How can i run AGM and Lithium Ion batteries together on solar.
polki said
11:00 AM Feb 15, 2017
I currently run a 120ah agm with a single 200w solar panel on top of millard 16ft poptop and want to upgrade system to 2 x 120ah batteries and 300w solar panels.
PeterD said
06:10 PM Feb 15, 2017
If you wish to run two batteries with chemistry as diverse as those you will have to run them in separate systems. You can't parallel them.
Hylife said
09:37 PM Feb 17, 2017
Charging Lithium batteries is completely different to lead acid variations.
Lithium require a charger specifically designed for them, that supplies both a constant voltage and specific current from start to finish, and when the battery gets to a specific terminal voltage then the charger must completely shut off.
You must not float/trickle charge lithium batteries as they do not self discharge like lead acid and you will over-charge them.
Lithium battery voltages don't vary based on charge state. They deliver the full charge voltage from full charge until approx. 98% discharged so you must monitor your consumption because they do not like being completely discharged to 0 volts.
MPPT controllers cannot be used on Lithium batteries.
DC to DC chargers must have a specific lithium setting. All the mainstream units don't work for lithium.
AC to DC chargers must have a specific lithium setting.
polki said
04:58 PM Feb 19, 2017
Thanks Hylife & Petrr D. I will just add another AGM battery to my system until all needs replacing, then may go lithium.
T1 Terry said
10:15 PM Feb 23, 2017
Hylife wrote:
Charging Lithium batteries is completely different to lead acid variations.
Lithium require a charger specifically designed for them, that supplies both a constant voltage and specific current from start to finish, and when the battery gets to a specific terminal voltage then the charger must completely shut off.
You must not float/trickle charge lithium batteries as they do not self discharge like lead acid and you will over-charge them.
Lithium battery voltages don't vary based on charge state. They deliver the full charge voltage from full charge until approx. 98% discharged so you must monitor your consumption because they do not like being completely discharged to 0 volts.
MPPT controllers cannot be used on Lithium batteries.
DC to DC chargers must have a specific lithium setting. All the mainstream units don't work for lithium.
AC to DC chargers must have a specific lithium setting.
Ummm..... a bit of a mixed lot here, lithium batteries can be float charged on solar but not on a mains charger 24/7, they don't like that.
You can use MPPT controllers but there are serious problems with getting them to return to boost charging as they are expecting to see less than 12.5v, a lithium battery is very flat when it drops to 12.5v as the voltage can still be up around 12.8v after 100% of the advertised capacity is used. This is part of the problem with combining lead acid and lithium batteries in one system, the lithium will hold the lead acid battery above 12.8v till it is exhausted of all its capacity, so the lead acid doesn't do any work until the lithium is so flat there is serious risk of damaging it. However, a lead acid in the tow vehicle and a lithium in the van only connected when driving will work together, just don't let the lithium battery drain back into the lead acid battery in the car for days on end that all.
Mainstream DC to DC chargers do work with lithium batteries but an added interface is required to protect the lithium battery from over voltage charging. The lithium settings in just about all chargers are way to high and will wreck unprotected lithium batteries.
A properly installed lithium battery is a system, not just a drop in, you will have nothing but headaches, heartache and wallet ache is you attempt to do it any other way.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
macka17 said
12:12 PM Feb 25, 2017
I think I'd forget Lithium aand stick to the wet\AGM.types
till the next generation is more on market.
they water? based and waay better than these lithium things
according to reviews so far?.
At hopefully better pricing.
Lithium unless you a HAVE to HAVE person are not really a value for money item.
What's already avail does a same job, at much lower pricing scale.
There's always something betterer at something higher a price.
that MAY.. in the future.
Not be overtakes, or even
Yea.... Come down in price.
ALl developed to part you from your money.
Mounted open to the air for ventilation.
Wet Cells still do ALL any of these so called superbattery's can do,
at fractions of the prices.
And if you rig is so close to weight limits you have to worry about the weight of a coupla battery's.
