I am a newbie and this is my first post. Some real-life experience on my wds issue would be great.
We have purchased a Supreme Executive van that has an ATM of 2895kg It is being towed by a 70 series Landcruiser utility.
Assuming we load the van to about 2800kg and load so the ball weight is about 10% we get a ball weight (TBM) of 280kg.
Hayman Reese wds medium hitch goes to 275kg TBM, the heavy duty starts at TBM of 275kg
Initial advice is go for the heavy wds due to rating, warranty legal issues etc.
Other advice says the heavy bars will be too hard/stiff and they are not effective until the TBM is a bit higher. Suggestion has been to load so that TBM is 8 or 9% of ATM giving around 250-260kg and use the medium bars. They have tolerance over 275kg and will be working effectively at 250-260kg.
Would have been a lot easier if Hayman Reese ratings overlapped on their bars.
Hope all of the above makes sense.
Roving-Dutchy said
04:28 PM Aug 8, 2017
Forget about the Hayman Reese and get a Anderson Hitch, no noise, sway control built in, no unhitching on rough roads and no unhitching when reversing or travelling over sharp culverts and far lighter overall.
Cheers
David
mullpadd said
04:42 PM Aug 8, 2017
Thanks David, Will check them out. Cheers Tony
SouthernComfort said
05:01 PM Aug 8, 2017
The structures of modern 'vans vary a lot, so the old maxim of calculating ball weight at 10% of ATM is only a very rough guide and often overestimated. Although many European vans have lower ball weights, so do many AU builds these days. My 2017 semi off-roader has a HD galv steel box chassis with a Tare Weight of 1823 and ATM of 2130kg. The ball weight is only 134kg at Tare i.e. 7.4% which translates to approx 158kg on ATM. I'm not suggesting yours will be balanced the same as mine, just that it's worth measuring the ball weight to know what you're dealing with. The weights will also be displayed on your compliance plate e.g. Tare, ATM, GTM, Payload & Ball Weight (Mass), but bear in mind the "plated" Ball Weight would have been measured at Tare. I use a 270kg WDH allowing beefy margin and it's fine.
mullpadd said
05:19 PM Aug 8, 2017
That's interesting Tony, our van has a tare of 2495 and a ball weight of 104 (as advertised at the caravan show) which is about 4%. We have not picked our van up yet so will check that. If we go for 8% TBM at full ATM that makes it 230kg or well within the range of the HR medium wds.
Probably cannot make a decision until we see how the water tanks are positioned and the effect on TBM when full.
Lot to think about. Am going to check out the Anderson hitch before deciding.
Dougwe said
05:44 PM Aug 8, 2017
Welcome to the gang mullpad, enjoy here and out in the playground.
I went a slightly different way again. I put an extra leaf each side rear springs, raising the rear 50mm. Once I hook up my aluminium teepee of 2680kg and 230kg loaded on ball everything is nice and level over the combined 13mts.
All travelles nice without any wobbles too at around 90-95kph max. The rig purs along at 93kmh on open roads.
I make sure ALL weights are under listed even if only just.
Keep Safe on the roads and out there.
mullpadd said
06:11 PM Aug 8, 2017
Thanks for the welcome and feedback Doug, An extra leaf is a good option. Did it once before on the farm ute. Cheers Tony
mezza56 said
06:52 PM Aug 8, 2017
Hi Mullpad
Our van loaded last trip was approx 3200 towball weight was 260. I have up until recently used the HD std WDH on our px ranger as it sagged a bit with the van hitched.
6 mths back we had h/d suspension fitted ( 600 kg constant rating)
I drove up to top of Qld and back to vic recently no hitch , and it performed better than with WDH , no sway , nothing and sat perfectly level with a heap of extra weight on top and in the box of the ute.
I have read on the forum people say that suspension doesn't solve the issue that a WDH does . Well my steering was as good if not better than with the hitch .
Take it for what its worth I have experienced both and I say it does to all the nay sayers
iana said
06:56 PM Aug 8, 2017
Hi mullpadd, same as Dougwe, no WDH, no problems towing the van so far. Just up graded rear springs. I think last time I did a tow ball weight check it was a bout 6%. Depends on how I fill the tanks. Yeah and I tow at exactly 90kph.
