I'm new to your forum, so hello. Just a little bit of possible help for Victorian caravan owners. My wife & I own a 2014 Jayco Silverline 21-65-4 van. We attempted to get the dealer & Jayco HQ to increase our ATM with no success at all. We already had a 600Kg payload from new , however this is not enough when you take into account the 600kg must include the 3 x 85kg water tanks, 22 litre hot water, 2 x 9kg gas bottles, the annex supplied at time of sale, the additional batteries & solar panels, additional spare wheel etc etc etc. The 600kg lost 400kg which only leaves you with 200kg for say bedding, clothes, food etc. Leaving nothing at all for Generator, tools , hoses, etc etc.
So we went looking for a VASS Vic Roads certified engineer who could inspect & approve an ATM increase. Hooray for the only engineer that responded & made an effort to help us. High Praise to Jason Underwood Design (0400123852) Email jason@judesign.com.au Jason was very professional & after inspection had a new plate to us within days. Our Silverline now has an ATM of 3500Kg & 350Kg towball download. That gave us a payload of 889Kg from empty weight.
In our opinion Jayco make a great value for money caravan but are far to ridged when it comes to its customers needs. Little to no accessories or alterations. No wonder the industry is booming with custom designed caravans. They are however more expensive.
Another inspiring bit of advice for those that are in the market for a great towing vehicle. I see that a lot of Grey Nomads are using Mazda BT50 for towing. We have one but with a little extra. We had Sixwheeler in Toowoomba modify ours to a master piece. 4495Kg GVM with 4500Kg towing. Thats 9000kg GVM for around $70,000. Ours cost around $100,000 but that was with everything you could imagine. You can also get it 4830kg GVM with 3500kg towing. Either way its the best thing we have done. Go any where vehicle with great comfort & safety for less that a Toyota. Its excellent in the Victorian High Country on even the most difficult tracks & the stability when towing is out of this world. No more WDH & no swaying when B Doubles fly past. As stiff as a board. You know what I mean. With a fully loaded set up 7885Kg GCM we have experienced between 20 to 24 litres per 100Km. Not bad at all.
Safe travels everyone.
Dougwe said
06:34 AM Sep 8, 2017
Welcome to the gang Gunnago Camping, enjoy here and out in the playground.
Interesting first post. I have gone the opposite way getting my rig 'legal'. I just got rid of 'stuff' I didn't/think I needed. So far not missing a thing. The only thing that would be nice but a luxury would be to have water in the 2x95lt tanks but being solo I cope very well with 2x10lt water containers and topping up when needed.
If I am reading you post correctly you MODIFIED your 'standard' off the shelf BT50 ?.
Keep Safe on the roads and out there.
Gunnago Camping said
08:29 AM Sep 8, 2017
Yes you are correct. My wife is always correcting my spelling & grammar. She is a school teacher.
For us it was not acceptable to travel with out water. We wished to free camp & shower. Thats why we ordered our caravan with 3 water tanks. We wanted to carry that water. We operated several retail stores one being a camping store for some 15 years.
We are big believers in fit for purpose. (Part of consumer law since 2011) If you have to travel with your water tanks empty then is that fit for purpose. In our opinion its not.
Why is it acceptable for a caravan manufacture & the retailer to sell a product that for a lot of consumers is unable to fulfill our expectations. If we take note of some statistics out in the Web far to many travelers are seriously over weight. Is this the fault of the novice caravaner or the manufactures & retailers that should be aware of what's safe & legal. Fit for purpose. If its in the caravan then it should be able to be used.
We started off as novice caravanners & traveled unknowingly over weight. Like any sensible people we made changes to satisfy our requirements. Thats why we had the caravan re rated & the tow tug modified.
iana said
08:54 AM Sep 8, 2017
Hi Gunnag, I have a similar rig to yours minus one set of wheels on the BT50, the Silverline is a bit longer, but the van ATM is standard, even though they asked if I wanted to increase it, I said no, I wanted the extra weight put in the ute.
macka17 said
01:34 PM Sep 8, 2017
50 yrs ago.
We has a set of wheels. a box trailer. bed. cooker. and seats.
Nowadays . It's just the same. apart from being,
Bigger. heavier. More exxy.
They both do\did the same thing.
My first 2 kids were brought up, mobile, on construction sites.
People waste a LOT of money on what is only, Basically.
A box trailer with coupla windows.
One day they might learn hey.
Nowadays. We spend it on going. Seeing places.
Mainly Overseas again.
Rather than just dragging it around with us with an expensive devaluing vehicle.
Dougwe said
02:43 PM Sep 8, 2017
Gunnago Camping wrote:
Yes you are correct. My wife is always correcting my spelling & grammar. She is a school teacher.
