Who can Honestly say they have not seen all sorts of vehicles, be it Trucks, cars, Caravans, Tugs illegally modified and not adhering to ADR's
For example the Qld ADR's re Lightbars.
It says they cannot be mounted on top of Bullbars. They must also not be visible from the Driver's seat.
Just one of the instances about ADR's and Lightbars.
Just drive down any main highway in Queensland and look how may lightbars you see mounted on top of the Bullbar.
ADR's are hardly policed in Australia both by manufacturers and the Public.
The Police and the Govt. are more interested in Revenue raising than safety. Drive 1 Kph. over and you are pinged, yet the ADR's allow for speedos that are not accurate enough to measure in 1Kph increments.
End of Rant.
-- Edited by Yuglamron on Wednesday 5th of July 2017 08:35:33 AM
RustyD said
03:33 PM Jul 4, 2017
Very, very informative item. Which is why heavy vans need big heavy tugs (RAMs, F350 etc.).
George Ladas said
05:29 PM Jul 4, 2017
Unbelievable !!!!! Why do so many people want to complicate things ? Caravanning is designed to getaway from stress, go on a holiday and relax. Not read confusing articles that will give you nothing but worry.
Caravanbuyersguide, talks about what is done in germany and UK, and opinion - just not relevant.
People,,, just do what the law tells you to do, do what has been approved for your country and your conditions.
Firstly, All towing vehicles have a max towing limit, its in your manual or the manufacturer has it, if you dont know - find out before you start towing ! Next ensure the ATM - the max weight that has been approved for the van to weigh ( and will be plated so ), does not exceed what the car can do, easy. Ensure you have all required braking systems, brake controller, breakaway monitor for vans 2000kg GVM, etc,
and check requirement for each state as YES they do differ.
Australian Law by the way allows for a vehicle to tow up to 1.5 times its weight as long as the correct braking systems are in place and ATM is within car's limit. Thats ADR - Australian Design Rules, can be found readily on RMS website. Been approved, been passed by engineers to be safe by smarter people than me and probably you. End of story, no argueing, thats all fact. So stop stressing, marry up the right van with the right car ( like any good marriage ) and have a good time.
George
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:30:51 PM
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:32:22 PM
the rocket said
06:29 PM Jul 4, 2017
George Ladas wrote:
Unbelievable !!!!! Why do so many people want to complicate things ? Caravanning is designed to getaway from stress, go on a holiday and relax. Not read confusing articles that will give you nothing but worry.
Caravanbuyersguide, talks about what is done in germany and UK, and opinion - just not relevant.
People,,, just do what the law tells you to do, do what has been approved for your country and your conditions.
Firstly, All towing vehicles have a max towing limit, its in your manual or the manufacturer has it, if you dont know - find out before you start towing ! Next ensure the ATM - the max weight that has been approved for the van to weigh ( and will be plated so ), does not exceed what the car can do, easy. Ensure you have all required braking systems, brake controller, breakaway monitor for vans 2000kg GVM, etc,
and check requirement for each state as YES they do differ.
Australian Law by the way allows for a vehicle to tow up to 1.5 times its weight as long as the correct braking systems are in place and ATM is within car's limit. Thats ADR - Australian Design Rules, can be found readily on RMS website. Been approved, been passed by engineers to be safe by smarter people than me and probably you. End of story, no argueing, thats all fact. So stop stressing, marry up the right van with the right car ( like any good marriage ) and have a good time.
George
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:30:51 PM
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:32:22 PM
Sorry this is on on topic but wanted to welcome george ladas to our group. Enjoy
macka17 said
06:31 PM Jul 4, 2017
And George.
Only dicks or people that have absolutely NO experience in towing
Would do such a thing.
Regardless of what some bits of paper say.
Other countries are\have changed rules to give safety to ALL.
Through already obtained experiences,
of much more vehicles on their roads than we could ever have.
This country with it's idiotic politicians.
Is JUST, Starting to get into gear.
Read some of the posts on here. and other towing forums.
written mainly by people WITH experience at doing it (towing)
PS.
IF you bother to read the weights plates on most tugs and tows.
They MAY say 3.5ton tow. While standing in dealers yard.
But.
When you boil it down to weights added. Weight detracted,
because of weights added.
Then adding towbar weights, Which also detract from towing weight alone.
Then you and the missus. Forget the dog.
Most can't even fill their tanks.
With some illegal Before they even hitch up.
It's too convoluted.
