I spend a lot of my bush time eeerrr... in the bush :) and out of reach of clean drinking water and when I hit the road permanently I intend to spend most of my time in such locations.
Therefore I have been researching ways to make creek and dam water safe and I wonder if you wise people can expand my new found knowledge because a chemist I am not.
As I understand things: The first thing to do is to remove as much particulate as possible and a really good way to do this is with a three stage filter, ie. coarse sand/tiny gravel followed by fine sand followed by charcoal followed by cotton wool/dense weave cloth.
Renew the cotton wool/cloth every few days and the rest every couple of weeks. Activated charcoal is best but is expensive and cannot be made in the bush. Ground charcoal from campfire hardwood is a decent second.
Next we need to kill bacteria and the main two ways to do this seem to be: 1 - a little household bleach - 1 drop/lt 2 - a rolling boil for 60 seconds
My understanding is the above two processes should produce potable water.
I realise commercial sub-micron filters are available but they are expensive and require a pumping system.
Any thoughts or comments people?
msg said
07:18 PM Feb 27, 2017
How about bottled water for 46c p/L ? That's what I take. About 40ltrs will last me 2-3weeks. Its a consistent taste and makes my tea nice. Fill up 90ltr van tank with tap water and use this for washing etc. That way if I need extra drinking I have the van tank in emergency.
-- Edited by msg on Monday 27th of February 2017 07:21:45 PM
Mike Harding said
07:22 PM Feb 27, 2017
>How about bottled water for 46c p/L ?
Thank you, I am aware of bottled water but I was rather hoping for information on filtering and making safe bush water.
adreamer said
09:08 PM Feb 27, 2017
Mike Harding wrote:
>How about bottled water for 46c p/L ?
Thank you, I am aware of bottled water but I was rather hoping for information on filtering and making safe bush water.
I would have thought a man like you with sssssoooooooooooo much knowledge, would have heard of water purifiers in tablet form from over the counter at your local chemist. Think you are dreaming again!!
chooknphil said
09:12 PM Feb 27, 2017
Hi mike We bought a reverse osmosis unit that is designed for travelling From memory they were called "water 2 go " have no affiliation with them they are on the web, hope this helps regards chooknphil
rockylizard said
09:45 PM Feb 27, 2017
Gday...
Mike, without knowing what you are travelling in, what water holding capacity you already have in the 'vehicle/van', how long you expect to camp away from 'mains water, and whether you travel alone or with a partner and/or pet, I offer the following advice from my experience.
I travel alone in a van with two 90litre water tanks.
I also carry a 10litre and a 20litre blue plastic water 'jerry can' which I have filled with 'good town water' when in, or passing through, a town.
If I am camped near a creek, river, lake, dam etc then I usually collect water from that source in a bucket/billies and use that for washing - clothes, dishes, myself.
The water in my van tanks and the two 'jerry cans' is usually only consumed as drinking water.
I have an 'on-tap filter' (Brita) which clears 99.9% of everything - it filters the water from my van's water tanks. I don't drink the water from creeks, rivers, lakes or dams - too much hassle to 'purify'.
I also have a bucket arrangement that I can hook up on the awning stays to capture rainwater and a tube from the bucket to my 20litre water container (or the 10litre if it is empty instead or as well).
I camp for up to two weeks at a time usually. I have yet to run out of water in the van's tanks ... unless camped where there is no 'secondary' water source - eg creek, river, lake, dam. If I get desperate I simply take the 20litre and/or 10litre 'jerry can' into the nearest town and fill them up at a 'convenient' tap.
I invariably move on through a town and usually have little difficulty obtaining replacement water for the van tanks and/or my 'jerry cans' for my next camping place.
I have been tent camping for the past 50 or so years ... tents and/or camper-trailers ... and now the last eight years in a van. In all that time I have never found it necessary to go to the extremes of having an elaborate set-up to filter water for 'consumption' from creeks, rivers, lakes or dams. In the old days - two 20litre 'jerry cans' would last me at least a week ... longer if on a clean, lovely mountain creek.
Obviously, you have the way you wish to camp, but my experience has been that whilst I always need to be wary/careful with my water usage, I have yet to need any 'system' to filter creeks etc.
Cheers - John
macka17 said
10:50 PM Feb 27, 2017
I don't know about you lot.
You spend Whatever, on your rigs. Some a lot, some a little.
Contaminated water can kill the short life YOU allotted with, quite quickly.
Read a little on Desalination units. Marine and otherwise. Ac and DC. compare the quality of water. EVERY drop you get through them.
Then just go out and buy a Desal unit.
