First I want to thank all that answered my post on fridges (3 way or compressor). As always you have helped immensely. Anyway now. We will be off for the big lap taking approx. 12 months and as we have a 4 wheel drive and a good off road caravan we are wondering if we should invest in a winch. We will have maxi tracks already. I am not one to want to do the full on rough stuff but I wonder if there are some good spots to free camp where we would not venture into without the assurance of a winch. We have not done much OFF road camping just ROUGH road camping up the Cape and Weipa area and the Gulf. Also wondering if there is a big difference in the quality and ease of use of winches?
Kim
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:17 AM Jan 9, 2017
Kim, we travel some extreme conditions in the OKA from time to time and in an F350 before that over some 25 years. We have been bogged many times and almost always get ourselves out of difficulty without assistance.
We have never carried sand/mud mats.
A winch is a very big expense and they are very heavy and while it can be extremely useful, that usefulness is typically limited in application and rarely used. It is almost never used when travelling with other people.
The most common recovery is from bogging in soft sand when looking for a remote camp site.
The most useful recovery tool for being bogged (in sand or mud) is a superior and reliable compressor. Almost all bogging recovery can be performed with reduced tyre pressures.
The second most useful tool is a snatch strap.
I would strongly recommend you attend a good quality course to learn how to use recovery equipment. It is not obvious and can kill people when done inappropriately. When performed properly, recovery is a simple, safe and stress free operation.
Cheers,
Peter
macka17 said
12:10 PM Jan 9, 2017
Winch. Maxi Tracks. Compressor.
AND a good shovel to bury one of your spares to anchor off if no mates with you.
It's a god idea to take full recce kit Just in case.
Others passing can then help
and a loooong length of rope.
Just on case that fence\tree ock is JUUSt out of reach.
-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 9th of January 2017 12:12:07 PM
Delta18 said
01:26 PM Jan 9, 2017
Remember that in most cases a winch can only pull you further into the s&^t.
As you said you don't plan to do full on rough stuff so your existing Maxi Trax & a compressor should be all you need.
All the heavy stuff you could fit can be left home so you have more room for wine & beer!.
Most cars with a winch have never used them.
rgren2 said
02:02 PM Jan 9, 2017
Most cars with a winch have never used them.
A brave statement!
Do you have statistical evidence or is this your own observation?
macka17 said
02:21 PM Jan 9, 2017
Mine lived on 3 cars. rewound once several clutch cones renewed.
and I think, 3 Solenoids.
US one. Solenoid.controller box sat on top of bar. open bottom sides for cooling.
ANd water. and mud and...
Great winch though.
Would be over 20 yrs old now.
Hey Jim said
02:40 PM Jan 9, 2017
Hi Kim,
I had a 6000kg winch on my Parado for 15 years. used it once to pull a tree stump into a trailer.
I have always used Maxi Tracks and sill carry them.
A few years back A 76 series Toyota tray back got buried up to his diffs in a Turtle Rookery up Exmouth way.
No One would drive in to help not even us As there is a $5000 fine back then.
I asked for six cartons of Carlton Mid If I could get him out. He laughed at me and my Maxi's.
So off we went. Under his rear wheels they went.
I told him when they get pulled in, don't stop and keep going in the same tracks backwards. He came out first go and he delivered the beer.
Maxi tracks for me forever.
Jim
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 9th of January 2017 02:40:34 PM
Yabbietol said
05:41 PM Jan 9, 2017
Basic recovery gear should be a long handled shovel and some Max tracks or Treads (both Australian made). A compressor is very useful, as if you lower your tyre pressures in many (but not all) bogged situations you will get out with little fuss. Lower tyre pressures will often stop you from getting bogged in the first place, but of course you will have to re-inflate them at some stage. Towing chains are a good item to carry if someone can pull you out, snatch straps are ok, but should be used with caution as they can release a lot of energy an hurt people and vehicles.
Do not use winches in any situation unless you have had training in their correct and safe use, they can and do kill people. Power winches with poly ropes instead of steel ropes are safer, but still can kill and injure. Hand operated winches such a a Tifor (such as Tu16) are more versatile than power winches, but are heavy and take a lot of setting up and can still hurt you. Before you even consider buying any winch get some proper training from a registered trainer in their use and do not think you can learn safe winching from some cowboy in the bush who pretends to know everything. Winches are very dangerous.