Mainly caused by dealers wanting to sell you their avail vehicles.
and van builders get more money for bigger vans.
With NO regard for buyers safety or well being.
Once you've left their driveways.
Basically. a tug should have as near a min of 1\2 ton
more. BASIC weight on it's tyres
Than anything it's towing.
And that's not even getting into overhangs. Tail wagging. Nose down.
HR Hitches etc. etc etc.
SAFETY is paramount with paper figures a loooong way back in the real world mate.
Read a little more before putting your foot in it hey mate.
montie said
06:44 PM Jul 4, 2017
George Ladas wrote:
Unbelievable !!!!! Why do so many people want to complicate things ? Caravanning is designed to getaway from stress, go on a holiday and relax. Not read confusing articles that will give you nothing but worry.
Caravanbuyersguide, talks about what is done in germany and UK, and opinion - just not relevant.
People,,, just do what the law tells you to do, do what has been approved for your country and your conditions.
Firstly, All towing vehicles have a max towing limit, its in your manual or the manufacturer has it, if you dont know - find out before you start towing ! Next ensure the ATM - the max weight that has been approved for the van to weigh ( and will be plated so ), does not exceed what the car can do, easy. Ensure you have all required braking systems, brake controller, breakaway monitor for vans 2000kg GVM, etc,
and check requirement for each state as YES they do differ.
Australian Law by the way allows for a vehicle to tow up to 1.5 times its weight as long as the correct braking systems are in place and ATM is within car's limit. Thats ADR - Australian Design Rules, can be found readily on RMS website. Been approved, been passed by engineers to be safe by smarter people than me and probably you. End of story, no argueing, thats all fact. So stop stressing, marry up the right van with the right car ( like any good marriage ) and have a good time.
George
Just because it's legal doesn't make it safe George.
No point in being the most legally correct guy in the graveyard!
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:30:51 PM
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:32:22 PM
George Ladas said
09:14 PM Jul 4, 2017
Hi Macka,
Well lets see now, no experience ? In my 27 years of being involved in the industry, as a dealer, in association with many many manufacturers, chassis manufacturers and their engineers, RMS management including technical service specialists, advisory to the associated bodies of the industry including the CIA and the CCIA, supervisors of the fair trade commission, having towed approx 3,500 caravans, for rego inspections, deliveries, product testing, pick ups from factories and delivered all up and down the coast, I believe I do have more experience than most.
No not all dealers are the same, dont paint everyone with the same brush, I for one always made sure customer safety was first priority. It is now within the industry code that a dealers licence is subject to him conforming with due care regulations to ensure vans are being towed by the correct tow vehicle and the required equipment is fitted and a hand over procedure whereby all facets of the van are thoroughly explained including tow weights and limits.
Weights are set by the industry. A 1/2 ton capacity is a nice figure Macka but thats not what is statutory. A 300kg payload for single axle vans and 400 kg payload for bogie axle is the minimum requirement set by the Caravan Industry Association. Manufacturers must adhere to this requirement, if the public want it changed we need to advocate that to government. They make the rules, not the manufacturers or the dealers. Higher payloads can be requested when ordering your new van and is now quite common practice in particular with off road vans where extra or larger and heavier fittings like extra water tanks are fitted.
So , yes Macka I certainly do know what I am talking about, my foot is not in my mouth, both are actually firmly planted on the ground.
After so many years in the industry I simply want to give back some advise and experience I've gained on the way and help people enjoy this great way of life.
I am here to advise correctly or to the best of my knowledge, to anyone who wants to listen, provide unbiased, un opinionated, facts.
And if I cant answer something, I will do my best to get the right answer for you.
Only here to help, Happy Vanning all.
George
George Ladas said
09:32 PM Jul 4, 2017
Hi Montie,
Re your comment,
"Just because it's legal doesn't make it safe George.
No point in being the most legally correct guy in the graveyard!"
Well Montie, that might sound good but,,,
Thats why things are legal, because they have been tested to be safe, thats why we have limits on towing weights, and car towing limits, Braking requirements, diameters of safety chains and d shackles, etc, etc. Its unfortunately when these things are not adhered to or people simply dont understand what is required, when things go wrong and can have tragic results like accidents and deaths. Safety laws are made to keep you out of the grave. I'm sure government regulators, manufacturers and dealers want you as safe as possible so you can keep enjoying your caravanning. Where would we be without you.
