Living in England right now and I must report that diesels are on the nose big time right through Europe. Ten years ago they were the big thing. I know not everything that happens up here catches in Australia, but I think it might be wise to bear it in mind. Second hand prices are way down and punters are steering clear of diesels in droves now.
Of course they dont drive many big proper 4wd vehicles here, most diesels are cars. The bigger suvs are range rovers, Porsche Cayenne, Audi etc. None of them are proper outback vehicles. And they dont need them really, just the odd patch of mud here and there, but you are never far from the next village or town.
There are a few issues, some related. The main thing is nitrous oxide emissions, they only really started thinking about them in the past five or ten years. This was behind the VW emissions scandal etc. faking emissions test results. The claim is now that they are killing people at an alarming rate, especially in built up areas. This month Central London started charging ten quid for older diesel cars to just drive into the zone. Every trip, mind you.
The other thing is cost of replacing the diesel particulate filters, that all? modern diesels have. They last about sixty or eighty thousand miles I think. And cost from about £800 and up to replace. Huge here, where a vehicle with that mileage is not worth much anyway.
The value of diesels before this was superior torque, and superior fuel consumption. Modern small capacity turbo petrol motors are closing the gap on consumption, but not so much on torque. Diesels of course remain a superior towing vehicle. But what happens when governments start dicking round with fuel prices and restrictions?
i am also conscious of longevity levels with the newer small capacity turbo diesels. They are putting out huge outputs from some pretty small engines. The old low stressed 4 litre diesels used to go forever, but how long will these new little things last?
Having owned a few high capacity diesels, and loving them, I was planning to buy a Pajero or late model Patrol when home at Christmas. I am now thinking I might go a second hand vehicle, a five year old or so, in case the trends here in Europe follow me to Australia. Buy a cheaper one they depreciate less hopefully.
I know that there is no option really in Aus but to go for a diesel, whether a mid size or full size if you want to tow. And I a, not sure that nitrous oxide will be an issue outside the big cities anyway. But governments from both sides have form manipulating fuel prices for their social engineering objectives, and fear we might see the price of diesel at the pump heading higher compared with unleaded in the future.
Cheers
toglhot said
10:23 AM Oct 26, 2017
I;d be very surprised if manufacturers aren't working on the problems associated with diesels as we speak. Remember when petrol engined vehicles had no polution gear attached and then overnight it became mandatory!
Tony Bev said
10:30 AM Oct 26, 2017
I read about that, a while back, Ross
I am sure that we will go down the same track, here in Australia, in the future
I do remember when we went to unleaded petrol, because it was claimed that the children in Sydney, had less brain power, due to the lead in the atmosphere
Aus-Kiwi said
10:47 AM Oct 26, 2017
It was more about their new pollution
Laws . Rather than the actual motor type. Although the cheating didnât help . We have a far different environment here . In Europe thereâs a hotel or B&B to stop over in . We tend to have larger, heavier vehicles due to distance and things we take with us !! Similar things happened when PVC system where fitted or when unleaded fuel came in . Some Manu where caught out with inferior parts ., Unleaded or LPG was death on Holdens 202 motors valves for example . Itâs a long evolution that we have to keep changing with the times .,
macka17 said
11:10 AM Oct 26, 2017
You Towing. Buy a diesel. Bigger the easier and safer.
Forget the "laws" changing. It won't happen "seriously" in our driving times. There are too many on road. being built. fore planned for for any government to cut it's own throat trying to discard them.
What they going to put under the bonnets of trucks. "Electric". They have since b4 I was a boy in the early '40's. THEY need a power supply IE Diesel donk to drive generators.
Don't worry about it mate. Buy your Pajero patrol or Land Rover. and Enjoy them.
Second Hand. FULL BOOKS RECORD ONLY... I only ever buy Superseded models (Last years). EX Demo. or around end of warranty.
This D-Max (after selling on the Patrol which was a Superseded. 34km on clock. $4ish off price.) was 4 months out of warranty. 67k on clock. Book record servicing right through. (EX council Managers wheels). No towbar. No nothing. drivers seat used only. New tyres.
Dealer offered Their 12 month wty from purchase date. With Roadside assist.
$23.5k and a full tank of juice to get home on. I took it. Immaculate.
-- Edited by macka17 on Thursday 26th of October 2017 11:13:40 AM
Possum3 said
01:44 PM Oct 26, 2017
Common Rail is the bane of the diesel in Australia, as we do not seem to be able to guarantee the Quality and Cleanliness of the diesel - there are still some cheaper outlets adulterating the diesel as well.
The cost of overhauling a common rail truck engine is astronomical - just because of a refill of crap fuel.
Roving-Dutchy said
02:15 PM Oct 26, 2017
To all who believe you can't possibly have electric b doubles, Volvo and Mercedes are already developing same, they already have a range of 1100 k's the power for the motors is supplied by a hydrogen fuel cell.
In the future China will probably show us the way, as over the next 3 years they are spending 5 billion dollars on renewable energy.
Cheers
David
toglhot said
04:30 PM Oct 26, 2017
First we had Aussie cars, then came the Japanese cars that everybody said were just just cheap and nasty copies, then came the Koreans which people likewise said were just cheap and nasty copies. Now the Commodore has gone to keep the Falcon company and Japanese and Korean manufacturers rule. In the next few decade we will no doubt see Chinese vehicles proliferate.
Remember what we all said about Japanese cars? Remember what we all said about Korean cars? Pretty much what we're all saying about Chinese cars now.
Holden and Ford woke up too late, offering the same old cars we drove in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s despite buyers staying away in their droves. And of course just as the axe was falling Ford thought it might be a good idea to offer a diesel - too late, the horse has bolted.