For us it was not acceptable to travel with out water. We wished to free camp & shower. Thats why we ordered our caravan with 3 water tanks. We wanted to carry that water. We operated several retail stores one being a camping store for some 15 years.
We are big believers in fit for purpose. (Part of consumer law since 2011) If you have to travel with your water tanks empty then is that fit for purpose. In our opinion its not.
Why is it acceptable for a caravan manufacture & the retailer to sell a product that for a lot of consumers is unable to fulfill our expectations. If we take note of some statistics out in the Web far to many travelers are seriously over weight. Is this the fault of the novice caravaner or the manufactures & retailers that should be aware of what's safe & legal. Fit for purpose. If its in the caravan then it should be able to be used.
We started off as novice caravanners & traveled unknowingly over weight. Like any sensible people we made changes to satisfy our requirements. Thats why we had the caravan re rated & the tow tug modified.
Thanks Chris.
grahamg said
08:07 PM Sep 8, 2017
if it ispossible to get the ATM increased by just getting a certificate from an engineeer why don't the caravan mfr's just get the higher ATM in the first place. Makes no sense to me?
Gunnago Camping said
08:32 PM Sep 8, 2017
In the beginning as an industry standard most manufactures tried to sell to the masses. Under 2500Kg Caravans. Towed with Prado's etc. Also 10+ years ago dual cab utes where mostly 2500kg towing max. Its only been in the past few years that uts are now being rated at 3500kg. We thats what they say. It's not really that simple. If you contact most caravan chassis manufactures they will tell you they make chassis to supply to numerous manufactures. The caravan manufacture then fits the compliance plate. They will rate it to what they believe will be the highest market selling point. Not what the actual chassis would take. It's unfortunately up to us to do our homework & stay legal. I do believe that forums are our best supply of information & advice. Can't beat experience.
mezza56 said
08:16 AM Sep 9, 2017
Hi Gunnago
I reckon that your going to have to get brunswick diesel chev v8 conversion in that vehicle with all the weight . Our combined weight is a tad under 6000kg and we have a ranger . I personally think that we are maxxed out already let alone 7500 + kg.
I wouldn't want to be behind you going up the hill at Toowoomba or the like. I think your asking a lot of a 3.2 litre motor . Especially when it gets hot . Its just my opinion but keep us all posted you might prove me wrong , I hope so.
macka17 said
10:37 AM Sep 9, 2017
Hey.
Every chassis Preston etc. That comes off the line.
HAS TO have it's max capacity stamped on it.
Normally in area of suspension. to blend the two.
Yrs ago. we were sensible.
had a 2 to 2,5 ton van. The large ones.
Patrol. Landcruiser. Troopie, Land Rover, to tow them.
Then you got the idiots. Big vans with the Falcon or Valiant.
Or even worse. Those pull themselves apart, rubber band Holdens.
BUT.. We all NORMALLY. travelled at much Lower road speeds.
A lot of smaller vans too, with the Falcon\Valiant crowd.
Fine in general.
Nowadays. The MFG's and dealers,
Have got these newby's over the last 15\20 yrs. going bigger and bigger.
More and more inside.
WAAAy out of proportion.
I'd say at least 75\80% of larger rigs on the road are oversize. and definitely overweight.
Females have a large proportion of blame for that. The kitchen sink Syndrome.
More. More and bigger. Look what I got. YOU ain't. Just look around.
We had 20. 22ft vans in the '60's\'70;s. Towed mainly with Big Rovers. Zodiacs, Land Rovers.
or small trucks.
Mainly full time travelling workers on construction. Breeding kids as we travelled along. (me = 3 of them)
BUT. We Generally travelled around the 20 to maybe downhill 30 miles an hr.
Often under 10mph uphill in Wales and Scotland.
Nobody bothered............
Today. It's Speed. Speed. Get there faster.
If we were ALL to get paper maps of Australia. and spend 1\2 an hr over a coffee each night.
We could 95% of the time, find an Alternate, OFF main route plot from A to B for the next day.
Better scenery. MUCH less traffic. some towns.
More relaxed all round.
PS. No matter what plating you put on a ute.
It's still a UTE. with a 2\2.5 ton Chassis to match.
Sticking a bit on the end. Does NOT. SAFELY. Increase anything.
Carry more. YEP. but overloads the complete rest of the vehicle.
INCLUDING Engine. Transm, and running gear.
Not in front of one of my vans thank you.
Get rid of all the crap you NEVER use. Go smaller.
and be waaaay more relaxed.
Listen to some of us older vanners here.
