Finally took the beast for a week.end camp. Couldn't take much gear, as we have issues in the weight department. Tended to pitch a lot, and was sensitive to the wind (sideways sway), but semi-trailers didn't effect it. As for the TV, poor reception, not watchable. Looks like I have to get a WDH, the place where I brought my tow bar from said Utes are worse than SV's or cars having so much overhang, and still to get the springs done on the UTE. Still waiting for a response back from Jayco about the tow ball weight figures.
I wouldn't move out of the yard without a WDH, but others have a different view.
Easy to measure the ball weight with one or two kitchen scales. (see the method below .. from Caravan Plus) Who ever sold you the van will, I'm sure, have a set of the special scales to measure the weight for free. Only takes a couple of minutes.
I would have thought that Jayco would have been on the ball with this. I find that their TBWs are usually rather high. Mine is.
re TV reception ..
Was the power to the mast head amplifier switched on?
I improved my reception by fitting a 'Wingman' array to my 'Winegard' though I would expect that a new van would have a good digital array fitted.
Bathroom Scales: A set of bathroom scales placed under the caravans tow point will tell you the weight on your tow ball. Most bathroom scales will not read high enough so follow the below trick to get your Ball Load. You should use a spacer to hold your van at the same height as when hooked to your car.
A) Place a piece of timber between a your bathroom scales and something like a brick to get to same height. B) Rest the spacer 300mm from the brick and 600mm from the scales. Use a pipe or narrow piece of timber to concentrate the weight at the correct location. C) Place the Caravans tow point on the spacer. Multiply the weight on the scales by 3.
If the scales read 100kg then the Ball Load is really 300kg (100kg on scales plus 200kg on brick). Therefore you would need a hitch rated above 300kg.
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 09:21:46 AM
iana said
09:49 AM Feb 24, 2016
Thanks Cupie, but I am aware of all that. The problem is that Jayco have got the compliance plate wrong, and have set a limit of 200kg max as a tow ball weight. With just the first water tank, i.e. nearest the axles, full, my tow ball weight is over that limit, and that is with none of our gear in it. Its a mess caused by the grey water tank being put at the rear of the axle where the second water tank should be.
Looks like I will have to remove the grey water tank, move the 2nd water tank back where it should be, I have been told they won't do it under warranty.
Hey Jim said
12:58 PM Feb 24, 2016
iana wrote:
Thanks Cupie, but I am aware of all that. The problem is that Jayco have got the compliance plate wrong, and have set a limit of 200kg max as a tow ball weight. With just the first water tank, i.e. nearest the axles, full, my tow ball weight is over that limit, and that is with none of our gear in it. Its a mess caused by the grey water tank being put at the rear of the axle where the second water tank should be. Looks like I will have to remove the grey water tank, move the 2nd water tank back where it should be, I have been told they won't do it under warranty.
Hi Ian,
We feel for you. We know what your going through. Two water tanks in front of both axles for us. GW at the rear.
We threw the second spare out of the front cradle 24.2kg. unbolted the Jack in the front boot, and threw that out as well 5.3kg. I would like to here from their engineer as to what he / she has to say on the matter.
I SENT JAYCO SYDNEY AN EMAIL. EMAIL, YOU GOT EMAIL, HULLO. ANYONE IN THE OFFICE AT SYDNEY JAYCO. FALLS ON DEAF EARS AT JAYCO. That was days back folks.
SERVICE NOT.
Hey Jim
Cupie said
03:56 PM Feb 24, 2016
iana wrote:
Thanks Cupie, but I am aware of all that. The problem is that Jayco have got the compliance plate wrong, and have set a limit of 200kg max as a tow ball weight. With just the first water tank, i.e. nearest the axles, full, my tow ball weight is over that limit, and that is with none of our gear in it. Its a mess caused by the grey water tank being put at the rear of the axle where the second water tank should be. Looks like I will have to remove the grey water tank, move the 2nd water tank back where it should be, I have been told they won't do it under warranty.
Sorry .. I misunderstood your problem.
Is the 200kg a limit or their weighed/calculated figure?