Radar said
07:41 PM Aug 8, 2017
I have both types of bars, round ones and those other ones, there sitting on the shelve in the garage, must find a believer to flog them to.
Yes, I am very happy with my out fit with out using load distribution bars, sadly I don't have shares in the companies that sell these bars. Darn.
My unwanted advice is set your tow vehicle up to TOW first and foremost, second take time to load your caravan carefully.
-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 8th of August 2017 07:43:35 PM
mullpadd said
07:49 PM Aug 8, 2017
Thanks mezza56 and iana and the previous replies,
Current thinking is that maybe add an extra leaf, pickup the van without wdh, take it easy and see how it goes. Give myself time to get used to van and loading and maybe take more time to look at Anderson hitch if needed.
Great site and terrific help. Really appreciate it.
Tony
mullpadd said
07:56 PM Aug 8, 2017
Thanks Radar, That is straightforward advice and to me makes a lot of sense. I am leaning towards that approach.
Lancelot Link said
12:03 AM Aug 9, 2017
Go with the vehicle makers recommendations.
mullpadd said
09:49 AM Aug 9, 2017
Thanks Lancelot, You are up late! Toyota do sell a wds that looks similar to the HR hitches. Hard to find anyone at dealers that knows anything about them. Some even surprised they have them.
PeterD said
02:52 PM Aug 9, 2017
mullpadd wrote:We have purchased a Supreme Executive van that has an ATM of 2895kg It is being towed by a 70 series Landcruiser utility.
Assuming we load the van to about 2800kg and load so the ball weight is about 10% we get a ball weight (TBM) of 280kg.
Assume nothing. Weigh it to be sure. I think you will find that Supreme vans are a little light on the ball weight and you may not be able to get anywhere near 10% of the vans weight on the ball. What is the ball weight figure on the compliance plate..
The bar ratings of HR hitches are based on complete weight restoration on the tugs front wheels. The latest recommendations from the switched on people is only to restore around 40 - 60% or the weight. This means that the bars are capable of handling higher ball weights so you will be able to use the smaller capacity bars. The old instructions (which probably still come with the bars) recommends that when the bars are tensioned the wheel arch heights should exhibit the same drop in height from when the vehicle is unhitched. When you tension the bars the front wheel height with the vrs tensioned should be a little higher than the unhitched height.
As for all the advice about beefing up the rear suspension and not using WDH, mu information is that Toyota say that a load level hitch is required. What does the vehicle handbook say? You should 0ny need up-rated suspension if you are going to overload the rear suspension. In addition, if your tug is going to be heavily loaded then you are likely to overload the rear axle if WDH does not shift some of the ball loading to the front axle.
Phillipn said
03:56 PM Aug 9, 2017
If you want to check out the Andersen hitch go into Google Images and type in " Andersen hitch faults". The photos tell the story.
That is changed my mind from getting an Andersen hitch.
mullpadd said
04:38 PM Aug 9, 2017
Thanks Peter,
We still have to pick up the van so do not know what is on the compliance plate apart from what salespeople/brochures advised.
I guess it is get the van, get the exact figures, load tug and van sparingly, check that it looks OK and then get everything weighed. That's plan A at this stage.
mullpadd said
04:41 PM Aug 9, 2017
Hi Phillip,
Pictures look frightening however the positives about Andersen keep coming. Those chassis pictures could also occur with badly setup HR hitches also I suspect. Until we know why the Andersen caused that damage the jury is still out. Scary but!
SouthernComfort said
05:50 PM Aug 9, 2017
mullpadd wrote:
Thanks Peter,
We still have to pick up the van so do not know what is on the compliance plate apart from what salespeople/brochures advised.
I guess it is get the van, get the exact figures, load tug and van sparingly, check that it looks OK and then get everything weighed. That's plan A at this stage.
