A bit astonished about what I am reading with the British Fleet Air Arm during ww2.
iana said
05:29 AM Apr 2, 2017
I am reading a biography about a pilot who flew in the fleet arm during ww2, the carriers name is the Illustrious, now this Guy has been sent to the States for training, then to Egypt where he did the mail runs about the place, or sent home on leave etc., then back to the States for further training on Corsairs, then out to the Illustrious to be part of a Corsair Squadron. The story is now during January 1945, he has risen to the rank of Squadron Leader, and is in charge of 18 aircraft, the latest Corsairs.
But! they haven't yet seen an enemy aircraft in the air yet, except for one reconnaissance plane that flew over, catching them unawares. They have no combat experience, they have bombed and straffed 3 Jap airfields. They have spent what seems like hundreds of hours practicing, they have lost about 30-40 pilots, they have had deck handling accidents killing navel ratings. They have spent 8 weeks in South Africa having a ball while the ships are re-fitted, not counting the other times on shore.
Now a large aircraft carrier does not roam around the Pacific on its own, there is the destroyer screen, cruisers, oilers and support ships.
My question is, was Britton serious about the war in the Pacific, as when reading about the same stories with the Americans , it was full on.
I am a bit taken back by the waste of lives and equipment and seemingly to achieve nothing.
-- Edited by iana on Sunday 2nd of April 2017 05:30:50 AM
Mike Harding said
06:07 AM Apr 2, 2017
Is this your book?
With naval wings : the autobiography of a Fleet Air Arm pilot in World War II John Wellham
Possum3 said
07:54 AM Apr 2, 2017
Ian, There are many tales and reminiscences of ludicrous orders given (and followed) by the ruling elite that through birthright were commanding many arms of the Services including the deployment of personnel and assets during WW2.
This in no way reflects the courage and dedication of the unfortunates that complied with these orders, on many times to the death.
Fortunately Australia broke the "British apron strings" and emerged as debatably the finest "Defence Force" of modern times.
iana said
08:47 AM Apr 2, 2017
The book is called "Carrier Pilot" by Norman Hanson, the problem I have with E books, is I can't just flick back through the pages to look at details dates etc. I have a hard enough time if I sneeze and a finger happens to be on the screen, spend the next half hour looking for my page.
I am not talking about a few weeks here but years, I think there is a bit of action in the next chapter, I hope so as its starting to get boring.
Lancelot Link said
12:50 AM Apr 4, 2017
Possum3, debatably the finest? Shame on you! To add a little bit of Tango to the discussion, I met some American WWII veterans who wanted to correct the Australian version of Kakoda by telling me that they took the final stages and that the Japanese were not eating Australian corpses on the retreat! I guess American movies are the truth and the fact that our Australian Chocos probably fought 2 weights above the division they were in does not matter!
iana said
06:37 AM Apr 4, 2017
Well finished that chapter, they bombed an oil refinery in Sumartra, of the aircraft lost two thirds were from deck landings and deck accidents. It didn't finish there, during the action the Japs decided to attack the formation, in the excitement one of the cruisers pumped a couple of five inch shells into the carrier and killed 12 sailors and injured 22. What a debacle.
Possum3 said
02:31 PM Apr 4, 2017
From Victorian State Library site
By early September 1942, the Japanese were within 48 kilometres of Port Moresby, and could see the lights of the town. But they were now far from their own supply base on the northern coast, and faced the difficulties of moving supplies and weapons along the narrow, mountainous track. Their men were now suffering from the same hunger and disease that had earlier affected the Australian troops.
At the same time, American forces had occupied the island of Guadalcanal, in the Solomon Islands, east of Papua. They could use the island as a base to attack Japanese shipping. In response, the Japanese command decided to concentrate on Guadalcanal and withdrew their forces from Papua, even though they were within sight of their objective in Port Moresby.
Australian and American troops followed the retreating Japanese along the track, and fought them when they reached their coastal base at Buna-Gona. They defeated the Japanese, but Allied casualties were extremely high. Overall, more than 600 Australian troops died in fighting throughout the Kokoda operation, and more than 1600 were wounded. Over 4,000 soldiers suffered from tropical diseases. Estimates of the Japanese dead are uncertain, but are probably even higher than the Allied casualties, because of the Japanese military tradition of committing suicide rather than surrendering.
iana said
05:48 PM Apr 4, 2017
So far I have not read anything about Australians in the fleet air arm, only British, Canadian and New Zealanders, and this is in January 1945.