Happy Vanning All,
George
The Belmont Bear said
08:36 AM Jul 5, 2017
Welcome George it's refreshing to find someone else who regards being able to comply with the current laws as being your most important starting point. There seems to be lots of personal opinions on this topic which at times are not only confusing but often sold as being part of the current regulations or something that is going to be introduced in the future.. I totally agree Macca if you are over the allowable weights then it's illegal and you shouldn't be on the road - your point about needing a tug to be 500kg heavier than the van probably makes sense but at this stage it is an opinion not the law.
SouthernComfort said
09:10 AM Jul 5, 2017
Hope you'll stick around in here George. To me, knowledge and experience is far more useful. They outweigh opinion and competitive semantics any day!
macka17 said
10:49 AM Jul 5, 2017
As long as he giving.
SAFE. SENSIBLE. advice.
Not paper figures.
He certainly sounds like a caravan 'salesman"
what Suits us.
gives us the most sales is obviously the right law hey.
George.
I've been towing vans of all sizes. for over 50 yrs in several country's.
so I "know" just a little too.
Personally. after seeing accidents. and why.
I'll. Stick with the safety rules are the better rools ok.
Paper rools are Gutless. Well greased palmed Political,
to appease others.
NOBODY.
With anything between his ears.
Would tow a thing heavier than his tug, in any sort of traffic.
Regardless of engine power.
and braking ability.
The biggest\Heaviest one, will always win.
When something Whoopsy happens.
I'v spent time on cranes too.
Picking up some of the "whoopsy" bits.
AND the body's there.
SAFETY overides ALL laws. Right or wrong.
RustyD said
11:40 AM Jul 5, 2017
Don't think the reference "complicates" things. It's basically common sense. Don't tow heavier that your fully loaded tug and don't load you tug beyond it's specifications. I've always used the 1:1 (the smaller ratio is actually new to me). I tow trailer behind trikes & bikes and the 1:1 rule is a must there.
Towing a 6x4 trailer made from an old ute, full of wet sand and weighing way beyond "no reg" rules, behind the old 1951 Vanguard was an experience.
macka17 said
02:10 PM Jul 5, 2017
The rools are a little like a bible.
Everybody reads something different in the same words. To suit themselves.
You'll find, that the ones on here and elsewhere. that nay say to what we saying. Are basically the ones that ARE living by the paper rools and KNOW.But don't want to admit to it
By LAW YES. MAYBE.
SAFETY and peace of mind. Hmmmm. Different story.
Try to keep around 300kg or more weight in tug over van. If you can. BUT never less or equal.
Some of us were advocating the variations in the two vehicles 40 odd yrs ago here. We got Nay. Sayed then too.
Slowly. People are starting to realise. Safety DOES come first. and MOST veh's ARE over rated. if you work by the written figures on them.
Nobody shows them, The buyers. what the addition and subtraction of figures does to the totals in real life.
UNTIL AFTER they are driving them. With $$'S safely tucked away in back pocket.
That's where these "dealers" have been virtually criminal for yrs.
That van weighs this. This vehicle I'm selling you CAN tow THIS figure. LOOK Says so here. They don't explain that adding weight. and drawbar weights. REDUCE the allowable figures
The laws he's talking about. Are only Partly (to suit,) explained to the buyers
THEY. Dealers and MFG's. ONLY tell you what YOU want to hear. to get your dollars NOT... The whole story..
did you George. EVERY time????.
We knew 40odd yrs ago. You MUST have too.
Most 4wd's and Utes. even new ones.(Mainly the 4wd's) When loaded to their plated capacity with drawbar weight at max. Mostly. Can not even fill their fuel tanks. Never mind stick anything behind it. YOU LOT KNEW THAT... (Utes are not safe with more than around 2ish ton on arse.)
Or are you denying it. The figures have always been there.
Only HONEST Van MFG I knew was the Original Roadstar. He'd build van to you. WITH all additions. THEN put it over their ticketed scales. and do the plate for you. (I bought 3 plus a Compass) One second hand. I don't KNOW of any others that did.
There was Barry.
But his vans were specialist off roaders only.
Different class of thing altogether.
You wouldn't insult them with one of our tugs.
(Phoenix)
-- Edited by macka17 on Wednesday 5th of July 2017 02:15:10 PM
This article makes an interesting read for Tug and Van Owners.
http://caravanbuyersguide.com.au/tow-vehicle-caravan-weight/
Adendum.
After some mud slinging about this post.
Who can Honestly say they have not seen all sorts of vehicles, be it Trucks, cars, Caravans, Tugs illegally modified and not adhering to ADR's
For example the Qld ADR's re Lightbars.