Do you think the Japanese or Koreans will go down the same path - not on your nelly, smarter than we are!
I look to the Koreans to solve the diesel problems, the Chinese will eventually take over.
SouthernComfort said
05:05 PM Oct 26, 2017
As we stand today we're between a rock and hard place. Diesel's days are numbered (whatever number that may be), petrol is uneconomic for a large 4x4 pulling 2-3 tonnes of caravan, so until the electric developers come up with a power plant with the kind of torque and outputs we need, we're stuck. European caravaners have at least one less obstacle than us due to their lighter vans, they can tow without heavy diesels. In the meantime I'm inclined to agree with not "over investing" in new diesel, decent second hand makes more sense while the whole thing shakes down. I don't agree that the demise of diesel won't happen in our remaining driving time, not for all of us anyway, the changes may well accelerate rapidly once the alternatives are developed - and they aren't far off.
Just a pity it won't be Oz at the forefront of the development, we'll be the followers as usual.
toglhot said
06:05 PM Oct 26, 2017
Where would you plug your electric tug into out back of beyond?
hako said
06:36 PM Oct 26, 2017
toglhot wrote:
Where would you plug your electric tug into out back of beyond?
The same place you'd fill up with dino fuel - a service station - the remote ones off the grid have generators.....it may take a bit longer to fill up and they'll just instal bigger generators (at your cost!). In a places like Quilpie you'd charge overnite whilst staying at the caravan park.
Good Luck.
Ron-D said
07:02 PM Oct 26, 2017
Who knows what the future vehicles will be like,but I doubt very much deseil tugs will be replaced as heavy tow vehicles in my life time. A lot of us are probably just about on our last tow vehicle. young people with there whole life in front of them who knows almost anything is possible if you have enough years .
meetoo said
07:05 PM Oct 26, 2017
hako wrote:
toglhot wrote:
Where would you plug your electric tug into out back of beyond?
The same place you'd fill up with dino fuel - a service station - the remote ones off the grid have generators.....it may take a bit longer to fill up and they'll just instal bigger generators (at your cost!). In a places like Quilpie you'd charge overnite whilst staying at the caravan park.
Good Luck.
Crikey, can you imagine the cost of a night in a caravan park! Gonna be a big call for charging stations in free camps.
Cheers, John.
Kebbin said
07:11 PM Oct 26, 2017
Were having a energy crisis now can you even imagine what it is going to be like with electric vehicles taking over from combustion engines along with a government that has no future energy policy.
Old and tired said
08:43 PM Oct 26, 2017
It is a mistake to underestimate the ruthlessness and stupidity of governments. Here in the UK the last Labour government began promoting diesels and offering incentives to get out of petrol cars. The issue back then was fuel economy, and CO2 pollution, diesels were much better on both counts. All the pundits talked up the virtuous Diesel engine as being environmentally friendly and the correct moral choice etc. People were actively persuaded to buy diesel. A lot of well meaning, environmentally aware people did just that!
Now, with the great majority of those diesel cars still on the road, people still paying them off in some cases, the present government, and the Labour opposition are trying to get diesels off the road. Restricting access to city centres for older diesels, etc etc. And the pundits are all talking down diesels, as dirty, unsocial, polluting things.
The relative cost of driving a diesel has increased markedly. First, they have always been a fair bit more expensive to buy. Now it emerges that long term servicing costs, diesel particulate filters and so on, are much higher for Diesel engines. And the resale values of diesels have fallen a long way....partly the VW emissions scandal, but also all the talk about DPF replacement and so on.
Vehicle ownership history
This is all a bloody shame, after being pretty anti diesel most of my life I have had a series of ever better diesel vehicles in the past ten or fifteen years. I started with a 1973 Landcruiser 4 litre Ute, it did me as a second car for five years or so, then grabbed a 2008 Holden Rodeo, the 3 litre DMax. It was so awesome I thought I would never change. Shifting to England for work four years ago I fell into a cheap Mercedes C320 wagon for a few grand. A 2005 model. This was a revelation. It was smooth and incredibly powerful, although already an old age pensioner it was the best car we had ever had. Another 3 litre, it went like an absolute rocket. Pushing seventy and getting a bit soft in the head I swapped it for a 2016 Mercedes E350 coupe last year. This is scary fast and very weird, but I will not bring it home. Over here it is a bit like driving a Holden, but in Aust, as you will know, only plonkers drive cars like that.
So unable to afford a Landcruiser V8, I will get my planned five year old full size diesel 4wd. I tried one of the Cruiser seventy series V8s a couple of years ago, and I can tell you, it had hardly advanced at all since my faithful 73 model, one of the last HJ47s made. I wish i had kept Trevor the Truck, as we called the HJ, but I sold it to a chook farmer for $4000 to pull his free range chicken coops around his farm.
I would love a really old GQ Patrol, they look awesome, but Mr Barker my spiritual mentor and mechanical adviser has forbidden it. Too old, he says, and too much trouble. Mr Barker is a Landcruiser man, but being an AGrade mechanic in his youth he is able to defray the cost of repairs by doing a lot of the work himself. Nevertheless he spends several thousand a year keeping his Cruiser up to scratch.
I am not against Toyotas, but cannot believe how expensive they are!
Stay cool
RossG
macka17 said
09:04 PM Oct 26, 2017
Go The GQ Mate. or a GU.
Both are the better ones on the AUST roads for economy and RELIABLITY. Then some.
I've had both.
