I have been reading about these incidents for some time and have seldom seen an explanation of why these happenings occur.
My thoughts are that the driver has tried to avoid an obstacle, swerved and lost control, travelling too fast for the conditions,
applied the brakes too savagely, been influenced by nearby vehicles or possibly lightweight tow vehicles or poor loading of both vehicles.
I was watching a video of a large semi where the trailer skidded sideways during an emergency braking manoeuver and the whole rig left the road.
Could this same response be repeated with a caravan and tow vehicle where the brakes on the van are too effective, lock up and therefore lose traction/adhesion and as a consequence leave the road taking the tow vehicle with it.
I also wonder if there is any co-relation with some modern tow vehicles that have disc front brakes and drum rear brakes.
Does A.B.S. control front and rear brakes in this situation??????.
Any motor cycle rider will confirm that if the back wheel skids you lose traction/steerage and the possibly control.
A lot of information seems to be missing in the reporting of accidents and as such very few drivers are aware of potential incident causing factors.
With the increase in van travel and the numbers on the road towing big vans with, some, in my opinion, little cars cause more problems.
With little or no information about crash reports we are effectively kept in the dark.
It is no good spending thousand of Dollars on a new rig to find that you are unable to safely travel and learn to forsee problems.
What are your thoughts????
Have fun Haji-Baba
Aus-Kiwi said
11:45 PM Jun 26, 2016
If your an experienced driver . Driving to conditions . More important . Being aware and wide awake concentrating on driving . The ABS or Stability Control would never need to activate . Yes modern vans do have stability control . But like ABS . Don't relly on it . Most accidents are caused by Poppi or Nanni naps ., All up the west coast to Darwin . I am amazed at the number of groves in the road caused by accidents . Yes some are possibly semi and animal hits too . There wouldn't be 5 ks with no sign of past accident of some sort . Not concentrating and paying attention . Is the major reason . No computer fandango algorisism is going to help . Once your off the road out bush your in trouble !!
Dickodownunder said
09:08 AM Jun 27, 2016
As Aus Kiwi said, no amount of computer controlled gizmos on your vehicle will make up for inattention and poor driving skills.
It is an unfortunate fact in this country that we drivers, as a collective group have for generations considered that we do not need driver training.
Our standards have been to learn a page or two of rules a quick trip around the block with someone in authority after having practical training with a parent/relation/friend and bingo....pay the money and get the licence.
The bad habits that most of us learn during this intensive training period ^^, stay with us for the rest of our lives.
Apart from the accidents or "deliberates" caused by alcohol and drugs, most other incidences are related to a driver being in a situation which he or she has had no training or advice on what to do and how to handle the situation. This includes fatigue management.
It will take an extremely brave government to introduce "proper" training and "proper"tests prior to being able to operate any vehicle.
This training and testing needs to apply to each licence for each type of vehicle operated.
To the OP Haji Baba, if you have the appropriate licence currently for what you may want to drive and you believe you have the skills and common sense to operate that vehicle safely then you are technically able to drive it.
I am not aware of any actual driver training courses that one may attend but I am sure that if these courses exist for caravans / RV's then someone on here will let us know.
Travel safely
Santa said
09:16 AM Jun 27, 2016
Many of the incidents are caused by poor/uneven loading.
We see them every trip, when poorly loaded any minor upset, i.e. wind, overtaking vehicle, hard braking, avoiding an object or uneven road will cause the van to take control of the towing vehicle resulting in a fish tail, it's pretty unnerving having one of em coming at you out of control.
Many of the incidents are caused by poor/uneven loading.
We see them every trip, when poorly loaded any minor upset, i.e. wind, overtaking vehicle, hard braking, avoiding an object or uneven road will cause the van to take control of the towing vehicle resulting in a fish tail, it's pretty unnerving having one of em coming at you out of control.
there is just not enough info easily a available or as I said above, training.
Loading would be an important part of training of all driving licence classes.
Travel Safely
Santa said
10:16 AM Jun 27, 2016
Dickodownunder wrote:
Santa wrote:
Many of the incidents are caused by poor/uneven loading.
We see them every trip, when poorly loaded any minor upset, i.e. wind, overtaking vehicle, hard braking, avoiding an object or uneven road will cause the van to take control of the towing vehicle resulting in a fish tail, it's pretty unnerving having one of em coming at you out of control.
I believe most accidents are caused by ignorance.
All the information is out there.
It is your responsibilty as the operator to make sure your legal and safe.
Driving to the conditions also means being honest about your own abilities.
If theres any doubt, then theres something not right.
