I think for 90% of the normal vanners.
Lithium Batterys which seem to come in around $800.
Will be the domain of the few for quite a while.
The operative word here. Is "to getaway from it all" as is what the bulk of us do\by
in caravanning.
if you take ALL your household electrical crap with you.
You ain't really doing it, as such. Are you?.
It's NOT really. The principal of what caravanning is all about.
Or hasn't been for the last 50 ish yrs a lot of us have been doing it for. ('63 for me)
I use Lithium Ion cells a lot. Probably have over 50 at present
with another pack of 10, of different sizes on way.
But these are for a different usage.
IE The cells that they use on those electric Bikes I believe.
As he said. Time will tell.
But while alternatives are doing as good a job for most. Hmmmm.
They only good for, really. High AC loading.
But. While you got Boroma, and Jayco vans. (Top and bottom of the heap)
Some will try it to say they got it. Probably...
Look here again, in 5 yrs hey.
wet cells do a good job. AGM do a better job.
Eaglemax said
12:04 AM Nov 4, 2017
Lithium batteries have been popular in model airplanes for 15 years. Lighter than alternatives you have to have a programmanle charger or dedicated charger to charge them a special way or there was risk of fire.
My electric motor pulled too much out of those batteries and caught fire while flying. Was a thrill really, smoke trail then out of control. Crash. Like Gomez in the Adams family with blowing up trains.
They are the future and prices will drop.
TheHeaths said
06:33 AM Nov 4, 2017
Post deleted
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 4th of November 2017 06:34:50 AM
SouthernComfort said
08:20 AM Nov 4, 2017
Thanks, interesting article. Lithium is clearly the way it's going in much wider application than just caravan usage. Everything we're currently used to was once called a "fad"!
Santa said
10:45 AM Nov 4, 2017
Probably not a fad.
There are early adopters and those more conservative that prefer the certainty of tried and true technology.
I'm one of the latter group, just replaced the 7 year old AGM's in our motor home with two new 75 AH Bosch AGM's, if they last another 7 years I'll be happy.
aussie_paul said
11:34 AM Nov 4, 2017
macka17 wrote:
snip>
The operative word here. Is "to getaway from it all" as is what the bulk of us do\by in caravanning.
if you take ALL your household electrical crap with you. You ain't really doing it, as such. Are you?. It's NOT really. The principal of what caravaning is all about. snip>
Just your incorrect bulls*i* opinion again Macka. It is a wonder you don't use a starting handle on your vehicles. lol I really don't think you fit in the section "bulk" of modern caravaners. Just an outspoken minority I reckon, then I could be incorrect as, just like you, I am never wrong.
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 4th of November 2017 12:11:58 PM
T1 Terry said
11:37 AM Nov 4, 2017
It's crap like this that really pisses me off big time
"And because of their high energy density, overheating can cause fire. Overheating could be caused by the battery being undercharged or overcharged. This is why its important to have a protection circuit to prevent the battery from overheating."
Making such a statement without qualifying what chemistry lithium battery they are talking about says they either don't have a clue (like most of the "Tech" writers on the internet) or they have a reason for supporting some push towards a certain product. Let me make it clear LFP and LYP, the type of cells used by intelligent lithium battery sellers, do not and can not catch fire unless they are set on fire. Lead acid batteries explode, LiPo batteries explode in a fire ball, yet everyone seem to be happy with them and see no danger, just look at the number of people with one of these explosive devices pressed against the side of their head or sitting in their lap....... scare monger nonsense put out either through ignorance or a deliberate malicious attack to push a preferred product.
" The most common setup of one or two 100-120Ah lead acid batteries will generally allow you to free camp for 1-2 days at a time with just a minimal input from solar. People who have minimal DC equipment and are frugal with their DC consumption find they can free camp for many days when they have an average-sized solar system installed. If you are one of these people then converting to lithium power would definitely be a waste of money".
Anyone who thinks about what they read rather than accepting it as a state fact would know such a statement is garbage. The average compressor fridge used 80Ah per 24hrs, a 120Ah AGM battery fully charged to 100% (not the 90% or less achieved with a days good solar) can deliver 60Ah before it enters the damage zone, that means 2 days requires 160Ah and the battery at best only has 120Ah available, so nothing else run at all the solar still needs to add in 40Ah or over 480w over the 2 days and you still finish with flat batteries. To this point there has been blatant product placement in the form of photos supposedly representing the subject and barely masked support for staying with AGM batteries..... so much for a genuine unbiased article. About the only bit that had some value was the part about caravan park hoppers not needing to switch to lithium batteries..... but do they really need any batteries at all????