I have years experience in recovering heavy vehicles. I was an officer in charge of an Australian Army heavy vehicle (including armoured) recovery RAME unit and I have also recovered bogged 13 tonne bush fire tankers. Many people will tell you they are experts at recovery, do not believe most of them. Self recovery is either very easy, a bit of digging, something for traction and right tyres with correct tyre pressures; or recovery becomes a major operation during which the risks increase exponentially. One of the best set ups for a difficult recovery is another vehicle on firm ground towing with correctly rated towing chains attached to rated recovery points. There is a new product developed in Cains Qld called "Bog Out" not used it, but the video looks like it is relatively safe and simple to use, it might be worth a look.
Just do not go out and buy a winch, without getting the proper training, they are very dangerous. Basic kit is long handed shovel, some sort of tracks (even sticks,mats or hessian sacks) and a compressor. If you cannot get out with basic kit get help or if in very remote area use your Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) if in real danger.
Vince said
07:00 PM Jan 9, 2017
Hi Kim
You ask if you should invest in a winch. It's a good investment used correctly. If it saves you once it becomes a cheap equipment compared to costly recovery by the professionals.
I have a 12,000Lb winch on my Maverick because it has to get me and what I may be towing at the time on safe ground if needed and size can matter here.
Yes I have had two occasions to use it in the 20 odd years and both times I was glad I had it. Also i have used it to recover others as well.
If considering costs you can buy a good winch these days for around the same cost as an Epirb, and both can be your saviour if in trouble.
I highly recommend, if you haven't already, do a recovery course which can be done at most 4wd clubs by becoming a member or look up accredited organisations that
provide training.
Good luck on the big lap
Cheers Vince
-- Edited by Vince on Monday 9th of January 2017 07:01:50 PM
Mutley said
08:18 PM Jan 9, 2017
The only time I've ever been bogged bad enough to use a winch to pull me out (L/C workmate wagon, bogged to the side steps about 30yrs ago) the cable snapped on the winch pulling it out. Eventually got it out with a tractor. Getting it bogged was 100% my fault.
I have never had a winch since, nor missed having one. Done a LOTS of outback dirt travel since & have never had to use Maxtrax, or a snatch strap (don't own either of them)
I make my share of mistakes, like everyone else does, but like to think I only make the same mistake once. Getting that L/C bogged all those years ago sharpened my eyes & my sense of caution.
I agree the suggestion that a driving course would be money much better spent :)
dogbox said
08:52 PM Jan 9, 2017
rgren2 wrote:
Most cars with a winch have never used them.
A brave statement!
Do you have statistical evidence or is this your own observation?
I have fitted winches to all my 4x4 never had to use it to recover myself from a situation but have used it to recover other vehicles bogged an to move heavy things you may never need one unless you are a die hard offroader an most of us would not go to places like that,let alone try an tow a trailer thru most of the time you would use 4x4 is in sand or mud an as stated maxi trax an a long handle shovel will sort that out or an assortment of straps an let someone else do the pulling
iana said
09:25 PM Jan 9, 2017
I might be way out of my depth here, but years ago I nearly brought a winch that was hand operated and crept along the cable. It seems logical to me if you get bogged, being able to pull out the vehicle backwards or forwards would be an advantage.
blaze said
10:31 PM Jan 9, 2017
buy your self a 6/7000 lb winch with dyna rope and mount it on a bracket/mount that will slide into your towbar receiver, have a towbar receiver fitted to the rear of the van also, fit a couple of heavy duty Anderson plugs, buy and use a sheave to halve the pulling effort required. When solo vehicle you never want to pull yourself further into the ****
cheers
blaze
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:56 PM Jan 9, 2017
blaze wrote:
buy your self a 6/7000 lb winch with dyna rope and mount it on a bracket/mount that will slide into your towbar receiver, have a towbar receiver fitted to the rear of the van also, fit a couple of heavy duty Anderson plugs, buy and use a sheave to halve the pulling effort required. When solo vehicle you never want to pull yourself further into the **** cheers blaze
This is a 16,500lb Warn that can be used as you describe or as shown in the pic and attached to any part of the vehicle and pull in any direction.
