I watched this info and thought who is going to train caravan owners and then what are they going to teach. I paid $680 to learn to be more at ease pulling our Jayco journey outback 17' poptop. It was the biggest waste of money to learn in the side paddock of a football oval to go around witches hats in and out, back into a spot and hook up and unhook. I asked about handling a sway or wind and was told that you have to get out on the road and try yoursel to how you would react. I also asked what it was like to break suddenly only to be answered the same.
I have towed over the years but only small campers or camper vans. The company was a company advertised in caravan websites. Hence my doubt on licencing.
Stephcott said
08:58 PM Nov 10, 2017
I watched Current Affair tonight and a lot of the examples they showed no licensing system would help those people, just because you get a licence doesnt mean you get brains as well.
rainy1850 said
10:08 PM Nov 10, 2017
I agree. Some examples were stupidity drivers. No amount of instruction would change their attitude.
Ge said
12:21 AM Nov 11, 2017
Not going to happen, who pays for the all the cost to set up the laws, drivers lic and rego will go up. Those in states that get free pensioner rego think again no state gov will let the extra money slip through there hands. Then of course the training schools that will pop up charging mega bucks a big can of worms here.
-- Edited by Ge on Saturday 11th of November 2017 12:22:38 AM
Ron-D said
07:54 AM Nov 11, 2017
Caravans are pulled by usually mature sensible adults going on holidays,they don't need to be overly regulated ,drivers liscences with cars is an entirely different matter they can and often are driven by iced up idiots ...
aussietraveller said
08:08 AM Nov 11, 2017
A special licence for caravan operators may not be an easy option but with the current situation you can go out and buy a 25 foot van and set off on the big lap having never towed a caravan or even a box trailer previously.
towing a van as we know brings a hole additional range of extra skills required to be safe on the roads, I think an option that may help would be a restriction similar to the current car and bike restrictions that apply to engine size and high performance vehicles based on driving experiance.
part of the solution to this issue may be the restriction in the actual size and weight of a van that can be towed by a beginner with progression to larger vans based on hours of experiance in towing a van.
A good opinion from someone who has 'at hand' knowledge.
Snipped from the link -
Cheers - John
SouthernComfort said
09:43 AM Nov 11, 2017
What makes people do the things they do is always as fascinating as it is frustrating. I've worked for many years with employee behaviour psychology in the field of people & leadership development. This was in a corporate environment, but a person's innate human behaviours transfer across all elements of their everyday life. One thing is certain: Skills training simply does not change attitude driven behaviour.
As with all "special" licences, they are the result doing a course that teaches skills. Once the licence is in hand, as we all know it takes experience to attain real competency. Teaching a caravanner how to tow, maneuver, weigh and balance a vehicle will do some good in avoiding some genuine mishaps, and competency will increase with experience. Unfortunately though, teaching skills alone won't solve the real problem. The two things that are extremely difficult to change in humans are common sense and attitude. Those factors are at the root of the problem in a couple of the examples beaten up by ACA last night. Firstly the guy who thought it was OK to drive a van into a Macdonalds car park (common sense), and the one who arrogantly overtook on double lines (attitude). Neither event had anything to do with skills (or lack of), and no amount of skills training and licencing will change their basic behaviours.
There are plenty of arrogant and stupid drivers out there, whether towing or not, who have passed a test and hold licence but (I believe) they are the minority. The same will apply to testing and licencing caravanners - the minority who are likely to come to grief, or cause grief for others will pass a test, get a licence and carry on taking risks.
-- Edited by SouthernComfort on Saturday 11th of November 2017 09:54:48 AM
Ge said
10:02 AM Nov 11, 2017
Thanks Southern Comfort, i totally agree me finks out of the two or three current threads on this subject and on ACA program, you have hit the nail on the head.
Phillipn said
10:26 AM Nov 11, 2017
I know that their are some people towing caravans out their that should not be on the road, not all caravan accidents are caused by the driver of the towing vehicle.
Other car and truck driver are the cause of a lot of accidents. So where do we start training drivers in general?
As others have said " you can do all the training and some people will go back to their bad habbits".