The Q is in a league of it's own, but skinny inside. A GU 3 ltr. set up properly is magic
I was a diesel tech too.
And. Funnily. in 14+ yrs of towing a 3ton van.
Only changed a key ring sensor. coupla front belt tensioners.
and did a bit of preventative, around $3 grand ALL UP.
Old and tired said
10:42 PM Oct 26, 2017
My theory is controversial, but I hold by it. The Japanese are Buddhists. Their whole thinking and value set centres around duty, and pride, and quality. It was inevitable that they would quickly rise to produce great quality cars. Back in the seventies Mr Barker my mechanical mentor and I used to drive old Toyota Crowns around the bush tracks. They were outstanding, and cheap to buy. The Koreans are Buddhists. Same thing. I have never owned a Korean vehicle, but would buy one without hesitation.
The Germans and Eastern Europeans are serious Catholics. They also are into duty, and guilt. With US help after WW2 Germany built and perfected first class engineering and manufacturing processes. You simply cannot best an old German car for precision, and serious minded belts and braces design. The most reliable cars in Europe are SKODAs, German engineering and Czech manufacture.
I work on the basis that country of origin is a big factor. The worst cars for reliability are English and American ones. Try a Land Rover, or a Jeep! I also avoid, just for safety, cars from France, Italy, India, Malaysia, and any communist country. I have had a couple built in South Africa, the BMW was fine, the Ford Focus not so much.
So buy from Australia, (second hand alas!) Japan, Thailand, Korea, Germany and Czech Republic.
Dont you remember back in the day buying a new car, and keeping a list of twenty or thirty faults to be fixed in the first ten thousand Ks? It was a nightmare, but we took it as normal. Mid seventies, the Toyotas being too expensive, I stumped up for a new Nissan 260C. Not a single fault. Not one in two years of ownership from brand new. I switched then, and didnt come back until Ford and Holden had fixed their processes.
During a few good years I grew attached to BMWs, seven series I managed to buy cheap, direct imports and such. I even bought one from the Russian Embassy at one stage. This is the late eighties and early nineties. A standard service from an independent garage cost about $2000 twice a year. You could buy a decent car for that much at the auctions! When the good times ended I traded my BMW for a Statesman V8. First service I went to pick it up and they were in a real state. We are so sorry about the price etc. They went on and on about the multiple faults they had to fix, this was a three year old I bought in an auction for not much. I was terrified! Anyway, it turned out to be $280 or something, I almost burst out laughing.
All of which points to the wisdom and judgement of the grey nomads, who overwhelmingly drive Japanese or Thai built vehicles. Good on yer!
Old and tired said
10:43 PM Oct 26, 2017
I hear what you are saying and will take a good hard look at the GU. See what Mr Barker says.
Ross
Aus-Kiwi said
10:46 PM Oct 26, 2017
If youâve bought Toyotaâs ? Chances are the parts are made in Korea . The Japs use other Asian countries for cheap labour . Even Lexus parts are made there ..
Eaglemax said
12:14 AM Oct 27, 2017
We better get used to change as change is coming.
Servo's are into providing fuel no matter what the fuel.
Wont be long and a tray of batteries will swap at a servo like swap and go lpg. Tesla electric cars can out accelerate petrol cars. Yep they cost over $300,000 currently but it will come down.
Watch out for govt subsidies. Some got 66 cents/kw for solar now 6 cents. Same vould happen with new fuels.
dabbler said
01:01 AM Oct 27, 2017
Teslas are well under $300k and will only get cheaper especially when they start producing less luxurious versions. Other manufacturers are joining the party, we just don't see them here. Same with hybrids, we just don't see the range here in OZ.
I doubt servos as we know them will be doing battery swaps. AFAIK there are no manufacturers considering this option. As most servos survive financially on the food and drink they sell when we buy fuel, we may see fewer in an electric future.
Old and tired said
01:16 AM Oct 27, 2017
I have been in a Tesla, a mate has one. They are about £100000 in the UK. They more or less drive themselves, we were in the middle of London and you do not have to touch the wheel til you get to an intersection. That is dead set true. Range is a problem, even in tiny England. You often have to break a journey to top up the battery.
Aus-Kiwi said
01:20 AM Oct 27, 2017
Out with the GENERATOR !! Ohhhj noooo
rockylizard said
08:26 AM Oct 27, 2017
Gday...
Old and Tired, definitely very interesting how our experiences during our life colour/influence our opinion of things.
My first vehicle was a Hillman Minx. Not a bad car but as an innocent youngun it had some faults I had looked past - I should have looked past the red leather upholstery which looked posh and focused on his mechanical condition.
I then fell in love with Renault - R8, followed by two R10s - fantastic vehicles that gave me faultless, reliable, comfortable and economical transport for many years.
My bush exploits drove me to a Landrover Series III LWB. Again, despite the carrying on by my mates, was a reliable and fantastic vehicle for travelling and bush-bashing. Many years of happy days with that old thing travelling all around this wide, brown land.
I ended up following the mob and went to Hilux and then Landcruisers for a few years. Again all of them were excellent, reliable vehicles.
I am now back in Land Rover ... Discovery 3 TDV6 auto SE. Had this baby for eight years and now 237,000Km. What a vehicle. So comfortable, so reliable, does its work without a problem or hesitation - best car, best 4x4, best tow tug I have owned.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, while your experiences have coloured your opinion of what are good vehicles ... so have mine.
Surprisingly, there are 100s of others whose experiences with their various vehicle choices over the years have also influenced/coloured their opinions. just ask Macka
Lucky we all have differing lives and experiences ... makes for good banter around the campfire - might catch ya there some day.