We started off with an inner tube. plastic sheet and inner liner to container floating behind boat originally. And fresh branches with leaves in a pit with plastic over. and inner container for evap water to run into. out in bush Just to seee if we could and if it worked. Fun. Slow. But keeps you alive. It works. I lived on boat out at sea for over a week. just doing that. As an experiment. (2 of us on my boat)
GUARANTEED 99.9% PURE water. at your end. Virtually irrelevant as to what you put in there.
It's a bloody no brainer. I've lived off them for over 30 yrs.At sea and in bush. Only the second one in all that time. Not counting Membranes.
You KNOW.... You've got "undeniably pure" drinking water. for not much more than a major service on your tug.
Why scratch around, wondering. "Is it??". All the water you get on those cruise ships. is either Desal, or Steamed SEA WATER.
A lot of small coastal areas. LIVE on Desal water only around the world. Via salt water.
It's been used reliably. For decades.
Think about it.
PS.
We used those water purifier in ship emergency packs and in Army in '50's.
Haa. You a better man than me Gunga Din.
If you can drink that water without a sweetener in there YUK.
Safe..... BUT.
-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 27th of February 2017 10:52:59 PM
PeterD said
08:42 AM Feb 28, 2017
The only filter that will make water safe is the reverse osmoses type. For safe water we are not talking about small particles that can be filtered out, we are talking about microbes and germs that are a lot smaller than the capability of the common fine filters. the B.E.S.T and other carbon loaded filters only alter the taste of river and sulphurous bore water, they don't remove pathogens.
Neil n Chris said
11:57 AM Feb 28, 2017
I have a small RO unit, stores in a 10L bucket, has the option of a 5L pump up pressure vessel but works OK using a 12v diaphragm pump also. Works well with mains pressure, takes about half an hour to make 5litres, so not fast but is great water!
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:05 AM Mar 1, 2017
The water that 99.9% of us drink at home is made safe and palatable by a combination of filtration and chlorination.
That is very easy to do "on the road".
We chlorinate all water we put into our tanks, irrespective of where we get it from. Then after the pump and immediately before consumption we pass it through a 5um sediment filter followed by 1um active carbon/silver filter.
Simple, cheap and effective.
Cheers,
Peter
Mike Harding said
07:34 PM Mar 1, 2017
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
We chlorinate all water we put into our tanks, irrespective of where we get it from. Then after the pump and immediately before consumption we pass it through a 5um sediment filter followed by 1um active carbon/silver filter.
Sounds like a good system.
I assume the water you use is essentially "clean" before you put it into your tanks? How would your filters go if you filled up with dam water? ie. the water appears muddy and opaque, would they handle that or would they clog up unacceptably quickly?
What do you use for the chlorine treatment? A domestic bleach - which one? Or powder sodium hypochlorite - which seems to be hard to buy.
msg said
09:19 PM Mar 1, 2017
We were offered channel water at Mareeba. Said it was OK but cloudy and unfiltered. Declined because I thought of the sediment in tank and how would it affect the pump.
Aus-Kiwi said
10:53 PM Mar 1, 2017
Muddy water etc.. I wouldn't put in my tanks.. I would filter and chlorine it before filling cans etc..As an emergency .. Then boil the water for atleast 3 min before drinking..
rockylizard said
11:00 PM Mar 1, 2017
msg wrote:
We were offered channel water at Mareeba. Said it was OK but cloudy and unfiltered. Declined because I thought of the sediment in tank and how would it affect the pump.
Gday...
After staying in the Mareeba area last year, this is what my filter looked like.
It had only been in use for less than a month. Obviously, the one on the right is a clean one ready to go in.
I usually change my filters every six months .. and they have NEVER been anywhere near this discoloured.
cheers - John
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:28 PM Mar 2, 2017
Mike Harding wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
We chlorinate all water we put into our tanks, irrespective of where we get it from. Then after the pump and immediately before consumption we pass it through a 5um sediment filter followed by 1um active carbon/silver filter.
Sounds like a good system.
I assume the water you use is essentially "clean" before you put it into your tanks? How would your filters go if you filled up with dam water? ie. the water appears muddy and opaque, would they handle that or would they clog up unacceptably quickly?
What do you use for the chlorine treatment? A domestic bleach - which one? Or powder sodium hypochlorite - which seems to be hard to buy.
Cheap domestic bleach (without additives of any kind) is the most easily obtainable liquid sodium hypochlorite. It is typically 6g/L free chlorine. The recommended addition rate is 8ml/100L, more if the water is suspect and in warmer conditions where the chlorine breaks down and disappears quite quickly. We tend to use more than that. Liquid swimming pool chlorine is the same stuff, but about double the concentration. Most granular chlorine is potassium hypochlorite and is NOT the stuff to use.
