bargain,if your not a huge user of power,don't live permanently off the grid just occasionally, lithium makes no sense to me because the ATMs will last quite a few years in most cases Iam only guessing but let's say 4 K is a lot of money to replace something that's doing the job well at the moment...
Win win for us
Dibs
So how much Ah useable do you get for $200? I can't see where you get the 4K as a comparison cost for lithium compared to the $200 worth of AGM so I'm interested to see how you came up with the figures. I'm not attacking you here, just trying to dispel a misconception regarding comparative cost including the need to maintain the AGM battery while not in use to prevent an early death where lithium batteries don't require such careful attention .... it all adds up, cost is cost whether it comes in one lump sum or spread over yrs, if all purchases were viewed that way no one would ever buy a house or even buy a car, how many Uber rides could you get for the cost of buying and owning a car?
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Thursday 30th of November 2017 08:53:33 PM
I don't hnow the exact price of lithium batteries but as dibs says in his post the batteries are $2500 dollars I would assume there's more to it than just batteries in the system so I had a guess on the price my mistake eh! Well your in the business Terry how far out would my estimate be I don't know why don't you educate us,no doubt lithium is a fabulous system.but to assume people running agm batteries are just sitting there all night with not much running to conserve power is right off the mark,a good solar system fridge on gas led lights 12 volt Tv gas stove people with agm set ups manage very well ,if you want to run 240 coffee machines and heavy inverters lithium is the only way to go,but to make out people on agm are sitting in the dark is way way off the mark...
Whether the energy used is stored in the form of LPG or electricity, it is still energy used and needs to be stored and replaced. The cost of storing LPG and the system required to use it is not reflected in cost per refill, but that refill is rarely conveniently located where you are camped up and never free. Add all those costs together over a 10 yr period if full time on the road, or, for the rest of your travelling life and add a credit for the resalable asset when selling the RV and you will find the cost benefit is a long way in favour of one technology over the others.
Your comparison of a $200 AGM battery is just the battery, nothing else that is required to make that battery last for more than a few days use, so the only comparison costing you have put forward is for the battery only.
I'll take a stab at the $200 bought a reasonable quality new 80Ah AGM deep cycle battery. If you want to get the expected 700 cycle life from the battery you need to stop the discharge at 50% and have the equipment to return it to 100% state of charge as soon as possible to actually get that 50% capacity and still maintain 12v over the 700 cycles.
Using that as a base, a 40Ah lithium battery would cost $320, it would not require the equipment to return it to 100% state of charge as quickly as possible to supply the same 700 cycles with 12v still being available under load at the end of those 700 cycles, a tad short of the 4K you estimated. The other benefit is the 40Ah lithium battery is not a door stop at the end of those 700 cycles and will continue to deliver the 40Ah and still maintain the 12v under load for the foreseeable future. No one can actually quote an end of cycle life for an Li battery cause none have died of natural causes yet over the 7 yrs of 24/7 use we have data for from in excess of 200 units out there full time and part time. Not one has come back and said my battery needs replacing, we have had a few kill a cell but that can be replaced without replacing the whole battery so the cost is far less than the AGM replacement when a cell dies. These few problems have not been a result of end of life failure, these cells were murdered or actually accidental death would be a more appropriate term, I'm sure the odd AGM battery has gone to a premature grave as a result of similar mistakes. Funnily enough, the biggest killer of batteries in general is the 3 way fridge being accidently left on 12v, yet another case of over priced out dated technology causing more expense yet doing a less than acceptable job.
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Friday 1st of December 2017 12:42:55 PM
My final post on this as Iam probably boring everyone with this especially you Terry my apologies,but let's say my new 18 ft caravan with its obsolete 120 amp agm battery
Needs to be updated to a new lithium set up in it goes to your workshop the old equipment needs to be pulled out,the complete new lithium set of let's say two good sized lithium batteries that can supply power to run most things that people will require what would that job be worth .if your in the business ,without a big long saga of an answer Iam sure there's a lot here that may be interested in rough ball park figure on what a complete new system would be worth fitted surely this basic question can't be that hard to give a figure on ,but I will bet it is 
Not knowing how much solar and what the rest of your system consists of Id say yes it would be hard as some of your items can be used . All terrys systems are custom built . Built to last and work properly .
dibs
Sorry, if the question is vague then the answer will be long or vague, a question with all the relevant information included will get a much shorter answer.... no such thing as one size fits all.
A lot of the equipment you have now will still be useable with a lithium battery, we make a control system that controls the charging units so they will work with the lithium battery and not cause damage to either the equipment or lithium battery. This unit comes in a few levels ranging from a basic cell monitoring and alarm where you are the intelligent part for around $50, to a full battery monitoring and automatic alarms if the state of charge is low followed by a battery isolation if these alarms are not heard or ignored. Naturally, the best system is more expensive than the basic system, but the more expensive system will protect the battery from damage that would shorten its cycle life and costs less than a replacement 100Ah lithium battery. Insurance is always a difficult to justify expense, some are happy to wear the risks and some want it all to happen without any input on their part so if it goes wrong it's someone else who wears the blame and costs associated.