Tony Bev said
12:40 AM Apr 5, 2017
Hello Ian This is very long winded post, so you may want to grab a cuppa
As a teenager and a young man, I read a lot of biographies of WW1 and WW2 military people I came to the conclusion that a lot of planned battles were won/lost, as much to luck as well as planning
Nearly all sides of both these wars, placed armies/airplanes/ships in strategic positions. The way I read it, this was to ensure that their enemy, would also have to leave their own armies/airplanes/ships in a strategic position, to counterbalance the power
Just off the top of my head, so do not quote me on this WW1 saw major battleships of both sides, staying in their home ports, to ensure that the enemy, did not venture out onto the ocean, in force WW2 saw the Australian 2/2 Commando fighting a guerrilla action in Timor, for about a year, which tied up many thousands of Japanese and pro Japanese troops
Below is the known record of HMS Illustrious, it does look as though it did not do very much after 1942
23 Jan 1940 British carrier HMS Illustrious left Malta for Alexandria, Egypt.
25 May 1940 Illustrious was commissioned into service.
30 Aug 1940 The brand-new armoured aircraft carrier, HMS Illustrious, and a powerful escort left Gibraltar. Although her air group was small (only 15 fighters and 18 bomber aircraft), Illustrious was one of the first warships to be fitted with air-warning radars which gave her a big advantage in fleet defence, as she could detect and track hostile aircraft and give her aircraft time to gain altitude. With both Illustrious and Eagle under his command, Admiral Cunningham could now take the offensive.
17 Sep 1940 British Swordfish torpedo bombers from carrier HMS Illustrious attacked the port of Benghazi, Libya, bombing shipping and laying mines. Italian destroyer Borea was sunk by torpedoes and destroyer Aquilone was damaged by a mine. Italian merchant ships Gloria Stella and Maria Eugenia were also sunk.
20 Dec 1940 15 British carrier aircraft from HMS Illustrious attacked an Italian convoy off Kerkennah islands, Tunisia between 0515 and 0615 hours, sinking two of the three ships in the convoy.
23 Jan 1941 British aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious, damaged by Stuka dive bombers on 10 Jan, completed temporary repairs and departed Malta for Alexandria, Egypt with destroyers HMS Jervis, HMS Juno, HMS Janus, and HMS Greyhound in escort.
25 Jan 1941 HMS Illustrious arrived at Alexandria, Egypt.
7 May 1942 British Fleet Air Arm Swordfish aircraft of HMS Illustrious spotted French submarine Le Héros off Courrier Bay, Madagascar at 0500 hours and attacked with depth charges; Le Héros attempted to evade by diving, but ultimately would be forced to surface and would be scuttled by her own crew to prevent capture.
1 Dec 1954 Illustrious was decommissioned from service.
iana said
07:11 AM Apr 5, 2017
Hi Tony, that info is at the beginning of the war, this guy is flying towards the end 1945. My guess is that McArthur has told the British to butt out, that they will finish this game off. The carrier now has Avengers and Corsairs, but is still cruising about practicing. My point of the conversation is the waste of human life with little being achieved.
iana said
09:22 AM Apr 8, 2017
I was kinda right with my thinking, the author has finally mentioned the problem, and its not McArthur, but Admiral Nimitz and the ivory towers of the American navy. They have finally got a couple of islands to cover while the Americans go in and do the hard work.