That's the way to go. Ignore the brochures and the salespeople, get the van, check the plate (again, remember the plated ball weight is at Tare, so how much you load into the van and how you distribute your gear inside the van, will change it). Load on or forward of van axle, too heavy at rear upsets everything. A little heavier on the ball is ok so long as you regard the tug's specs. When all done, check the real ball weight. Also remember that the ball weight must be counted in as part of the tug's GVM rating. If you are concerned about sway, the WDH itself will have no effect on controlling it. If you have ESC on the van, that will take care of sway. If not, anti-sway bars are available as a separate fitment that can be added to most WDH set-up's.
mullpadd said
10:19 AM Aug 10, 2017
Thanks Tony,
Will keep everyone posted in about three weeks after we pick up the van and make a few decisions on wdh, etc.
Cheers
Tony
iana said
10:35 AM Aug 10, 2017
mullpadd, that would be good. In the mean time, put a bit of though into the trailer plugs, and the set up between your tow vehicle and the van. I have the Narva 12 pin plugs and sockets, and if I could have my time again, I would have chosen another system.
SouthernComfort said
10:59 AM Aug 10, 2017
No worries Tony. The whole weights thing is a bit of a minefield and even the clearest directions can seem ambiguous, leaves you scratching your head sometimes! Same goes for well intentioned guidance (including mine) on forums like this. If in real doubt about any of it, the best default is the manufacturer written specifications for both tug and 'van, and then other authoritative publications.
mullpadd said
06:41 PM Sep 24, 2017
Back again! Decided on the Anderson wdh and after two short trips we are very happy with it. Easy to use and adjust and appears to do the job. Van (Supreme) was picked up in early September and we are delighted with it. Everything was well presented, working and according to specs. Handover training was comprehensive and efficient.
On the Anderson... the youtube videos and doco make the adjustment of the triangle plate look harder than it is so if considering the Anderson then ignore that as a consideration as there are easier ways.
Anyway... on the way at last and this process has been a great help to us.
Delta18 said
02:33 PM Sep 26, 2017
mullpadd wrote:
Back again! Decided on the Anderson wdh and after two short trips we are very happy with it. Easy to use and adjust and appears to do the job. Van (Supreme) was picked up in early September and we are delighted with it. Everything was well presented, working and according to specs. Handover training was comprehensive and efficient.
On the Anderson... the youtube videos and doco make the adjustment of the triangle plate look harder than it is so if considering the Anderson then ignore that as a consideration as there are easier ways.
Anyway... on the way at last and this process has been a great help to us.
I opted for an Andersen Hitch for our new Silverline last year, so glad I did. I've had HR hitches but would never go back to them after the Andersen. Perfect control of adjustment with the bonus of sway dampening included. The lack of any noise is also a huge bonus.
Hi,
I am a newbie and this is my first post. Some real-life experience on my wds issue would be great.
We have purchased a Supreme Executive van that has an ATM of 2895kg It is being towed by a 70 series Landcruiser utility.
Assuming we load the van to about 2800kg and load so the ball weight is about 10% we get a ball weight (TBM) of 280kg.
Hayman Reese wds medium hitch goes to 275kg TBM, the heavy duty starts at TBM of 275kg
Initial advice is go for the heavy wds due to rating, warranty legal issues etc.
Other advice says the heavy bars will be too hard/stiff and they are not effective until the TBM is a bit higher. Suggestion has been to load so that TBM is 8 or 9% of ATM giving around 250-260kg and use the medium bars. They have tolerance over 275kg and will be working effectively at 250-260kg.
Would have been a lot easier if Hayman Reese ratings overlapped on their bars.
Hope all of the above makes sense.
Cheers
David
Probably cannot make a decision until we see how the water tanks are positioned and the effect on TBM when full.
Lot to think about. Am going to check out the Anderson hitch before deciding.
Welcome to the gang mullpad, enjoy here and out in the playground.
I went a slightly different way again. I put an extra leaf each side rear springs, raising the rear 50mm. Once I hook up my aluminium teepee of 2680kg and 230kg loaded on ball everything is nice and level over the combined 13mts.
All travelles nice without any wobbles too at around 90-95kph max. The rig purs along at 93kmh on open roads.
I make sure ALL weights are under listed even if only just.
Keep Safe on the roads and out there.
Hi Mullpad
Our van loaded last trip was approx 3200 towball weight was 260. I have up until recently used the HD std WDH on our px ranger as it sagged a bit with the van hitched.
