Might be a knee jerk reaction with all of the van rollovers but I started thinking about ESC, but the tug has Dynamic Stability Control my question is if both have stability control will there be conflict between tug and van??????
Micko
macka17 said
01:03 PM Aug 28, 2016
Conflict. Possibly.
a towing instruction course
would be your money much better spent I think....
The driver is the limiting factor in 99% of towing scenarios. It's a completely different ball game to driving a car. Unfortunately a lot have yet to realise.
You have a rig with proper weight balances, within each others weight limits. driven by an "experienced in towing", or getting that way driver. at sensible speeds, limits according to conditions.
You will be the one LEAST likely to have an accident.
Most of these "safety" items built into modern cars, and add ons afterwards. are to con your wallet.and hopefully make the less experienced safer on the road
We didn't have all this crap yrs ago. and had. probably less accidents.
In the caravanning scene anyway. Mainly because we were more concious of the fact.
ALL fools or ill advised, will be accident prone.
All these modern tricks make the inexperienced feel just a little invunerable. The machinery will save me....
Correct hitch. with one of the WDH's to suit. is all you need. as long as rig balanced and safe weight,s, tyres etc wise..
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 28th of August 2016 01:06:54 PM
MICKO said
03:24 PM Aug 28, 2016
Thanks for that Macka,have done a lot of towing and never had a problem probably spending to much time in the van reading about what others have done need to get out more
Cheers
Micko
Possum3 said
05:05 PM Aug 28, 2016
Agree with Macka - My new Avida Multi terrain van came with Alko ESC - nothing but problems, locking van wheels going around corners, serious one wheel skids, etc. Don't do it!
Craig1 said
05:47 PM Aug 28, 2016
Couldnt be happier with Alko Esc, tandem Paramount 18' pop top behind BT50 with the dsc etc. I checked with Alko and Mazda both prior to van purchase. Both reckoned it was a good combo, Alko works on van as closest to primary issues. IMHO. Cheers Craig
Brisand said
06:17 PM Aug 28, 2016
Macka17,
I have had the experience on a previous van with esc and it was worth the money saved my van and possibly car, I think your comments are lacking knowledge of just how good some of these newer safety products are.
Never condemn a product without having sufficient knowledge !!!
erad said
07:25 PM Aug 28, 2016
Interesting question... I think it is possible that the stability control of the tug may make things worse for the caravan if it starts wagging around. The stability control will sense the swerving and will then apply brakes to the appropriate wheels on the car. This is the last thing you want when your caravan is taking control of the whole rig - you have to accelerate to pull the van out of the wagging mode, certainly not brake because that could make things worse.
I have had friends who have the ALKO system and they rave over it, but I don't have it and I have no way of fitting it to my van at present anyway. I just drive carefully and avoid traffic wherever possible. The towball load on my rig is rather heavy and the few times I have tried to unsettle the van, it cancelled itself out very quickly.
Craig1 said
01:54 PM Aug 29, 2016
Think of a dog wagging his tail, to stop him just grab tail, if a really happy dog who wags tail and his hips, you have to grab both tail and hips. QED, stability on tug = hips, alko esc = tail
cheers again, Craig
Ron-D said
04:07 PM Aug 29, 2016
Three caravans and been a camper all my life and never ever slightly looked like having a van wiggle it's tail, I have Esc on the new Van ,to me it's just another useless thing that needs looking after,my vans well balanced and drven by an guy that drives at a sensible pace I know the thing will never get used,unless it malfunctions and that would be a real pain in the butt...
PeterD said
04:44 PM Aug 29, 2016
Possum3 wrote:
Agree with Macka - My new Avida Multi terrain van came with Alko ESC - nothing but problems, locking van wheels going around corners, serious one wheel skids, etc. Don't do it!
Sounds like yours was not installed properly or is a faulty unit. Yours is way out of character. If the fitting agent can't correct it I suggest you contact Al-Ko direct and complain.