PS: back on topic ... fossil fuel vehicles will definitely be overtaken by the 'next generation' of motive transport. However, diesel fuel in this country will be available for at least the rest of my time on this planet ... dunno, or much care, about what will be here 20 years from now.
Cheers - John
SouthernComfort said
10:49 AM Oct 27, 2017
Old and tired wrote:
My theory is controversial, but I hold by it. The Japanese are Buddhists. Their whole thinking and value set centres around duty, and pride, and quality. It was inevitable that they would quickly rise to produce great quality cars. Back in the seventies Mr Barker my mechanical mentor and I used to drive old Toyota Crowns around the bush tracks. They were outstanding, and cheap to buy. The Koreans are Buddhists. Same thing. I have never owned a Korean vehicle, but would buy one without hesitation.
The Germans and Eastern Europeans are serious Catholics. They also are into duty, and guilt. With US help after WW2 Germany built and perfected first class engineering and manufacturing processes. You simply cannot best an old German car for precision, and serious minded belts and braces design. The most reliable cars in Europe are SKODAs, German engineering and Czech manufacture.
I work on the basis that country of origin is a big factor. The worst cars for reliability are English and American ones. Try a Land Rover, or a Jeep! I also avoid, just for safety, cars from France, Italy, India, Malaysia, and any communist country. I have had a couple built in South Africa, the BMW was fine, the Ford Focus not so much.
So buy from Australia, (second hand alas!) Japan, Thailand, Korea, Germany and Czech Republic.
Dont you remember back in the day buying a new car, and keeping a list of twenty or thirty faults to be fixed in the first ten thousand Ks? It was a nightmare, but we took it as normal. Mid seventies, the Toyotas being too expensive, I stumped up for a new Nissan 260C. Not a single fault. Not one in two years of ownership from brand new. I switched then, and didnt come back until Ford and Holden had fixed their processes.
During a few good years I grew attached to BMWs, seven series I managed to buy cheap, direct imports and such. I even bought one from the Russian Embassy at one stage. This is the late eighties and early nineties. A standard service from an independent garage cost about $2000 twice a year. You could buy a decent car for that much at the auctions! When the good times ended I traded my BMW for a Statesman V8. First service I went to pick it up and they were in a real state. We are so sorry about the price etc. They went on and on about the multiple faults they had to fix, this was a three year old I bought in an auction for not much. I was terrified! Anyway, it turned out to be $280 or something, I almost burst out laughing.
All of which points to the wisdom and judgement of the grey nomads, who overwhelmingly drive Japanese or Thai built vehicles. Good on yer!
Well some of what you say seems sound and at least you open by saying you have a controversial theory! My view might be just as controversial then.
Have you ever owned any of the makes/nationalities you "avoid" (i.e. LR, Jeep and everything from Italy, France, US, UK etc)?
If you've never owned one, then you're merely subscribing to folklore which is based on exaggerated stories mostly devoid of personal experience. In Melbourne, right now, you literally can't drive anywhere without tripping over hundreds of new (less than 1-2 years old) LR and Jeep products. Are they all wrong?
One of the most capable and reliable cars I've owned was a SII Discovery TD5. Wish I still had it, only sold it years ago when I got a company car. On the other hand one of the worst cars I owned came out of a Nissan wrapper. Does that mean I think all LR's are great and all Nissans are rubbish? Of course not, what an unfounded generalization that would be.
toglhot said
11:44 AM Oct 27, 2017
Yep, well I suppose in stead of carrying a couple of jerries you could tow a trailer with a couple of spare sets of batteries, or put a generator on the trailer, that'd solve the problem.
I personally think we are taking the wrong turn in going down the electric vehicle road. Fuel cells and hydrogen make a little more sense. Or maybe a hybrid - electric/fuel cell/hydrogen.
No doubt far into the future (not in mine) we will see many fuel systems gracing our roads. I don't see any as winning out, only see petrol and diesel as being the big losers.
-- Edited by toglhot on Friday 27th of October 2017 11:56:37 AM
macka17 said
12:22 PM Oct 27, 2017
Unfortunately Tony.
SOME. Have decades of proven bad reputation to over ride.
Regardless of how good they "may??" be nowadays.
Series 2 and 2A LAndy's were the best small OFF roader ever built.
You'd die if you saw where we took\Winched those things in the army.
My fav.
was an old Series 1, '49\'51 from memory.
15hp Side valve donk H\Low only, Permanent 4wd.
same as Rangie copied from. Small Light go anywhere toys.
Any Disco after the 5 pot was a good one. but pricing followed it. UP.
Unfortunately.
Mitzi's were good tugs.
Once they changed out that little car gearbox innards they had in early ones.
Nissans (Patrol) are the strongest. Most reliable of the big ones.
Toyota's.
I've only driven a couple. all walk all over the road with their steering.
Soggy as suspension. and gutless engines..
Seem to get plenty of workshop time too.
This V6 VW ute could be a goodie. IF they ever sort the electronics in them.
D.max. Forever, in their UTE 2. 5 ton weight limits.
They a truck. Built by a truck mfg. Can't kill. Genuinely.
Unlike the one that advertises so.
Earlier Mazda's seem good what I've towed with (2) 2010,
more power that 2010 D-max. side by side towing, with bigger internal cab space)
Tritons an honest truck but look funny.
Rangers are typical Fords. Trailer behind it to catch the bits that fall off.
But good running gear. Comfortable seats.
D-Max the Quiet one. Does everything. easily. with minimum fuss and great economy.
Similar to the Evernew vans.
Quiet. reliable. Go anywhere and do nothing much wrong.
