I'm concerned for good reason. Its a bit of a hobby of mine to keep abreast of the US military.
The world court has rejected China's claim on the "valuable" islands in the South China Sea. But they took over the ilands anyhow as they has supet size oil and gas fields under them.
The USA navy has sent a modern aircraft carrier and supportive ships into that sea. Add to that a fleet stationed in Japan and you have a lot of firepower and I havent mentioned nuclear warheads yet.
It gets complex when you start to consider nearby Taiwan that China wants back as its land. Taiwan has quite a resistance to any amphibious land invasion though. Japan in its own right has a lot of ability also and they have a dispute with China over their islands also. North Korea could cspitalise if a conflict comes. Mote complexity. Australia could become an important ally to the US. We can service their fighters, if we get involved we have great, similar fighting aircraft. We have Pine Gap which could be the target for an intercontinental missle strike. Suddenly we could be at war again this time against our biggest trading partner...
Desert Dweller said
05:35 AM Feb 23, 2017
Australia's obsessed with anything to do with war, surprising for a country with a pop gun armed forces. We'll have to rely on kissing Yankee butt as usual. That's what we have to do because we're an easy target.
Read an article recently that we owe the Yanks millions for all the bombs that we've bought from them to drop on targets that they want us to hit. What a joke!
Ron-D said
08:54 AM Feb 23, 2017
China has an evil government that has figured out that if you have an unlimited population that you can enslave to make goods for export no one else in the world can compete ,the only way out in my opinion is to slap a 90Percent import tax on there goods, that would make it a level playing field and maybe we could start making things again in the western world.
the rocket said
11:57 AM Feb 23, 2017
Hi eaglemax, i do not worry about this. we Have a government to do that worrying for us N make decisions. I can c u r very worried and concerned n if it helps talking here then ok. But in the end no amount of worrying by anyway is going to change a Thing. Hope u have a good day.
Santa said
01:02 PM Feb 23, 2017
Won't be China V USA, will be another world conflict, no one will come out of it well.
dazz49 said
05:42 PM Feb 23, 2017
War never proves who is right. Only who is left
Santa said
05:56 PM Feb 23, 2017
So! what's the answer, appeasement or aggression?
"Appeasement policy, the policy of appeasing Hitler and Mussolini, operating jointly at that time, during 1937 and 1938 by continuous concessions granted in the hope of reaching a point of saturation when the dictators would be willing to accede to international collaboration. ... It came to an end when Hitler seized Czechoslovakia on March 15, 1939, in defiance of his promises given at Munich, and Prime Minister Chamberlain, who had championed appeasement before, decided on a policy of resistance to further German aggression."
Walter Theimer (ed.), The Penguin Political Dictionary, 1939
One unhinged word leader is all it will take, heaven knows, there are plenty of them around at the moment.
Unfortunately all the wisdom in the world won't prevent it.
-- Edited by Santa on Thursday 23rd of February 2017 06:20:00 PM
Landfall said
06:36 PM Feb 23, 2017
Was recently reading an article by an American think tank that specialises in the armed forces oof the world.
Their conclusion about a conflict between the USA and China was neither could win, it would be a draw.
The USA has an advantage in technology but the Chinese has a superior advantage in numbers.
To answer Ron-D, "The Chinese have an evil government" personally I would argue that the USA government has been the evil government for many years. How many conflicts have the Chinese been in since WW2 compared with the USA?
Papou said
09:09 PM Feb 23, 2017
Doubt we will be involved in any war with China , they need their trading partners as much as their trading partners need them for simple survival via trade.
A major war would benefit investors n get industry on the move once more as well as bring some of that industry back thats managed or decidedto move offshore for financial gain via cheaper labour sources yes.
If a major war were to unfold I myself think it would sadly be under the banner of a Holy War if thats a simple term for it .
Look whats happening around us to somehow believe this could be possible.
Relook at History and the previouse arenas of conflict.