Well. You ain't got the right rig mate.One or the other is wrong.
aussie_paul said
01:15 PM Feb 25, 2017
macka17 wrote:
I think I'd forget Lithium aand stick to the wet\AGM.types
till the next generation is more on market. they water? based and waay better than these lithium things according to reviews so far?. At hopefully better pricing.
Lithium unless you a HAVE to HAVE person are not really a value for money item. What's already avail does a same job, at much lower pricing scale.
There's always something betterer at something higher a price. that MAY.. in the future. Not be overtakes, or even Yea.... Come down in price.
ALl developed to part you from your money.
Mounted open to the air for ventilation. Wet Cells still do ALL any of these so called superbattery's can do, at fractions of the prices.
And if you rig is so close to weight limits you have to worry about the weight of a coupla battery's.
Well. You ain't got the right rig mate.One or the other is wrong.
lol, what a cynic you are Macka!!!!
Aussie Paul.
Izabarack said
07:03 AM Feb 26, 2017
Is your question about Lithium Ion or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries? Big difference when talking charging and use.
Iza
Aus-Kiwi said
10:37 AM Mar 1, 2017
I hear there is a silicon battery in the works ?? Often thought of separate Lithium system ? My worry is having both batteries flat out in the outback.. At least have enough battery to start generator ..
macka17 said
07:59 PM Mar 1, 2017
Not Cynic Paul.
Just practical.
These modern things may well be the better ones in future.
But.
For the average pensioner etiree on here.
The wet calls do a perfect job at fraction of price.
Let somebody else pay for the trials and problems.
I'll be stepping in later (maybe?) when they a more practical price thank you
There's much more I'd spend my money on before some fancy battery's.
PS.
You like my personal campingTable???
Neat hey.
Fit for both ends yes.
T1 Terry said
07:44 PM Mar 7, 2017
:lol: macka I love your table and your wacky views on all sorts of subjects as you never let reality get in the way and alter your opinions :lol: If we leave out the facts like: a) A 100Ah quality lithium ferrous battery will supply as much energy at better than 12v as 200Ah of flooded cell lead acid yet take up less than half the room. b) They recharge much faster and will accept the full output from multiple charging sources at the same time unlike lead acid batteries c) They last at least twice as long as a flood cell battery and still deliver more than 70% of its advertised capacity d) They weigh 16kg strapped and ready to go compared to 64kg for the same useable capacity as the flooded cell batteries e) Lithium ferrous cells are not damaged by remaining at less than fully charged for long periods of time
then possibly some could see sense in your argument..... except for the fraction of the price bit...... but I guess 99/100ths is still a fraction so you can sort of get away with it :lol: They will never be cheaper than they are right now, they were 20% cheaper a few yrs ago and back 5 yrs ago when everyone said they'd wait for the price to drop they were over 30% cheaper than they are now, so good luck with the wait for the price drop
T1 Terry
T1 Terry said
08:05 PM Mar 7, 2017
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
I hear there is a silicon battery in the works ?? Often thought of separate Lithium system ? My worry is having both batteries flat out in the outback.. At least have enough battery to start generator ..
Are you sure you read/heard what was really said? This would be that 1414 company perhaps? They are proposing to store ENERGY in a block of silicon, not all energy is electrical. They plan to store heat energy in a block of silicon, then use that to drive heat pumps to drive generators to produce electricity....... doesn't sound even close to the full cycle efficiency of over 99% achieved by quality lithium ferrous batteries right now. Heat storage is old technology and concentrate salt solutions have been used for yrs for just hat purpose. A French mob are now even been able to generate power 24/7 from such a system so what value would using such a precious resource like silcon
As far as starting the generator on a flat battery? If the definition of flat is using the full 100Ah out of the advertised 100Ah capacity from a fully charged lithium ferrous battery then as long as the generator would have started with a charge battery then I'd say there would be no problems at all, I can start my 3500cc 4 cyl Mazda diesel when the Victron BMV reports 0% SOC so I think your generator would start ok
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
mr glassies said
09:37 PM Mar 28, 2017
Hi terry
Here's a little up for lithium . I had died felt batterie in the Colorado hahah . Well 1 of those little green 50 amp batteries flooded starting it . Guy watching said not possible and they have been flooded to death .