Vince said
05:24 PM Aug 29, 2016
Interesting scenario MICKO.
I would imagine in a situation that required both to be used they would operate autonomously and therefore do the job they are designed for.
Hope you never have to find out though.
Cheers
Vince
Yabbietol said
07:09 PM Aug 30, 2016
Hello
We have had a Dexter Sway Control (DSC) fitted to our van for about a year and so far have found it very good. It is very reassuring when towing.
I will attempt to answer the OP's question. I have done some reading on how the DSC would interact with a system such as Toyota's Trailer Sway Control (TSC). http://www3.toyota.com.au/hilux/features/safety/trailer-sway-control
The TSC is designed to act when the trailer (caravan) affects the vehicle and is very similar to the normal electronic vehicle stability control, which is required on all new cars sold in Australia and has been required for a few years. The TSC applies the brake on the side affected much quicker than a person can and if required applies brakes on each side of the Tow as required, to damp the oscillation (sway). It will complement a caravan ESC or DSC or if your caravan system fails or does not cope the TSC will help.
This next part is a bit techo, I have tried to make it easy to understand, hope I have succeeded. All these systems are operated by accelerometers have preset limits in g force (multiple of force of gravity) in various directions. If the accelerometer detects movement too fast in the wrong direction (e.g. sideways) the stability system applies the brakes. ALKO ESC applies both caravan brakes at the same time, similar to pressing the button on the brake controller, the DSC applies the caravan brake on the side that is required to damp the sway. The TSC applies the brakes of the Tow to the side that is moving too fast in the wrong direction.
So in a real bad situation TSC will help the DSC (or ESC) and in a less serious situation the DSC or ESC should solve the problem without activating the TSC. They are good things and will reduce the number of caravan accidents as the car ones have significantly reduced the number of single vehicle car accidents.
Hope this helps
Bryan said
07:17 PM Aug 30, 2016
Very happy with my Alko ESC. Although I'm confident of my driving and towing skills, the ESC gives me peace of mind in case some idiot does something stupid and I have to take severe evasive action. I hope it never happens but I look at my ESC as an added life insurance.
macka17 said
05:52 PM Aug 31, 2016
Brisand.
Fair enuff.
As I said. To help the "not so competent".
But If it goes wrong.will cause even more problems.
I'm old school.
Experience and a properly well balanced rig to start with is much more important for safety.
None of these things will compensate for a unbalanced, setup rig
with an inexperienced driver relying on these electronic things.
"They will stop this. and they WILL do this.
Too much Big brother going on nowadays.
Learn to do it right. set it up right and be responsible for your own actions.
When off road. the first thing you do is disconnect all that crap. so YOU can drive the vehicle.
As I said.
A towing advisory course will make a driver and his rig. an ALL ROUND safer unit on the road.
Rather than just relying on electronics and hoping for the best.
Sorry mate.
Modern is not always the best way to go.
KNOWING what. and when to do things to cover different scenarios,
is much more important.
and safer...
Only My opinion though
everybody different.
macka17 said
06:04 PM Aug 31, 2016
And. Centre axle. Suspension caravan designs should be banned from the roads.
A rear set suspension van. is virtually impossible to make to "tail wag". Same as a semi trailer. Unless you get a blowout or hang half a ton off it's arse.
Quite a few times going North after the wet. I've had to swerve the rig to avoid BIG pot holes in roads.
6'5 mtr Off roader. 110 and more travelling speed. The Roadstars just tracked straight as a die behind Patrol no matter where you pointed them.
centre axle unit behind of me. coupla swerves. Bump in one hole. ripped axle assy off one side. Couldn't control swerves after second one. Tail wagged the dog.
Just another reason where heavier tug is controlling lighter trailer. NOT the other way around. (5.9ton combined and balanced)
-- Edited by macka17 on Wednesday 31st of August 2016 06:05:53 PM
Yabbietol said
07:43 PM Aug 31, 2016
As a professional TAFE teacher for many years I am well aware one can only present the the best information you can find. It is up others if they take it on board or not.
