Noteable Vehicles towing omissions from this years Super Show
Hey Jim said
11:24 PM Apr 9, 2016
Hi all,
One other thing missing from this years Sydney Caravan Show today, were (ALL the Suitiable towing Signs) that they displayed in previous years, saying This van can be Towed by Toyota Parado or A BT50/ Ford Ranger Etc Etc Etc.
I read this, as lots of folks have been caught up in disputes with dealers / misrepresentations as to what their car can, by law tow.
Interesting.
Hey Jim
marto1944 said
08:32 AM Apr 10, 2016
yep you just cannot believe what you read today do your own research
Yuglamron said
08:54 AM Apr 10, 2016
Going to extremes a 600HP semi holds a world record for towing an enormous number of trailers. Don't know how many without Googling the answer. Like the claims made by the manufacturers about towing capabilities. Yes they may be able to tow huge weights but LEGAL no way.
Googled the record. In Australia 79 trailers and 1072 Tons.
-- Edited by Yuglamron on Sunday 10th of April 2016 08:59:55 AM
Wombat 280 said
09:54 AM Apr 10, 2016
I haven't seen one that you can hook up from the show room without needing some sort of expensive suspension upgrade or accessory so it will sit level and not throw out the steering geometry. Most manufactures have spent billion on R&D to give that armchair ride that 95 % of the buyers want. I have no doubt that you can tow the weight with anything but for how long that's another question.
rockylizard said
11:13 AM Apr 10, 2016
Wombat 280 wrote:
I haven't seen one that you can hook up from the show room without needing some sort of expensive suspension upgrade or accessory so it will sit level and not throw out the steering geometry. Most manufactures have spent billion on R&D to give that armchair ride that 95 % of the buyers want. I have no doubt that you can tow the weight with anything but for how long that's another question.
Gday...
At the risk of attracting a long, passionate thread that will to and fro with argument and counter-argument, I find that statement a little simplistic.
I am certain a considerable number of members on this forum are towing their van without the need for an "expansive suspension upgrade".
Certainly, there will be a a wide use of a WDH, and perhaps an anti-sway 'accessory', but again, without an "expensive suspension upgrade".
The problem you allude to Wommie, is probably more directed to those who purchase a van that is close to the 'rated towing capacity' of their vehicle - ie ATM at or above 75% of their vehicle's rated towing capacity. Or, heaven forbid, a van ultimately modified and/or loaded beyond the rated ATM. Add to that a mis-understandng of what the 'payload' of their vehicle is and that is when the problems begin.
I would also suggest that there are many members of this forum who have been towing their van without "expensive suspension upgrade" for many 1,000s of Km without problem or difficulty. Albeit I would suggest those members are towing a van that is within the 75% of the vehicles "rated capability".
Personally, my vehicle is a 2006 vintage, rated to tow 3,500Kg, but towing 2,600Kg (74% of vehicle's rating). I have been doing so full-time for the past seven years and have covered 136,000km with the vehicle - and at least 110,000Km with the van attached.
Now with 198,000Km on the clock, it is still completely standard suspension - and surprisingly (even to me) still with the same standard suspension it left the factory with.
I am certain there are many others with similar history with their vehicle and van.
The problem is that, as you say, vehicle manufacturers state figures that are closer to 'marketing' ratings rather than 'actual' abilities of their vehicles. This is further exacerbated by van manufacturers who declare a TARE weight for a van, without having put THAT van over the scales, and an ATM that is understated for 'marketing' reasons to 'please' vehicle owners.
I don't know the answer - other than perhaps that those who buy vehicles that don't cope with the weight of the van of their choice without modification of the suspension, should be more willing to share their experiences, and the things that had to be modified, and highlight the shortcomings of their vehicle - or admit they had expected their vehicle to tow a van that was actually beyond the vehicle's 'true' capabilities. This would help to forewarn, educate?, others to choose their vehicle and/or van more carefully.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 10th of April 2016 11:38:35 AM
Aus-Kiwi said
12:39 PM Apr 11, 2016
Hey John is that a wind generater you have attached on van ? Yes good load balance and selecting the right vehicle is the first place !! I note in the we've possibly pulled way more then we should have with station wagon type vehicles. Including Patrol and Cruiser. The trend these days is the less expensive duel cabs with only chassis rail between cabin and rear . Plus the manufacturers building cars for showroom ride .. Too many vairiables over manufacturers and car owners .
rockylizard said
12:55 PM Apr 11, 2016
Gday...
NAH ... not a generator
Don't tell anyone but that is the reason the Landy gets such good economy - once I hit 85Kph it kicks in and sucks the rig along - letting the diesel drop back to idle.