Works extremely well, but weighs about 70kg. All "ropes" are Dynema.
Well as usual I am ecstatic at the common sense answers I have received, thank you. We have decided as most of you have suggested to go with the long handled shovel and the, acutally, Treds. Thank you again.
Kim
gandk said
10:06 AM Jan 10, 2017
Also will look up the little gadget above, my husband thinks it is called a turfer. He used them during his days at the coal mines.
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:54 AM Jan 10, 2017
We used a Turfor for some 12 years.
To be effective, you need a big one. They are very heavy (but not as heavy as an electric winch) you will also need at least one snatch block and straps to anchor it to something but most of all, they are extremely hard work and extremely slow.
Cheers,
Peter
Aus-Kiwi said
12:52 PM Jan 10, 2017
The other option is a fitting that fit on your wheel nuts a rope to a tree or spike driven into ground . Any wheel slippage ? The rope pulls you out . It's like a small rim with a fitting to tie the rope . It's simple and light . Can be used on any wheel . Or buy one of these ? http://www.bushwinch.com.au
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 10th of January 2017 12:57:49 PM
C00P said
01:56 PM Jan 10, 2017
The correct spelling is "TIRFOR" but Turfor will get you to the right pages on Google...
C00P
Yabbietol said
05:20 PM Jan 10, 2017
Have a look at the bog out I mentioned above, not used it, but looks safe simple, light and cheap. Interestingly they sell them as pairs, which would be for the most difficult situations and singly for less extreme bogs.
Tirfor's are very good but need practice to use and they take a lot space and are heavy and as mentioned above can be hard work. They also use a steel cable under a lot of tension which is dangerous. Most bogged 4WD need a Tu16 which is quite large; they are reliable and only need muscle power.
Generally just keep it simple with tracks, compressor and long handled shovel.
Delta18 said
08:25 PM Jan 10, 2017
Better yet get some instruction & don't get bogged. Just like water crossings, if in doubt walk it & if
still in doubt, turn back.
gazza018 said
08:53 PM Jan 10, 2017
Gday kim I would agree with all the comments made by guru how ever if this does not
fit with you have a look at the 4x4 winch comparo think I have spelt that right any way
the winch that won was one of the cheapest on the market $900 if you do get one you
probably wont use it I had a iron man winch for 3 years never got used but you never know
hope this helps Gazza
macka17 said
01:19 AM Jan 11, 2017
The most important. Apart from not getting stuck in first place.
Is THINK b4 you leap. and 99% of time. Come out backwards.
You KNOW it's good. You bin there.. Same as a boat.
Next is training. whether winching cranking or towing.
I, like bloke above did Reme Recce in Army.
He was ossifer. Me a VM.
Mostly we did ARV and BARV. Armoured recovery. Tanks etc.
Mostly it was Sarg and Luey for up to an hr plotting which you'll put where.
Then which put what strain on when to get the beast out the right way up
hopefully with it's tracks on. Or dragging them when we blew the pins first.
Then we'd start. Normally a 3 or 4 way pull for stability.
Looks easy. But a lot of experienced brainwork gained over yrs.
went into it b4 one sling or pin was put. on .
Small, light, is and can be, still dangerous, Check it and see first.
B4 jumping in to it.
Preferably with double winch cable to main line to ease pressure on winch.
and a blanket etc over cable to absorb whip if it goes.
Yrs ago I saw a tug stern braking a coal ship into close berth.
Cable went at ships eye.
Snaked back and Cut through near half of tugs bridgedeck b4 dieing.
and they reinforced for such.
I was around 10 at time and still remember the crack and tearing sound.
We were on other tug. Mate's dad was skipper..
NEVER get or stay within length, Radius, range of any tow cable ope or shackle.
Experience is king. pay the $$$'s and get some. First.
First I want to thank all that answered my post on fridges (3 way or compressor). As always you have helped immensely. Anyway now. We will be off for the big lap taking approx. 12 months and as we have a 4 wheel drive and a good off road caravan we are wondering if we should invest in a winch. We will have maxi tracks already. I am not one to want to do the full on rough stuff but I wonder if there are some good spots to free camp where we would not venture into without the assurance of a winch. We have not done much OFF road camping just ROUGH road camping up the Cape and Weipa area and the Gulf. Also wondering if there is a big difference in the quality and ease of use of winches?