The battery cost, you mention you have a 120Ah AGM battery but then ask about the cost of " 2 good sized lithium batteries" First off, lithium should be built as a single battery because they don't work well as multiple batteries in parallel, so what is a good size battery actually is depends on just what you want it to do and how long you want it to do it in poor solar conditions without looking for secondary recharging method. As general as I can make it, an Ah of lithium equals approx. 2Ah of AGM. An Ah @ 12v for a lithium battery that we build is roughly $8, so do the calculation based on how many Ah of AGM you think you need and multiply it by $4 to get a comparative cost.
How much to install the battery and control system, if it is in a box under the van, thousands cause that's what it would cost to bribe me into doing another one. In the boot or under the bed or seat, if no other wiring needs to upgraded or run in the RV then under $500 would cover it in most cases. If the wiring in your RV needs attention then we give you an idea of the cost of that before we even start the job and the potential risks if you decide to go with the wiring as it is.
In some cases we will just refuse to do the job if the wiring is unsafe, after having one van set on fire by the owner's husband before we even laid a hand or eye on it due to dodgy wiring with no fuses to protect it, we don't want our reputation effected by something we warned about but were ignored or work done by someone else that caused the problem.
T1 Terry
Hello Terry
I have tried to follow the lithium (debate?), which seems to have a lot of twists, turns, and sometimes blind alleys
My position is that, I have no electronic experience, but I am one of those people who like to learn about all kinds of stuff
No offence is intended, and therefore, I will not be offended by any answers
I do understand that you are a busy person, and therefore do not expect an immediate answer
By crunching your number to suit my present situation of, not really worrying about 240 volt
Is my interpretation correct
240 AH AGM = 120 AH LiFePO4 = (120 x 8) = approximately $960
Fitting of battery management system = approximately $500 providing no prior dodgy wiring
I have one x 300 watt solar panel on the roof, going through a CTEK DC/DC 250 Dual charger
Do you have a ball park price of a LiFePO4 regulator (I assume the CTEK is not suitable)
Hi Tony,
Rather than turning these threads into a sales pages which will seriously upset those on one side of the fence and not something I've ever set out to do, it would be better to send me a PM so I can pass on the email address to contact my wife Margaret as she does the business part. I just do the design and assist others in the install part cause the body got rather badly knocked around in a motor vehicle accident 14 yrs ago and my head doesn't do the pricing side of things without stuffing it up and it causes migraine headaches if I try.... so I don't :lol:
T1 Terry
Gday...
AWWWW ....
C'mon Terry 
most of your responses are "selling" Lithium systems ... ya push the barrow pretty hard ya know 
Cheers - John
I give up, you win, you are now the new expert on all things and you can answer the questions, but you will have to fight a few others here who think they are the experts. I always get sucked into answering a question on these forums that was really a set up and then I get it thrown back at me. Stuff it, I've had enough
That's a fair enough answer, Terry
Firstly and foremost, I am sorry to hear of your health problems, and wish you all the best in the future
At the moment I am not in the market to buy lithium batteries
I am also not for or against lithium, but...
I can see an opening for normal folk who do not use 240 volt, (like myself) to go down the lithium path
Perhaps it will allow us to park up under the trees (in the shade), for longer time periods
Without dragging out our portable solar panels
I do have another question about lithium in general
On the website below
http://www.accessantennas.com.au/perth-discount/12-volt-solar-battery/12v-batteries/lifepo4-12v-240ah-1-44kwh-lithium-ion-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery-solar-4wd-caravan-bms/
I have snipped the following :-
My question is
Is it possible to charge a LiFePO4 battery, with (as they say) a normal solar panel regulator
My gut feeling is that this is salesman talk
Gday...
I am sorry, but you don't "simply answer questions" ... you insist on telling everyone they are foolish for continuing to use "outdated 1900s" technology when everyone should have lithium. To be honest, I think you rarely simply answer any question but rather you grasp them as an opportunity to introduce why lithium is the only way.
I very much doubt questions posed to the forum regarding solar/AGM/Lithium are "set up" just to goad you into trotting out your long-winded sales pitch on why we all should be updating to lithium.
I am sure everyone concedes you are very knowledgeable in what you do ... and obviously have the experience to provide 'advice'. However, all too often that 'advice' is more 'informing' the forum of why they are outdated and wasting their time, money and effort in persisting with AGM technology.
It is not my place to offer advice to anyone ... but just as an observation, you should consider the hackneyed saying - you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Personally, I don't like vinegar much ... so unless the 'advice' is pertinent to my needs, requirements, and plans it goes right on over my rather uneducated melon.
[EDIT: re-read my post Terry ... it is peppered with
... praps ya should jest lighten up 
]
Cheers - and have a good day mate - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 3rd of December 2017 10:23:01 AM
Lithium is cheaper if you can use it
LA is cheaper if you do not use it much.
Tony, a normal solar regulator charges to a higher voltage that Lifepo4 chemistry is safe with. So NO.