Neither the best. Nor the strongest. but overall.
the easiest to own at favourable pricing.
Nowadays. (and for a long time now) I'd recommend them over all these modern rigs.
They both proven and economical to run.
Coromal as an older van take some beating too, when you look around.
I went down to Melb for an Evernew. Came back with a Coromal???(WA Mfg'd).
You tell me.
Another longishhhhh one. That will Maybe. Hopefully.
Help some newbies that may be starting out with "Not new" rigs.
I've had 40 yrs of new cars\vans. demo out of date short mioleage only nowadays.
From a dealer.
THEY give real backup IF there are any problems I find.
Depending on your attitude of course.
I never seem to have problems as such and always smile.
Regardless of what'd going on behind the eyes. SMILE... It gets more.
See Ya. And turn the kettle on first OK
Hey Jim said
06:03 PM Oct 27, 2017
Sorry.
I'm not giving back my 200TTD GX.
I'm just NOT. Full Stop.
Jim
macka17 said
08:40 PM Oct 27, 2017
As a tug. I have to admit. The couple I've test driven have plenty of power. But .
they felt soggy and wandering over the road compared to the Patrols I've had.
I got out of my patrol Into a dealers demo model. 2 hrs later. back into Patrol.
Definitely the Patrol thank you.
More comfortable, and definitely more "precice" on the road.
They felt like you driving on a cushion.
Lotsa power though and they liked the oil too. along with diesel.
Old and tired said
02:52 AM Oct 28, 2017
Well Tony
Have you ever owned any of the makes/nationalities you avoid? SORT OF.
(I am loving this)
Jeeps. Inherited a Cherokee off my son, who left it at the airport in his way overseas to live. It was maybe a three year old by then, just at the end of warranty period. It absolutely fell apart soon after (transfer case) and I had a terrible job convincing Jeep to fix it under warranty. The handling in the wet round Melbourne was awful. Had a grand Cherokee on lease from MB on a family deal. Went like a rocket, my wife loved it. 12mpg in the old money.
France. Renault 16 TL. Renault 16TS. Peugeot 504. All excellent, all seventies models. I have got an idea they might have been assembled in Australia? The 16TS was a masterpiece!
Italy. The wife had a little Fiat for a while, model escapes me. It was excellent.
UK. 1973 Rover V8 as a play car. It was beastly, no end of trouble. I was a laughing stock for years. 1952 Wolseley while I was at university, burned out exhaust valves every five thousand miles. A series of Hillmans, my father in law was a Rootes Group dealer in NZ.
USA. Dont know whether you will allow this one, I had a 1937 Oldsmobile 6 when I was at school. You get your licence at 15 in NZ. It was renowned as the first model to have juice brakes as we called them, hydraulic brakes. 1937 Fords still ran mechanical linkages. Even the famous juice brakes did not stop the thing all that well!
When my business closed one step ahead of the bank manager in the early 2000s I was pretty whacked and dispirited, and more or less broke. I got a job selling new cars in Geelong. A multi franchise dealership, good family, straight shooters. A lot of my prejudice springs from that period. I sold new Hondas, while it lasted. Impeccable. The brands we hated, Renault and VW. You couldnt keep them running long enough to deliver them. Brand new cars! Who would have thought?
Right now we have just sold one runaround preparing to get home again. A 2010 Skoda Octavia 1.8 turbo. Beautiful. Bought it for £6000 and gave it away to a mate. We still have a Mercedes E350 cdi coupe. Second 3 litre turbo diesel we have had in the UK. We got this one six months old ex MB. Goes like a rocket but a pretty stupid choice for a couple of old people. We are not going to bring it home.
I would love a Disco, and the wife loves them... but really I cannot make myself go that way. Here in the old country Land Rover owners are called the bonnet up brigade. Poms have a very loose notion of what quality means. They associate it with fancy ness not reliability. The least reliable new car? Bentley.
Living in England right now and I must report that diesels are on the nose big time right through Europe. Ten years ago they were the big thing. I know not everything that happens up here catches in Australia, but I think it might be wise to bear it in mind. Second hand prices are way down and punters are steering clear of diesels in droves now.
Of course they dont drive many big proper 4wd vehicles here, most diesels are cars. The bigger suvs are range rovers, Porsche Cayenne, Audi etc. None of them are proper outback vehicles. And they dont need them really, just the odd patch of mud here and there, but you are never far from the next village or town.
There are a few issues, some related. The main thing is nitrous oxide emissions, they only really started thinking about them in the past five or ten years. This was behind the VW emissions scandal etc. faking emissions test results. The claim is now that they are killing people at an alarming rate, especially in built up areas. This month Central London started charging ten quid for older diesel cars to just drive into the zone. Every trip, mind you.
The other thing is cost of replacing the diesel particulate filters, that all? modern diesels have. They last about sixty or eighty thousand miles I think. And cost from about £800 and up to replace. Huge here, where a vehicle with that mileage is not worth much anyway.
The value of diesels before this was superior torque, and superior fuel consumption. Modern small capacity turbo petrol motors are closing the gap on consumption, but not so much on torque. Diesels of course remain a superior towing vehicle. But what happens when governments start dicking round with fuel prices and restrictions?
i am also conscious of longevity levels with the newer small capacity turbo diesels. They are putting out huge outputs from some pretty small engines. The old low stressed 4 litre diesels used to go forever, but how long will these new little things last?
Having owned a few high capacity diesels, and loving them, I was planning to buy a Pajero or late model Patrol when home at Christmas. I am now thinking I might go a second hand vehicle, a five year old or so, in case the trends here in Europe follow me to Australia. Buy a cheaper one they depreciate less hopefully.