Kim
We have never carried sand/mud mats.
A winch is a very big expense and they are very heavy and while it can be extremely useful, that usefulness is typically limited in application and rarely used. It is almost never used when travelling with other people.
The most common recovery is from bogging in soft sand when looking for a remote camp site.
The most useful recovery tool for being bogged (in sand or mud) is a superior and reliable compressor. Almost all bogging recovery can be performed with reduced tyre pressures.
The second most useful tool is a snatch strap.
I would strongly recommend you attend a good quality course to learn how to use recovery equipment. It is not obvious and can kill people when done inappropriately. When performed properly, recovery is a simple, safe and stress free operation.
Cheers,
Peter
Winch. Maxi Tracks. Compressor.
AND a good shovel to bury one of your spares to anchor off
if no mates with you.
It's a god idea to take full recce kit Just in case.
Others passing can then help
and a loooong length of rope.
Just on case that fence\tree
ock is JUUSt out of reach.
-- Edited by macka17 on Monday 9th of January 2017 12:12:07 PM
Remember that in most cases a winch can only pull you further into the s&^t.
As you said you don't plan to do full on rough stuff so your existing Maxi Trax & a compressor should be all you need.
All the heavy stuff you could fit can be left home so you have more room for wine & beer!.
Most cars with a winch have never used them.
Most cars with a winch have never used them.
A brave statement!
Do you have statistical evidence or is this your own observation?
and I think, 3 Solenoids.
US one. Solenoid.controller box sat on top of bar. open bottom sides for cooling.
ANd water. and mud and...
Great winch though.
Would be over 20 yrs old now.
Hi Kim,
I had a 6000kg winch on my Parado for 15 years. used it once to pull a tree stump into a trailer.
I have always used Maxi Tracks and sill carry them.
A few years back A 76 series Toyota tray back got buried up to his diffs in a Turtle Rookery up Exmouth way.
No One would drive in to help not even us As there is a $5000 fine back then.
I asked for six cartons of Carlton Mid If I could get him out. He laughed at me and my Maxi's.
So off we went. Under his rear wheels they went.
I told him when they get pulled in, don't stop and keep going in the same tracks backwards. He came out first go and he delivered the beer.
Maxi tracks for me forever.
Jim
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 9th of January 2017 02:40:34 PM
Do not use winches in any situation unless you have had training in their correct and safe use, they can and do kill people. Power winches with poly ropes instead of steel ropes are safer, but still can kill and injure. Hand operated winches such a a Tifor (such as Tu16) are more versatile than power winches, but are heavy and take a lot of setting up and can still hurt you. Before you even consider buying any winch get some proper training from a registered trainer in their use and do not think you can learn safe winching from some cowboy in the bush who pretends to know everything. Winches are very dangerous.
I have years experience in recovering heavy vehicles. I was an officer in charge of an Australian Army heavy vehicle (including armoured) recovery RAME unit and I have also recovered bogged 13 tonne bush fire tankers. Many people will tell you they are experts at recovery, do not believe most of them. Self recovery is either very easy, a bit of digging, something for traction and right tyres with correct tyre pressures; or recovery becomes a major operation during which the risks increase exponentially. One of the best set ups for a difficult recovery is another vehicle on firm ground towing with correctly rated towing chains attached to rated recovery points. There is a new product developed in Cains Qld called "Bog Out" not used it, but the video looks like it is relatively safe and simple to use, it might be worth a look.
Just do not go out and buy a winch, without getting the proper training, they are very dangerous. Basic kit is long handed shovel, some sort of tracks (even sticks,mats or hessian sacks) and a compressor. If you cannot get out with basic kit get help or if in very remote area use your Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) if in real danger.
Hi Kim
You ask if you should invest in a winch. It's a good investment used correctly. If it saves you once it becomes a cheap equipment compared to costly recovery by the professionals.
I have a 12,000Lb winch on my Maverick because it has to get me and what I may be towing at the time on safe ground if needed and size can matter here.