"The road is not my road and not your road, its ours to share with common sence".
rainy1850 said
10:43 AM Nov 11, 2017
I agree with your statement about weights. I totally do not understand how you work it all out. Went to Vic roads and still none the wiser. I need it explained in very simple terms.
some explanations seem too complicated. I perhaps am thick as a brick!
montie said
11:17 AM Nov 11, 2017
The Current Affairs show was just a load of media sensational huff and puff with no supporting facts or figures.
It has always been my view that a licence to tow a caravan is not needed however a tow ed course should be mandatory.
There are now accredited and approved training schools that provide both practical and theoretical training in caravan towing and are not very expensive at around $300.
macka17 said
12:23 PM Nov 11, 2017
And the hrs AFTER taking the course are Sooo important too.
EXPERIENCE.. The more the merrier.
Unfortunately, we have to share the roads with the idiots as well as normal people.
When I first started riding Motorbikes. (Don R in Army) The corporals first "PEP" words to me. Were.
Just remember. YOU made of flesh and bone.
EVERYTHING else around you while you are mobile. IS HARDER...
YOU.. WILL... LOSE...
Ride defensively at ALL times.
Similar with vans.
You do not have manouverability. Nor stopping. nor acceleration.
Of anything else on the road. Hence.
harder to control, harder to keep control.
While also needing more space to manouvre and stop.
Extra time and space to start off. Turn Stop.
And one of the worst things I see van (car) drivers do..
Overtaking. single or dual lanes.
Get right up it's arse. Swing out just missing rear bumper DAsh past. Swing in again.
City drivers mainly.
It took me near 10 yrs to beat that out of Di's brain when towing.
Watch a Properly driven truck sometime.
He'll indicate. Pull out. Well before reaching your tail end.
stabilise any trailer\s.swing THEN pull past. clear. etc..
Learn to pull out and get aligned first.
if there isn't room to do so. There ISN'T room to overtake
and THAT is what causes a LOT of accidents.
Giving yourself time and space. BEFORE the passing move. as well as after.
A truck looks smooth. But that's what he's doing. Specially with multi's on the back.
Control your arse end. B4 pulling past.
It's not nice watching rear drag inside corner pushing overtaken veh onto side dirt.
Or oncoming for that matter.
Wanda said
12:47 PM Nov 11, 2017
Hi all
Just my thoughts
Tell us something we don't already know Channel 9, bad drivers are out there, everywhere. There are car drivers in general, truck drivers, motorbike riders, scooter riders and even "cyclists", why would caravan towers(drivers) be any different, they ALL have there share of BAD drivers.
Maybe we could start debating journalists, do they still exist!!
Must be a slow news day
cheers
Ian
Aussie said
02:37 PM Nov 11, 2017
I didn't catch it exactly but, I thought I heard somebody say caravans are something like 1% of accidents, can somebody firm up that number?
Aus-Kiwi said
02:41 PM Nov 11, 2017
So how do they make it safe on narrow roads in upper WA when some fool is pushing a rubbish bin in the middle of now where ! A cyclists just around a blind corner .. All sorts of things out there trying to damage !! Oh I havenāt mentioned wildlife !! Sheesh !! Letās test the ACA crew ?
Aussie1 said
08:37 PM Nov 11, 2017
Fake news (as Donald says) and in my opinion quite right. Get a life.
macka17 said
12:12 AM Nov 12, 2017
TV Shows. And News items.
Are for one thing only.
To put WHOEVER's? Ideas. Into your mind.
Regardless
SouthernComfort said
08:55 AM Nov 12, 2017
macka17 wrote:
TV Shows. And News items. Are for one thing only.
To put WHOEVER's? Ideas. Into your mind. Regardless
Yes but the trouble is, it works! That's what media does, apply subliminal propaganda until enough people "buy" the cause!
Look at the "let's re-test older drivers" bandwagon - the media keeps pushing it hard. Do it for long enough and many will believe that elderly drivers cause the most problems (despite all the statistics to the contrary).