Sorry for the rant, I'll have a coffee and clam down now
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Saturday 4th of November 2017 11:38:19 AM
aussie_paul said
12:18 PM Nov 4, 2017
Hang in there Terry. There always seems to be a bit of the "tall poppy syndrome" when people like you, and myself in the gyroplane industry back in the 90s, are embarking on the education of new knowledge.
Aussie Paul.
revemike said
12:55 PM Nov 4, 2017
I have just upgraded the battery system in my van. I previously had two 110 Ahr AGM batteries. Total usable power would have been around 100ahr. The total weight was somewhere around 60kg. The new system is a 225 ahr battery with built in BMS. This weighs in at 25kg and has a useable power of around 70% to 80% of the 225 ahrs -
Is it worth it? Time will tell. I am heading the Greens Lake for a 6 day break at the end of next week. I will be putting the system through a high usage test so I will see how it performs.
I have also added a 2000watt Inverter and replaced the portable 200watt solar panels regulator with a new MTTP regulator. I also have a 135watt panel mounted on the roof of the van.
My hope is that I will be able to sell my Gennie and shed another 30kg off my payload.
rockylizard said
01:02 PM Nov 4, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
It's crap like this that really pisses me off big time
SNIP~~~
" The most common setup of one or two 100-120Ah lead acid batteries will generally allow you to free camp for 1-2 days at a time with just a minimal input from solar. People who have minimal DC equipment and are frugal with their DC consumption find they can free camp for many days when they have an average-sized solar system installed. If you are one of these people then converting to lithium power would definitely be a waste of money". This is how I camp ... as do heaps of people I encounter. One 120Ahr battery, 360W solar. Don't use TV, laptop to keep charged, LEDs throughout the van, 3-way fridge on gas ... and I can last for weeks with that set-up - even with a few overcast days. However, a couple of consecutive rainy days stretches the system.
Anyone who thinks about what they read rather than accepting it as a state fact would know such a statement is garbage. Not so for those such as myself who camp as stated above - been travelling full-time for over eight years now.
The average compressor fridge used 80Ah per 24hrs, a 120Ah AGM battery fully charged to 100% (not the 90% or less achieved with a days good solar) can deliver 60Ah before it enters the damage zone, that means 2 days requires 160Ah and the battery at best only has 120Ah available, so nothing else run at all the solar still needs to add in 40Ah or over 480w over the 2 days and you still finish with flat batteries. I don't have a compressor fridge - 3-way run on gas when off 240v - works excellently for me.
~~~SNIP Sorry for the rant, I'll have a coffee and clam down now.
That's OK Terry. As long as you do actually realise you are talking from your PERSONAL point of view and not that of many, many actual happy and content travellers/campers stil using AGM technology.
T1 Terr
Gday...
Hope that coffee, a bex and a good lie down helped, Terry
Cheers - John
T1 Terry said
01:39 PM Nov 4, 2017
rockylizard wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
It's crap like this that really pisses me off big time
SNIP~~~
" The most common setup of one or two 100-120Ah lead acid batteries will generally allow you to free camp for 1-2 days at a time with just a minimal input from solar. People who have minimal DC equipment and are frugal with their DC consumption find they can free camp for many days when they have an average-sized solar system installed. If you are one of these people then converting to lithium power would definitely be a waste of money". This is how I camp ... as do heaps of people I encounter. One 120Ahr battery, 360W solar. Don't use TV, laptop to keep charged, LEDs throughout the van, 3-way fridge on gas ... and I can last for weeks with that set-up - even with a few overcast days. However, a couple of consecutive rainy days stretches the system.
Anyone who thinks about what they read rather than accepting it as a state fact would know such a statement is garbage. Not so for those such as myself who camp as stated above - been travelling full-time for over eight years now.
The average compressor fridge used 80Ah per 24hrs, a 120Ah AGM battery fully charged to 100% (not the 90% or less achieved with a days good solar) can deliver 60Ah before it enters the damage zone, that means 2 days requires 160Ah and the battery at best only has 120Ah available, so nothing else run at all the solar still needs to add in 40Ah or over 480w over the 2 days and you still finish with flat batteries. I don't have a compressor fridge - 3-way run on gas when off 240v - works excellently for me.
~~~SNIP Sorry for the rant, I'll have a coffee and clam down now.