We avoid cloudy water if possible although the particulate filters will take care of it without a problem, but they then need changing more often. Particulate filters (10") cost about $10 and the 1um carbon/silver filters cost about $30. We would normally change both once per year.
The 1um carbon/silver filter will remove any remaining chlorine.
Cheers,
Peter
Mike Harding said
12:58 PM Mar 4, 2017
Excellent info Peter, thanks for that.
Do you have a brand name for the bleach? I'm having trouble finding one which doesn't have smell nice and other stuff in it. Peerless brand appears OK but it seems to be aimed at commercial cleaners and the smallest is 5lt and I understand bleach degrades over around 12 months.
The filters are cheaper than I expected and good to hear the 1u removes the bleach, I hate that taste :)
Jaahn said
04:52 PM Mar 4, 2017
Hi
There is a product that will do what you want and is available from camping stores etc and online. It was developed for third world countries and buying them will benefit other people too. More than one style available
http://lifestraw.com/
Cheers jaahn
PS people might like to carry some for 'emergency use' if the tank is holed. I have not used them.
They look like good products for hikers but do not appear to be intended to process more than 100lt of water to drinking quality.
Additionally, and please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am :) ) they appear to be be simply an activated charcoal filter followed by a very fine 0.2u filter. Now that array will catch most bacteria but it won't capture viruses.
rockylizard said
07:31 PM Mar 4, 2017
Gday...
Ya a hard man to pleeze Mike
Did ya read this part of the website ? Go on - read it ... it is quite comprehensive
PS - why does it seem that people just don't seem to read/absorb websites provided to impart information/advice pertinent to their query
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Saturday 4th of March 2017 08:16:12 PM
Mike Harding said
09:47 AM Mar 5, 2017
>Ya a hard man to pleeze Mike
Have you been talking with my ex-wife!? :)
OK, I went over their website in some detail. They appear to be a new company with a new product but very limited distribution and, currently, a low user base but that's OK everyone has to start somewhere.
They are not very clear as to how their system works but it appears to be an activated charcoal filter followed by a sub 1u filter and given the bacteria and viruses they claim it filters (polio virus at 30nm) it must be very far below 1u. Which makes me wonder how much water I could put through it before it clogged? They mention 20,000lt for the jerrycan filters but I doubt filters that fine would take 20k of turbid dam water. I'd like to see more definitive tests and indications from them in this regard.
I am very surprised the product can filter viruses, the CDC suggests this may not be possible with all viruses and the Lifesaver units were only tested on polio virus:
The 18.5lt jerrycan is $410 and the replacement filters are $260 and $50 respectively.
Overall, the product does appear to do what it says and will produce good drinking water although I'd like to see testing on a much wider range of viruses.
Thanks for that John, it appears to be a product with promise.
Edit: The European site provides better info than the Oz one:
http://www.iconlifesaver.eu/
It appears the charcoal filter has a short lifespan once it is opened whether in use or not however Lifesaver say the use of the charcoal filter is not essential but I imagine the main filter will block up much more quickly.
Also the filters are only rated to a storage temperature of 50C, In itself not unreasonable but a temperature which may be exceeded in a car left in Australian sun.
Their FAQ is well worth reading.
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Sunday 5th of March 2017 10:33:52 AM
I spend a lot of my bush time eeerrr... in the bush :) and out of
reach of clean drinking water and when I hit the road permanently I
intend to spend most of my time in such locations.
Therefore I have been researching ways to make creek and dam water
safe and I wonder if you wise people can expand my new found knowledge
because a chemist I am not.
As I understand things:
The first thing to do is to remove as much particulate as possible
and a really good way to do this is with a three stage filter, ie.
coarse sand/tiny gravel followed by fine sand followed by charcoal
followed by cotton wool/dense weave cloth.
Renew the cotton wool/cloth every few days and the rest every couple
of weeks. Activated charcoal is best but is expensive and cannot be
made in the bush. Ground charcoal from campfire hardwood is a decent
second.
Next we need to kill bacteria and the main two ways to do this seem
to be:
1 - a little household bleach - 1 drop/lt
2 - a rolling boil for 60 seconds
My understanding is the above two processes should produce potable
water.
I realise commercial sub-micron filters are available but they are
expensive and require a pumping system.
Any thoughts or comments people?
How about bottled water for 46c p/L ? That's what I take. About 40ltrs will last me 2-3weeks. Its a consistent taste and makes my tea nice. Fill up 90ltr van tank with tap water and use this for washing etc. That way if I need extra drinking I have the van tank in emergency.