There's a simple test for this: Whenever a tragic motor incident/accident occurs, you'll note the driver's age is always highlighted if elderly. If an elderly driver isn't involved, age is mentioned much less often.
mike g g said
09:20 AM Nov 12, 2017
Whats wrong with using the current system that is used for heavy vehicle`s that is on the total weight of the unit so if you are towing a 23ft van with a land cruiser and it`s all up weight is 8tonne then you have to have a mr,or,hr,whatever is decided,when I started out I learned to drive and hr,and then progressed to a hc to drive trailer`s worked then and still works today why not do the same for vanners.Thats medium rigid or heavy rigid,
-- Edited by mike g g on Sunday 12th of November 2017 09:21:29 AM
rockylizard said
09:25 AM Nov 12, 2017
mike g g wrote:
Whats wrong with using the current system that is used for heavy vehicle's that is on the total weight of the unit so if you are towing a 23ft van with a land cruiser and it`s all up weight is 8tonne then you have to have a mr,or,hr,whatever is decided,when I started out I learned to drive and hr,and then progressed to a hc to drive trailer`s worked then and still works today why not do the same for vanners. Thats medium rigid or heavy rigid.
Gday...
I do understand what ya driving at (sorry for the pun ) but caravans/5th wheelers are not "rigid".
Cheers - John
Aus-Kiwi said
10:20 AM Nov 12, 2017
Then WHY are P platters in so many accidents ??
mike g g said
11:47 AM Nov 12, 2017
Yes I agree caravans are not 5th wheelers or rigids but when driving heavy vehicles you learn how to use your gears for braking,how to handle a heavy large vehicle,how to take a corner with a large vehicle and all the other skills like reversing parking ,and one of the biggest skills is learning how to handle and brake in all situations,with a heavy large vehicle ,like a 20ft plus caravan on the back.
boab said
03:18 PM Nov 12, 2017
I doubt half the people towing caravans could pass a drivers test for a hc licence any one who cries a test or add on licence is not a good idea probably couldn't pass it
macka17 said
06:59 PM Nov 12, 2017
John (Lizard)
the 5thers go up to semi trailers size.
ALL of them should have a Semi Licence. Regardless.
They ARE a Semi rig at whatever size. (Trays start at 18ft in length.)
Actually. it wouldn't be a bad idea for ALL towing more than say
A 18ft 6in 2.5 ton trailer. to HAVE a Medium Rigid licence.
At least then we know they've had SOME proper instruction.
Most AUSTRALIAN born drivers in this country. In my age group and younger.
took the local cop round the block. Slipped him a 6 pack
and they went down the local.
If it raining He'd watch you drive round the block.
Back up 10 ft and give you it.
I've watched them doing it. When we first came here.
Some mates told me. We didn't believe it.
Till we saw.
And a lot of them are now driving large 4wd's
with 23ft plus vans hanging off their arses.
My Original driving instruction and testing. took. All up 3 months.
Covering from Motor Bikes to Tracked vehicles (Tanks).
and everything in between. Classroom, workshops to see what they consist of
and how they work.
then hands on driving round test grounds outside. B4 you got on the roads.
THEN, we started learning to be mechanics.
Know what they do, and how. Before you learn how to fix them.
Plus you had to know how to drive. So you can test and make sure it working properly.
AFTER you fixed it.
Germany had a 3 month class and driving course for civilians in those days too. Just to get licence. Which YOU paid for.
People in this country have NO idea how slack these things are\were here,
compared to other places, believe me.
Big Mal said
05:31 PM Nov 13, 2017
Somebody with a current MR or HR licence CAN tow a trailer behind their truck, the problem is a lot of them have no idea what to do with it and they are dog trailers not pig trailers like caravans, pig are aptly named, having tested drivers for their driving skills for a company, the heavy vehicle licence doesn't give them much in the way of skills I can tell you, time and experience is needed..................a trailer on a skid pain is terrifying experience and a couple of ambo's would be needed if a decent training programme was ever devised for Van draggers............................I don't it will ever happen.
-- Edited by Big Mal on Monday 13th of November 2017 05:32:16 PM
I watched this info and thought who is going to train caravan owners and then what are they going to teach. I paid $680 to learn to be more at ease pulling our Jayco journey outback 17' poptop. It was the biggest waste of money to learn in the side paddock of a football oval to go around witches hats in and out, back into a spot and hook up and unhook. I asked about handling a sway or wind and was told that you have to get out on the road and try yoursel to how you would react. I also asked what it was like to break suddenly only to be answered the same.
I have towed over the years but only small campers or camper vans. The company was a company advertised in caravan websites. Hence my doubt on licencing.
I agree. Some examples were stupidity drivers. No amount of instruction would change their attitude.