Yes I have had two occasions to use it in the 20 odd years and both times I was glad I had it. Also i have used it to recover others as well.
If considering costs you can buy a good winch these days for around the same cost as an Epirb, and both can be your saviour if in trouble.
I highly recommend, if you haven't already, do a recovery course which can be done at most 4wd clubs by becoming a member or look up accredited organisations that
provide training.
Good luck on the big lap
Cheers
Vince
-- Edited by Vince on Monday 9th of January 2017 07:01:50 PM
I have never had a winch since, nor missed having one. Done a LOTS of outback dirt travel since & have never had to use Maxtrax, or a snatch strap (don't own either of them)
I make my share of mistakes, like everyone else does, but like to think I only make the same mistake once. Getting that L/C bogged all those years ago sharpened my eyes & my sense of caution.
I agree the suggestion that a driving course would be money much better spent :)
I have fitted winches to all my 4x4 never had to use it to recover myself from a situation but have used it to recover other vehicles bogged an to move heavy things you may never need one unless you are a die hard offroader an most of us would not go to places like that,let alone try an tow a trailer thru
most of the time you would use 4x4 is in sand or mud an as stated maxi trax an a long handle shovel will sort that out or an assortment of straps an let someone else do the pulling
cheers
blaze
This is a 16,500lb Warn that can be used as you describe or as shown in the pic and attached to any part of the vehicle and pull in any direction.
Works extremely well, but weighs about 70kg. All "ropes" are Dynema.
Cheers,
Peter
This is what I was trying to describe. No other attachments required.
Kim
To be effective, you need a big one. They are very heavy (but not as heavy as an electric winch) you will also need at least one snatch block and straps to anchor it to something but most of all, they are extremely hard work and extremely slow.
Cheers,
Peter
The other option is a fitting that fit on your wheel nuts a rope to a tree or spike driven into ground . Any wheel slippage ? The rope pulls you out . It's like a small rim with a fitting to tie the rope . It's simple and light . Can be used on any wheel . Or buy one of these ? http://www.bushwinch.com.au
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 10th of January 2017 12:57:49 PM
C00P
www.bogout.com
Tirfor's are very good but need practice to use and they take a lot space and are heavy and as mentioned above can be hard work. They also use a steel cable under a lot of tension which is dangerous. Most bogged 4WD need a Tu16 which is quite large; they are reliable and only need muscle power.
Generally just keep it simple with tracks, compressor and long handled shovel.
Better yet get some instruction & don't get bogged. Just like water crossings, if in doubt walk it & if
still in doubt, turn back.
fit with you have a look at the 4x4 winch comparo think I have spelt that right any way
the winch that won was one of the cheapest on the market $900 if you do get one you
probably wont use it I had a iron man winch for 3 years never got used but you never know
hope this helps Gazza
Is THINK b4 you leap. and 99% of time. Come out backwards.
You KNOW it's good. You bin there.. Same as a boat.
Next is training. whether winching cranking or towing.
I, like bloke above did Reme Recce in Army.
He was ossifer. Me a VM.
Mostly we did ARV and BARV. Armoured recovery. Tanks etc.
Mostly it was Sarg and Luey for up to an hr plotting which you'll put where.
Then which put what strain on when to get the beast out the right way up
hopefully with it's tracks on. Or dragging them when we blew the pins first.
Then we'd start. Normally a 3 or 4 way pull for stability.
Looks easy. But a lot of experienced brainwork gained over yrs.
went into it b4 one sling or pin was put. on .
Small, light, is and can be, still dangerous, Check it and see first.
B4 jumping in to it.
Preferably with double winch cable to main line to ease pressure on winch.
and a blanket etc over cable to absorb whip if it goes.
Yrs ago I saw a tug stern braking a coal ship into close berth.
Cable went at ships eye.
Snaked back and Cut through near half of tugs bridgedeck b4 dieing.
and they reinforced for such.
I was around 10 at time and still remember the crack and tearing sound.
We were on other tug. Mate's dad was skipper..
NEVER get or stay within length, Radius, range of any tow cable
ope or shackle.
Experience is king. pay the $$$'s and get some. First.