Love my setup works better than I thought it ever would .
Dibs
Reed said
04:49 AM Apr 28, 2017
Macka17
Weight is a considerable problem when you have a lot of stored energy
9.5 kW-hr of LFP in our fifth wheel weight approximately 110 kg. Equivalent lead acid would be over 400 kg which would be more on hitch and rear axle than recommended. We have dualie rear end on our 2006 Chevie 350 diesel. 1400 W if solar ganged in two series for 90 V to controller. Have not tied into line power in two years with this system.
4.7 kW-hr of LFP in our 2002 Roadtrek is about 55 kg. Equivalent lead acid would be 110 kg and there is no room in a roadtrek for four large lead acid batteries. Got the used Roadtrek for 14 weeks in Newfoundland and Labrador. Lots of boondocking/ free camping spots in NE Canada for a Roadtrek, not so many for a 10 m fifth wheel. Just got back from 14 weeks in Mexico where there are great places such as San Cristobal de las Casas in Chiapas that you could not get in with anything over 6.5 m. If you did get in you would never get out. Thankfully my wife Elaine has gotten us out of two places my navigating got us into in San Miguel del Allende and Baja California. We did plug in while in San Cristobal and Patzcuaro due to rain and trees.
We have heavy duty battery chargers on both rigs due to "dirty" power in a lot of places. Have had micro-waves destroyed in Baja and Yucatan.
Only problems with LFP besides cost is high and low temperatures. We have blowers that come if temperature got to high but it never has. Have a blower in the Roadtrek that comes on at 3 C to blow internal air into battery suite compartment. We have 110 V (we live in North America) and 12 V outlets in 5th wheel to run 30 W or 50 W bulbs to keep compartment above 0 C. We have had ambient down to -8 C and
this kept compartment above 3 C.
Reed and Elaine (currently at 2500 m in mountains of northern New Mexico where it does get below 0 C and is still snowing at times - but the hummingbirds have returned from Mexico and Central America
-- Edited by Reed on Friday 28th of April 2017 10:06:50 AM
T1 Terry said
10:55 AM Apr 28, 2017
Hi Reed & Elaine, long time no hear. Fortunately those low temps aren't seen over this side of the planet too often and the Winston LYP cells can handle -30*C which we would never see, even hard to get the blast chill freezer down to that and hold it :lol: I see mention of heat mats for under the cells used by DIY EV builders in Europe and the loss of capacity at high discharge rates when the cells are down around the -20*C mark, but no damage to the cells with full output returning once the cells warm up. The end we need to consider is the 60*C upper safe zone, they do put out their max capabilities at this temp but it is unknown what effect it has on cycle life as only the electric drag racers seem to push the cells up to these temps, they pull huge loads for secs and that would more likely be the cause for reduced cycle life.
As far as the weight comparison, a 100Ah AGM deep cycle battery should weight between 30kg to 32kg, it just takes that much lead to store 100Ah at a C20 discharge rate, any lighter than 30kg says it is not really a 100Ah at C20 rate discharge battery, maybe at a C100 rate @ 28kg. The same 100Ah packed and strapped Li prismatic cell battery weighs 15kg, but that is not the end of the comparison, if 12v is used as the end of useable capacity bench mark only 50% of the AGM battery can be use, so now 2 x 100Ah AGM batteries are required to get 100Ah before the voltage drops below 12v under a 10 amp or higher load. The same 100Ah Li battery will deliver all 100Ah under the same conditions and still remain above 12v, so now the real comparison is 2 x 100Ah AGM weighing in @ 60kg+ and a 100Ah Li weighing in at 15kg, so the difference is huge really.