Who HAVE "bin there, Dun that" with differing sized vans. Tugs, and contents.
Me, as an example.= 55+ yrs now.
28ft to 12 ft 6in.
Best?. 535 Tandem full height.SINGLE beds.
The last one.
Comfortable. Economical.
Goes everywhere you want. When combined with the 4wd Ute. Tent. Roll out on side, solar panels.
HWS and shower\tut tent.
Gunnago Camping said
06:11 PM Sep 9, 2017
macka17
You would have to one of the most opinionated forum member on this site. It appears that your way is only best. Everyone is different & everyone has the right to purchase & use what they want or can afford.
You say 55+ but you dish out advice as if you are 90 & experienced everything on offer. Get real.
Lets see a bit of positive reply for a change.
macka17 said
07:40 PM Sep 9, 2017
Hey Gunna go.
55+ yrs actually doing it in several country's. (I'm 75)
And Opinionated. YES. As far as SAFETY for both Ourselves, and the people\property we can hit when things go 'not nice'.
A lot of yrs driving commercial on the road. Hold a lot of memories from accidents. Self inflicted by people, and to people.
If my Opinions. can help just one, newcomer or otherwise. From being one of the statistics.
Through realising the difference between. what is safe.and what is "I'd like".
My job is done.
We'd ALL like to take everything "I might need". Whether we can afford or not.
The ones that get their heads round the balance. Are the ones that have a more, relaxed. and Safer lifestyle.
The sizes of vans you see behind Utes alone. Never mind the little Prado's etc. makes my blood crawl. 98% overweight\size. and Overloaded.
Primarily because, the powers that be. MFG's. Dealers etc. With MINIMAL LAWS TO CONTROL THEM. DO NOT inform US properly.
Just what they want you to hear. and hence, Spend more of your money into their pockets.
Thankfully. The circle is turning. The law is tightening up with what you can. and what you can't. do. tow. carry.
A few are starting to get aggressive. As they realise they are over. Whatever..
and have sooo much money tied up in something that CAN'T. EVER. Be legal. Safely or otherwise. Unfortunately.
Look at the plate stating weight's and tow limits. On vehicles. from 6 to 10 yrs ago.
THEY are the numbers that should be stamped on current veh's. NOT the imaginary ones they put on there to get you towing bigger. Heavier trailers IE More money in their pockets.
They're all still. Basically/ the same chassis and running gear.
Engine power is a long way down the track as far as towing concerned. Grip on road, and gearing come in a long way further up the ladder.
That's why I write these posts.
YOU don't like. SO be it. No skin off my nose. I couldn't give a shoot. You and others of your opinion. can all go elsewhere.
Just don't read my posts and we'll both be happy hey.
Safety is the most important. EVERYTHING else comes second.
Byeee.
-- Edited by macka17 on Saturday 9th of September 2017 07:43:01 PM
Mocca said
12:55 PM Feb 25, 2018
Hi Gunnago,
Thanks for your post, very informative, Before I contact Jason, I was wondering if you had to do anything to your van to get the upgrade. I'm not far from Shep where it looks like Jason is based and have a Silverline OB 21.65.3 towed by a 2014 BT50. By law and the weights listed on the van I can only put an extra 268Kg in the van after the water tanks are filled. Would love a little bit extra allowance to cope with the Lovely's shoes. Hope the haters go easy on me. Thanks, Peter.
Hi All.
I'm new to your forum, so hello. Just a little bit of possible help for Victorian caravan owners. My wife & I own a 2014 Jayco Silverline 21-65-4 van. We attempted to get the dealer & Jayco HQ to increase our ATM with no success at all. We already had a 600Kg payload from new , however this is not enough when you take into account the 600kg must include the 3 x 85kg water tanks, 22 litre hot water, 2 x 9kg gas bottles, the annex supplied at time of sale, the additional batteries & solar panels, additional spare wheel etc etc etc. The 600kg lost 400kg which only leaves you with 200kg for say bedding, clothes, food etc. Leaving nothing at all for Generator, tools , hoses, etc etc.
So we went looking for a VASS Vic Roads certified engineer who could inspect & approve an ATM increase. Hooray for the only engineer that responded & made an effort to help us. High Praise to Jason Underwood Design (0400123852) Email jason@judesign.com.au Jason was very professional & after inspection had a new plate to us within days. Our Silverline now has an ATM of 3500Kg & 350Kg towball download. That gave us a payload of 889Kg from empty weight.
In our opinion Jayco make a great value for money caravan but are far to ridged when it comes to its customers needs. Little to no accessories or alterations. No wonder the industry is booming with custom designed caravans. They are however more expensive.