The above quote is attributed to Bertrand Russell, I admired his mind, however he was a renowned pacifist with strong socialist/communist tendencies, however he recanted these views after a visit to the Soviet Union in the 1920's.
Ron-D said
05:04 PM Feb 24, 2017
Landfall wrote:
Was recently reading an article by an American think tank that specialises in the armed forces oof the world.
Their conclusion about a conflict between the USA and China was neither could win, it would be a draw.
The USA has an advantage in technology but the Chinese has a superior advantage in numbers.
To answer Ron-D, "The Chinese have an evil government" personally I would argue that the USA government has been the evil government for many years. How many conflicts have the Chinese been in since WW2 compared with the USA?
You have a valid point Lanfall,but at least the Americans are paid for there labour ,eat decent food ,can afford luxury items,can vote for there government, can live in decent homes,have freedom of speech,I could go on forever there not treated like second class animals to be used as cheap labour in my opinion there's no comparison...
Landfall said
06:24 PM Feb 24, 2017
Ron-D wrote:
Landfall wrote:
Was recently reading an article by an American think tank that specialises in the armed forces oof the world.
Their conclusion about a conflict between the USA and China was neither could win, it would be a draw.
The USA has an advantage in technology but the Chinese has a superior advantage in numbers.
To answer Ron-D, "The Chinese have an evil government" personally I would argue that the USA government has been the evil government for many years. How many conflicts have the Chinese been in since WW2 compared with the USA?
You have a valid point Lanfall,but at least the Americans are paid for there labour ,eat decent food ,can afford luxury items,can vote for there government, can live in decent homes,have freedom of speech,I could go on forever there not treated like second class animals to be used as cheap labour in my opinion there's no comparison...
Have been to both countries and personally I would prefer to live in China. Most of your points are pure rubbish.
macka17 said
11:03 PM Feb 24, 2017
Landfall.
YOU may have "been" to China.
same as a few of my mates. and Dave goes alternately a month China. A month Tibet.
He's a Budhist by religion.
BUT they all LIVE in Aust. Dave owns a Vinyard.
Visit. Great. for a month.
Nobody in right mind would live there though.
They all say.
IF on same standing as the average chinese worker\peasant.
we got to Thailand and South American country's, regularly. Great to visit.
Lima. Peru. Santiago Mexico etc etc.
Yes to visit. Any of them.
Live. NO way.
Canada yes. if climate ever warms up.
U.S. No. mainly for the people.and we have friends\family there.
Nobody with anything between the ears, and financially stable\comfortable
in a Western world.
would move to, and live in. any of those country's.
I doubt they'd last long if they ever did try either.
Language. conditions. NO western wealth taken with them.
All against it.
Eaglemax said
12:38 AM Feb 25, 2017
Thanks everyone for your contributions. I do think a conflift will occur off China and one with Iran usa and Israel.
As fir a draw between China and usa, if usa cripples china's navy then it doesn't matter how many troops they have, they cant leave the shores. However give the Chinese 15 years and they will surpass all other superpowers.
Landfall said
07:49 AM Feb 25, 2017
Hi macka17,
Tend to agree with you, I did not say we are planning to move there but that I would prefer it to the USA. Of course it would depend on where I was prepared to move to.
We felt a darn site safer in China than the USA, once again it depended on the region/s.
As for a conflict? IMO the Chinese will not start one but the USA the likely problem.
Ron-D said
09:25 AM Feb 25, 2017
Landfall wrote:
Ron-D wrote:
Landfall wrote:
Was recently reading an article by an American think tank that specialises in the armed forces oof the world.
Their conclusion about a conflict between the USA and China was neither could win, it would be a draw.
The USA has an advantage in technology but the Chinese has a superior advantage in numbers.
To answer Ron-D, "The Chinese have an evil government" personally I would argue that the USA government has been the evil government for many years. How many conflicts have the Chinese been in since WW2 compared with the USA?