As far as dirty power, sadly we suffer the same here in places, including major cities. After having a number of fridges, washing machines, stereos and microwaves destroyed by power spikes we had ended up running everything through the inverter and charging the battery via old dumb chargers when the sun didn't do its duty, they are near bullet proof because there is next to nothing in them that can be harmed, but the transformers hum quite loud on occasions. Since we moved to South Australia I haven't had a chance to set up a similar system for the house...... we think we may have lost a few appliances this morning as things went pear-shaped before we lost all power, still need to check out just what has happened.
T1 Terry
Aus-Kiwi said
07:49 PM Apr 28, 2017
The cost of some batteries ? Yes both ways makes things lighter . Your wallet also ., lol
Reed said
02:24 AM Apr 29, 2017
T1 Terry -We ran into folks a year ago in Yucatan that plugged into what was supposed to be a 120 V outlet near Oaxaca, Mexico but it was 220 V. Burned out all their electrical utilities: air conditioning, microwave just as you have managed to do. Son set up both vehicles with Meanwell battery chargers so we do the same as you have done. These will work with AC from 90 to 254 V. They will also work with DC if one were ever able to find a DC outlet.
We tossed the 50amp (120 V) power cord (weighed to much), and then tossed 20 amp replacement and now just use a 15 amp (120 V) power cords for
both the 10 m 5th wheel and the Roadtrek
We ran into the same couple in San Miguel del Allende and spent time in the area with them and then traveled with them to the border. The guy has dual US/Australian citizenship and he spent half an hour working things out with the US Immigration officials. He apparently participated in sailboat racing and was in one race from Melbourne or Sydney to Perth via Darwin.
Reed and Elaine
-- Edited by Reed on Saturday 29th of April 2017 05:12:54 AM
T1 Terry said
02:19 PM Apr 29, 2017
Hi Reed, all fixed, the system has spike protection on a sub board and that tripped the circuit breaker. Only being new to the house I didn't even know the board was there but at least I know for the future. Glad I found it before the sparkie came, that would have been real embarrassing :lol:
A multi voltage charger would be a must if power supplies are that unreliable, fortunately we don't have that sort of voltage problems over here, just spikes and under voltage causing motor burn outs.
I currently run a 120ah agm with a single 200w solar panel on top of millard 16ft poptop and want to upgrade system to 2 x 120ah batteries and 300w solar panels.
Charging Lithium batteries is completely different to lead acid variations.
Lithium require a charger specifically designed for them, that supplies both a constant voltage and specific current from start to finish, and when the battery gets to a specific terminal voltage then the charger must completely shut off.
You must not float/trickle charge lithium batteries as they do not self discharge like lead acid and you will over-charge them.
Lithium battery voltages don't vary based on charge state. They deliver the full charge voltage from full charge until approx. 98% discharged so you must monitor your consumption because they do not like being completely discharged to 0 volts.
MPPT controllers cannot be used on Lithium batteries.
DC to DC chargers must have a specific lithium setting. All the mainstream units don't work for lithium.
AC to DC chargers must have a specific lithium setting.
Ummm..... a bit of a mixed lot here, lithium batteries can be float charged on solar but not on a mains charger 24/7, they don't like that.
You can use MPPT controllers but there are serious problems with getting them to return to boost charging as they are expecting to see less than 12.5v, a lithium battery is very flat when it drops to 12.5v as the voltage can still be up around 12.8v after 100% of the advertised capacity is used. This is part of the problem with combining lead acid and lithium batteries in one system, the lithium will hold the lead acid battery above 12.8v till it is exhausted of all its capacity, so the lead acid doesn't do any work until the lithium is so flat there is serious risk of damaging it. However, a lead acid in the tow vehicle and a lithium in the van only connected when driving will work together, just don't let the lithium battery drain back into the lead acid battery in the car for days on end that all.
Mainstream DC to DC chargers do work with lithium batteries but an added interface is required to protect the lithium battery from over voltage charging. The lithium settings in just about all chargers are way to high and will wreck unprotected lithium batteries.
A properly installed lithium battery is a system, not just a drop in, you will have nothing but headaches, heartache and wallet ache is you attempt to do it any other way.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
till the next generation is more on market.
they water? based and waay better than these lithium things
according to reviews so far?.