I know that there is no option really in Aus but to go for a diesel, whether a mid size or full size if you want to tow. And I a, not sure that nitrous oxide will be an issue outside the big cities anyway. But governments from both sides have form manipulating fuel prices for their social engineering objectives, and fear we might see the price of diesel at the pump heading higher compared with unleaded in the future.
Cheers
I am sure that we will go down the same track, here in Australia, in the future
I do remember when we went to unleaded petrol, because it was claimed that the children in Sydney, had less brain power, due to the lead in the atmosphere
You Towing. Buy a diesel. Bigger the easier and safer.
Forget the "laws" changing. It won't happen "seriously" in our driving times.
There are too many on road. being built. fore planned for
for any government to cut it's own throat trying to discard them.
What they going to put under the bonnets of trucks. "Electric".
They have since b4 I was a boy in the early '40's.
THEY need a power supply IE Diesel donk to drive generators.
Don't worry about it mate.
Buy your Pajero patrol or Land Rover.
and Enjoy them.
Second Hand. FULL BOOKS RECORD ONLY...
I only ever buy Superseded models (Last years). EX Demo. or around end of warranty.
This D-Max (after selling on the Patrol which was a Superseded. 34km on clock. $4ish off price.)
was 4 months out of warranty. 67k on clock. Book record servicing right through. (EX council Managers wheels). No towbar. No nothing. drivers seat used only. New tyres.
Dealer offered Their 12 month wty from purchase date. With Roadside assist.
$23.5k and a full tank of juice to get home on. I took it. Immaculate.
-- Edited by macka17 on Thursday 26th of October 2017 11:13:40 AM
Common Rail is the bane of the diesel in Australia, as we do not seem to be able to guarantee the Quality and Cleanliness of the diesel - there are still some cheaper outlets adulterating the diesel as well.
The cost of overhauling a common rail truck engine is astronomical - just because of a refill of crap fuel.
In the future China will probably show us the way, as over the next 3 years they are spending 5 billion dollars on renewable energy.
Cheers
David
Remember what we all said about Japanese cars? Remember what we all said about Korean cars? Pretty much what we're all saying about Chinese cars now.
Holden and Ford woke up too late, offering the same old cars we drove in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s despite buyers staying away in their droves. And of course just as the axe was falling Ford thought it might be a good idea to offer a diesel - too late, the horse has bolted.
Do you think the Japanese or Koreans will go down the same path - not on your nelly, smarter than we are!
I look to the Koreans to solve the diesel problems, the Chinese will eventually take over.
Just a pity it won't be Oz at the forefront of the development, we'll be the followers as usual.
The same place you'd fill up with dino fuel - a service station - the remote ones off the grid have generators.....it may take a bit longer to fill up and they'll just instal bigger generators (at your cost!). In a places like Quilpie you'd charge overnite whilst staying at the caravan park.
Good Luck.
Who knows what the future vehicles will be like,but I doubt very much deseil tugs will be replaced as heavy tow vehicles in my life time. A lot of us are probably just about on our last tow vehicle. young people with there whole life in front of them who knows almost anything is possible if you have enough years .
Crikey, can you imagine the cost of a night in a caravan park! Gonna be a big call for charging stations in free camps.
Cheers, John.
It is a mistake to underestimate the ruthlessness and stupidity of governments. Here in the UK the last Labour government began promoting diesels and offering incentives to get out of petrol cars. The issue back then was fuel economy, and CO2 pollution, diesels were much better on both counts. All the pundits talked up the virtuous Diesel engine as being environmentally friendly and the correct moral choice etc. People were actively persuaded to buy diesel. A lot of well meaning, environmentally aware people did just that!
Now, with the great majority of those diesel cars still on the road, people still paying them off in some cases, the present government, and the Labour opposition are trying to get diesels off the road. Restricting access to city centres for older diesels, etc etc. And the pundits are all talking down diesels, as dirty, unsocial, polluting things.
The relative cost of driving a diesel has increased markedly. First, they have always been a fair bit more expensive to buy. Now it emerges that long term servicing costs, diesel particulate filters and so on, are much higher for Diesel engines. And the resale values of diesels have fallen a long way....partly the VW emissions scandal, but also all the talk about DPF replacement and so on.
Vehicle ownership history
This is all a bloody shame, after being pretty anti diesel most of my life I have had a series of ever better diesel vehicles in the past ten or fifteen years. I started with a 1973 Landcruiser 4 litre Ute, it did me as a second car for five years or so, then grabbed a 2008 Holden Rodeo, the 3 litre DMax. It was so awesome I thought I would never change. Shifting to England for work four years ago I fell into a cheap Mercedes C320 wagon for a few grand. A 2005 model. This was a revelation. It was smooth and incredibly powerful, although already an old age pensioner it was the best car we had ever had. Another 3 litre, it went like an absolute rocket. Pushing seventy and getting a bit soft in the head I swapped it for a 2016 Mercedes E350 coupe last year. This is scary fast and very weird, but I will not bring it home. Over here it is a bit like driving a Holden, but in Aust, as you will know, only plonkers drive cars like that.
So unable to afford a Landcruiser V8, I will get my planned five year old full size diesel 4wd. I tried one of the Cruiser seventy series V8s a couple of years ago, and I can tell you, it had hardly advanced at all since my faithful 73 model, one of the last HJ47s made. I wish i had kept Trevor the Truck, as we called the HJ, but I sold it to a chook farmer for $4000 to pull his free range chicken coops around his farm.