You have a valid point Lanfall,but at least the Americans are paid for there labour ,eat decent food ,can afford luxury items,can vote for there government, can live in decent homes,have freedom of speech,I could go on forever there not treated like second class animals to be used as cheap labour in my opinion there's no comparison...
Have been to both countries and personally I would prefer to live in China. Most of your points are pure rubbish.
theres something wrong with your brain .
Phil C said
10:14 AM Feb 25, 2017
As an ex military person I would like to add my 2 bobs worth in this interesting thread.
I believe the biggest threat to Australia lays in the islands just to the north west of us. Now, without inciting a major blowout on this thread I suggest that those islands and the holy war they may tag onto could represent a serious danger to us.
It is my opinion that neither China or the USA will instigate the MAD (mutually assured destruction) of a 3rd world war as both countries would like to see the next century. They will saber rattle and bluster till the cows come home but the deterrent of MAD should calm the generals. As mentioned there will be no winner in a war between China and the USA, just an exchange of warheads. The department of dirty tricks in both countries may be very busy soon if one or both dont pull their heads in.
I reluctantly, and sadly agree with the comment "Australia has a pop gun military" being part of it for 12 years has shown me we would be sent to the cleaners rather fast if a war broke out against us.
Im afraid ideologies, religions and politics may be the next battle grounds as I see it, some religion run states and politicians will be the participants rather than major powers, these combatants should fall easy prey to a nation with the moxy and weapons to stand up and fight, the only problem with that is have these religious states got nukes?
I wonder what sort of planet my grandchildren will live on if fools are allowed to control it? I shudder to contemplate the answer if things dont change soon.
BTW I suggest most vehemently that we keep this discussion opinion and fact based as personal attacks and political/religious rants may see the thread closed. I know I just came close to a few boundaries, NO offence intended at all.
Cheers
Eaglemax said
07:12 PM Feb 25, 2017
I think following President Trumps announcement today, we can assume total global dominance us their plan. At the moment, with the middle East and the South China Sea being powderkegs with a short wick, the could divide USA's abilities, enormous as they are.
Today we also had the Indonesian President vidit and his first concern was against Pauline Hanson. Regardless of our political choices such nations dont have a grip on our democracy,, almost free speech law of our land.
Such temperamental attitudes is not good immediately to our north.
But any conflict that occurs in the South China Sea could see us unite with other Asian countries as a collective. Concerning times ahead.
Greystone said
07:37 PM Feb 25, 2017
Agree with Phil.
Americans have short term vision, they don't have the long term commitment to any conflict whereas China has a history of long warfare. The moment Trump commences any act of hostility there will be millions of Americans on the streets protesting. China will not have that issue, they will be unified.
I think the war will be economic, like the US imposing import tariffs. This will accelerate the decline of the US economic power as other countries can jump in the beach and take advantage. The only thing great after Trump's presidency will be Trump Inc.
Eaglemax said
08:02 PM Feb 25, 2017
I think following President Trumps announcement today, we can assume total global dominance us their plan. At the moment, with the middle East and the South China Sea being powderkegs with a short wick, the could divide USA's abilities, enormous as they are.
Today we also had the Indonesian President vidit and his first concern was against Pauline Hanson. Regardless of our political choices such nations dont have a grip on our democracy,, almost free speech law of our land.
Such temperamental attitudes is not good immediately to our north.
But any conflict that occurs in the South China Sea could see us unite with other Asian countries as a collective. Concerning times ahead.
Lancelot Link said
04:01 AM Feb 27, 2017
I just blow my own trumpet here. Anyone who hangs any sort of garbage on our Australian armed forces should go and stick their head down a toilet and flush it because that is where your point of view belongs. The rest of the world regards Australian Military personnel as the best in the world. They are not the best equipped, but they are good! As far as the rest of the thread goes, Indonesia is probably right up there as a threat, India is probably working within, Japan has probably, along with China, purchased enough to have established land rights, America only wants us when they want us.