Sort of a bit of a hybrid.
cheers - John
Wombat 280 said
10:32 PM Apr 11, 2016
I'm with you I don't want to drag the topic out to a street fight which can happen with some owners sharing the forum . I don't think I'm that far off the mark with needing to upgrade the suspension on most vehicle to prevent the arse end sag when hooking up a van / boat. Reading the manufactures manual coming with most of the latest soft tail vehicles one can find that in the small print that WDH's are not recommended and in some cases will void any future suspension claim. There are many cases where the dealer has said Yeah Boss it will be alright to use WDH and then they ring the manufacturer only to be told no way will they recommended WDH and point to the small print in the owners manual . This then leaves the owner to manage the sway and sag by other means ie; Suspension upgrading like air shocks or heavier springs or maybe at the extreme air bags
There needs to be a lot more thought by owners when loading and balancing their rig it's all over red rover once you are highway bounded at speed
My empty 2016 MUX sags in the bottom with a well loaded 15 foot Millard no water on board with internal loading over or some just forward of the axle ( Based on weigh bridge ticket ), still tows well but not as level as one would expect .
georgiegirl said
07:35 AM Apr 12, 2016
That would have been helpful..saw one notice.
we are looking at a new Ford Ranger XLT to pull a 3000 load possibly 3500kg which is max tow rate...anyone had problems with this twin cab..what are suggestions for this weight?
So much info..confusing prefer advice from on road users. Thanks
rockylizard said
08:08 AM Apr 12, 2016
Gday...
Firstly, welcome to the forum Georgiegirl.
While waiting for Ranger owners to come along and provide advice from their experience, this, whilst a bit long, makes good reading. The Ranger is one of the vehicles examined -
Certainly a capable vehicle - but like most of the "utes" - you need to take the whole picture into consideration and understand how easily it is to 'overload' the vehicle - or conversely, the limitations of the vehicle.
Cheers - John
Brisand said
12:57 PM Apr 12, 2016
I have had an Audi Q7 3500 towing capacity diesel motor good vehicle , replaced with a Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel 3500 towing capacity, the jeep was as good as the Audi and $30,000 cheaper, I have had no problems, great towing vehicle, have spoken to lots of jeep owners and not one complaint, would highly recommend.
Bryan said
01:58 PM Apr 12, 2016
Brisand wrote:
I have had an Audi Q7 3500 towing capacity diesel motor good vehicle , replaced with a Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel 3500 towing capacity, the jeep was as good as the Audi and $30,000 cheaper, I have had no problems, great towing vehicle, have spoken to lots of jeep owners and not one complaint, would highly recommend.
Same here. Great fuel economy too.
Aus-Kiwi said
02:14 PM Apr 12, 2016
Funny how some criticise the Jeep ? In the past they had issues .. Not that others don't ., Most Critics have never owned one .
iana said
03:45 PM Apr 12, 2016
Maybe georgiegirl should start a new thread on this, as Jim may feel hi-jacked.
I have a BT50 2015 model and am about to get new springs and shocks on the rear.
It is confusing all this weight stuff, and I do not know if it is policed. But I am of the understanding that it is the gross weights of both vehicles added together which is the important number to go by. Different Rangers will have different figures, but my vehicle (same but with different badge) has a combined gross weight of 6050kg (even though they made a mistake on the rego papers).
If you are towing a van that weighs 3000kg all up, then you will have 3050kg left to play with. The weight of the ute is 2040kg empty, that leaves 1010kg. Add fuel, passengers incl. dog. Tools and spares, spare fuel and water, and oops you are over weight.
You will have to go and read the rego papers to get the info. Such things as a Bull bar, other accessories, canopy are silent add-ons. Make up a spread sheet and list up everything and put in the weights actual or estimated, you will find that the weight will climb very quickly.
And yes the ute will sag in the rear, the rear springs will probably invert. Like others will say use a WDH opp's there's another 35kg.
montie said
11:40 AM Apr 15, 2016
rockylizard wrote:
Wombat 280 wrote:
I haven't seen one that you can hook up from the show room without needing some sort of expensive suspension upgrade or accessory so it will sit level and not throw out the steering geometry. Most manufactures have spent billion on R&D to give that armchair ride that 95 % of the buyers want. I have no doubt that you can tow the weight with anything but for how long that's another question.
Gday...
The problem is that, as you say, vehicle manufacturers state figures that are closer to 'marketing' ratings rather than 'actual' abilities of their vehicles. This is further exacerbated by van manufacturers who declare a TARE weight for a van, without having put THAT van over the scales, and an ATM that is understated for 'marketing' reasons to 'please' vehicle owners.
John,
Caravan manufacturers set their ATM's based on varying criteria one of which as you mentioned being marketing.
There are other considerations based on engineering that determine the setting of ATM's. An example would be where say the axle/suspension/tyre rating is say 3200kg. A manufacturer for engineering reasons will not set an ATM to that limit because it leaves no margin for error. If you hit a pothole at 90 kph the downward thrust would well exceed the 3200kg rating and lead to all sorts of chassis/suspension problems over time. For this reason the manufacturer will set his ATM at a lower figure leaving that margin for error.
Tug manufacturers on the other hand most likely set their GVM's based purely on engineering criteria, however, they are a tad liberal with the truth when they set towing capacities.
Montie
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 10th of April 2016 11:38:35 AM
Hi all,
One other thing missing from this years Sydney Caravan Show today, were (ALL the Suitiable towing Signs) that they displayed in previous years, saying This van can be Towed by Toyota Parado or A BT50/ Ford Ranger Etc Etc Etc.