That's OK Terry. As long as you do actually realise you are talking from your PERSONAL point of view and not that of many, many actual happy and content travellers/campers stil using AGM technology.
T1 Terr
Gday...
Hope that coffee, a bex and a good lie down helped, Terry
Cheers - John
I did miss a bit of the quote, sorry,
" and only have minimal 12V equipment, such as a compressor fridge, LED lights and a water pump." That is the line before bit about lasting 2 days etc. If you don't need to power a fridge and are happy with minimal battery use you can get away for a few days.
Also, do others consider 360w of solar to a be minimal? The caravan manufacturers reckon you can free camp with a 100Ah AGM battery and 1 x 120w solar panel and say so in the advertising spiel, to get an extra battery and solar costs for more than the real purchase price of the equipment they use and claim it is far more than actually needed.
I wasn't actually speaking from my view point regarding the statement, it was from established and proven consumption. The fact that you caravan this way does not make you in the majority, nor do those that travel in the lap of luxury in an A Class motorhome with all the bells and whistles.
A bit of open minded reading will show that your form of traveller is rapidly diminishing into the minority as those coming into the market these days aren't interested in spending a fortune to rough it and without a lot of the "mod cons" the cook has at home the chances of long trips away from a caravan park with the cooks backing diminish with each trip.
Never a truer word spoken than the catch phrase "A happy wife is a happy life" when it comes to trips away from it all.
T1 Terry...... it must have been the Bex powder I needed :lol:
T1 Terry said
01:47 PM Nov 4, 2017
aussie_paul wrote:
macka17 wrote:
snip>
The operative word here. Is "to getaway from it all" as is what the bulk of us do\by in caravanning.
if you take ALL your household electrical crap with you. You ain't really doing it, as such. Are you?. It's NOT really. The principal of what caravaning is all about. snip>
Just your incorrect bulls*i* opinion again Macka. It is a wonder you don't use a starting handle on your vehicles. lol I really don't think you fit in the section "bulk" of modern caravaners. Just an outspoken minority I reckon, then I could be incorrect as, just like you, I am never wrong.
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 4th of November 2017 12:11:58 PM
One has to ask why he isn't using the hurricane lamps and Coolgardie fridge while cooking on the open fire out of necessity rather than a fun pass time while relaxing. I bet he doesn't have to walk for miles to find a phone box either, and why is he using these new age form of communication, surely it should be the humble letter into the post box? If it was good enough for those who wanted to get away from it all then why isn't it good enough for Macka? Perhaps a tad selective in what is a necessity and what is a luxury Macka???
T1 Terry
Hylife said
01:52 PM Nov 4, 2017
Been using Lithium variants for years for all sorts of applications including emergency power supplies, caravanning and as automotive crank batteries.
Currently use Lithium Iron Phosphate LiFeP04, the safest of them all (so far).
There are plenty of places that you can buy the smaller capacity LiFeP04 at the same pricing as Lead-Acid if you spend the time to shop around on the Internet.
The main benefits of LiFeP04 are:
1/ Can accept high charging rates (3C).
2/ Can provide very high discharge rates (12C).
3/ Can discharge down to approx. 15% at 1C or 5% at 0.2C state of charge before voltage starts to drop.
4/ Can discharge down to approx. 3% at 0.1C before deep cycle damage begins (40-50% for lead acid). All LiFeP04 are deep cycle!
5/ Lifespan has up to 4 times the number of deep cycles Vs conventional Lead Acid.
6/ Are light weight, approx. one quarter of a conventional lead-acid.
7/ Are approx. 25% the size of a conventional lead-acid of the same Ah rating.
8/ Self discharge less than 2% per month (lead-acid average 0.5-1% per day).
9/ LiFeP04 batteries made specifically for automotive use have their own smart charging circuity built in and can be used as a direct replacement for a conventional lead-acid.
C= Charge/Discharge to capacity ratio.
a 1C rate for a 100Ah battery would be 100amps
a 0.2C rate for a 100Ah battery would be 20amps
Disadvantages:
1/ Cost of Cells.
2/ The requirement for smart charging/discharging circuitry as LiFeP04 cells have very specific max and min requirements.
LiFeP04 cells can be used and charged as a battery, but individual cell voltages (not battery voltages) determine the shutoff for charging or discharging and all charging or discharging must completely disconnect when any LiFeP04 cell in the battery reaches its max or min. Batteries should be made of identical cells. If any cells in a battery are to be replaced, all cells in the battery must be individually bottom balanced down to 2.75 volts over 2 to 3 individual cell cycles.