The failing is in our Government, it does not matter whether China and the US go head to head, we have lost all engineering ability to gear up to defend ourselves. Think about it, where in Australia can we make a hot founding of steel and drive it by road to a forge to make a large calibre gun barrel while the billet is hot enough to work?
Call it what you want, racism, bigotry or xenophobia or Governmental control, I believe Australia is already lost. I believe the Australian economy is being controlled by, oil prices as dictated by the American dollar, the stock market driven by the oil dollar and the foreign investment and companies investing in Australia with Australian Government backing without taxation!
Yes, I am frightened that there will be war, it will probably be more economic than bombs and bullets, and will probably end up with more casualties than bombs and bullets.
Landfall said
07:27 AM Feb 27, 2017
LL,
Lots of good points and genuine food for thought.
I fought in the Indonesian/Malaysian conflict and have been back to both countries a number of times. Totally agree with you about Indonesia being a major threat to our security.
The Weapons Research Establishment in SA used to turn out some of the most advanced weaponry in the world but was always squashed by the USA because we could not supply the numbers required for NATO and of course the yanks.
Australia has been lost for quite some time while it clings onto the coat tails of the US and your statement that America only wants us when it suits them is spot on, both economically and physically..
Our armed forces personnel are up there with the very best and it would be a waste of their lives to follow the US in any of their own made up conflicts.
Cheers
warhorse said
09:37 AM Feb 27, 2017
have to agree with most comments here,so i pose a question,why do we have joint military exercises with our northern neighbors,one has to wonder about their motives.
Santa said
09:57 AM Feb 27, 2017
warhorse wrote:
have to agree with most comments here,so i pose a question,why do we have joint military exercises with our northern neighbors,one has to wonder about their motives.
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
Sun Tzu.
msg said
10:57 AM Feb 27, 2017
Eaglemax wrote:
I think following President Trumps announcement today, we can assume total global dominance us their plan. At the moment, with the middle East and the South China Sea being powderkegs with a short wick, the could divide USA's abilities, enormous as they are. Today we also had the Indonesian President vidit and his first concern was against Pauline Hanson. Regardless of our political choices such nations dont have a grip on our democracy,, almost free speech law of our land. Such temperamental attitudes is not good immediately to our north. But any conflict that occurs in the South China Sea could see us unite with other Asian countries as a collective. Concerning times ahead.
Why would his first concern be against Pauline Hanson?
The Belmont Bear said
09:38 AM Feb 28, 2017
Hi MSG, only my opinion but I believe president Widodo would be concerned because Indonesia is the world's biggest muslim nation and having someone like Pauline Hanson with her out spoken views on islam getting into a position where she could influence the Australian government would not be very palatable for them. It would be like having an openly anti western president in Indonesia and the threat that could then imply for us.
Cloak said
05:11 PM Mar 1, 2017
I don't plan to be around for the next big one... But yes we are already a casualty of head up the bum policies for the last 50 years...
macka17 said
12:32 PM Mar 6, 2017
We could go on here forever.
All the differingopinions.
Me. I never fought in a physical. one on one . bullets war.
We spent our time in the '50's '60's in West Germany. maintaining the Nuclear Missiles
the Artillery Regiments I was LAD'd to had.
All lines up and pointing over the fence, then wall. WAITING. WAITING.
Nobody. Not even that Idiot in North Korea would ever pull the trigger on that type of warfare.
Enough of the people in that military KNOW the consequences and would step in.
You ever push the trigger on that ****.
you KNOW you're dead. What's the point. You lose too.
I've seen the damage a very small dose does first hand.
In military trials, and reactions to. JUST in case.)
It's not the military. But those extremists we have to worry about.
One of them ever gets hold of one. Look out.
They looking for joining allah in hell.
Military's are just there to keep unemployment rates down,
and businesses in business.
Best thing this country could ever do.
Is to bring back Conscription. Male and female.