I would love a really old GQ Patrol, they look awesome, but Mr Barker my spiritual mentor and mechanical adviser has forbidden it. Too old, he says, and too much trouble. Mr Barker is a Landcruiser man, but being an AGrade mechanic in his youth he is able to defray the cost of repairs by doing a lot of the work himself. Nevertheless he spends several thousand a year keeping his Cruiser up to scratch.
I am not against Toyotas, but cannot believe how expensive they are!
Stay cool
RossG
Both are the better ones on the AUST roads for economy and RELIABLITY. Then some.
I've had both.
The Q is in a league of it's own, but skinny inside. A GU 3 ltr. set up properly is magic
I was a diesel tech too.
And. Funnily. in 14+ yrs of towing a 3ton van.
Only changed a key ring sensor. coupla front belt tensioners.
and did a bit of preventative, around $3 grand ALL UP.
My theory is controversial, but I hold by it. The Japanese are Buddhists. Their whole thinking and value set centres around duty, and pride, and quality. It was inevitable that they would quickly rise to produce great quality cars. Back in the seventies Mr Barker my mechanical mentor and I used to drive old Toyota Crowns around the bush tracks. They were outstanding, and cheap to buy. The Koreans are Buddhists. Same thing. I have never owned a Korean vehicle, but would buy one without hesitation.
The Germans and Eastern Europeans are serious Catholics. They also are into duty, and guilt. With US help after WW2 Germany built and perfected first class engineering and manufacturing processes. You simply cannot best an old German car for precision, and serious minded belts and braces design. The most reliable cars in Europe are SKODAs, German engineering and Czech manufacture.
I work on the basis that country of origin is a big factor. The worst cars for reliability are English and American ones. Try a Land Rover, or a Jeep! I also avoid, just for safety, cars from France, Italy, India, Malaysia, and any communist country. I have had a couple built in South Africa, the BMW was fine, the Ford Focus not so much.
So buy from Australia, (second hand alas!) Japan, Thailand, Korea, Germany and Czech Republic.
Dont you remember back in the day buying a new car, and keeping a list of twenty or thirty faults to be fixed in the first ten thousand Ks? It was a nightmare, but we took it as normal. Mid seventies, the Toyotas being too expensive, I stumped up for a new Nissan 260C. Not a single fault. Not one in two years of ownership from brand new. I switched then, and didnt come back until Ford and Holden had fixed their processes.
During a few good years I grew attached to BMWs, seven series I managed to buy cheap, direct imports and such. I even bought one from the Russian Embassy at one stage. This is the late eighties and early nineties. A standard service from an independent garage cost about $2000 twice a year. You could buy a decent car for that much at the auctions! When the good times ended I traded my BMW for a Statesman V8. First service I went to pick it up and they were in a real state. We are so sorry about the price etc. They went on and on about the multiple faults they had to fix, this was a three year old I bought in an auction for not much. I was terrified! Anyway, it turned out to be $280 or something, I almost burst out laughing.
All of which points to the wisdom and judgement of the grey nomads, who overwhelmingly drive Japanese or Thai built vehicles. Good on yer!
I hear what you are saying and will take a good hard look at the GU. See what Mr Barker says.
Ross
Gday...
Old and Tired, definitely very interesting how our experiences during our life colour/influence our opinion of things.
My first vehicle was a Hillman Minx. Not a bad car but as an innocent youngun it had some faults I had looked past - I should have looked past the red leather upholstery which looked posh and focused on his mechanical condition.
I then fell in love with Renault - R8, followed by two R10s - fantastic vehicles that gave me faultless, reliable, comfortable and economical transport for many years.
My bush exploits drove me to a Landrover Series III LWB. Again, despite the carrying on by my mates, was a reliable and fantastic vehicle for travelling and bush-bashing. Many years of happy days with that old thing travelling all around this wide, brown land.
I ended up following the mob and went to Hilux and then Landcruisers for a few years. Again all of them were excellent, reliable vehicles.
I am now back in Land Rover ... Discovery 3 TDV6 auto SE. Had this baby for eight years and now 237,000Km. What a vehicle. So comfortable, so reliable, does its work without a problem or hesitation - best car, best 4x4, best tow tug I have owned.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, while your experiences have coloured your opinion of what are good vehicles ... so have mine.
Surprisingly, there are 100s of others whose experiences with their various vehicle choices over the years have also influenced/coloured their opinions.
just ask Macka 
Lucky we all have differing lives and experiences ... makes for good banter around the campfire - might catch ya there some day.
PS: back on topic ... fossil fuel vehicles will definitely be overtaken by the 'next generation' of motive transport. However, diesel fuel in this country will be available for at least the rest of my time on this planet ... dunno, or much care, about what will be here 20 years from now.
Cheers - John
Well some of what you say seems sound and at least you open by saying you have a controversial theory! My view might be just as controversial then.
Have you ever owned any of the makes/nationalities you "avoid" (i.e. LR, Jeep and everything from Italy, France, US, UK etc)?
If you've never owned one, then you're merely subscribing to folklore which is based on exaggerated stories mostly devoid of personal experience. In Melbourne, right now, you literally can't drive anywhere without tripping over hundreds of new (less than 1-2 years old) LR and Jeep products. Are they all wrong?
One of the most capable and reliable cars I've owned was a SII Discovery TD5. Wish I still had it, only sold it years ago when I got a company car. On the other hand one of the worst cars I owned came out of a Nissan wrapper. Does that mean I think all LR's are great and all Nissans are rubbish? Of course not, what an unfounded generalization that would be.
Yep, well I suppose in stead of carrying a couple of jerries you could tow a trailer with a couple of spare sets of batteries, or put a generator on the trailer, that'd solve the problem.