LiFeP04 cells have a nominal voltage of 3.2 volts, (4 cells make a 12.8 volt battery).
LiFeP04 cells are charged at a constant current up to 3.5 volts and then charging changes to a constant voltage up to 3.65 volts. Once 3.65 volts is reached the charging must completely stop. Because LiFeP04 cells do not self discharge, they must not be trickle or float charged.
In normal use, discharging should completely stop at 2.8 volts (5% SOC at 0.2C). Shortened lifespan may result if cells are discharged below 2 volts.
macka17 said
07:04 PM Nov 4, 2017
Some people are so Malignant.
I've been using Solar and Battery\Genny systems. Marine and vamn and home.
Sonce erly '70's.
Not ALl of us want to carry all the crap of home with them either.
It's an open world out there. Some are controlled by the female.
Some just take enuff to be comfortable.
Phone.\Communications. Me.
I oftem leave ph at home when we go away. and it's nearly always in the car Flat.
I'M not one of those lemmings that would die if they can't "communicate" with others.
As are a lot of others I know too.
It's probably 60\40. All the crap v Comfortable.
Don't really matter. do it.
AGM's will be keeping a lot of people happy for a lot of yrs yet. Not ALl\L want the latest and greatest.
Some are sooo Petty Hey. With their comments. It just shows others.
Look at meeee. I'VE got all the latest and greatest.
Whoopy Farkin' doo. Who cares.
Bryan said
11:19 AM Nov 5, 2017
macka17 wrote:
Some people are so Malignant.
I've been using Solar and Battery\Genny systems. Marine and vamn and home. Sonce erly '70's.
Not ALl of us want to carry all the crap of home with them either. It's an open world out there. Some are controlled by the female. Some just take enuff to be comfortable.
Phone.\Communications. Me. I oftem leave ph at home when we go away. and it's nearly always in the car Flat.
I'M not one of those lemmings that would die if they can't "communicate" with others. As are a lot of others I know too. It's probably 60\40. All the crap v Comfortable. Don't really matter. do it. AGM's will be keeping a lot of people happy for a lot of yrs yet. Not ALl\L want the latest and greatest.
Some are sooo Petty Hey. With their comments. It just shows others.
Look at meeee. I'VE got all the latest and greatest.
Whoopy Farkin' doo. Who cares.
Is that F word allowed on this forum. A previous comment, again by Macka, in another thread that Pat Cullinan was a "wank" obviously was so maybe the F word is Ok.
macka17 said
05:21 PM Nov 5, 2017
You read Callilan?.
he's not paid by anybody much. Is he then.
You'd have to be an electronics Tech to keep up with those things.
Wet or AGM. Just plug it in. Floats bwhen full.
Mostly people set up the system and just run it as normal. Solar looks after it .It floats.
you get what you want. virtually no maint. and a fraction of cost of these Lithium cells.
Sun disappear for coupla days. Helloooo Genny.
Not a problem.
People talk a lot about this new system. But I'm yet to see the costing for a system incl the charging equipt, they need.
Compared to an AGm or wet cell. 2 x 100a Battery system.
with say 350\400w of panels on top.
Actual figures would be interesting on the table.
Very few would do the 2 or three day thing then charge. with panels the cost they are.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 5th of November 2017 05:31:28 PM
T1 Terry said
12:04 PM Nov 7, 2017
macka17 wrote:
You read Callilan?.
he's not paid by anybody much. Is he then.
You'd have to be an electronics Tech to keep up with those things.
Wet or AGM. Just plug it in. Floats bwhen full.
Mostly people set up the system and just run it as normal. Solar looks after it .It floats.
you get what you want. virtually no maint. and a fraction of cost of these Lithium cells.
Sun disappear for coupla days. Helloooo Genny.
Not a problem.
People talk a lot about this new system. But I'm yet to see the costing for a system incl the charging equipt, they need.
Compared to an AGm or wet cell. 2 x 100a Battery system.
with say 350\400w of panels on top.
Actual figures would be interesting on the table.
Very few would do the 2 or three day thing then charge. with panels the cost they are.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 5th of November 2017 05:31:28 PM
Come on Macka, you are starting sound like a luddite, yet you can handle the new technology of a mobile phone and computer...... I think it's just a case of fear of the unknown so attack rather than accept and learn something new.
If you can get 3 days out of 200Ah of AGM batteries then you could get the same out of 100Ah of a lithium battery. The cost factor? How many $$ in AGM batteries would it cost to be able to still do the 3 days after 10 yrs?