-- Edited by msg on Monday 27th of February 2017 07:21:45 PM
>How about bottled water for 46c p/L ?
Thank you, I am aware of bottled water but I was rather hoping for information on filtering and making safe bush water.
I would have thought a man like you with sssssoooooooooooo much knowledge, would have heard of water purifiers in tablet form from over the counter at your local chemist. Think you are dreaming again!!
Hi mike We bought a reverse osmosis unit that is designed for travelling From memory they were called "water 2 go " have no affiliation with them they are on the web, hope this helps regards chooknphil
Gday...
Mike, without knowing what you are travelling in, what water holding capacity you already have in the 'vehicle/van', how long you expect to camp away from 'mains water, and whether you travel alone or with a partner and/or pet, I offer the following advice from my experience.
I travel alone in a van with two 90litre water tanks.
I also carry a 10litre and a 20litre blue plastic water 'jerry can' which I have filled with 'good town water' when in, or passing through, a town.
If I am camped near a creek, river, lake, dam etc then I usually collect water from that source in a bucket/billies and use that for washing - clothes, dishes, myself.
The water in my van tanks and the two 'jerry cans' is usually only consumed as drinking water.
I have an 'on-tap filter' (Brita) which clears 99.9% of everything - it filters the water from my van's water tanks. I don't drink the water from creeks, rivers, lakes or dams - too much hassle to 'purify'.
I also have a bucket arrangement that I can hook up on the awning stays to capture rainwater and a tube from the bucket to my 20litre water container (or the 10litre if it is empty instead or as well).
I camp for up to two weeks at a time usually. I have yet to run out of water in the van's tanks ... unless camped where there is no 'secondary' water source - eg creek, river, lake, dam. If I get desperate I simply take the 20litre and/or 10litre 'jerry can' into the nearest town and fill them up at a 'convenient' tap.
I invariably move on through a town and usually have little difficulty obtaining replacement water for the van tanks and/or my 'jerry cans' for my next camping place.
I have been tent camping for the past 50 or so years ... tents and/or camper-trailers ... and now the last eight years in a van. In all that time I have never found it necessary to go to the extremes of having an elaborate set-up to filter water for 'consumption' from creeks, rivers, lakes or dams. In the old days - two 20litre 'jerry cans' would last me at least a week ... longer if on a clean, lovely mountain creek.
Obviously, you have the way you wish to camp, but my experience has been that whilst I always need to be wary/careful with my water usage, I have yet to need any 'system' to filter creeks etc.
Cheers - John
I don't know about you lot.
You spend Whatever, on your rigs.
Some a lot, some a little.
Contaminated water can kill the short life YOU allotted with, quite quickly.
Read a little on Desalination units. Marine and otherwise.
Ac and DC.
compare the quality of water. EVERY drop you get through them.
Then just go out and buy a Desal unit.
We started off with an inner tube. plastic sheet and inner liner to container
floating behind boat originally.
And fresh branches with leaves in a pit with plastic over. and inner container for evap water to run into.
out in bush
Just to seee if we could and if it worked. Fun.
Slow. But keeps you alive.
It works.
I lived on boat out at sea for over a week. just doing that.
As an experiment. (2 of us on my boat)
GUARANTEED 99.9% PURE water.
at your end.
Virtually irrelevant as to what you put in there.
It's a bloody no brainer.
I've lived off them for over 30 yrs.At sea and in bush.
Only the second one in all that time.
Not counting Membranes.
You KNOW.... You've got "undeniably pure" drinking water.
for not much more than a major service on your tug.
Why scratch around, wondering. "Is it??".
All the water you get on those cruise ships. is either Desal, or Steamed SEA WATER.
A lot of small coastal areas. LIVE on Desal water only around the world.
Via salt water.
It's been used reliably. For decades.
Think about it.
PS.
We used those water purifier in ship emergency packs and in Army in '50's.
Haa. You a better man than me Gunga Din.
If you can drink that water without a sweetener in there YUK.
Safe..... BUT.
-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 27th of February 2017 10:52:59 PM
That is very easy to do "on the road".
We chlorinate all water we put into our tanks, irrespective of where we get it from. Then after the pump and immediately before consumption we pass it through a 5um sediment filter followed by 1um active carbon/silver filter.
Simple, cheap and effective.
Cheers,
Peter
Sounds like a good system.
I assume the water you use is essentially "clean" before you put it into your tanks? How would your filters go if you filled up with dam water? ie. the water appears muddy and opaque, would they handle that or would they clog up unacceptably quickly?