It says they cannot be mounted on top of Bullbars. They must also not be visible from the Driver's seat.
Just one of the instances about ADR's and Lightbars.
Just drive down any main highway in Queensland and look how may lightbars you see mounted on top of the Bullbar.
ADR's are hardly policed in Australia both by manufacturers and the Public.
The Police and the Govt. are more interested in Revenue raising than safety. Drive 1 Kph. over and you are pinged, yet the ADR's allow for speedos that are not accurate enough to measure in 1Kph increments.
End of Rant.
-- Edited by Yuglamron on Wednesday 5th of July 2017 08:35:33 AM
Unbelievable !!!!!
Why do so many people want to complicate things ?
Caravanning is designed to getaway from stress, go on a holiday and relax.
Not read confusing articles that will give you nothing but worry.
Caravanbuyersguide, talks about what is done in germany and UK, and opinion - just not relevant.
People,,, just do what the law tells you to do, do what has been approved for your country and your conditions.
Firstly, All towing vehicles have a max towing limit, its in your manual or the manufacturer has it, if you dont know - find out before you start towing !
Next ensure the ATM - the max weight that has been approved for the van to weigh ( and will be plated so ), does not exceed what the car can do, easy.
Ensure you have all required braking systems, brake controller, breakaway monitor for vans 2000kg GVM, etc,
and check requirement for each state as YES they do differ.
Australian Law by the way allows for a vehicle to tow up to 1.5 times its weight as long as the correct braking systems are in place and ATM is within car's limit.
Thats ADR - Australian Design Rules, can be found readily on RMS website.
Been approved, been passed by engineers to be safe by smarter people than me and probably you.
End of story, no argueing, thats all fact.
So stop stressing, marry up the right van with the right car ( like any good marriage ) and have a good time.
George
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:30:51 PM
-- Edited by George Ladas on Tuesday 4th of July 2017 05:32:22 PM
Sorry this is on on topic but wanted to welcome george ladas to our group. Enjoy
Only dicks or people that have absolutely NO experience in towing
Would do such a thing.
Regardless of what some bits of paper say.
Other countries are\have changed rules to give safety to ALL.
Through already obtained experiences,
of much more vehicles on their roads than we could ever have.
This country with it's idiotic politicians.
Is JUST, Starting to get into gear.
Read some of the posts on here. and other towing forums.
written mainly by people WITH experience at doing it (towing)
PS.
IF you bother to read the weights plates on most tugs and tows.
They MAY say 3.5ton tow. While standing in dealers yard.
But.
When you boil it down to weights added. Weight detracted,
because of weights added.
Then adding towbar weights, Which also detract from towing weight alone.
Then you and the missus. Forget the dog.
Most can't even fill their tanks.
With some illegal Before they even hitch up.
It's too convoluted.
Mainly caused by dealers wanting to sell you their avail vehicles.
and van builders get more money for bigger vans.
With NO regard for buyers safety or well being.
Once you've left their driveways.
Basically. a tug should have as near a min of 1\2 ton
more. BASIC weight on it's tyres
Than anything it's towing.
And that's not even getting into overhangs. Tail wagging. Nose down.
HR Hitches etc. etc etc.
SAFETY is paramount with paper figures a loooong way back in the real world mate.
Read a little more before putting your foot in it hey mate.
Hi Macka,
Well lets see now, no experience ? In my 27 years of being involved in the industry, as a dealer, in association with many many manufacturers, chassis manufacturers and their engineers, RMS management including technical service specialists, advisory to the associated bodies of the industry including the CIA and the CCIA, supervisors of the fair trade commission, having towed approx 3,500 caravans, for rego inspections, deliveries, product testing, pick ups from factories and delivered all up and down the coast, I believe I do have more experience than most.
No not all dealers are the same, dont paint everyone with the same brush, I for one always made sure customer safety was first priority. It is now within the industry code that a dealers licence is subject to him conforming with due care regulations to ensure vans are being towed by the correct tow vehicle and the required equipment is fitted and a hand over procedure whereby all facets of the van are thoroughly explained including tow weights and limits.
Weights are set by the industry. A 1/2 ton capacity is a nice figure Macka but thats not what is statutory. A 300kg payload for single axle vans and 400 kg payload for bogie axle is the minimum requirement set by the Caravan Industry Association. Manufacturers must adhere to this requirement, if the public want it changed we need to advocate that to government. They make the rules, not the manufacturers or the dealers. Higher payloads can be requested when ordering your new van and is now quite common practice in particular with off road vans where extra or larger and heavier fittings like extra water tanks are fitted.