I am new to towing a caravan, albeit ive worked in transport for25 years and hold a HR licence which has helped with understanding importance of load in relation to axles, ive spent time researching weights and loads and this has led me to the van we bought given our tug towing capacity.
Do your due diligence and stay safe.
Desert Dweller said
01:29 PM Jun 27, 2016
Accidents happen for a variety of reasons & will continue to do so. End of story. Just walking out of the front door is a risk as is staying indoors.
Dickodownunder said
01:33 PM Jun 27, 2016
That is a good link Santa.
Myself, like some others have had a career in road transport.
I have operated road trains for many years but this is the first tandem axle caravan that I have owned. Previous travel leisure equipment was a single axle caravan a boat or two and a camper trailer.
I really believe accurate loading of the van is paramount for safe travel.
When I first towed my van I soon realised that as I moved items around and added items to the load eg. annexe and baby Weber that even these items made a difference to the feel on the road.
As I bought my van second hand I have added a few extra bits and will be putting it over a weighbridge to adjust the loading before heading off on the big one.
Travel Safely
Ron-D said
01:34 PM Jun 27, 2016
Keep your braking distances and drive at sensible speeds,with a well set up rig would be a help in avoiding trouble...
Hey Jim said
01:35 PM Jun 27, 2016
Have seen it oh so often. Over loaded, under inflated inside rear tyre on tug getting hammered by poor road shoulders. The inside of rear tyre returning to roadway gets the side wall ripped open half of the time. The driver go's for the brakes with the right rear wheel been more effective then the left, on the brakes. And we end up with a Jack Knife and over she go's with the van in the middle of the road folks.
Semi Drivers have the same problems.except they have 18 wheels to your 8. Have you seen a professional driver walk around his rig tapping all tyres with a poddy hammer when he pulls up. Ask the next one you see, and ask he / she Why.They can't see the inside tyre total, but he can sure smell it.
Jim
stoney123 said
07:58 AM Jun 28, 2016
I notice drivers especially women turn their head when talking to passenger. Stop doing this.
hako said
01:14 PM Jun 28, 2016
stoney123 wrote:
I notice drivers especially women turn their head when talking to passenger. Stop doing this.
Quite common to see this in movies etc where the driver turns his/her head for a loooong time. Makes me very uncomfortable!! They never have accidents so it must be OK to do it???
Regards
stoney123 said
06:37 AM Jun 29, 2016
hako,
lol.
Aus-Kiwi said
12:02 PM Jun 29, 2016
Yes load makes a big difference . But then again it's experience we take for granted . Or inexperience . Trouble you can't really teach stupid . One thing I notice . Humans always try to pin an accident on other things other than THEMSELVES!! The last point is the nut behind the wheel . Just sitting here typing this a lady has turned too tight . Run over a water feed pipe and rubbish bin ., she got out and said who put the bin there ? Prime example. Nice fountain tho ..
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:34 PM Jun 29, 2016
The fact is that a towing arrangement with an overhung hitch (caravan) is inherently unstable, whereas a 5th wheel/semi trailer arrangement is stable.
Those are the scientific facts.
A couple of years ago, Collyn Rivers had figures from one of the 5 large caravan insurers and they reported about 700 caravan rollover claims in one year.
Cheers,
Peter
Santa said
12:37 PM Jun 29, 2016
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Yes load makes a big difference . But then again it's experience we take for granted . Or inexperience . Trouble you can't really teach stupid . One thing I notice . Humans always try to pin an accident on other things other than THEMSELVES!! The last point is the nut behind the wheel . Just sitting here typing this a lady has turned too tight . Run over a water feed pipe and rubbish bin ., she got out and said who put the bin there ? Prime example. Nice fountain tho ..
No argument from me on what you say.
Sitting in MH, car park Woolworths Mildura a couple weeks ago, down the road comes new 4WD towing large very new van, swings into car park, misjudges, doesn't allow for length of van, tow vehicle makes the turn O.K. drivers side wheels of van mount concrete gutter and nature strip, not so much as a pause, towed across about 2 metres of bark nature strip and dropped of the border on the other side with a hell of a thump.
The guy didn't even check for damage, wife got out went shopping, he lean't on the bull bar and had a smoke, probably wondering who put the garden there.
macka17 said
11:12 AM Jul 3, 2016
I drive all over the Western world plus. Sth America. Mexico, Thailand etc. 3 places I won't hire a car. Mexico City, Lima Peru and Santiago.
Australian drivers in general. are the most inattentive. Arrogant ."I'm Right" regardless drivers, I've ever encountered. NOT all. But a large majority.
I did a driving course in UK Army in late '50's. was 2 months long and included Veh Maint. How they worked and loading. stability and reactions to different things. with films to show.
