We originally decided to try the new van without a WDH for the Toyota Hilux ute (2WD petrol) and then purchase one if we thought it necessary.
When we picked the van up - filled with water and gas - deflection down on tow ball was 300mm - 302 to be exact.
Loaded for this trip deflection down is 365mm. That's a difference on only about 2 and a half inches for us old timers.
Didn't put much weight in the front tunnel boot and carried most of the gear (screens, table, chairs etc.) in the tub of the tug.
Van travels well without any steering wander, tail sway or any other nasty tendencies.
I haven't yet weighted the total rig or tow ball weight.
I will most probably add a Waeco/Engel to the ute at a later date so that will add a little more to the tug.
I feel the van behaves well and does not need it but any thoughts on the deflection down of tow ball and need for WDH?????
Izabarack said
04:32 PM Oct 6, 2016
Peter and JudyH wrote:
Loaded for this trip deflection down is 365mm. That's a difference on only about 2 and a half inches for us old timers.
365 mm divided by 24.5 comes in at more than 14 inches. Perhaps you leave a decimal point out.
How long is the van, what is the distance between towball and the first spring hanger, and do you have a proportional (either manual or inertial) brake controller? Using only a measure of how far the hitch goes down does not help much in working our whether or not a WDH would be useful.
Iza
Peter and JudyH said
05:09 PM Oct 6, 2016
Izabarack wrote:
Peter and JudyH wrote:
Loaded for this trip deflection down is 365mm. That's a difference on only about 2 and a half inches for us old timers.
365 mm divided by 24.5 comes in at more than 14 inches. Perhaps you leave a decimal point out.
How long is the van, what is the distance between towball and the first spring hanger, and do you have a proportional (either manual or inertial) brake controller? Using only a measure of how far the hitch goes down does not help much in working our whether or not a WDH would be useful.
Iza
Iza,
The difference I meant was from the 302 to 365 on pick up and loaded for trip
The van is 6.83 travel length with tow ball to first spring hanger approx. 4.2m.
Have proportional inertial electronic brake control Tekonsha Primus IQ
Other info that may be handy....Tow ball mass of van from factory 157kg...Ute 250kg.
Thanks
-- Edited by Peter and JudyH on Thursday 6th of October 2016 05:12:04 PM
PeterD said
05:50 PM Oct 6, 2016
Peter and JudyH wrote:When we picked the van up - filled with water and gas - deflection down on tow ball was 300mm - 302 to be exact.
Loaded for this trip deflection down is 365mm. That's a difference on only about 2 and a half inches for us old timers.
Peter, you did not get what Iza was telling you. You stuffed your measurements up somewhere. 365 mm is 14.37". If the rear end of your Hilux dropped that far then something is extremely wrong, your ball weight is far higher than you are thinking it is. Forget millimetres, go back and measure the ball drop in inches, you may be able to handle them a little easier.
In answer to your WDH question, my industry towing mass guide tells me that Toyota say "Load level hitch req." Load level hitch = WDH. What does your drivers handbook instruct you to do?
Peter and JudyH said
06:03 PM Oct 6, 2016
Sorry, appears the old memory is fading fast and I have not put my thoughts down properly.
Simply.....
Height of towball - Currently Ute UNLOADED = 365mm from ground
Height of towball with van ATTACHED = 302mm from ground.
I used the word deflection incorrectly...............
I'm now off to have a beer ......or 2
PeterD said
06:25 PM Oct 6, 2016
Thanks for the clarification. A 63 mm drop does OK for your rig. You now just need to clear up what directions you get from your drivers handbook regarding the WDH (load leveller.)
C00P said
07:56 PM Oct 6, 2016
When you get your weighing done, get the front and rear axle weights (with the van attached) as well, and compare them with your owner's manual which should specify the maximum allowable. When you add anything extra to the tub, add that weight to the rear axle weight as well.
You will find that the front axle weight will decrease when the van is on, and any extra weight loaded behind the rear axle will increase the rear axle weight and decrease the front axle weight. You may find that your load brings you closer to the max weight for your rear axle, with corresponding extra wear on bearings, suspension, etc.
A WDH shifts load from the rear axle to the front axle by stiffening the articulation of the ball coupling in the vertical plane.
If the front axle gets too light, you may have difficulty steering in a situation where something (eg crosswind, big rig overtaking) induces a sway.
However, all may be well with your setup, but these weights will give you an idea of how much margin you may have.
Many people are surprised how much weight is on the rear axle when towing a van.
Cheers
C00P
Ron-D said
09:26 AM Oct 7, 2016
Measure from the ground to the top of the wheel arches front and rear of your tug without the van attached,then hitch the van onto your vehicle and measure the same again,if the rear drops say 2 inches the front should also drop 2 inches as well, this can only usually happen with a WDH to adjust it .