Another inspiring bit of advice for those that are in the market for a great towing vehicle. I see that a lot of Grey Nomads are using Mazda BT50 for towing. We have one but with a little extra. We had Sixwheeler in Toowoomba modify ours to a master piece. 4495Kg GVM with 4500Kg towing. Thats 9000kg GVM for around $70,000. Ours cost around $100,000 but that was with everything you could imagine. You can also get it 4830kg GVM with 3500kg towing. Either way its the best thing we have done. Go any where vehicle with great comfort & safety for less that a Toyota. Its excellent in the Victorian High Country on even the most difficult tracks & the stability when towing is out of this world. No more WDH & no swaying when B Doubles fly past. As stiff as a board. You know what I mean. With a fully loaded set up 7885Kg GCM we have experienced between 20 to 24 litres per 100Km. Not bad at all.
Safe travels everyone.
Welcome to the gang Gunnago Camping, enjoy here and out in the playground.
Interesting first post. I have gone the opposite way getting my rig 'legal'. I just got rid of 'stuff' I didn't/think I needed. So far not missing a thing. The only thing that would be nice but a luxury would be to have water in the 2x95lt tanks but being solo I cope very well with 2x10lt water containers and topping up when needed.
If I am reading you post correctly you MODIFIED your 'standard' off the shelf BT50 ?.
Keep Safe on the roads and out there.
Yes you are correct. My wife is always correcting my spelling & grammar. She is a school teacher.
For us it was not acceptable to travel with out water. We wished to free camp & shower. Thats why we ordered our caravan with 3 water tanks. We wanted to carry that water. We operated several retail stores one being a camping store for some 15 years.
We are big believers in fit for purpose. (Part of consumer law since 2011) If you have to travel with your water tanks empty then is that fit for purpose. In our opinion its not.
Why is it acceptable for a caravan manufacture & the retailer to sell a product that for a lot of consumers is unable to fulfill our expectations. If we take note of some statistics out in the Web far to many travelers are seriously over weight. Is this the fault of the novice caravaner or the manufactures & retailers that should be aware of what's safe & legal. Fit for purpose. If its in the caravan then it should be able to be used.
We started off as novice caravanners & traveled unknowingly over weight. Like any sensible people we made changes to satisfy our requirements. Thats why we had the caravan re rated & the tow tug modified.
We has a set of wheels. a box trailer. bed. cooker. and seats.
Nowadays . It's just the same. apart from being,
Bigger. heavier. More exxy.
They both do\did the same thing.
My first 2 kids were brought up, mobile, on construction sites.
People waste a LOT of money on what is only, Basically.
A box trailer with coupla windows.
One day they might learn hey.
Nowadays. We spend it on going. Seeing places.
Mainly Overseas again.
Rather than just dragging it around with us with an expensive devaluing vehicle.
Thanks Chris.
In the beginning as an industry standard most manufactures tried to sell to the masses. Under 2500Kg Caravans. Towed with Prado's etc. Also 10+ years ago dual cab utes where mostly 2500kg towing max. Its only been in the past few years that uts are now being rated at 3500kg. We thats what they say. It's not really that simple. If you contact most caravan chassis manufactures they will tell you they make chassis to supply to numerous manufactures. The caravan manufacture then fits the compliance plate. They will rate it to what they believe will be the highest market selling point. Not what the actual chassis would take. It's unfortunately up to us to do our homework & stay legal. I do believe that forums are our best supply of information & advice. Can't beat experience.
Hi Gunnago
I reckon that your going to have to get brunswick diesel chev v8 conversion in that vehicle with all the weight . Our combined weight is a tad under 6000kg and we have a ranger . I personally think that we are maxxed out already let alone 7500 + kg.
I wouldn't want to be behind you going up the hill at Toowoomba or the like. I think your asking a lot of a 3.2 litre motor . Especially when it gets hot . Its just my opinion but keep us all posted you might prove me wrong , I hope so.
Every chassis Preston etc. That comes off the line.
HAS TO have it's max capacity stamped on it.
Normally in area of suspension. to blend the two.
Yrs ago. we were sensible.
had a 2 to 2,5 ton van. The large ones.
Patrol. Landcruiser. Troopie, Land Rover, to tow them.
Then you got the idiots. Big vans with the Falcon or Valiant.
Or even worse. Those pull themselves apart, rubber band Holdens.
BUT.. We all NORMALLY. travelled at much Lower road speeds.
A lot of smaller vans too, with the Falcon\Valiant crowd.
Fine in general.
Nowadays. The MFG's and dealers,
Have got these newby's over the last 15\20 yrs. going bigger and bigger.
More and more inside.