Not going to happen, who pays for the all the cost to set up the laws, drivers lic and rego will go up. Those in states that get free pensioner rego think again no state gov will let the extra money slip through there hands.
Then of course the training schools that will pop up charging mega bucks a big can of worms here.
-- Edited by Ge on Saturday 11th of November 2017 12:22:38 AM
Caravans are pulled by usually mature sensible adults going on holidays,they don't need to be overly regulated ,drivers liscences with cars is an entirely different matter they can and often are driven by iced up idiots ...
towing a van as we know brings a hole additional range of extra skills required to be safe on the roads, I think an option that may help would be a restriction similar to the current car and bike restrictions that apply to engine size and high performance vehicles based on driving experiance.
part of the solution to this issue may be the restriction in the actual size and weight of a van that can be towed by a beginner with progression to larger vans based on hours of experiance in towing a van.
www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-09/should-caravan-owners-undergo-compulsory-towing-education/9031486
Gday...
Thanks for the link, Rob
A good opinion from someone who has 'at hand' knowledge.
Snipped from the link -
Cheers - John
What makes people do the things they do is always as fascinating as it is frustrating. I've worked for many years with employee behaviour psychology in the field of people & leadership development. This was in a corporate environment, but a person's innate human behaviours transfer across all elements of their everyday life. One thing is certain: Skills training simply does not change attitude driven behaviour.
As with all "special" licences, they are the result doing a course that teaches skills. Once the licence is in hand, as we all know it takes experience to attain real competency. Teaching a caravanner how to tow, maneuver, weigh and balance a vehicle will do some good in avoiding some genuine mishaps, and competency will increase with experience. Unfortunately though, teaching skills alone won't solve the real problem. The two things that are extremely difficult to change in humans are common sense and attitude. Those factors are at the root of the problem in a couple of the examples beaten up by ACA last night. Firstly the guy who thought it was OK to drive a van into a Macdonalds car park (common sense), and the one who arrogantly overtook on double lines (attitude). Neither event had anything to do with skills (or lack of), and no amount of skills training and licencing will change their basic behaviours.
There are plenty of arrogant and stupid drivers out there, whether towing or not, who have passed a test and hold licence but (I believe) they are the minority. The same will apply to testing and licencing caravanners - the minority who are likely to come to grief, or cause grief for others will pass a test, get a licence and carry on taking risks.
-- Edited by SouthernComfort on Saturday 11th of November 2017 09:54:48 AM
Thanks Southern Comfort, i totally agree me finks out of the two or three current threads on this subject and on ACA program, you have hit the nail on the head.
I know that their are some people towing caravans out their that should not be on the road, not all caravan accidents are caused by the driver of the towing vehicle.
Other car and truck driver are the cause of a lot of accidents. So where do we start training drivers in general?
As others have said " you can do all the training and some people will go back to their bad habbits".
"The road is not my road and not your road, its ours to share with common sence".
I agree with your statement about weights. I totally do not understand how you work it all out. Went to Vic roads and still none the wiser. I need it explained in very simple terms.
some explanations seem too complicated. I perhaps am thick as a brick!
It has always been my view that a licence to tow a caravan is not needed however a tow ed course should be mandatory.
There are now accredited and approved training schools that provide both practical and theoretical training in caravan towing and are not very expensive at around $300.
EXPERIENCE.. The more the merrier.
Unfortunately, we have to share the roads with the idiots as well as normal people.
When I first started riding Motorbikes. (Don R in Army) The corporals first "PEP" words to me. Were.
Just remember. YOU made of flesh and bone.
EVERYTHING else around you while you are mobile. IS HARDER...
YOU.. WILL... LOSE...
Ride defensively at ALL times.
Similar with vans.
You do not have manouverability. Nor stopping. nor acceleration.
Of anything else on the road. Hence.
harder to control, harder to keep control.
While also needing more space to manouvre and stop.
Extra time and space to start off. Turn Stop.
And one of the worst things I see van (car) drivers do..
Overtaking. single or dual lanes.
Get right up it's arse. Swing out just missing rear bumper DAsh past. Swing in again.
City drivers mainly.
It took me near 10 yrs to beat that out of Di's brain when towing.
Watch a Properly driven truck sometime.
He'll indicate. Pull out. Well before reaching your tail end.
stabilise any trailer\s.swing THEN pull past. clear. etc..