That'd get unemployment down.
Put them in the front lines to use up some of the other peoples bullets.
B4 the trained soldiers go in there I reckon.
That's all most of the bludgers are worth.
PLUS.. the unemployment costs would go waaaay down hey.
And I ain't joking there. Sort out a lot of the dross.
Country would be a better place.
Australia's obsessed with anything to do with war, surprising for a country with a pop gun armed forces. We'll have to rely on kissing Yankee butt as usual. That's what we have to do because we're an easy target.
Read an article recently that we owe the Yanks millions for all the bombs that we've bought from them to drop on targets that they want us to hit. What a joke!
China has an evil government that has figured out that if you have an unlimited population that you can enslave to make goods for export no one else in the world can compete ,the only way out in my opinion is to slap a 90Percent import tax on there goods, that would make it a level playing field and maybe we could start making things again in the western world.
Hi eaglemax, i do not worry about this. we Have a government to do that worrying for us N make decisions. I can c u r very worried and concerned n if it helps talking here then ok. But in the end no amount of worrying by anyway is going to change a Thing. Hope u have a good day.
Won't be China V USA, will be another world conflict, no one will come out of it well.
So! what's the answer, appeasement or aggression?
"Appeasement policy, the policy of appeasing Hitler and Mussolini, operating jointly at that time, during 1937 and 1938 by continuous concessions granted in the hope of reaching a point of saturation when the dictators would be willing to accede to international collaboration. ... It came to an end when Hitler seized Czechoslovakia on March 15, 1939, in defiance of his promises given at Munich, and Prime Minister Chamberlain, who had championed appeasement before, decided on a policy of resistance to further German aggression."
Walter Theimer (ed.), The Penguin Political Dictionary, 1939
One unhinged word leader is all it will take, heaven knows, there are plenty of them around at the moment.
Unfortunately all the wisdom in the world won't prevent it.
-- Edited by Santa on Thursday 23rd of February 2017 06:20:00 PM
Was recently reading an article by an American think tank that specialises in the armed forces oof the world.
Their conclusion about a conflict between the USA and China was neither could win, it would be a draw.
The USA has an advantage in technology but the Chinese has a superior advantage in numbers.
To answer Ron-D, "The Chinese have an evil government" personally I would argue that the USA government has been the evil government for many years. How many conflicts have the Chinese been in since WW2 compared with the USA?
The above quote is attributed to Bertrand Russell, I admired his mind, however he was a renowned pacifist with strong socialist/communist tendencies, however he recanted these views after a visit to the Soviet Union in the 1920's.
You have a valid point Lanfall,but at least the Americans are paid for there labour ,eat decent food ,can afford luxury items,can vote for there government, can live in decent homes,have freedom of speech,I could go on forever there not treated like second class animals to be used as cheap labour in my opinion there's no comparison...
YOU may have "been" to China.
same as a few of my mates. and Dave goes alternately a month China. A month Tibet.
He's a Budhist by religion.
BUT they all LIVE in Aust. Dave owns a Vinyard.
Visit. Great. for a month.
Nobody in right mind would live there though.
They all say.
IF on same standing as the average chinese worker\peasant.
we got to Thailand and South American country's, regularly. Great to visit.
Lima. Peru. Santiago Mexico etc etc.
Yes to visit. Any of them.
Live. NO way.
Canada yes. if climate ever warms up.
U.S. No. mainly for the people.and we have friends\family there.
Nobody with anything between the ears, and financially stable\comfortable
in a Western world.
would move to, and live in. any of those country's.
I doubt they'd last long if they ever did try either.
Language. conditions. NO western wealth taken with them.
All against it.
Hi macka17,
Tend to agree with you, I did not say we are planning to move there but that I would prefer it to the USA. Of course it would depend on where I was prepared to move to.
We felt a darn site safer in China than the USA, once again it depended on the region/s.
As for a conflict? IMO the Chinese will not start one but the USA the likely problem.