Tow ball weights are not mentioned on my old 1999 Jayco compliance plate. Its ball weight is 271kg fully loaded.
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 07:55:10 PM
iana said
04:28 PM Feb 24, 2016
From what I have learnt from two commercial sources, lots of people are having this problem. The ATM of this van is 3260 so the max ball loading should be at least 10% of that. I think that Jayco's engineering is a bit screwed up.
brickies said
05:50 PM Feb 24, 2016
Lana your ute is well up on the front would have to be light on the steering .
blaze said
05:58 PM Feb 24, 2016
there is no legal need to have 10% as far as I am aware, its just a figure that is bandied about. If it tows well with 5% use 5
cheers
blaze
iana said
07:17 PM Feb 24, 2016
Don't worry about vehicle attitude, yet to be sorted ? what does max ball loading mean, I know what it says but is it a warranty thing? either way its wrong.
-- Edited by iana on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 07:18:25 PM
I could be wrong Ian but it looks to me like you could have 320kg max towball weight. It Would also depend on your tow bar max too.
Bill B said
08:58 PM Feb 24, 2016
Dougwe wrote:
I could be wrong Ian but it looks to me like you could have 320kg max towball weight. It Would also depend on your tow bar max too.
How do you come to that conclusion Doug ?
Compliance plate quite clearly states max ball weight of 200 kgs.
Dougwe said
09:21 PM Feb 24, 2016
How Bill, as I said, could be wrong. The ATM is showing 3260kg and I am on the understanding that tow ball is 10% of that. The actual tow bar could be different though and probably is.
Edit....sorry pushed the wrong button. If I read the thread correctly the plate weights are all over the place and Ian is concerned about that.
Be gentle Bill as Uncle Al got up first today
-- Edited by Dougwe on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 09:24:59 PM
Hey Jim said
09:27 PM Feb 24, 2016
Dougwe wrote:
I could be wrong Ian but it looks to me like you could have 320kg max towball weight. It Would also depend on your tow bar max too.
Come on Dougwe, Ian will be chucking Mono's all the way down the Hwy.
We got a Reply from JAYCO SYDNEY After I sent another Email at Lunch time , This time to the Sales Manager. It Says Re Warranty on #%@&*. Full stop. Nothing . Just A Blank.
Ho its five o'clock Knock OFF Time. Will finnish off with another Email Tommorrow. They can wait another day, Week, Month or what ever.
Jim & Lambie
Hylife said
09:40 PM Feb 24, 2016
Just my opinion from the pics.
That pic shows a very light duty drawbar on the van. As it is a tandem axel, towball weights are usually lighter than those for a single axel.
Your empty ball mass of 153kg is 5% of the tare of 2785kg and the max towball of 200 is 6% of the ATM of 3260. I would consider these quite acceptable with that small profile drawbar.
Suggest you redistribute your weight or get the drawbar replaced with something a little heavier.
Oh, and as for the swaying, no vehicle is made with appropriate shocks and springs to tow a caravan. Utes are designed for a static weight placed directly over the axel. Just because they say a vehicle can pull XXXXkg doesn't mean it will do it well. They all need their suspension replaced with something more suitable when you put a van on the back. Go visit Pedders with the van attached so they can measure things up.
Grey fox said
10:39 PM Feb 24, 2016
Just as a mater of interest what is the braked towing capacity of the ute. And the Gcm(weight of loaded ute plus loaded van)
iana said
12:35 AM Feb 25, 2016
The van is an Outback Silverline. The drawbar is 50 x 125 RHS. It is rated for rough roads, but not off road bush tracks. The vehicle is a Mazda BT50, Ute Aggregate GVM 3200, Ute Tare wgt. 2040,
Allowable load 1160, Estimated load carried 975.75, Load allowance remaining 110.25, braked towing capacity of the ute is 3500. Tow bar rated for 350kg. Combined vehicle mass is 6550.
As I am sailing a bit close to the wind on CVM, Pedders have recommended a national GCM upgrade to give me another 300kg. yet to decide on that.
The sales person who sold the van is looking into the matter of max ball weight. Springs and WDH will be addressed shortly.