How expensive was it to change from the hurricane lamp to solar/battery and all the gear required to make it work.... including the lights themselves? You could have bought a lot of kero for that outlay couldn't you..... can you see the link between what you are saying now to the path you have already taken?
T1 Terry
Santa said
12:30 PM Nov 7, 2017
T1 Terry wrote:
macka17 wrote:
You read Callilan?.
he's not paid by anybody much. Is he then.
You'd have to be an electronics Tech to keep up with those things.
Wet or AGM. Just plug it in. Floats bwhen full.
Mostly people set up the system and just run it as normal. Solar looks after it .It floats.
you get what you want. virtually no maint. and a fraction of cost of these Lithium cells.
Sun disappear for coupla days. Helloooo Genny.
Not a problem.
People talk a lot about this new system. But I'm yet to see the costing for a system incl the charging equipt, they need.
Compared to an AGm or wet cell. 2 x 100a Battery system.
with say 350\400w of panels on top.
Actual figures would be interesting on the table.
Very few would do the 2 or three day thing then charge. with panels the cost they are.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 5th of November 2017 05:31:28 PM
"Come on Macka, you are starting sound like a luddite"
Hmmm, bit unfair, people are entitled to use whatever they choose without fear of criticism or ridicule.
I certainly wouldn't go down the lithium pathway at this stage, it's expensive and still under development, at this stage I'll stay with AGM.
As a matter of interest Terry do you have a vested interest in the technology?
rockylizard said
12:55 PM Nov 7, 2017
Santa wrote:
As a matter of interest Terry do you have a vested interest in the technology?
Gday...
Terry has been deeply involved in the technology for many years ... http://t1lithium.net/
He has been a staunch advocate and developer of lithium systems for RVers.
If you do some google research you will find quite a few testimonials from happy users of Terry's systems - eg ...
"Our very good fortune was in having one of Australia's foremost experts and installers of lithium now living close to where we live. Terry Covill is over at Mannum (SA) and goes by the business name of T1 Lithium."
Cheers - John
Santa said
01:11 PM Nov 7, 2017
I suspected as much.
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:12:33 PM
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:14:15 PM
Delta18 said
07:47 PM Nov 7, 2017
Santa wrote:
I suspected as much.
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:12:33 PM
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:14:15 PM
No need to suspect, he has made no secret of the fact.
Santa said
08:00 PM Nov 7, 2017
Delta18 wrote:
Santa wrote:
I suspected as much.
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:12:33 PM
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:14:15 PM
No need to suspect, he has made no secret of the fact.
Perhaps I just don't get out and about enough, have never seen the business advertised.
Hylife said
10:47 PM Nov 8, 2017
Santa wrote:
..... I certainly wouldn't go down the lithium pathway at this stage, it's expensive and still under development, at this stage I'll stay with AGM......
Hardly still under development in the manner that your post suggests.
Lithium cells and batteries have been around for 35 years, yeah, 1980!
Next you'll be telling me that these dang-fangled, voo-doo, black magic, things called computers, (which have only been around since the second world war), are still expensive and under development.
Well, Doh!! Of course they are. All popular technology is under constant development, and yes, the absolute very latest is always expensive so that the early adopters can pay back the R&D costs, but come on, lithium isn't expensive when you compare what it can do Vs old lead-acid and we've been using Lithium in everything cordless for more than 20 years. Really, when was the last time anyone went and bought a Nickel Cadmium or Nickel Metal Hydride cell/battery. Remember when a 1.2V AA NiCad once cost $10 each, then they dropped to less than $2 with what we thought was a whopping great capacity of 2,000mAh. Well now a 18650 (modern equiv to AA size) 3.7Volt 3,400mAh lithium can be bought for less than $2, simply because they make and sell lots of them.
The lead acid battery was invented way back in 1859 !! If everyone started buying lithium, the prices would drop a whole lot quicker.
-- Edited by Hylife on Thursday 9th of November 2017 07:59:40 PM
-- Edited by Hylife on Thursday 9th of November 2017 08:00:33 PM
Hewy54 said
07:30 AM Nov 9, 2017
With all the editing and deleting that people do, I lose track of who said what.
It almost looks like T1 Terry made the statement above but I do not think he actually made that statement at all!!!
Santa said
08:55 AM Nov 9, 2017
Hewy54 wrote:
With all the editing and deleting that people do, I lose track of who said what. It almost looks like T1 Terry made the statement above but I do not think he actually made that statement at all!!!