6 mths back we had h/d suspension fitted ( 600 kg constant rating)
I drove up to top of Qld and back to vic recently no hitch , and it performed better than with WDH , no sway , nothing and sat perfectly level with a heap of extra weight on top and in the box of the ute.
I have read on the forum people say that suspension doesn't solve the issue that a WDH does . Well my steering was as good if not better than with the hitch .
Take it for what its worth I have experienced both and I say it does to all the nay sayers
I have both types of bars, round ones and those other ones, there sitting on the shelve in the garage, must find a believer to flog them to.
Yes, I am very happy with my out fit with out using load distribution bars, sadly I don't have shares in the companies that sell these bars. Darn.
My unwanted advice is set your tow vehicle up to TOW first and foremost, second take time to load your caravan carefully.
-- Edited by Radar on Tuesday 8th of August 2017 07:43:35 PM
Current thinking is that maybe add an extra leaf, pickup the van without wdh, take it easy and see how it goes. Give myself time to get used to van and loading and maybe take more time to look at Anderson hitch if needed.
Great site and terrific help. Really appreciate it.
Tony
Thanks Radar, That is straightforward advice and to me makes a lot of sense. I am leaning towards that approach.
Assume nothing. Weigh it to be sure. I think you will find that Supreme vans are a little light on the ball weight and you may not be able to get anywhere near 10% of the vans weight on the ball. What is the ball weight figure on the compliance plate..
The bar ratings of HR hitches are based on complete weight restoration on the tugs front wheels. The latest recommendations from the switched on people is only to restore around 40 - 60% or the weight. This means that the bars are capable of handling higher ball weights so you will be able to use the smaller capacity bars. The old instructions (which probably still come with the bars) recommends that when the bars are tensioned the wheel arch heights should exhibit the same drop in height from when the vehicle is unhitched. When you tension the bars the front wheel height with the vrs tensioned should be a little higher than the unhitched height.
As for all the advice about beefing up the rear suspension and not using WDH, mu information is that Toyota say that a load level hitch is required. What does the vehicle handbook say? You should 0ny need up-rated suspension if you are going to overload the rear suspension. In addition, if your tug is going to be heavily loaded then you are likely to overload the rear axle if WDH does not shift some of the ball loading to the front axle.
If you want to check out the Andersen hitch go into Google Images and type in " Andersen hitch faults". The photos tell the story.
That is changed my mind from getting an Andersen hitch.
Thanks Peter,
We still have to pick up the van so do not know what is on the compliance plate apart from what salespeople/brochures advised.
I guess it is get the van, get the exact figures, load tug and van sparingly, check that it looks OK and then get everything weighed. That's plan A at this stage.
Hi Phillip,
Pictures look frightening however the positives about Andersen keep coming. Those chassis pictures could also occur with badly setup HR hitches also I suspect. Until we know why the Andersen caused that damage the jury is still out. Scary but!
That's the way to go. Ignore the brochures and the salespeople, get the van, check the plate (again, remember the plated ball weight is at Tare, so how much you load into the van and how you distribute your gear inside the van, will change it). Load on or forward of van axle, too heavy at rear upsets everything. A little heavier on the ball is ok so long as you regard the tug's specs. When all done, check the real ball weight. Also remember that the ball weight must be counted in as part of the tug's GVM rating. If you are concerned about sway, the WDH itself will have no effect on controlling it. If you have ESC on the van, that will take care of sway. If not, anti-sway bars are available as a separate fitment that can be added to most WDH set-up's.
Will keep everyone posted in about three weeks after we pick up the van and make a few decisions on wdh, etc.
Cheers
Tony
On the Anderson... the youtube videos and doco make the adjustment of the triangle plate look harder than it is so if considering the Anderson then ignore that as a consideration as there are easier ways.
Anyway... on the way at last and this process has been a great help to us.
I opted for an Andersen Hitch for our new Silverline last year, so glad I did. I've had HR hitches but would never go back to them after the Andersen. Perfect control of adjustment with the bonus of sway dampening included. The lack of any noise is also a huge bonus.