At hopefully better pricing.
Lithium unless you a HAVE to HAVE person are not really a value for money item.
What's already avail does a same job, at much lower pricing scale.
There's always something betterer at something higher a price.
that MAY.. in the future.
Not be overtakes, or even
Yea.... Come down in price.
ALl developed to part you from your money.
Mounted open to the air for ventilation.
Wet Cells still do ALL any of these so called superbattery's can do,
at fractions of the prices.
And if you rig is so close to weight limits you have to worry about the weight of a coupla battery's.
Well. You ain't got the right rig mate.One or the other is wrong.
lol, what a cynic you are Macka!!!!
Aussie Paul.
Is your question about Lithium Ion or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries? Big difference when talking charging and use.
Iza
Just practical.
These modern things may well be the better ones in future.
But.
For the average pensioner
etiree on here.
The wet calls do a perfect job at fraction of price.
Let somebody else pay for the trials and problems.
I'll be stepping in later (maybe?) when they a more practical price thank you
There's much more I'd spend my money on before some fancy battery's.
PS.
You like my personal campingTable???
Neat hey.
Fit for both ends yes.
:lol: macka I love your table and your wacky views on all sorts of subjects as you never let reality get in the way and alter your opinions :lol:
If we leave out the facts like:
a) A 100Ah quality lithium ferrous battery will supply as much energy at better than 12v as 200Ah of flooded cell lead acid yet take up less than half the room.
b) They recharge much faster and will accept the full output from multiple charging sources at the same time unlike lead acid batteries
c) They last at least twice as long as a flood cell battery and still deliver more than 70% of its advertised capacity
d) They weigh 16kg strapped and ready to go compared to 64kg for the same useable capacity as the flooded cell batteries
e) Lithium ferrous cells are not damaged by remaining at less than fully charged for long periods of time
then possibly some could see sense in your argument..... except for the fraction of the price bit...... but I guess 99/100ths is still a fraction so you can sort of get away with it :lol:
They will never be cheaper than they are right now, they were 20% cheaper a few yrs ago and back 5 yrs ago when everyone said they'd wait for the price to drop they were over 30% cheaper than they are now, so good luck with the wait for the price drop
T1 Terry
Are you sure you read/heard what was really said? This would be that 1414 company perhaps? They are proposing to store ENERGY in a block of silicon, not all energy is electrical. They plan to store heat energy in a block of silicon, then use that to drive heat pumps to drive generators to produce electricity....... doesn't sound even close to the full cycle efficiency of over 99% achieved by quality lithium ferrous batteries right now. Heat storage is old technology and concentrate salt solutions have been used for yrs for just hat purpose. A French mob are now even been able to generate power 24/7 from such a system so what value would using such a precious resource like silcon
As far as starting the generator on a flat battery? If the definition of flat is using the full 100Ah out of the advertised 100Ah capacity from a fully charged lithium ferrous battery then as long as the generator would have started with a charge battery then I'd say there would be no problems at all, I can start my 3500cc 4 cyl Mazda diesel when the Victron BMV reports 0% SOC so I think your generator would start ok
T1 Terry
T1 Terry
Here's a little up for lithium . I had died felt batterie in the Colorado hahah . Well 1 of those little green 50 amp batteries flooded starting it . Guy watching said not possible and they have been flooded to death .
Love my setup works better than I thought it ever would .
Dibs
Macka17
Weight is a considerable problem when you have a lot of stored energy
9.5 kW-hr of LFP in our fifth wheel weight approximately 110 kg. Equivalent lead acid would be over
400 kg which would be more on hitch and rear axle than recommended. We have dualie rear end on our 2006 Chevie 350
diesel. 1400 W if solar ganged in two series for 90 V to controller. Have not tied into line power in two years with this system.