WAAAy out of proportion.
I'd say at least 75\80% of larger rigs on the road are oversize. and definitely overweight.
Females have a large proportion of blame for that. The kitchen sink Syndrome.
More. More and bigger. Look what I got. YOU ain't. Just look around.
We had 20. 22ft vans in the '60's\'70;s. Towed mainly with Big Rovers. Zodiacs, Land Rovers.
or small trucks.
Mainly full time travelling workers on construction. Breeding kids as we travelled along. (me = 3 of them)
BUT. We Generally travelled around the 20 to maybe downhill 30 miles an hr.
Often under 10mph uphill in Wales and Scotland.
Nobody bothered............
Today. It's Speed. Speed. Get there faster.
If we were ALL to get paper maps of Australia. and spend 1\2 an hr over a coffee each night.
We could 95% of the time, find an Alternate, OFF main route plot from A to B for the next day.
Better scenery. MUCH less traffic. some towns.
More relaxed all round.
PS. No matter what plating you put on a ute.
It's still a UTE. with a 2\2.5 ton Chassis to match.
Sticking a bit on the end. Does NOT. SAFELY. Increase anything.
Carry more. YEP. but overloads the complete rest of the vehicle.
INCLUDING Engine. Transm, and running gear.
Not in front of one of my vans thank you.
Get rid of all the crap you NEVER use. Go smaller.
and be waaaay more relaxed.
Listen to some of us older vanners here.
Who HAVE "bin there, Dun that" with differing sized vans. Tugs, and contents.
Me, as an example.= 55+ yrs now.
28ft to 12 ft 6in.
Best?. 535 Tandem full height.SINGLE beds.
The last one.
Comfortable. Economical.
Goes everywhere you want. When combined with the 4wd Ute. Tent. Roll out on side, solar panels.
HWS and shower\tut tent.
macka17
You would have to one of the most opinionated forum member on this site. It appears that your way is only best. Everyone is different & everyone has the right to purchase & use what they want or can afford.
You say 55+ but you dish out advice as if you are 90 & experienced everything on offer. Get real.
Lets see a bit of positive reply for a change.
Hey Gunna go.
55+ yrs actually doing it in several country's. (I'm 75)
And Opinionated.
YES. As far as SAFETY for both Ourselves, and the people\property we can hit when things go 'not nice'.
A lot of yrs driving commercial on the road. Hold a lot of memories from accidents.
Self inflicted by people, and to people.
If my Opinions.
can help just one, newcomer or otherwise. From being one of the statistics.
Through realising the difference between.
what is safe.and what is "I'd like".
My job is done.
We'd ALL like to take everything "I might need".
Whether we can afford or not.
The ones that get their heads round the balance.
Are the ones that have a more, relaxed. and Safer lifestyle.
The sizes of vans you see behind Utes alone. Never mind the little Prado's etc.
makes my blood crawl. 98% overweight\size. and Overloaded.
Primarily because, the powers that be.
MFG's. Dealers etc. With MINIMAL LAWS TO CONTROL THEM.
DO NOT inform US properly.
Just what they want you to hear. and hence, Spend more of your money into their pockets.
Thankfully.
The circle is turning. The law is tightening up with what you can. and what you can't.
do. tow. carry.
A few are starting to get aggressive. As they realise they are over. Whatever..
and have sooo much money tied up in something that CAN'T. EVER. Be legal. Safely or otherwise.
Unfortunately.
Look at the plate stating weight's and tow limits.
On vehicles. from 6 to 10 yrs ago.
THEY are the numbers that should be stamped on current veh's.
NOT the imaginary ones they put on there to get you towing bigger. Heavier trailers
IE More money in their pockets.
They're all still. Basically/ the same chassis and running gear.
Engine power is a long way down the track as far as towing concerned.
Grip on road, and gearing come in a long way further up the ladder.
That's why I write these posts.
YOU don't like.
SO be it. No skin off my nose. I couldn't give a shoot.
You and others of your opinion. can all go elsewhere.
Just don't read my posts and we'll both be happy hey.
Safety is the most important. EVERYTHING else comes second.
Byeee.
-- Edited by macka17 on Saturday 9th of September 2017 07:43:01 PM
Thanks for your post, very informative, Before I contact Jason, I was wondering if you had to do anything to your van to get the upgrade. I'm not far from Shep where it looks like Jason is based and have a Silverline OB 21.65.3 towed by a 2014 BT50. By law and the weights listed on the van I can only put an extra 268Kg in the van after the water tanks are filled. Would love a little bit extra allowance to cope with the Lovely's shoes. Hope the haters go easy on me. Thanks, Peter.