Tony Bev said
12:20 PM Apr 8, 2017
Hello Ian, another long one, so grab another cuppa
You are probably right, but always remember that you are reading the views and opinions, of one person
Reading about the history of HMS Illustrious, on the net, which sometimes is not always correct It appears that this ship, as well as some others, was used to attack insignificant Islands, to keep the Japanese guessing, that is why from 1942 onwards it never saw very much action
It also appears that when the ship was bombed early on in the war, at least one of the propeller shafts had a vibration, which they could never repair, so it was no longer as fast as it could have been
To give an example of one man and his viewpoint, verses the big picture My old Dad, was a merchant seaman trained gunner, as a stern gun on a merchant ship was designated as a defence, and not an attacking gun
In the middle of the war years, he did a few trips on the Queen Mary, as a gunner. The owners had commanded the captain to keep the ship clean
During troop transportations, the soldiers were issued with overshoes, to put over their boots The crew were kept busy continually cleaning the decks
My Dad looking at the nice shiny stern deck, decided that it would be a good target for an enemy bomb, his gun, and himself He (you did not hear this from me), threw overboard all the scrubbing brooms from the stern section, because he thought that the owners were nuts, and he preferred a not so shiny deck
On the other hand, the owners knowing that the Queen Mary always had escorts, while it was within range of enemy bombers Knowing that as a fast ship, travelling on its own at high speed, that its large wake would be easy to follow Knowing that its only guns were on the stern, so that is where some bombs would be aiming for Decided that a shiny deck was better than a not so shiny one
We shall never know who was right and who was wrong, as while on that ship, my Dad was never bombed or torpedoed
iana said
08:23 PM Apr 8, 2017
Interesting Tony, they called into Fremantle (I think) and had the middle prop shaft removed and a dummy plug put in its place. I'm pretty certain this pilot had a ride to America on the Q Mary. And yes during the American attacks on Okinawa, this carrier force was employed to keep neigbouring Jap airfield s out of action. That's where I am at in the book, very slow reader.
I am reading a biography about a pilot who flew in the fleet arm during ww2, the carriers name is the Illustrious, now this Guy has been sent to the States for training, then to Egypt where he did the mail runs about the place, or sent home on leave etc., then back to the States for further training on Corsairs, then out to the Illustrious to be part of a Corsair Squadron. The story is now during January 1945, he has risen to the rank of Squadron Leader, and is in charge of 18 aircraft, the latest Corsairs.
But! they haven't yet seen an enemy aircraft in the air yet, except for one reconnaissance plane that flew over, catching them unawares. They have no combat experience, they have bombed and straffed 3 Jap airfields. They have spent what seems like hundreds of hours practicing, they have lost about 30-40 pilots, they have had deck handling accidents killing navel ratings. They have spent 8 weeks in South Africa having a ball while the ships are re-fitted, not counting the other times on shore.
Now a large aircraft carrier does not roam around the Pacific on its own, there is the destroyer screen, cruisers, oilers and support ships.
My question is, was Britton serious about the war in the Pacific, as when reading about the same stories with the Americans , it was full on.
I am a bit taken back by the waste of lives and equipment and seemingly to achieve nothing.
-- Edited by iana on Sunday 2nd of April 2017 05:30:50 AM
Is this your book?
With naval wings : the autobiography of a Fleet Air Arm pilot in World War II
John Wellham
This in no way reflects the courage and dedication of the unfortunates that complied with these orders, on many times to the death.
Fortunately Australia broke the "British apron strings" and emerged as debatably the finest "Defence Force" of modern times.
I am not talking about a few weeks here but years, I think there is a bit of action in the next chapter, I hope so as its starting to get boring.
From Victorian State Library site
By early September 1942, the Japanese were within 48 kilometres of Port Moresby, and could see the lights of the town. But they were now far from their own supply base on the northern coast, and faced the difficulties of moving supplies and weapons along the narrow, mountainous track. Their men were now suffering from the same hunger and disease that had earlier affected the Australian troops.
At the same time, American forces had occupied the island of Guadalcanal, in the Solomon Islands, east of Papua. They could use the island as a base to attack Japanese shipping. In response, the Japanese command decided to concentrate on Guadalcanal and withdrew their forces from Papua, even though they were within sight of their objective in Port Moresby.
Australian and American troops followed the retreating Japanese along the track, and fought them when they reached their coastal base at Buna-Gona. They defeated the Japanese, but Allied casualties were extremely high. Overall, more than 600 Australian troops died in fighting throughout the Kokoda operation, and more than 1600 were wounded. Over 4,000 soldiers suffered from tropical diseases. Estimates of the Japanese dead are uncertain, but are probably even higher than the Allied casualties, because of the Japanese military tradition of committing suicide rather than surrendering.