In short the real answer
My gut feeling was that the Lithium batteries can accept a lot of current (amps), so they can charge much quicker than AGM, so why charge lithium with a lower amp solar regulator?
I was unaware about a normal solar regulator sending more volts, than the lithium can handle, so thanks for that
It's you and your few mates that turn these threads into crap.
You just can't stop baiting and attacking can you - and you have to have the last word on it too.
Did this post make you feel better???
I'd like to take a poll and see how many would rather you and your makes nick off so we can listen to someone with real knowledge.
So how many for T1
How many for RL, OT etc.
I'll start T1 for me - nick off you other know it all's.
Hi El Gringo. I understand completely where you are coming from but I am not going to vote for anyone. Your post is adding to an already inflamed thread, which by the way is about Real prices for Lithium batteries.
Cheers, John.
Maybe someone can explain the middle line here?
A 20A Dingo controller costs (say) $320. A relay costs (say) $80. Not that much I know, but lets say $400 together. That leaves (say) $600 for Terry's "black box" to charge the Lithiums?
Why can't the same Dingo and relay, without the "black box", charge the AGMs for a total of $400?
Cheers,
Peter
Could I do the relays etc myself - probably, but I would prefer a 'store bought' system.
And for most people the cost comparison is therefor typical.
Cheers,
Gday...
There is a big difference between providing opinions and persistent hard-sell, biased presentation ... even if that biased hard-sell comes from a position of extensive knowledge and experience.
I find the "baiting and attacking" comment a little misplaced and exaggerated.
Jest sayin'
Cheers - John
The point is that the comparison is not quite balanced. Any solar controller system that can safely charge a Li set up could also safely charge an AGM set up except the AGMs do not need the BMS, so is inherently very much cheaper. My existing solar controller would not need to be changed if/when I change to Li, but I will certainly need a Battery Management System to monitor cells and protect the Li's. So if you needed to spend $1,000 to charge the Li's, the AGMs would cost $400, not "$1,000+".
Next question....trying to remain quite objective here....
(I presume when you say "400A" or "600A" you actually mean '400Ah' or '600Ah'?)
I think your cost comparison between the types is a bit unfair. On one hand you quote the cost of the cheapest Lis on the general market and about the most expensive brand of AGMs.
I also dispute the need to have 600Ah of AGMs as an equivalent to 400Ah of Li. That comparison depends very much on the job that the batteries have to perform. It may be fair if you want to run an air conditioner all night after sunset, but if your general use is compressor fridges, lap tops, lights, electric blankets, and the odd coffee via the electric jug, it certainly is not a fair comparison. At lower discharge rates there is absolutely no significant detriment to voltage or life as a result of running them to the same 80% DOD as you quote for the Li's. And you can take them up to 100% too, something that many Li owners avoid (so their "real" usable storage is really about 70% of 'name plate').
Cheers,
Peter
I do want to run A/C's I have 2 inverter style reverse cycle A/C's and my wife insists that they be usable. Keep in mind this is out home, so she wants it to be as much like a home as possible.
As I stated when I posted that comparison, it was for me to see whether Lithium was worth it.
It is for my needs not wants. I expect the batteries will be cycled quite heavily at times.
If I decided to go LA then those are the batteries I would choose.
The LiFePo4's are readily available at that price and I can easily make it into a pack that suits me.
With the T1 control system that's all I need too.
Perhaps you might put up a comparison of what you think is fair?
Cheers,
I agree, either system could be done cheaper, but how many people are there that would set up a Dingo controller and SSD's to run either pack.
So I did it for me starting from a blank piece of paper and looked at what I would want to build.
So for LA i want a good controller I can just connect and forget.
For LiFePo4 I want the same so even though T1's system does use SSD's etc, it's all done for me, in one unit I can just connect and forget.
I think you are looking at it from your more technically advanced point of view.
From what I can see it would be easy for you to do either solar controller at less expense as a DIY project.
But thats not what I want to do, and I think that it would be more relevant to 90% of people on the forum.
Cheers,
One last comment and it is in regard to life.
Our first set of AGMs lasted 5 years (travelling 8 months per year, mostly electric but with gas cooking). The second set is 8 years old in January and might last another year, maybe 2.
To change to Li, I would need batteries and a BMS. The controller will be fine but not ideal. Installation would require different mounting and wiring the BMS, not much else.
I still have some questions that remain unanswered in regard to the flexibility that I now have in terms of cranking from the house batteries, charging directly from the alternator and winching from either or both at the same time, all of which I can do easily now.
I would like the weight reduction, but it is not essential so I would not pay a lot of money to get it.
That really leaves the biggest current benefit to be life.
What is the useful life of Li? That is still quite speculative frankly and that needs to be balanced against a relatively proven life for AGMs.
Problem is, if they do last as long as predicted, but cost what they cost now, I can't ever see us living long enough to break even when I can replace the AGMs twice more for the same money and I have better things to do with that money.
If we decide to get rid of the last gas and go induction cooking, that has the potential to change the balance point. For most people that would never be part of the equation.
Cheers,
Peter