"Accident data shows that Electronic Stability Control (ESC) can significantly reduce the likelihood of being involved in loss-of-control crashes."
I do see anyone above saying you should not correctly load your caravan or you should drive at excessive speed. Safety features do not remove our responsibility for our actions. They just save lives, when stuff goes wrong or they reduce the chance of it going wrong in the first place. I strongly endorse anyone who tows a caravan to do a tow-ed type of course and good driver education is the single best way to reduce the inherent risk of towing a caravan.
Stability control is just another technology that will help to save lives and is just starting to have an impact on the caravan world. Technology and science is continually changing how we do things on the road. ABS brakes work real well in getting us to an emergency stop in a straight line, safer and quicker than ordinary brakes. Seat belts have saved many lives, once they were considered not necessary. Air bags were once not needed. These technologies have saved many lives.
Well designed stability controls for 4WD do not need to be disconnected. The Dexter Sway Control (DSC) has sensors that detect bumpy roads and do not unnecessarily operate the brakes. DSC is designed for on road and off road use.
ALKO Electronic Stability Control (ESC) was primary designed for smooth roads and are suppose to be turned off on bumpy roadsThis is done by disconnecting the power supply, hopefully you will be driving slower to suit the conditions and you won't need it.
I suppose there are people who when off road disconnect their ABS brakes, undo their seat belts, turn off their airbags and their stability control. That of course is their choice, but in the end natural selection will come into play.
C00P said
12:02 AM Sep 1, 2016
Our van was designed by an experienced caravaner who got into the business of building caravans because everyone wanted to buy his. Sadly deceased now, before he passed away I was able to speak to him about the ESC systems (the ALKO one).
He said he'd read about them so went to the agent for a demo. The agent had a large tandem "demo" van set up for for people to try the system. He said he took the demo van for a run and deliberately tried to roll it. Was impressed that the system prevented this from happening. Said when he returned the agent had gone a bit pale...
He began fitting them to all his vans as standard equipment after that.
He was an ex-farmer, and a very practical bloke. Typical of him to put the system through its paces like that. Took nothing at face value.
My opinion regarding this system (I have one fitted now) is that it is like a seat belt, or an airbag, or ABS. They make a demonstrated improvement to safety, but you hope fervently that you never need any of them. But with the best will in the world, and with care to attend to all the basics such as the couplings, WDH's correct loading and weight distribution, towing at appropriate speeds, getting some heavy vehicle training, and so on, you cannot prevent other people creating problems for you on the road, and you cannot completely eliminate human error (yours or theirs). That's when these devices come into play- to prevent, or at least minimise, the accidents that happen. If you can afford to fit an ESC, then do it, but things like WDH's, good training, correct loading and sensible speeds should come first.
Prior to driving off, we use a written "pretake-off checklist". If it's good enough for airline pilots, then it's good enough for me. But they also have lots of automatic safety systems too...
Hi all
Might be a knee jerk reaction with all of the van rollovers but I started thinking about ESC, but the tug has Dynamic Stability Control my question is if both have stability control will there be conflict between tug and van??????
Micko
Conflict. Possibly.
a towing instruction course
would be your money much better spent I think....
The driver is the limiting factor in 99% of towing scenarios.
It's a completely different ball game to driving a car.
Unfortunately a lot have yet to realise.
You have a rig with proper weight balances, within each others
weight limits.
driven by an "experienced in towing", or getting that way driver.
at sensible speeds, limits according to conditions.
You will be the one LEAST likely to have an accident.
Most of these "safety" items built into modern cars,
and add ons afterwards.
are to con your wallet.and hopefully make the less experienced safer on the road
We didn't have all this crap yrs ago. and had. probably less accidents.
In the caravanning scene anyway.