THEN you got into a vehicle on a track. At end of course, the testing took all day and again at night. Motorbike (I was a Don R) Champ, 1 tonner. 3 tonner 10 tonner. artic. and truck/trailer. Oh and tracked Armoured veh (Turretless recovery Conquerer tank). I was training as a V.M. Diesels.
Then all again at night time.
When in Civvy. One job was buses in London and Glasgow. SIngle. Hi Deck and Low deck. different licence for each. Skid pan (the greatest) was part of training and testing. THEN. a medical every yr and retest. You fail. Licence suspended till you pass.
Oh I also did my orig training in Germany. left hand drive. Had to do it all over again when returning to UK.
Did Training courses for semi;s and heavy haulage to 300ton with BRS Gov't trucking company in '60's.
And had a medical annually (dangerous goods) till I handed 'em in at 70.
HERE.
Missus went for a week with instructor I MADE HER. you didn't have to.
Round to local copper. Asked a coupla questions. drive round block. sometimes a reverse. That's it.
If it raining. Normally just the questions and passed.
and that is what they gave most Australians till quite recently.
No wonder there's so many accidents per head of population in this country. Only private co's give any training on towing. loading etc. and no official paper after.
Point being.
the driver training. or lack of in this country needs attending to.
specially the towing side of it with oldies that have never driven more than a holden and 6x4.
That's the reason there are so many accidents.
Accidents don't happen. they ALL caused by lack of knowledge...negligence, inattentiveness.
or mechanical breakdown. (Normally caused by lack of attention to maint.)
That's my whinge over with. back under caravan piping in hot water system.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 3rd of July 2016 11:18:32 AM
Delta18 said
12:27 PM Jul 3, 2016
No such thing as an "accident"!
All crashes are caused by Ignorance, Negligence or Fatigue!
Aus-Kiwi said
12:57 PM Jul 3, 2016
Camped in Mataranka . The amount of people who cannot back their vans into position is unbelievable! They possibly have driven 1000's of klrs .. Funny thing is ..some of MY experience has come from what they call these days is hooning on the farm . Did little on street or Atleast built up areas . Strange but true a safe driver has no experience when things go wrong or has no idea when things start to bad till its way too late .,
Dickodownunder said
12:59 PM Jul 3, 2016
macka17 wrote:
Missus went for a week with instructor I MADE HER. you didn't have to.
Round to local copper. Asked a coupla questions. drive round block. sometimes a reverse. That's it.
If it raining. Normally just the questions and passed.
and that is what they gave most Australians till quite recently.
No wonder there's so many accidents per head of population in this country. Only private co's give any training on towing. loading etc. and no official paper after.
Point being.
the driver training. or lack of in this country needs attending to.
specially the towing side of it with oldies that have never driven more than a holden and 6x4.
That's the reason there are so many accidents.
Accidents don't happen. they ALL caused by lack of knowledge...negligence, inattentiveness.
or mechanical breakdown. (Normally caused by lack of attention to maint.)
That's my whinge over with. back under caravan piping in hot water system.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 3rd of July 2016 11:18:32 AM
Totally agree with your entire post macka17.
The way we are going here we will be giving driving licences out on line soon unless the muppets we have from all persuasions of govt can grow some "you know whats" and fix it.
They will never help to prevent road accidents with revenue.
Woody n Sue said
09:09 PM Jul 5, 2016
Totally agree with Macka 17 I have been saying for years driving instructors teach our young drivers how to get a licence
NOT how to Drive they are not the same thing
Aus-kiwi I wish I could say I am surprised that people can't back their vans, but I'm not
Woody
Aus-Kiwi said
10:00 PM Jul 5, 2016
Quite entertaining lol ., Woody ..
aussie_paul said
10:47 PM Jul 5, 2016
No one should get a licence without spending time on an oily skid pad!!!
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Tuesday 5th of July 2016 11:25:00 PM
Haji-Baba said
02:01 AM Jul 11, 2016
Just back from a short holiday and the response to the original post is wide spread to say the least.
For a start I think the most relevant response was from Santa, "Caravan World Safety" clip. very informative.
Other issues outlined in your replies, Accidents don't just happen, they are generally caused by people who may have problems with any the following.
Lack of experience, Training and incorrect information, reliance on gismos, balance of loads, pendulum effect on caravans as opposed to fifth wheeler stability, braking skidding loss of traction, tyre issues pressure, type,
mechanical failure eg: loss of wheel, why??, lack of awareness, anticipation of problems. Weather factors.
Just for info on my background I have driven all over Europe in a left hand drive vehicle, all over Australia, and towed 7 boats 4 caravans over a period of something like 50 years.