WAssa41 said
09:28 AM Oct 7, 2016
You need to measure the height at the centre of the front wheel Archie before and after connecting the van. From memory this should be no more than 5mm. ( check the Hayman Reece site)
About 75-80%. Of your braking is done by the front wheels, when you brake the weight is transferred to the front wheels which increases the foot print size of the tyres which gives you the grip need. If the front of the tug goes up when you connect the van, when you brake the front of the tug has to go pass the level position before any extra weight gets to the front tyres.
You could travel around Aus without any problems BUT if you need to brake in an emergency you could well be in trouble.
Your lives are worth more than the cost of a WDH
Wassa
macka17 said
04:30 PM Oct 8, 2016
Hi.
WDH.(Weight Distribution Hitch.
Says it all.
Transfers weight from rear axle of car. to front axle of car. to help the steering.
Basically.
While also distributing some load from front of van and leveling them up Front to back.
When you look at them sideways.
Load and balance car and van. Separately. then bring them together on FLAT.LEVEL ground.
Look along BOTH chassis. they should be level, both ends to the ground.
Now. Look at ball flange (Not top of) and bottom face of cup on van.
Are they level with each other.
Now mount the hitch to ball and stop winding down when load just touching/taken on ball flange.
Measure from bottom of hitch to ground. then wind jack down till weight OFF the jockey wheel. JUST.
That difference is what you play with.
Usually with your chain links.
I also. at same time. measure from top of rims, front and back on car. before loading van weight to car.
Then again after.
try to get the difference between prev figures inside 1\2 in at front and rear. With the chains.
The nearer to "0" the better
If one of them is NOT level when you coupled. Compared to other. IE Van rear, Up or down.
You stuffed up. Start again.
have fun.
I've been doing it over 50 yrs. and still occasionally stuff up.
Mainly forget to click the lock lever back on the ball. (I trigger it UP out of way)
We always go for a walk round rig. before getting in car and driving off.
Di One way. Self, the other. Doors/windows. bottles. anything loose.
What one misses. Hopefully, t'other catches.
I've also got an LED Heat sensor gun ($25\E,Bay) in car.
check tyres.hubs and bearings "every time" we stop.
Only Takes a quick walk around b4 getting a coffee.
ALSO.
Everytime you take off.
B4 getting into cruise mode.
Just slide the manual lever on trailer brake. Make sure it IS working.
It's known as responsibility's. One day......
Grey fox said
11:08 PM Oct 8, 2016
Peter, even if the rig looks level the roads today cause what is called porpusing and wdh with some tension on the chains will help keep the front wheel on the black stuff. Safety first.
-- Edited by Grey fox on Saturday 8th of October 2016 11:09:52 PM
C00P said
07:11 PM Oct 9, 2016
Macka does a walk-around before departure, which is a good idea.
I've taken it a step further and I use a written checklist (both inside and out)on a file card which I go through before departure. Ensures I haven't forgotten anything. If it's good enough for airline pilots, well.....
Cheers
C00P
macka17 said
08:57 PM Oct 9, 2016
COOP.
Everybody has their way of doing things.
Some more efficient. than others.
As long as primary items covered. 99% of us will be fine.
Setting each veh to each other, b4 starting is most important
After that everything "should" come together with sensibilities.
Different people have different priorities.But normally all finish at same point.
We originally decided to try the new van without a WDH for the Toyota Hilux ute (2WD petrol) and then purchase one if we thought it necessary.
When we picked the van up - filled with water and gas - deflection down on tow ball was 300mm - 302 to be exact.
Loaded for this trip deflection down is 365mm. That's a difference on only about 2 and a half inches for us old timers.
Didn't put much weight in the front tunnel boot and carried most of the gear (screens, table, chairs etc.) in the tub of the tug.
Van travels well without any steering wander, tail sway or any other nasty tendencies.
I haven't yet weighted the total rig or tow ball weight.
I will most probably add a Waeco/Engel to the ute at a later date so that will add a little more to the tug.
I feel the van behaves well and does not need it but any thoughts on the deflection down of tow ball and need for WDH?????
365 mm divided by 24.5 comes in at more than 14 inches. Perhaps you leave a decimal point out.
How long is the van, what is the distance between towball and the first spring hanger, and do you have a proportional (either manual or inertial) brake controller? Using only a measure of how far the hitch goes down does not help much in working our whether or not a WDH would be useful.
Iza
Iza,
The difference I meant was from the 302 to 365 on pick up and loaded for trip
The van is 6.83 travel length with tow ball to first spring hanger approx. 4.2m.
Have proportional inertial electronic brake control Tekonsha Primus IQ
Other info that may be handy....Tow ball mass of van from factory 157kg...Ute 250kg.