Mainly because we were more concious of the fact.
ALL fools or ill advised, will be accident prone.
All these modern tricks make the inexperienced feel just a little invunerable.
The machinery will save me....
Correct hitch. with one of the WDH's to suit.
is all you need.
as long as rig balanced and safe weight,s, tyres etc wise..
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 28th of August 2016 01:06:54 PM
Thanks for that Macka,have done a lot of towing and never had a problem probably spending to much time in the van reading about what others have done need to get out more
Cheers
Micko
Macka17,
I have had the experience on a previous van with esc and it was worth the money saved my van and possibly car, I think your comments are lacking knowledge of just how good some of these newer safety products are.
Never condemn a product without having sufficient knowledge !!!
I have had friends who have the ALKO system and they rave over it, but I don't have it and I have no way of fitting it to my van at present anyway. I just drive carefully and avoid traffic wherever possible. The towball load on my rig is rather heavy and the few times I have tried to unsettle the van, it cancelled itself out very quickly.
cheers again, Craig
Three caravans and been a camper all my life and never ever slightly looked like having a van wiggle it's tail, I have Esc on the new Van ,to me it's just another useless thing that needs looking after,my vans well balanced and drven by an guy that drives at a sensible pace I know the thing will never get used,unless it malfunctions and that would be a real pain in the butt...
Sounds like yours was not installed properly or is a faulty unit. Yours is way out of character. If the fitting agent can't correct it I suggest you contact Al-Ko direct and complain.
Interesting scenario MICKO.
I would imagine in a situation that required both to be used they would operate autonomously and therefore do the job they are designed for.
Hope you never have to find out though.
Cheers
Vince
Hello
We have had a Dexter Sway Control (DSC) fitted to our van for about a year and so far have found it very good. It is very reassuring when towing.
I will attempt to answer the OP's question. I have done some reading on how the DSC would interact with a system such as Toyota's Trailer Sway Control (TSC). http://www3.toyota.com.au/hilux/features/safety/trailer-sway-control
The TSC is designed to act when the trailer (caravan) affects the vehicle and is very similar to the normal electronic vehicle stability control, which is required on all new cars sold in Australia and has been required for a few years. The TSC applies the brake on the side affected much quicker than a person can and if required applies brakes on each side of the Tow as required, to damp the oscillation (sway). It will complement a caravan ESC or DSC or if your caravan system fails or does not cope the TSC will help.
This next part is a bit techo, I have tried to make it easy to understand, hope I have succeeded. All these systems are operated by accelerometers have preset limits in g force (multiple of force of gravity) in various directions. If the accelerometer detects movement too fast in the wrong direction (e.g. sideways) the stability system applies the brakes. ALKO ESC applies both caravan brakes at the same time, similar to pressing the button on the brake controller, the DSC applies the caravan brake on the side that is required to damp the sway. The TSC applies the brakes of the Tow to the side that is moving too fast in the wrong direction.
So in a real bad situation TSC will help the DSC (or ESC) and in a less serious situation the DSC or ESC should solve the problem without activating the TSC. They are good things and will reduce the number of caravan accidents as the car ones have significantly reduced the number of single vehicle car accidents.
Hope this helps
Very happy with my Alko ESC. Although I'm confident of my driving and towing skills, the ESC gives me peace of mind in case some idiot does something stupid and I have to take severe evasive action. I hope it never happens but I look at my ESC as an added life insurance.
Fair enuff.
As I said. To help the "not so competent".
But If it goes wrong.will cause even more problems.
I'm old school.
Experience and a properly well balanced rig to start with is much more important for safety.
None of these things will compensate for a unbalanced, setup rig
with an inexperienced driver relying on these electronic things.
"They will stop this. and they WILL do this.
Too much Big brother going on nowadays.
Learn to do it right. set it up right and be responsible for your own actions.
When off road. the first thing you do is disconnect all that crap. so YOU can drive the vehicle.