Maybe if we can advise someone we meet about a safety issue, some so called "accidents" may be prevented.
I have been reading about these incidents for some time and have seldom seen an explanation of why these happenings occur.
My thoughts are that the driver has tried to avoid an obstacle, swerved and lost control, travelling too fast for the conditions,
applied the brakes too savagely, been influenced by nearby vehicles or possibly lightweight tow vehicles or poor loading of both vehicles.
I was watching a video of a large semi where the trailer skidded sideways during an emergency braking manoeuver and the whole rig left the road.
Could this same response be repeated with a caravan and tow vehicle where the brakes on the van are too effective, lock up and therefore lose traction/adhesion and as a consequence leave the road taking the tow vehicle with it.
I also wonder if there is any co-relation with some modern tow vehicles that have disc front brakes and drum rear brakes.
Does A.B.S. control front and rear brakes in this situation??????.
Any motor cycle rider will confirm that if the back wheel skids you lose traction/steerage and the possibly control.
A lot of information seems to be missing in the reporting of accidents and as such very few drivers are aware of potential incident causing factors.
With the increase in van travel and the numbers on the road towing big vans with, some, in my opinion, little cars cause more problems.
With little or no information about crash reports we are effectively kept in the dark.
It is no good spending thousand of Dollars on a new rig to find that you are unable to safely travel and learn to forsee problems.
What are your thoughts????
Have fun Haji-Baba
It is an unfortunate fact in this country that we drivers, as a collective group have for generations considered that we do not need driver training.
Our standards have been to learn a page or two of rules a quick trip around the block with someone in authority after having practical training with a parent/relation/friend and bingo....pay the money and get the licence.
The bad habits that most of us learn during this intensive training period ^^, stay with us for the rest of our lives.
Apart from the accidents or "deliberates" caused by alcohol and drugs, most other incidences are related to a driver being in a situation which he or she has had no training or advice on what to do and how to handle the situation. This includes fatigue management.
It will take an extremely brave government to introduce "proper" training and "proper"tests prior to being able to operate any vehicle.
This training and testing needs to apply to each licence for each type of vehicle operated.
To the OP Haji Baba, if you have the appropriate licence currently for what you may want to drive and you believe you have the skills and common sense to operate that vehicle safely then you are technically able to drive it.
I am not aware of any actual driver training courses that one may attend but I am sure that if these courses exist for caravans / RV's then someone on here will let us know.
Travel safely
Many of the incidents are caused by poor/uneven loading.
We see them every trip, when poorly loaded any minor upset, i.e. wind, overtaking vehicle, hard braking, avoiding an object or uneven road will cause the van to take control of the towing vehicle resulting in a fish tail, it's pretty unnerving having one of em coming at you out of control.
Take a look at this video clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjgAIi1w3_0
Totally agree with you Santa,
there is just not enough info easily a available or as I said above, training.
Loading would be an important part of training of all driving licence classes.
Travel Safely
Lots of info if you do a Google search Dicko, this is just one site http://www.caravanworld.com.au/features/1406/towing-safety/
All the information is out there.
It is your responsibilty as the operator to make sure your legal and safe.
Driving to the conditions also means being honest about your own abilities.
If theres any doubt, then theres something not right.
I am new to towing a caravan, albeit ive worked in transport for25 years and hold a HR licence which has helped with understanding importance of load in relation to axles, ive spent time researching weights and loads and this has led me to the van we bought given our tug towing capacity.
Do your due diligence and stay safe.
Myself, like some others have had a career in road transport.
I have operated road trains for many years but this is the first tandem axle caravan that I have owned. Previous travel leisure equipment was a single axle caravan a boat or two and a camper trailer.
I really believe accurate loading of the van is paramount for safe travel.
When I first towed my van I soon realised that as I moved items around and added items to the load eg. annexe and baby Weber that even these items made a difference to the feel on the road.
As I bought my van second hand I have added a few extra bits and will be putting it over a weighbridge to adjust the loading before heading off on the big one.
Travel Safely
Keep your braking distances and drive at sensible speeds,with a well set up rig would be a help in avoiding trouble...
Have seen it oh so often. Over loaded, under inflated inside rear tyre on tug getting hammered by poor road shoulders. The inside of rear tyre returning to roadway gets the side wall ripped open half of the time. The driver go's for the brakes with the right rear wheel been more effective then the left, on the brakes. And we end up with a Jack Knife and over she go's with the van in the middle of the road folks.