Your right, I made the statement attributed to Terry.
Need to keep your wits about you, the process (editing) can be confusing.
mr glassies said
11:39 PM Nov 17, 2017
I have a t1 Terry setup loving the the freedom of not having to use my genny . And that's running jug toaster washing machine air con . And all the usual 12 volt stuff on board . We're heavy users of power using 30 % of 400 amps a night . Love it .
Gday...
Provided for information and without comment...
http://www.withoutahitch.com.au/caravan/lithium-runaway-technological-breakthrough-mere-passing-fad/
Cheers - John
Lithium Batterys which seem to come in around $800.
Will be the domain of the few for quite a while.
The operative word here. Is "to getaway from it all" as is what the bulk of us do\by
in caravanning.
if you take ALL your household electrical crap with you.
You ain't really doing it, as such. Are you?.
It's NOT really. The principal of what caravanning is all about.
Or hasn't been for the last 50 ish yrs a lot of us have been doing it for. ('63 for me)
I use Lithium Ion cells a lot. Probably have over 50 at present
with another pack of 10, of different sizes on way.
But these are for a different usage.
IE The cells that they use on those electric Bikes I believe.
As he said. Time will tell.
But while alternatives are doing as good a job for most. Hmmmm.
They only good for, really. High AC loading.
But. While you got Boroma, and Jayco vans. (Top and bottom of the heap)
Some will try it to say they got it. Probably...
Look here again, in 5 yrs hey.
wet cells do a good job. AGM do a better job.
Post deleted
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 4th of November 2017 06:34:50 AM
Probably not a fad.
There are early adopters and those more conservative that prefer the certainty of tried and true technology.
I'm one of the latter group, just replaced the 7 year old AGM's in our motor home with two new 75 AH Bosch AGM's, if they last another 7 years I'll be happy.
Just your incorrect bulls*i* opinion again Macka. It is a wonder you don't use a starting handle on your vehicles. lol
I really don't think you fit in the section "bulk" of modern caravaners. Just an outspoken minority I reckon, then I could be incorrect as, just like you, I am never wrong.
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 4th of November 2017 12:11:58 PM
It's crap like this that really pisses me off big time
"And because of their high energy density, overheating can cause fire. Overheating could be caused by the battery being undercharged or overcharged. This is why its important to have a protection circuit to prevent the battery from overheating."
Making such a statement without qualifying what chemistry lithium battery they are talking about says they either don't have a clue (like most of the "Tech" writers on the internet) or they have a reason for supporting some push towards a certain product. Let me make it clear LFP and LYP, the type of cells used by intelligent lithium battery sellers, do not and can not catch fire unless they are set on fire. Lead acid batteries explode, LiPo batteries explode in a fire ball, yet everyone seem to be happy with them and see no danger, just look at the number of people with one of these explosive devices pressed against the side of their head or sitting in their lap....... scare monger nonsense put out either through ignorance or a deliberate malicious attack to push a preferred product.
" The most common setup of one or two 100-120Ah lead acid batteries will generally allow you to free camp for 1-2 days at a time with just a minimal input from solar. People who have minimal DC equipment and are frugal with their DC consumption find they can free camp for many days when they have an average-sized solar system installed. If you are one of these people then converting to lithium power would definitely be a waste of money".
Anyone who thinks about what they read rather than accepting it as a state fact would know such a statement is garbage. The average compressor fridge used 80Ah per 24hrs, a 120Ah AGM battery fully charged to 100% (not the 90% or less achieved with a days good solar) can deliver 60Ah before it enters the damage zone, that means 2 days requires 160Ah and the battery at best only has 120Ah available, so nothing else run at all the solar still needs to add in 40Ah or over 480w over the 2 days and you still finish with flat batteries.
To this point there has been blatant product placement in the form of photos supposedly representing the subject and barely masked support for staying with AGM batteries..... so much for a genuine unbiased article.
About the only bit that had some value was the part about caravan park hoppers not needing to switch to lithium batteries..... but do they really need any batteries at all????
Sorry for the rant, I'll have a coffee and clam down now
T1 Terry
-- Edited by T1 Terry on Saturday 4th of November 2017 11:38:19 AM
Hang in there Terry. There always seems to be a bit of the "tall poppy syndrome" when people like you, and myself in the gyroplane industry back in the 90s, are embarking on the education of new knowledge.
Aussie Paul.