I believe the biggest threat to Australia lays in the islands just to the north west of us. Now, without inciting a major blowout on this thread I suggest that those islands and the holy war they may tag onto could represent a serious danger to us.
It is my opinion that neither China or the USA will instigate the MAD (mutually assured destruction) of a 3rd world war as both countries would like to see the next century. They will saber rattle and bluster till the cows come home but the deterrent of MAD should calm the generals. As mentioned there will be no winner in a war between China and the USA, just an exchange of warheads. The department of dirty tricks in both countries may be very busy soon if one or both dont pull their heads in.
I reluctantly, and sadly agree with the comment "Australia has a pop gun military" being part of it for 12 years has shown me we would be sent to the cleaners rather fast if a war broke out against us.
Im afraid ideologies, religions and politics may be the next battle grounds as I see it, some religion run states and politicians will be the participants rather than major powers, these combatants should fall easy prey to a nation with the moxy and weapons to stand up and fight, the only problem with that is have these religious states got nukes?
I wonder what sort of planet my grandchildren will live on if fools are allowed to control it? I shudder to contemplate the answer if things dont change soon.
BTW I suggest most vehemently that we keep this discussion opinion and fact based as personal attacks and political/religious rants may see the thread closed. I know I just came close to a few boundaries, NO offence intended at all.
Cheers
The failing is in our Government, it does not matter whether China and the US go head to head, we have lost all engineering ability to gear up to defend ourselves. Think about it, where in Australia can we make a hot founding of steel and drive it by road to a forge to make a large calibre gun barrel while the billet is hot enough to work?
Call it what you want, racism, bigotry or xenophobia or Governmental control, I believe Australia is already lost. I believe the Australian economy is being controlled by, oil prices as dictated by the American dollar, the stock market driven by the oil dollar and the foreign investment and companies investing in Australia with Australian Government backing without taxation!
Yes, I am frightened that there will be war, it will probably be more economic than bombs and bullets, and will probably end up with more casualties than bombs and bullets.
LL,
Lots of good points and genuine food for thought.
I fought in the Indonesian/Malaysian conflict and have been back to both countries a number of times. Totally agree with you about Indonesia being a major threat to our security.
The Weapons Research Establishment in SA used to turn out some of the most advanced weaponry in the world but was always squashed by the USA because we could not supply the numbers required for NATO and of course the yanks.
Australia has been lost for quite some time while it clings onto the coat tails of the US and your statement that America only wants us when it suits them is spot on, both economically and physically..
Our armed forces personnel are up there with the very best and it would be a waste of their lives to follow the US in any of their own made up conflicts.
Cheers
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
Sun Tzu.
Why would his first concern be against Pauline Hanson?
All the differingopinions.
Me. I never fought in a physical. one on one . bullets war.
We spent our time in the '50's '60's in West Germany. maintaining the Nuclear Missiles
the Artillery Regiments I was LAD'd to had.
All lines up and pointing over the fence, then wall. WAITING. WAITING.
Nobody. Not even that Idiot in North Korea would ever pull the trigger on that type of warfare.
Enough of the people in that military KNOW the consequences and would step in.
You ever push the trigger on that ****.
you KNOW you're dead. What's the point. You lose too.
I've seen the damage a very small dose does first hand.
In military trials, and reactions to. JUST in case.)
It's not the military. But those extremists we have to worry about.
One of them ever gets hold of one. Look out.
They looking for joining allah in hell.
Military's are just there to keep unemployment rates down,
and businesses in business.
Best thing this country could ever do.
Is to bring back Conscription. Male and female.
That'd get unemployment down.
Put them in the front lines to use up some of the other peoples bullets.
B4 the trained soldiers go in there I reckon.
That's all most of the bludgers are worth.
PLUS.. the unemployment costs would go waaaay down hey.
And I ain't joking there. Sort out a lot of the dross.
Country would be a better place.