I read this, as lots of folks have been caught up in disputes with dealers / misrepresentations as to what their car can, by law tow.
Interesting.
Hey Jim
Going to extremes a 600HP semi holds a world record for towing an enormous number of trailers. Don't know how many without Googling the answer. Like the claims made by the manufacturers about towing capabilities. Yes they may be able to tow huge weights but LEGAL no way.
Googled the record. In Australia 79 trailers and 1072 Tons.
-- Edited by Yuglamron on Sunday 10th of April 2016 08:59:55 AM
Gday...
At the risk of attracting a long, passionate thread that will to and fro with argument and counter-argument, I find that statement a little simplistic.
I am certain a considerable number of members on this forum are towing their van without the need for an "expansive suspension upgrade".
Certainly, there will be a a wide use of a WDH, and perhaps an anti-sway 'accessory', but again, without an "expensive suspension upgrade".
The problem you allude to Wommie, is probably more directed to those who purchase a van that is close to the 'rated towing capacity' of their vehicle - ie ATM at or above 75% of their vehicle's rated towing capacity. Or, heaven forbid, a van ultimately modified and/or loaded beyond the rated ATM. Add to that a mis-understandng of what the 'payload' of their vehicle is and that is when the problems begin.
I would also suggest that there are many members of this forum who have been towing their van without "expensive suspension upgrade" for many 1,000s of Km without problem or difficulty. Albeit I would suggest those members are towing a van that is within the 75% of the vehicles "rated capability".
Personally, my vehicle is a 2006 vintage, rated to tow 3,500Kg, but towing 2,600Kg (74% of vehicle's rating). I have been doing so full-time for the past seven years and have covered 136,000km with the vehicle - and at least 110,000Km with the van attached.
Now with 198,000Km on the clock, it is still completely standard suspension - and surprisingly (even to me) still with the same standard suspension it left the factory with.
I am certain there are many others with similar history with their vehicle and van.
The problem is that, as you say, vehicle manufacturers state figures that are closer to 'marketing' ratings rather than 'actual' abilities of their vehicles. This is further exacerbated by van manufacturers who declare a TARE weight for a van, without having put THAT van over the scales, and an ATM that is understated for 'marketing' reasons to 'please' vehicle owners.
I don't know the answer - other than perhaps that those who buy vehicles that don't cope with the weight of the van of their choice without modification of the suspension, should be more willing to share their experiences, and the things that had to be modified, and highlight the shortcomings of their vehicle - or admit they had expected their vehicle to tow a van that was actually beyond the vehicle's 'true' capabilities. This would help to forewarn, educate?, others to choose their vehicle and/or van more carefully.
Cheers - John
-- Edited by rockylizard on Sunday 10th of April 2016 11:38:35 AM
Gday...
NAH ... not a generator
Don't tell anyone but that is the reason the Landy gets such good economy - once I hit 85Kph it kicks in and sucks the rig along - letting the diesel drop back to idle.
Sort of a bit of a hybrid.
cheers - John
There needs to be a lot more thought by owners when loading and balancing their rig it's all over red rover once you are highway bounded at speed
My empty 2016 MUX sags in the bottom with a well loaded 15 foot Millard no water on board with internal loading over or some just forward of the axle ( Based on weigh bridge ticket ), still tows well but not as level as one would expect .
Gday...
Firstly, welcome to the forum Georgiegirl.
While waiting for Ranger owners to come along and provide advice from their experience, this, whilst a bit long, makes good reading. The Ranger is one of the vehicles examined -
https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/
Certainly a capable vehicle - but like most of the "utes" - you need to take the whole picture into consideration and understand how easily it is to 'overload' the vehicle - or conversely, the limitations of the vehicle.
Cheers - John
I have had an Audi Q7 3500 towing capacity diesel motor good vehicle , replaced with a Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel 3500 towing capacity, the jeep was as good as the Audi and $30,000 cheaper, I have had no problems, great towing vehicle, have spoken to lots of jeep owners and not one complaint, would highly recommend.
Same here. Great fuel economy too.
I have a BT50 2015 model and am about to get new springs and shocks on the rear.
It is confusing all this weight stuff, and I do not know if it is policed. But I am of the understanding that it is the gross weights of both vehicles added together which is the important number to go by. Different Rangers will have different figures, but my vehicle (same but with different badge) has a combined gross weight of 6050kg (even though they made a mistake on the rego papers).
If you are towing a van that weighs 3000kg all up, then you will have 3050kg left to play with. The weight of the ute is 2040kg empty, that leaves 1010kg. Add fuel, passengers incl. dog. Tools and spares, spare fuel and water, and oops you are over weight.
You will have to go and read the rego papers to get the info. Such things as a Bull bar, other accessories, canopy are silent add-ons. Make up a spread sheet and list up everything and put in the weights actual or estimated, you will find that the weight will climb very quickly.
And yes the ute will sag in the rear, the rear springs will probably invert. Like others will say use a WDH opp's there's another 35kg.