Thanks
-- Edited by Peter and JudyH on Thursday 6th of October 2016 05:12:04 PM
Peter, you did not get what Iza was telling you. You stuffed your measurements up somewhere. 365 mm is 14.37". If the rear end of your Hilux dropped that far then something is extremely wrong, your ball weight is far higher than you are thinking it is. Forget millimetres, go back and measure the ball drop in inches, you may be able to handle them a little easier.
In answer to your WDH question, my industry towing mass guide tells me that Toyota say "Load level hitch req." Load level hitch = WDH. What does your drivers handbook instruct you to do?
Sorry, appears the old memory is fading fast and I have not put my thoughts down properly.
Simply.....
Height of towball - Currently Ute UNLOADED = 365mm from ground
Height of towball with van ATTACHED = 302mm from ground.
I used the word deflection incorrectly...............
I'm now off to have a beer ......or 2
You will find that the front axle weight will decrease when the van is on, and any extra weight loaded behind the rear axle will increase the rear axle weight and decrease the front axle weight. You may find that your load brings you closer to the max weight for your rear axle, with corresponding extra wear on bearings, suspension, etc.
A WDH shifts load from the rear axle to the front axle by stiffening the articulation of the ball coupling in the vertical plane.
If the front axle gets too light, you may have difficulty steering in a situation where something (eg crosswind, big rig overtaking) induces a sway.
However, all may be well with your setup, but these weights will give you an idea of how much margin you may have.
Many people are surprised how much weight is on the rear axle when towing a van.
Cheers
C00P
Measure from the ground to the top of the wheel arches front and rear of your tug without the van attached,then hitch the van onto your vehicle and measure the same again,if the rear drops say 2 inches the front should also drop 2 inches as well, this can only usually happen with a WDH to adjust it .
You need to measure the height at the centre of the front wheel Archie before and after connecting the van. From memory this should be no more than 5mm. ( check the Hayman Reece site)
About 75-80%. Of your braking is done by the front wheels, when you brake the weight is transferred to the front wheels which increases the foot print size of the tyres which gives you the grip need. If the front of the tug goes up when you connect the van, when you brake the front of the tug has to go pass the level position before any extra weight gets to the front tyres.
You could travel around Aus without any problems BUT if you need to brake in an emergency you could well be in trouble.
Your lives are worth more than the cost of a WDH
Wassa
WDH.(Weight Distribution Hitch.
Says it all.
Transfers weight from rear axle of car. to front axle of car. to help the steering.
Basically.
While also distributing some load from front of van and leveling them up Front to back.
When you look at them sideways.
Load and balance car and van. Separately. then bring them together on FLAT.LEVEL ground.
Look along BOTH chassis. they should be level, both ends to the ground.
Now. Look at ball flange (Not top of) and bottom face of cup on van.
Are they level with each other.
No.
Fix that first......
Raise/lower ball. reverse ball arm. spacers, whatever.
Now mount the hitch to ball and stop winding down when load just touching/taken on ball flange.
Measure from bottom of hitch to ground. then wind jack down till weight OFF the jockey wheel. JUST.
That difference is what you play with.
Usually with your chain links.
I also. at same time. measure from top of rims, front and back on car. before loading van weight to car.
Then again after.
try to get the difference between prev figures inside 1\2 in at front and rear. With the chains.
The nearer to "0" the better
If one of them is NOT level when you coupled. Compared to other. IE Van rear, Up or down.
You stuffed up. Start again.
have fun.
I've been doing it over 50 yrs. and still occasionally stuff up.
Mainly forget to click the lock lever back on the ball. (I trigger it UP out of way)
We always go for a walk round rig. before getting in car and driving off.
Di One way. Self, the other. Doors/windows. bottles. anything loose.
What one misses. Hopefully, t'other catches.
I've also got an LED Heat sensor gun ($25\E,Bay) in car.
check tyres.hubs and bearings "every time" we stop.
Only Takes a quick walk around b4 getting a coffee.
ALSO.
Everytime you take off.
B4 getting into cruise mode.
Just slide the manual lever on trailer brake. Make sure it IS working.
It's known as responsibility's. One day......
Peter, even if the rig looks level the roads today cause what is called porpusing and wdh with some tension on the chains will help keep the front wheel on the black stuff. Safety first.
-- Edited by Grey fox on Saturday 8th of October 2016 11:09:52 PM
I've taken it a step further and I use a written checklist (both inside and out)on a file card which I go through before departure. Ensures I haven't forgotten anything. If it's good enough for airline pilots, well.....
Cheers
C00P
Everybody has their way of doing things.
Some more efficient. than others.
As long as primary items covered. 99% of us will be fine.
Setting each veh to each other, b4 starting is most important
After that everything "should" come together with sensibilities.
Different people have different priorities.But normally all finish at same point.