As far as loading is concerned, having a wander around the caravan park at the weekend, I was blown away with the amount of junk people have installed on their "A" frames, and with utes absolutely choker with gear.
And Dougwe, yes 320kg would be the figure that should be on the compliance plate, its a bit stupid when some staff member at the van sales depot tells you, you can't put anything in the front boot, and must load everything in the back behind the axle, which is what happened. And that the second water tank is only there for looks.
dogbox said
12:47 PM Feb 25, 2016
iana wrote:
The van is an Outback Silverline. The drawbar is 50 x 125 RHS. It is rated for rough roads, but not off road bush tracks. The vehicle is a Mazda BT50, Ute Aggregate GVM 3200, Ute Tare wgt. 2040, Allowable load 1160, Estimated load carried 975.75, Load allowance remaining 110.25, braked towing capacity of the ute is 3500. Tow bar rated for 350kg. Combined vehicle mass is 6550. As I am sailing a bit close to the wind on CVM, Pedders have recommended a national GCM upgrade to give me another 300kg. yet to decide on that. The sales person who sold the van is looking into the matter of max ball weight. Springs and WDH will be addressed shortly.
As far as loading is concerned, having a wander around the caravan park at the weekend, I was blown away with the amount of junk people have installed on their "A" frames, and with utes absolutely choker with gear.
And Dougwe, yes 320kg would be the figure that should be on the compliance plate, its a bit stupid when some staff member at the van sales depot tells you, you can't put anything in the front boot, and must load everything in the back behind the axle, which is what happened. And that the second water tank is only there for looks.
the numbers you have quoted confuse me the gcm of 6550 kg where has this come from I can find no reference to it in the Boucher which states a gcm of 5950 kgs an the allowable load on the ute would include the tow ball down load
iana said
07:26 PM Feb 25, 2016
That GCM figure comes from the WA Dept. of Transport third party insurance policy. Its an extra cab with alloy tray, each vehicle fitted with such has to be individually weighed. Now I see another members van has a max ball weight of 330kg, its a bit of a sick joke.
-- Edited by iana on Thursday 25th of February 2016 07:26:46 PM
-- Edited by iana on Thursday 25th of February 2016 07:27:04 PM
Bill B said
08:11 PM Feb 25, 2016
iana wrote:
That GCM figure comes from the WA Dept. of Transport third party insurance policy. Its an extra cab with alloy tray, each vehicle fitted with such has to be individually weighed. Now I see another members van has a max ball weight of 330kg, its a bit of a sick joke.
-- Edited by iana on Thursday 25th of February 2016 07:26:46 PM
-- Edited by iana on Thursday 25th of February 2016 07:27:04 PM
Suggest that you have a good read of the following : https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/
GCM of Mazda BT50/Ford Ranger is 5,950/6,000 kgs.
iana said
10:17 PM Feb 25, 2016
I have emailed Mazda for clarification, I can't find a compliance plate on the vehicle. However that info really throws a cat amongst the pigeons. I know the vehicle was a special build, but the brochure clearly says 6000, and on my registration it says 6550.
Kantiki said
05:22 PM Feb 27, 2016
Firstly your van looks great. Hope you have lots of great adventures.
I have no chance of understanding all these weights etc. I just wanted to say that we have a Jayco towed by a bt50. Hubby says it tows beautifully and we dont use a WDH. It does have a heavy duty tow bar and it rides very level. If someone thinks the op's ute is sitting high at the front, that is just how they look, even with no load.
Kantiki said
05:23 PM Feb 27, 2016
Firstly your van looks great. Hope you have lots of great adventures. I have no chance of understanding all these weights etc. I just wanted to say that we have a Jayco towed by a bt50. Hubby says it tows beautifully and we dont use a WDH. It does have a heavy duty tow bar and it rides very level. If someone thinks the op's ute is sitting high at the front, that is just how they look, even with no load.
iana said
08:17 PM Feb 27, 2016
Thanks Kantiki, nice to have a reply that isn't criticizing, arguing or giving a lecture. That picture was taken when we first got the van for insurance purposes, and I think it had water in the front tank. I see you have a similar van, door at the back and probably bed at the front. We just wanted a van that was comfortable, as we intend to live in it permanently and tour. So a different set of circumstances arise as opposed to those who have a base, and only use their van on short trips. Our main wish was for recliner chairs, so it was this van or none.