4.7 kW-hr of LFP in our 2002 Roadtrek is about 55 kg. Equivalent lead acid would be 110 kg and there is no room in a roadtrek
for four large lead acid batteries. Got the used Roadtrek for 14 weeks in Newfoundland and Labrador. Lots of boondocking/
free camping spots in NE Canada for a Roadtrek, not so many for a 10 m fifth wheel. Just got back from 14 weeks in Mexico
where there are great places such as San Cristobal de las Casas in Chiapas that you could not get in with anything over 6.5 m.
If you did get in you would never get out. Thankfully my wife Elaine has gotten us out of two places my navigating got us into in
San Miguel del Allende and Baja California. We did plug in while in San Cristobal and Patzcuaro due to rain and trees.
We have heavy duty battery chargers on both rigs due to "dirty" power in a lot of places. Have had micro-waves destroyed
in Baja and Yucatan.
Only problems with LFP besides cost is high and low temperatures. We have blowers that come if temperature got to high but it never has.
Have a blower in the Roadtrek that comes on at 3 C to blow internal air into battery suite compartment. We have 110 V (we live in North
America) and 12 V outlets in 5th wheel to run 30 W or 50 W bulbs to keep compartment above 0 C. We have had ambient down to -8 C and
this kept compartment above 3 C.
Reed and Elaine (currently at 2500 m in mountains of northern New Mexico where it does get below 0 C and is still snowing at times -
but the hummingbirds have returned from Mexico and Central America
-- Edited by Reed on Friday 28th of April 2017 10:06:50 AM
As far as the weight comparison, a 100Ah AGM deep cycle battery should weight between 30kg to 32kg, it just takes that much lead to store 100Ah at a C20 discharge rate, any lighter than 30kg says it is not really a 100Ah at C20 rate discharge battery, maybe at a C100 rate @ 28kg. The same 100Ah packed and strapped Li prismatic cell battery weighs 15kg, but that is not the end of the comparison, if 12v is used as the end of useable capacity bench mark only 50% of the AGM battery can be use, so now 2 x 100Ah AGM batteries are required to get 100Ah before the voltage drops below 12v under a 10 amp or higher load. The same 100Ah Li battery will deliver all 100Ah under the same conditions and still remain above 12v, so now the real comparison is 2 x 100Ah AGM weighing in @ 60kg+ and a 100Ah Li weighing in at 15kg, so the difference is huge really.
As far as dirty power, sadly we suffer the same here in places, including major cities. After having a number of fridges, washing machines, stereos and microwaves destroyed by power spikes we had ended up running everything through the inverter and charging the battery via old dumb chargers when the sun didn't do its duty, they are near bullet proof because there is next to nothing in them that can be harmed, but the transformers hum quite loud on occasions. Since we moved to South Australia I haven't had a chance to set up a similar system for the house...... we think we may have lost a few appliances this morning as things went pear-shaped before we lost all power, still need to check out just what has happened.
T1 Terry
T1 Terry -We ran into folks a year ago in Yucatan that plugged into what was supposed to be a 120 V outlet near Oaxaca, Mexico
but it was 220 V. Burned out all their electrical utilities: air conditioning, microwave just as you have managed to do. Son set up
both vehicles with Meanwell battery chargers so we do the same as you have done. These will work with AC from 90 to 254 V. They
will also work with DC if one were ever able to find a DC outlet.
We tossed the 50amp (120 V) power cord (weighed to much), and then tossed 20 amp replacement and now just use a 15 amp (120 V) power cords for
both the 10 m 5th wheel and the Roadtrek
We ran into the same couple in San Miguel del Allende and spent time in the area with them and then traveled with them to the
border. The guy has dual US/Australian citizenship and he spent half an hour working things out with the US Immigration
officials. He apparently participated in sailboat racing and was in one race from Melbourne or Sydney to Perth via Darwin.
Reed and Elaine
-- Edited by Reed on Saturday 29th of April 2017 05:12:54 AM
A multi voltage charger would be a must if power supplies are that unreliable, fortunately we don't have that sort of voltage problems over here, just spikes and under voltage causing motor burn outs.
T1 Terry