Hello Ian
This is very long winded post, so you may want to grab a cuppa
As a teenager and a young man, I read a lot of biographies of WW1 and WW2 military people
I came to the conclusion that a lot of planned battles were won/lost, as much to luck as well as planning
Nearly all sides of both these wars, placed armies/airplanes/ships in strategic positions.
The way I read it, this was to ensure that their enemy, would also have to leave their own armies/airplanes/ships in a strategic position, to counterbalance the power
Just off the top of my head, so do not quote me on this
WW1 saw major battleships of both sides, staying in their home ports, to ensure that the enemy, did not venture out onto the ocean, in force
WW2 saw the Australian 2/2 Commando fighting a guerrilla action in Timor, for about a year, which tied up many thousands of Japanese and pro Japanese troops
Below is the known record of HMS Illustrious, it does look as though it did not do very much after 1942
23 Jan 1940 British carrier HMS Illustrious left Malta for Alexandria, Egypt.
25 May 1940 Illustrious was commissioned into service.
30 Aug 1940 The brand-new armoured aircraft carrier, HMS Illustrious, and a powerful escort left Gibraltar. Although her air group was small (only 15 fighters and 18 bomber aircraft), Illustrious was one of the first warships to be fitted with air-warning radars which gave her a big advantage in fleet defence, as she could detect and track hostile aircraft and give her aircraft time to gain altitude. With both Illustrious and Eagle under his command, Admiral Cunningham could now take the offensive.
17 Sep 1940 British Swordfish torpedo bombers from carrier HMS Illustrious attacked the port of Benghazi, Libya, bombing shipping and laying mines. Italian destroyer Borea was sunk by torpedoes and destroyer Aquilone was damaged by a mine. Italian merchant ships Gloria Stella and Maria Eugenia were also sunk.
20 Dec 1940 15 British carrier aircraft from HMS Illustrious attacked an Italian convoy off Kerkennah islands, Tunisia between 0515 and 0615 hours, sinking two of the three ships in the convoy.
23 Jan 1941 British aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious, damaged by Stuka dive bombers on 10 Jan, completed temporary repairs and departed Malta for Alexandria, Egypt with destroyers HMS Jervis, HMS Juno, HMS Janus, and HMS Greyhound in escort.
25 Jan 1941 HMS Illustrious arrived at Alexandria, Egypt.
7 May 1942 British Fleet Air Arm Swordfish aircraft of HMS Illustrious spotted French submarine Le Héros off Courrier Bay, Madagascar at 0500 hours and attacked with depth charges; Le Héros attempted to evade by diving, but ultimately would be forced to surface and would be scuttled by her own crew to prevent capture.
1 Dec 1954 Illustrious was decommissioned from service.
Hello Ian, another long one, so grab another cuppa
You are probably right, but always remember that you are reading the views and opinions, of one person
Reading about the history of HMS Illustrious, on the net, which sometimes is not always correct
It appears that this ship, as well as some others, was used to attack insignificant Islands, to keep the Japanese guessing, that is why from 1942 onwards it never saw very much action
It also appears that when the ship was bombed early on in the war, at least one of the propeller shafts had a vibration, which they could never repair, so it was no longer as fast as it could have been
To give an example of one man and his viewpoint, verses the big picture
My old Dad, was a merchant seaman trained gunner, as a stern gun on a merchant ship was designated as a defence, and not an attacking gun
In the middle of the war years, he did a few trips on the Queen Mary, as a gunner.
The owners had commanded the captain to keep the ship clean
During troop transportations, the soldiers were issued with overshoes, to put over their boots
The crew were kept busy continually cleaning the decks
My Dad looking at the nice shiny stern deck, decided that it would be a good target for an enemy bomb, his gun, and himself
He (you did not hear this from me), threw overboard all the scrubbing brooms from the stern section, because he thought that the owners were nuts, and he preferred a not so shiny deck
On the other hand, the owners knowing that the Queen Mary always had escorts, while it was within range of enemy bombers
Knowing that as a fast ship, travelling on its own at high speed, that its large wake would be easy to follow
Knowing that its only guns were on the stern, so that is where some bombs would be aiming for
Decided that a shiny deck was better than a not so shiny one
We shall never know who was right and who was wrong, as while on that ship, my Dad was never bombed or torpedoed