So , yes Macka I certainly do know what I am talking about, my foot is not in my mouth, both are actually firmly planted on the ground.
After so many years in the industry I simply want to give back some advise and experience I've gained on the way and help people enjoy this great way of life.
I am here to advise correctly or to the best of my knowledge, to anyone who wants to listen, provide unbiased, un opinionated, facts.
And if I cant answer something, I will do my best to get the right answer for you.
Only here to help, Happy Vanning all.
George
Hi Montie,
Re your comment,
"Just because it's legal doesn't make it safe George.
No point in being the most legally correct guy in the graveyard!"
Well Montie, that might sound good but,,,
Thats why things are legal, because they have been tested to be safe, thats why we have limits on towing weights, and car towing limits, Braking requirements, diameters of safety chains and d shackles, etc, etc. Its unfortunately when these things are not adhered to or people simply dont understand what is required, when things go wrong and can have tragic results like accidents and deaths. Safety laws are made to keep you out of the grave. I'm sure government regulators, manufacturers and dealers want you as safe as possible so you can keep enjoying your caravanning. Where would we be without you.
Happy Vanning All,
George
SAFE. SENSIBLE. advice.
Not paper figures.
He certainly sounds like a caravan 'salesman"
what Suits us.
gives us the most sales is obviously the right law hey.
George.
I've been towing vans of all sizes. for over 50 yrs in several country's.
so I "know" just a little too.
Personally. after seeing accidents. and why.
I'll. Stick with the safety rules are the better rools ok.
Paper rools are Gutless. Well greased palmed Political,
to appease others.
NOBODY.
With anything between his ears.
Would tow a thing heavier than his tug, in any sort of traffic.
Regardless of engine power.
and braking ability.
The biggest\Heaviest one, will always win.
When something Whoopsy happens.
I'v spent time on cranes too.
Picking up some of the "whoopsy" bits.
AND the body's there.
SAFETY overides ALL laws. Right or wrong.
Towing a 6x4 trailer made from an old ute, full of wet sand and weighing way beyond "no reg" rules, behind the old 1951 Vanguard was an experience.
The rools are a little like a bible.
Everybody reads something different in the same words.
To suit themselves.
You'll find, that the ones on here and elsewhere.
that nay say to what we saying.
Are basically the ones that ARE living by the paper rools
and KNOW.But don't want to admit to it
By LAW YES. MAYBE.
SAFETY and peace of mind. Hmmmm.
Different story.
Try to keep around 300kg or more weight in tug over van.
If you can. BUT never less or equal.
Some of us were advocating the variations in the two vehicles 40 odd yrs ago here.
We got Nay. Sayed then too.
Slowly. People are starting to realise.
Safety DOES come first. and MOST veh's ARE over rated.
if you work by the written figures on them.
Nobody shows them, The buyers.
what the addition and subtraction of figures does to the totals in real life.
UNTIL AFTER they are driving them. With $$'S safely tucked away in back pocket.
That's where these "dealers" have been virtually criminal for yrs.
That van weighs this.
This vehicle I'm selling you CAN tow THIS figure.
LOOK Says so here.
They don't explain that adding weight. and drawbar weights.
REDUCE the allowable figures
The laws he's talking about. Are only Partly (to suit,) explained
to the buyers
THEY. Dealers and MFG's.
ONLY tell you what YOU want to hear.
to get your dollars
NOT... The whole story..
did you George. EVERY time????.
We knew 40odd yrs ago. You MUST have too.
Most 4wd's and Utes. even new ones.(Mainly the 4wd's)
When loaded to their plated capacity with drawbar weight at max.
Mostly.
Can not even fill their fuel tanks. Never mind stick anything behind it.
YOU LOT KNEW THAT...
(Utes are not safe with more than around 2ish ton on arse.)
Or are you denying it. The figures have always been there.
Only HONEST Van MFG I knew was the Original Roadstar.
He'd build van to you. WITH all additions.
THEN put it over their ticketed scales.
and do the plate for you. (I bought 3 plus a Compass)
One second hand.
I don't KNOW of any others that did.
There was Barry.
But his vans were specialist off roaders only.
Different class of thing altogether.
You wouldn't insult them with one of our tugs.
(Phoenix)
-- Edited by macka17 on Wednesday 5th of July 2017 02:15:10 PM