As I said.
A towing advisory course will make a driver and his rig. an ALL ROUND safer unit on the road.
Rather than just relying on electronics and hoping for the best.
Sorry mate.
Modern is not always the best way to go.
KNOWING what. and when to do things to cover different scenarios,
is much more important.
and safer...
Only My opinion though
everybody different.
And.
Centre axle. Suspension caravan designs should be banned from the roads.
A rear set suspension van. is virtually impossible to make to "tail wag".
Same as a semi trailer.
Unless you get a blowout or hang half a ton off it's arse.
Quite a few times going North after the wet.
I've had to swerve the rig to avoid BIG pot holes in roads.
6'5 mtr Off roader. 110 and more travelling speed.
The Roadstars just tracked straight as a die behind Patrol
no matter where you pointed them.
centre axle unit behind of me. coupla swerves. Bump in one hole. ripped axle assy off one side.
Couldn't control swerves after second one. Tail wagged the dog.
Just another reason where heavier tug is controlling lighter trailer.
NOT the other way around. (5.9ton combined and balanced)
-- Edited by macka17 on Wednesday 31st of August 2016 06:05:53 PM
"Accident data shows that Electronic Stability Control (ESC) can significantly reduce the likelihood of being involved in loss-of-control crashes."
www.fcai.com.au/Safety/electronic-stability-control
I do see anyone above saying you should not correctly load your caravan or you should drive at excessive speed. Safety features do not remove our responsibility for our actions. They just save lives, when stuff goes wrong or they reduce the chance of it going wrong in the first place. I strongly endorse anyone who tows a caravan to do a tow-ed type of course and good driver education is the single best way to reduce the inherent risk of towing a caravan.
Stability control is just another technology that will help to save lives and is just starting to have an impact on the caravan world. Technology and science is continually changing how we do things on the road. ABS brakes work real well in getting us to an emergency stop in a straight line, safer and quicker than ordinary brakes. Seat belts have saved many lives, once they were considered not necessary. Air bags were once not needed. These technologies have saved many lives.
Well designed stability controls for 4WD do not need to be disconnected. The Dexter Sway Control (DSC) has sensors that detect bumpy roads and do not unnecessarily operate the brakes. DSC is designed for on road and off road use.
ALKO Electronic Stability Control (ESC) was primary designed for smooth roads and are suppose to be turned off on bumpy roadsThis is done by disconnecting the power supply, hopefully you will be driving slower to suit the conditions and you won't need it.
I suppose there are people who when off road disconnect their ABS brakes, undo their seat belts, turn off their airbags and their stability control. That of course is their choice, but in the end natural selection will come into play.
He said he'd read about them so went to the agent for a demo. The agent had a large tandem "demo" van set up for for people to try the system. He said he took the demo van for a run and deliberately tried to roll it. Was impressed that the system prevented this from happening. Said when he returned the agent had gone a bit pale...
He began fitting them to all his vans as standard equipment after that.
He was an ex-farmer, and a very practical bloke. Typical of him to put the system through its paces like that. Took nothing at face value.
My opinion regarding this system (I have one fitted now) is that it is like a seat belt, or an airbag, or ABS. They make a demonstrated improvement to safety, but you hope fervently that you never need any of them. But with the best will in the world, and with care to attend to all the basics such as the couplings, WDH's correct loading and weight distribution, towing at appropriate speeds, getting some heavy vehicle training, and so on, you cannot prevent other people creating problems for you on the road, and you cannot completely eliminate human error (yours or theirs). That's when these devices come into play- to prevent, or at least minimise, the accidents that happen. If you can afford to fit an ESC, then do it, but things like WDH's, good training, correct loading and sensible speeds should come first.
Prior to driving off, we use a written "pretake-off checklist". If it's good enough for airline pilots, then it's good enough for me. But they also have lots of automatic safety systems too...
Cheers
Coop