What do you use for the chlorine treatment? A domestic bleach - which one? Or powder sodium hypochlorite - which seems to be hard to buy.
Gday...
After staying in the Mareeba area last year, this is what my filter looked like.
It had only been in use for less than a month. Obviously, the one on the right is a clean one ready to go in.
I usually change my filters every six months .. and they have NEVER been anywhere near this discoloured.
cheers - John
Cheap domestic bleach (without additives of any kind) is the most easily obtainable liquid sodium hypochlorite. It is typically 6g/L free chlorine. The recommended addition rate is 8ml/100L, more if the water is suspect and in warmer conditions where the chlorine breaks down and disappears quite quickly. We tend to use more than that. Liquid swimming pool chlorine is the same stuff, but about double the concentration. Most granular chlorine is potassium hypochlorite and is NOT the stuff to use.
We avoid cloudy water if possible although the particulate filters will take care of it without a problem, but they then need changing more often. Particulate filters (10") cost about $10 and the 1um carbon/silver filters cost about $30. We would normally change both once per year.
The 1um carbon/silver filter will remove any remaining chlorine.
Cheers,
Peter
Excellent info Peter, thanks for that.
Do you have a brand name for the bleach? I'm having trouble finding one which doesn't have smell nice and other stuff in it. Peerless brand appears OK but it seems to be aimed at commercial cleaners and the smallest is 5lt and I understand bleach degrades over around 12 months.
The filters are cheaper than I expected and good to hear the 1u removes the bleach, I hate that taste :)
Hi
There is a product that will do what you want and is available from camping stores etc and online. It was developed for third world countries and buying them will benefit other people too. More than one style available
http://lifestraw.com/
Cheers jaahn
PS people might like to carry some for 'emergency use' if the tank is holed. I have not used them.
Gday...
There is always this perhaps -
http://www.lifesaversystems.com.au/
Cheers - John
Hi Jaahn and John
Thanks for that.
They look like good products for hikers but do not appear to be intended to process more than 100lt of water to drinking quality.
Additionally, and please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am :) ) they appear to be be simply an activated charcoal filter followed by a very fine 0.2u filter. Now that array will catch most bacteria but it won't capture viruses.
Gday...
Ya a hard man to pleeze Mike
Did ya read this part of the website ? Go on - read it ... it is quite comprehensive
http://www.lifesaversystems.com.au/clean-drinking-water/
These are a couple of the products they provide - right there on their home-page website ...
Given what ya seem to be searchin' for ... it is jest a matter of how much ya wanna outlay.
This mob sell the product -
http://www.toughtoys.com.au/authorised-retailer/lifesaver-systems/
And they seem not really that expensive -
PS -
why does it seem that people just don't seem to read/absorb websites provided to impart information/advice pertinent to their query 
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Saturday 4th of March 2017 08:16:12 PM
>Ya a hard man to pleeze Mike
Have you been talking with my ex-wife!? :)
OK, I went over their website in some detail. They appear to be a new
company with a new product but very limited distribution and,
currently, a low user base but that's OK everyone has to start
somewhere.
They are not very clear as to how their system works but it appears
to be an activated charcoal filter followed by a sub 1u filter and
given the bacteria and viruses they claim it filters (polio virus at
30nm) it must be very far below 1u. Which makes me wonder how much
water I could put through it before it clogged? They mention 20,000lt
for the jerrycan filters but I doubt filters that fine would take 20k
of turbid dam water. I'd like to see more definitive tests and
indications from them in this regard.
I am very surprised the product can filter viruses, the CDC suggests
this may not be possible with all viruses and the Lifesaver units were
only tested on polio virus:
https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html
http://www.iconlifesaver.eu/documents/LSHTM.pdf
Both initial purchase and spares are expensive:
http://www.toughtoys.com.au/authorised-retailer/lifesaver-systems/
The 18.5lt jerrycan is $410 and the replacement filters are $260 and
$50 respectively.
Overall, the product does appear to do what it says and will produce
good drinking water although I'd like to see testing on a much wider
range of viruses.
Thanks for that John, it appears to be a product with promise.
Edit:
The European site provides better info than the Oz one:
http://www.iconlifesaver.eu/
It appears the charcoal filter has a short lifespan once it is opened
whether in use or not however Lifesaver say the use of the charcoal
filter is not essential but I imagine the main filter will block up
much more quickly.
Also the filters are only rated to a storage temperature of 50C, In
itself not unreasonable but a temperature which may be exceeded in a
car left in Australian sun.
Their FAQ is well worth reading.
-- Edited by Mike Harding on Sunday 5th of March 2017 10:33:52 AM