Semi Drivers have the same problems.except they have 18 wheels to your 8. Have you seen a professional driver walk around his rig tapping all tyres with a poddy hammer when he pulls up. Ask the next one you see, and ask he / she Why.They can't see the inside tyre total, but he can sure smell it.
Jim
Quite common to see this in movies etc where the driver turns his/her head for a loooong time. Makes me very uncomfortable!! They never have accidents so it must be OK to do it???
Regards
lol.
Those are the scientific facts.
A couple of years ago, Collyn Rivers had figures from one of the 5 large caravan insurers and they reported about 700 caravan rollover claims in one year.
Cheers,
Peter
No argument from me on what you say.
Sitting in MH, car park Woolworths Mildura a couple weeks ago, down the road comes new 4WD towing large very new van, swings into car park, misjudges, doesn't allow for length of van, tow vehicle makes the turn O.K. drivers side wheels of van mount concrete gutter and nature strip, not so much as a pause, towed across about 2 metres of bark nature strip and dropped of the border on the other side with a hell of a thump.
The guy didn't even check for damage, wife got out went shopping, he lean't on the bull bar and had a smoke, probably wondering who put the garden there.
I drive all over the Western world plus. Sth America. Mexico, Thailand etc.
3 places I won't hire a car. Mexico City, Lima Peru and Santiago.
Australian drivers in general.
are the most inattentive. Arrogant ."I'm Right" regardless drivers, I've ever encountered.
NOT all. But a large majority.
I did a driving course in UK Army in late '50's.
was 2 months long and included Veh Maint. How they worked and loading. stability and reactions to different things.
with films to show.
THEN you got into a vehicle on a track.
At end of course, the testing took all day and again at night.
Motorbike (I was a Don R) Champ, 1 tonner. 3 tonner 10 tonner. artic. and truck/trailer.
Oh and tracked Armoured veh (Turretless recovery Conquerer tank).
I was training as a V.M. Diesels.
Then all again at night time.
When in Civvy. One job was buses in London and Glasgow.
SIngle. Hi Deck and Low deck. different licence for each.
Skid pan (the greatest) was part of training and testing.
THEN. a medical every yr and retest.
You fail. Licence suspended till you pass.
Oh I also did my orig training in Germany. left hand drive.
Had to do it all over again when returning to UK.
Did Training courses for semi;s and heavy haulage to 300ton with BRS
Gov't trucking company in '60's.
And had a medical annually (dangerous goods)
till I handed 'em in at 70.
HERE.
Missus went for a week with instructor
I MADE HER. you didn't have to.
Round to local copper.
Asked a coupla questions. drive round block.
sometimes a reverse.
That's it.
If it raining. Normally just the questions and passed.
and that is what they gave most Australians till quite recently.
No wonder there's so many accidents per head of population in this country.
Only private co's give any training on towing. loading etc.
and no official paper after.
Point being.
the driver training. or lack of in this country needs attending to.
specially the towing side of it with oldies that have never driven more than a holden and 6x4.
That's the reason there are so many accidents.
Accidents don't happen. they ALL caused by lack of knowledge...negligence, inattentiveness.
or mechanical breakdown. (Normally caused by lack of attention to maint.)
That's my whinge over with. back under caravan piping in hot water system.
-- Edited by macka17 on Sunday 3rd of July 2016 11:18:32 AM
All crashes are caused by Ignorance, Negligence or Fatigue!
Totally agree with your entire post macka17.
The way we are going here we will be giving driving licences out on line soon unless the muppets we have from all persuasions of govt can grow some "you know whats" and fix it.
They will never help to prevent road accidents with revenue.
NOT how to Drive they are not the same thing
Aus-kiwi I wish I could say I am surprised that people can't back their vans, but I'm not
Woody
No one should get a licence without spending time on an oily skid pad!!!
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Tuesday 5th of July 2016 11:25:00 PM
Just back from a short holiday and the response to the original post is wide spread to say the least.
For a start I think the most relevant response was from Santa, "Caravan World Safety" clip. very informative.
Other issues outlined in your replies, Accidents don't just happen, they are generally caused by people who may have problems with any the following.
Lack of experience, Training and incorrect information, reliance on gismos, balance of loads, pendulum effect on caravans as opposed to fifth wheeler stability, braking skidding loss of traction, tyre issues pressure, type,
mechanical failure eg: loss of wheel, why??, lack of awareness, anticipation of problems. Weather factors.
Just for info on my background I have driven all over Europe in a left hand drive vehicle, all over Australia, and towed 7 boats 4 caravans over a period of something like 50 years.
Maybe if we can advise someone we meet about a safety issue, some so called "accidents" may be prevented.
Thanks for all the replies.
Have fun Haji-Baba