I personally think we are taking the wrong turn in going down the electric vehicle road. Fuel cells and hydrogen make a little more sense. Or maybe a hybrid - electric/fuel cell/hydrogen.
No doubt far into the future (not in mine) we will see many fuel systems gracing our roads. I don't see any as winning out, only see petrol and diesel as being the big losers.
-- Edited by toglhot on Friday 27th of October 2017 11:56:37 AM
SOME. Have decades of proven bad reputation to over ride.
Regardless of how good they "may??" be nowadays.
Series 2 and 2A LAndy's were the best small OFF roader ever built.
You'd die if you saw where we took\Winched those things in the army.
My fav.
was an old Series 1, '49\'51 from memory.
15hp Side valve donk H\Low only, Permanent 4wd.
same as Rangie copied from. Small Light go anywhere toys.
Any Disco after the 5 pot was a good one. but pricing followed it. UP.
Unfortunately.
Mitzi's were good tugs.
Once they changed out that little car gearbox innards they had in early ones.
Nissans (Patrol) are the strongest. Most reliable of the big ones.
Toyota's.
I've only driven a couple. all walk all over the road with their steering.
Soggy as suspension. and gutless engines..
Seem to get plenty of workshop time too.
This V6 VW ute could be a goodie. IF they ever sort the electronics in them.
D.max. Forever, in their UTE 2. 5 ton weight limits.
They a truck. Built by a truck mfg. Can't kill. Genuinely.
Unlike the one that advertises so.
Earlier Mazda's seem good what I've towed with (2) 2010,
more power that 2010 D-max. side by side towing, with bigger internal cab space)
Tritons an honest truck but look funny.
Rangers are typical Fords. Trailer behind it to catch the bits that fall off.
But good running gear. Comfortable seats.
D-Max the Quiet one. Does everything. easily. with minimum fuss and great economy.
Similar to the Evernew vans.
Quiet. reliable. Go anywhere and do nothing much wrong.
Neither the best. Nor the strongest. but overall.
the easiest to own at favourable pricing.
Nowadays. (and for a long time now) I'd recommend them over all these modern rigs.
They both proven and economical to run.
Coromal as an older van take some beating too, when you look around.
I went down to Melb for an Evernew. Came back with a Coromal???(WA Mfg'd).
You tell me.
Another longishhhhh one. That will Maybe. Hopefully.
Help some newbies that may be starting out with "Not new" rigs.
I've had 40 yrs of new cars\vans. demo out of date short mioleage only nowadays.
From a dealer.
THEY give real backup IF there are any problems I find.
Depending on your attitude of course.
I never seem to have problems as such and always smile.
Regardless of what'd going on behind the eyes. SMILE... It gets more.
See Ya. And turn the kettle on first OK
Sorry.
I'm not giving back my 200TTD GX.
I'm just NOT. Full Stop.
Jim
they felt soggy and wandering over the road compared to the Patrols I've had.
I got out of my patrol Into a dealers demo model. 2 hrs later. back into Patrol.
Definitely the Patrol thank you.
More comfortable, and definitely more "precice" on the road.
They felt like you driving on a cushion.
Lotsa power though and they liked the oil too. along with diesel.
Have you ever owned any of the makes/nationalities you avoid? SORT OF.
(I am loving this)
Jeeps. Inherited a Cherokee off my son, who left it at the airport in his way overseas to live. It was maybe a three year old by then, just at the end of warranty period. It absolutely fell apart soon after (transfer case) and I had a terrible job convincing Jeep to fix it under warranty. The handling in the wet round Melbourne was awful. Had a grand Cherokee on lease from MB on a family deal. Went like a rocket, my wife loved it. 12mpg in the old money.
France. Renault 16 TL. Renault 16TS. Peugeot 504. All excellent, all seventies models. I have got an idea they might have been assembled in Australia? The 16TS was a masterpiece!
Italy. The wife had a little Fiat for a while, model escapes me. It was excellent.
UK. 1973 Rover V8 as a play car. It was beastly, no end of trouble. I was a laughing stock for years. 1952 Wolseley while I was at university, burned out exhaust valves every five thousand miles. A series of Hillmans, my father in law was a Rootes Group dealer in NZ.
USA. Dont know whether you will allow this one, I had a 1937 Oldsmobile 6 when I was at school. You get your licence at 15 in NZ. It was renowned as the first model to have juice brakes as we called them, hydraulic brakes. 1937 Fords still ran mechanical linkages. Even the famous juice brakes did not stop the thing all that well!
When my business closed one step ahead of the bank manager in the early 2000s I was pretty whacked and dispirited, and more or less broke. I got a job selling new cars in Geelong. A multi franchise dealership, good family, straight shooters. A lot of my prejudice springs from that period. I sold new Hondas, while it lasted. Impeccable. The brands we hated, Renault and VW. You couldnt keep them running long enough to deliver them. Brand new cars! Who would have thought?
Right now we have just sold one runaround preparing to get home again. A 2010 Skoda Octavia 1.8 turbo. Beautiful. Bought it for £6000 and gave it away to a mate. We still have a Mercedes E350 cdi coupe. Second 3 litre turbo diesel we have had in the UK. We got this one six months old ex MB. Goes like a rocket but a pretty stupid choice for a couple of old people. We are not going to bring it home.
I would love a Disco, and the wife loves them... but really I cannot make myself go that way. Here in the old country Land Rover owners are called the bonnet up brigade. Poms have a very loose notion of what quality means. They associate it with fancy ness not reliability. The least reliable new car? Bentley.