I have just upgraded the battery system in my van. I previously had two 110 Ahr AGM batteries. Total usable power would have been around 100ahr. The total weight was somewhere around 60kg. The new system is a 225 ahr battery with built in BMS. This weighs in at 25kg and has a useable power of around 70% to 80% of the 225 ahrs -
Is it worth it? Time will tell. I am heading the Greens Lake for a 6 day break at the end of next week. I will be putting the system through a high usage test so I will see how it performs.
I have also added a 2000watt Inverter and replaced the portable 200watt solar panels regulator with a new MTTP regulator. I also have a 135watt panel mounted on the roof of the van.
My hope is that I will be able to sell my Gennie and shed another 30kg off my payload.
Gday...
Hope that coffee, a bex and a good lie down helped, Terry
Cheers - John
I did miss a bit of the quote, sorry,
" and only have minimal 12V equipment, such as a compressor fridge, LED lights and a water pump." That is the line before bit about lasting 2 days etc. If you don't need to power a fridge and are happy with minimal battery use you can get away for a few days.
Also, do others consider 360w of solar to a be minimal? The caravan manufacturers reckon you can free camp with a 100Ah AGM battery and 1 x 120w solar panel and say so in the advertising spiel, to get an extra battery and solar costs for more than the real purchase price of the equipment they use and claim it is far more than actually needed.
I wasn't actually speaking from my view point regarding the statement, it was from established and proven consumption. The fact that you caravan this way does not make you in the majority, nor do those that travel in the lap of luxury in an A Class motorhome with all the bells and whistles.
A bit of open minded reading will show that your form of traveller is rapidly diminishing into the minority as those coming into the market these days aren't interested in spending a fortune to rough it and without a lot of the "mod cons" the cook has at home the chances of long trips away from a caravan park with the cooks backing diminish with each trip.
Never a truer word spoken than the catch phrase "A happy wife is a happy life" when it comes to trips away from it all.
T1 Terry...... it must have been the Bex powder I needed :lol:
One has to ask why he isn't using the hurricane lamps and Coolgardie fridge while cooking on the open fire out of necessity rather than a fun pass time while relaxing. I bet he doesn't have to walk for miles to find a phone box either, and why is he using these new age form of communication, surely it should be the humble letter into the post box? If it was good enough for those who wanted to get away from it all then why isn't it good enough for Macka? Perhaps a tad selective in what is a necessity and what is a luxury Macka???
T1 Terry
Currently use Lithium Iron Phosphate LiFeP04, the safest of them all (so far).
There are plenty of places that you can buy the smaller capacity LiFeP04 at the same pricing as Lead-Acid if you spend the time to shop around on the Internet.
The main benefits of LiFeP04 are:
1/ Can accept high charging rates (3C).
2/ Can provide very high discharge rates (12C).
3/ Can discharge down to approx. 15% at 1C or 5% at 0.2C state of charge before voltage starts to drop.
4/ Can discharge down to approx. 3% at 0.1C before deep cycle damage begins (40-50% for lead acid). All LiFeP04 are deep cycle!
5/ Lifespan has up to 4 times the number of deep cycles Vs conventional Lead Acid.
6/ Are light weight, approx. one quarter of a conventional lead-acid.
7/ Are approx. 25% the size of a conventional lead-acid of the same Ah rating.
8/ Self discharge less than 2% per month (lead-acid average 0.5-1% per day).
9/ LiFeP04 batteries made specifically for automotive use have their own smart charging circuity built in and can be used as a direct replacement for a conventional lead-acid.
C= Charge/Discharge to capacity ratio.
a 1C rate for a 100Ah battery would be 100amps
a 0.2C rate for a 100Ah battery would be 20amps
Disadvantages:
1/ Cost of Cells.
2/ The requirement for smart charging/discharging circuitry as LiFeP04 cells have very specific max and min requirements.
LiFeP04 cells can be used and charged as a battery, but individual cell voltages (not battery voltages) determine the shutoff for charging or discharging and all charging or discharging must completely disconnect when any LiFeP04 cell in the battery reaches its max or min. Batteries should be made of identical cells. If any cells in a battery are to be replaced, all cells in the battery must be individually bottom balanced down to 2.75 volts over 2 to 3 individual cell cycles.
LiFeP04 cells have a nominal voltage of 3.2 volts, (4 cells make a 12.8 volt battery).
LiFeP04 cells are charged at a constant current up to 3.5 volts and then charging changes to a constant voltage up to 3.65 volts. Once 3.65 volts is reached the charging must completely stop. Because LiFeP04 cells do not self discharge, they must not be trickle or float charged.