The BT50 / Ranger were the ute that had the biggest motor and a high towing capacity in the class. I have found that fitting all the accessories on to the dash a bit of a challenge.
You are right, the weights and the law are trying to say the least, my inventory/ load list is such that we are sailing close to the wind, the bigger the van and the more weight you have the more critical these figures become.
At the moment the Jayco agency have written to head office and are trying to get a revised compliance plate, while the Mazda dealer is looking into the weights on the vehicle and will let me know on Monday.
Footprints said
09:57 PM Feb 27, 2016
Looking closely at the photo, to my eyes the ute is not sitting lower at the rear. Upon closer inspection if you look at the sill beneath the door the ute is quite level however it is the tray which has been mounted with a slight slope downwards to the rear which is giving the illusion that the rear is sagging. I suggest that you do not jump in too soon spending hard earned cash when you may not need too. focus on a properly loaded and weighted van first and make decisions re the ute at a later stage if the need arises. Cheers Allen
iana said
12:02 AM Feb 28, 2016
Like I said that picture was one of a few taken as asked for by our insurer. Its hooked on as it was picked up from the supplier, no weight and balance issues addressed. The ute still has to have the canopy fitted to it, and will need the rear springs at least upgraded. If that pictures shows the ute up or down, or twisted in any way it means nothing.
Finally took the beast for a week.end camp. Couldn't take much gear, as we have issues in the weight department. Tended to pitch a lot, and was sensitive to the wind (sideways sway), but semi-trailers didn't effect it. As for the TV, poor reception, not watchable. Looks like I have to get a WDH, the place where I brought my tow bar from said Utes are worse than SV's or cars having so much overhang, and still to get the springs done on the UTE. Still waiting for a response back from Jayco about the tow ball weight figures.
Looks like a great rig.
I wouldn't move out of the yard without a WDH, but others have a different view.
Easy to measure the ball weight with one or two kitchen scales. (see the method below .. from Caravan Plus) Who ever sold you the van will, I'm sure, have a set of the special scales to measure the weight for free. Only takes a couple of minutes.
I would have thought that Jayco would have been on the ball with this. I find that their TBWs are usually rather high. Mine is.
re TV reception ..
Was the power to the mast head amplifier switched on?
I improved my reception by fitting a 'Wingman' array to my 'Winegard' though I would expect that a new van would have a good digital array fitted.
Bathroom Scales: A set of bathroom scales placed under the caravans tow point will tell you the weight on your tow ball.
Most bathroom scales will not read high enough so follow the below trick to get your Ball Load.
You should use a spacer to hold your van at the same height as when hooked to your car.
A) Place a piece of timber between a your bathroom scales and something like a brick to get to same height.
B) Rest the spacer 300mm from the brick and 600mm from the scales. Use a pipe or narrow piece of timber to concentrate the weight at the correct location.
C) Place the Caravans tow point on the spacer. Multiply the weight on the scales by 3.
If the scales read 100kg then the Ball Load is really 300kg (100kg on scales plus 200kg on brick).
Therefore you would need a hitch rated above 300kg.
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 09:21:46 AM
Looks like I will have to remove the grey water tank, move the 2nd water tank back where it should be, I have been told they won't do it under warranty.
Hi Ian,
We feel for you. We know what your going through. Two water tanks in front of both axles for us. GW at the rear.
We threw the second spare out of the front cradle 24.2kg. unbolted the Jack in the front boot, and threw that out as well 5.3kg. I would like to here from their engineer as to what he / she has to say on the matter.
I SENT JAYCO SYDNEY AN EMAIL. EMAIL, YOU GOT EMAIL, HULLO. ANYONE IN THE OFFICE AT SYDNEY JAYCO. FALLS ON DEAF EARS AT JAYCO. That was days back folks.
SERVICE NOT.
Hey Jim
Sorry .. I misunderstood your problem.