Learn to pull out and get aligned first.
if there isn't room to do so. There ISN'T room to overtake
and THAT is what causes a LOT of accidents.
Giving yourself time and space. BEFORE the passing move. as well as after.
A truck looks smooth. But that's what he's doing. Specially with multi's on the back.
Control your arse end. B4 pulling past.
It's not nice watching rear drag inside corner pushing overtaken veh onto side dirt.
Or oncoming for that matter.
Just my thoughts
Tell us something we don't already know Channel 9, bad drivers are out there, everywhere. There are car drivers in general, truck drivers, motorbike riders, scooter riders and even "cyclists", why would caravan towers(drivers) be any different, they ALL have there share of BAD drivers.
Maybe we could start debating journalists, do they still exist!!
Must be a slow news day
cheers
Ian
Are for one thing only.
To put WHOEVER's? Ideas. Into your mind.
Regardless
Yes but the trouble is, it works! That's what media does, apply subliminal propaganda until enough people "buy" the cause!
Look at the "let's re-test older drivers" bandwagon - the media keeps pushing it hard. Do it for long enough and many will believe that elderly drivers cause the most problems (despite all the statistics to the contrary).
There's a simple test for this: Whenever a tragic motor incident/accident occurs, you'll note the driver's age is always highlighted if elderly. If an elderly driver isn't involved, age is mentioned much less often.
Whats wrong with using the current system that is used for heavy vehicle`s that is on the total weight of the unit so if you are towing a 23ft van with a land cruiser and it`s all up weight is 8tonne then you have to have a mr,or,hr,whatever is decided,when I started out I learned to drive and hr,and then progressed to a hc to drive trailer`s worked then and still works today why not do the same for vanners.Thats medium rigid or heavy rigid,
-- Edited by mike g g on Sunday 12th of November 2017 09:21:29 AM
Gday...
I do understand what ya driving at (sorry for the pun
) but caravans/5th wheelers are not "rigid".
Cheers - John
Yes I agree caravans are not 5th wheelers or rigids but when driving heavy vehicles you learn how to use your gears for braking,how to handle a heavy large vehicle,how to take a corner with a large vehicle and all the other skills like reversing parking ,and one of the biggest skills is learning how to handle and brake in all situations,with a heavy large vehicle ,like a 20ft plus caravan on the back.
the 5thers go up to semi trailers size.
ALL of them should have a Semi Licence. Regardless.
They ARE a Semi rig at whatever size. (Trays start at 18ft in length.)
Actually. it wouldn't be a bad idea for ALL towing more than say
A 18ft 6in 2.5 ton trailer. to HAVE a Medium Rigid licence.
At least then we know they've had SOME proper instruction.
Most AUSTRALIAN born drivers in this country. In my age group and younger.
took the local cop round the block. Slipped him a 6 pack
and they went down the local.
If it raining He'd watch you drive round the block.
Back up 10 ft and give you it.
I've watched them doing it. When we first came here.
Some mates told me. We didn't believe it.
Till we saw.
And a lot of them are now driving large 4wd's
with 23ft plus vans hanging off their arses.
My Original driving instruction and testing. took. All up 3 months.
Covering from Motor Bikes to Tracked vehicles (Tanks).
and everything in between. Classroom, workshops to see what they consist of
and how they work.
then hands on driving round test grounds outside. B4 you got on the roads.
THEN, we started learning to be mechanics.
Know what they do, and how. Before you learn how to fix them.
Plus you had to know how to drive. So you can test and make sure it working properly.
AFTER you fixed it.
Germany had a 3 month class and driving course for civilians in those days too. Just to get licence. Which YOU paid for.
People in this country have NO idea how slack these things are\were here,
compared to other places, believe me.
Somebody with a current MR or HR licence CAN tow a trailer behind their truck, the problem is a lot of them have no idea what to do with it and they are dog trailers not pig trailers like caravans, pig are aptly named, having tested drivers for their driving skills for a company, the heavy vehicle licence doesn't give them much in the way of skills I can tell you, time and experience is needed..................a trailer on a skid pain is terrifying experience and a couple of ambo's would be needed if a decent training programme was ever devised for Van draggers............................I don't it will ever happen.
-- Edited by Big Mal on Monday 13th of November 2017 05:32:16 PM