In normal use, discharging should completely stop at 2.8 volts (5% SOC at 0.2C). Shortened lifespan may result if cells are discharged below 2 volts.
I've been using Solar and Battery\Genny systems. Marine and vamn and home.
Sonce erly '70's.
Not ALl of us want to carry all the crap of home with them either.
It's an open world out there. Some are controlled by the female.
Some just take enuff to be comfortable.
Phone.\Communications. Me.
I oftem leave ph at home when we go away. and it's nearly always in the car Flat.
I'M not one of those lemmings that would die if they can't "communicate" with others.
As are a lot of others I know too.
It's probably 60\40. All the crap v Comfortable.
Don't really matter. do it.
AGM's will be keeping a lot of people happy for a lot of yrs yet. Not ALl\L want the latest and greatest.
Some are sooo Petty Hey. With their comments. It just shows others.
Look at meeee. I'VE got all the latest and greatest.
Whoopy Farkin' doo. Who cares.
Is that F word allowed on this forum. A previous comment, again by Macka, in another thread that Pat Cullinan was a "wank" obviously was so maybe the F word is Ok.
You read Callilan?.
he's not paid by anybody much. Is he then.
You'd have to be an electronics Tech to keep up with those things.
Wet or AGM. Just plug it in. Floats bwhen full.
Mostly people set up the system and just run it as normal. Solar looks after it .It floats.
you get what you want. virtually no maint. and a fraction of cost of these Lithium cells.
Sun disappear for coupla days. Helloooo Genny.
Not a problem.
People talk a lot about this new system. But I'm yet to see the costing for a system incl the charging equipt, they need.
Compared to an AGm or wet cell. 2 x 100a Battery system.
with say 350\400w of panels on top.
Actual figures would be interesting on the table.
Very few would do the 2 or three day thing then charge. with panels the cost they are.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 5th of November 2017 05:31:28 PM
Come on Macka, you are starting sound like a luddite, yet you can handle the new technology of a mobile phone and computer...... I think it's just a case of fear of the unknown so attack rather than accept and learn something new.
If you can get 3 days out of 200Ah of AGM batteries then you could get the same out of 100Ah of a lithium battery. The cost factor? How many $$ in AGM batteries would it cost to be able to still do the 3 days after 10 yrs?
How expensive was it to change from the hurricane lamp to solar/battery and all the gear required to make it work.... including the lights themselves? You could have bought a lot of kero for that outlay couldn't you..... can you see the link between what you are saying now to the path you have already taken?
T1 Terry
Gday...
Terry has been deeply involved in the technology for many years ... http://t1lithium.net/
He has been a staunch advocate and developer of lithium systems for RVers.
If you do some google research you will find quite a few testimonials from happy users of Terry's systems - eg ...
"Our very good fortune was in having one of Australia's foremost experts and installers of lithium now living close to where we live. Terry Covill is over at Mannum (SA) and goes by the business name of T1 Lithium."
Cheers - John
I suspected as much.
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:12:33 PM
-- Edited by Santa on Tuesday 7th of November 2017 01:14:15 PM
No need to suspect, he has made no secret of the fact.
Perhaps I just don't get out and about enough, have never seen the business advertised.
Hardly still under development in the manner that your post suggests.
Lithium cells and batteries have been around for 35 years, yeah, 1980!
Next you'll be telling me that these dang-fangled, voo-doo, black magic, things called computers, (which have only been around since the second world war), are still expensive and under development.
Well, Doh!! Of course they are.
All popular technology is under constant development, and yes, the absolute very latest is always expensive so that the early adopters can pay back the R&D costs, but come on, lithium isn't expensive when you compare what it can do Vs old lead-acid and we've been using Lithium in everything cordless for more than 20 years.
Really, when was the last time anyone went and bought a Nickel Cadmium or Nickel Metal Hydride cell/battery.
Remember when a 1.2V AA NiCad once cost $10 each, then they dropped to less than $2 with what we thought was a whopping great capacity of 2,000mAh.
Well now a 18650 (modern equiv to AA size) 3.7Volt 3,400mAh lithium can be bought for less than $2, simply because they make and sell lots of them.
The lead acid battery was invented way back in 1859 !! If everyone started buying lithium, the prices would drop a whole lot quicker.
-- Edited by Hylife on Thursday 9th of November 2017 07:59:40 PM
-- Edited by Hylife on Thursday 9th of November 2017 08:00:33 PM
It almost looks like T1 Terry made the statement above but I do not think he actually made that statement at all!!!
Dibs