Is the 200kg a limit or their weighed/calculated figure?
Tow ball weights are not mentioned on my old 1999 Jayco compliance plate. Its ball weight is 271kg fully loaded.
-- Edited by Cupie on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 07:55:10 PM
cheers
blaze
Don't worry about vehicle attitude, yet to be sorted ? what does max ball loading mean, I know what it says but is it a warranty thing? either way its wrong.
-- Edited by iana on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 07:18:25 PM
How do you come to that conclusion Doug ?
Compliance plate quite clearly states max ball weight of 200 kgs.
How Bill, as I said, could be wrong. The ATM is showing 3260kg and I am on the understanding that tow ball is 10% of that. The actual tow bar could be different though and probably is.
Edit....sorry pushed the wrong button. If I read the thread correctly the plate weights are all over the place and Ian is concerned about that.
Be gentle Bill as Uncle Al got up first today
-- Edited by Dougwe on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 09:24:59 PM
Come on Dougwe, Ian will be chucking Mono's all the way down the Hwy.
We got a Reply from JAYCO SYDNEY After I sent another Email at Lunch time , This time to the Sales Manager. It Says Re Warranty on #%@&*. Full stop. Nothing . Just A Blank.
Ho its five o'clock Knock OFF Time. Will finnish off with another Email Tommorrow. They can wait another day, Week, Month or what ever.
Jim & Lambie
Just my opinion from the pics.
That pic shows a very light duty drawbar on the van. As it is a tandem axel, towball weights are usually lighter than those for a single axel.
Your empty ball mass of 153kg is 5% of the tare of 2785kg and the max towball of 200 is 6% of the ATM of 3260. I would consider these quite acceptable with that small profile drawbar.
Suggest you redistribute your weight or get the drawbar replaced with something a little heavier.
Oh, and as for the swaying, no vehicle is made with appropriate shocks and springs to tow a caravan. Utes are designed for a static weight placed directly over the axel. Just because they say a vehicle can pull XXXXkg doesn't mean it will do it well. They all need their suspension replaced with something more suitable when you put a van on the back. Go visit Pedders with the van attached so they can measure things up.
Just as a mater of interest what is the braked towing capacity of the ute. And the Gcm(weight of loaded ute plus loaded van)
Allowable load 1160, Estimated load carried 975.75, Load allowance remaining 110.25, braked towing capacity of the ute is 3500. Tow bar rated for 350kg. Combined vehicle mass is 6550.
As I am sailing a bit close to the wind on CVM, Pedders have recommended a national GCM upgrade to give me another 300kg. yet to decide on that.
The sales person who sold the van is looking into the matter of max ball weight. Springs and WDH will be addressed shortly.
As far as loading is concerned, having a wander around the caravan park at the weekend, I was blown away with the amount of junk people have installed on their "A" frames, and with utes absolutely choker with gear.
And Dougwe, yes 320kg would be the figure that should be on the compliance plate, its a bit stupid when some staff member at the van sales depot tells you, you can't put anything in the front boot, and must load everything in the back behind the axle, which is what happened. And that the second water tank is only there for looks.
the numbers you have quoted confuse me the gcm of 6550 kg where has this come from I can find no reference to it in the Boucher which states a gcm of 5950 kgs an the allowable load on the ute would include the tow ball down load
That GCM figure comes from the WA Dept. of Transport third party insurance policy. Its an extra cab with alloy tray, each vehicle fitted with such has to be individually weighed. Now I see another members van has a max ball weight of 330kg, its a bit of a sick joke.
-- Edited by iana on Thursday 25th of February 2016 07:26:46 PM
-- Edited by iana on Thursday 25th of February 2016 07:27:04 PM
Suggest that you have a good read of the following : https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/
GCM of Mazda BT50/Ford Ranger is 5,950/6,000 kgs.
I have no chance of understanding all these weights etc. I just wanted to say that we have a Jayco towed by a bt50. Hubby says it tows beautifully and we dont use a WDH. It does have a heavy duty tow bar and it rides very level. If someone thinks the op's ute is sitting high at the front, that is just how they look, even with no load.
Firstly your van looks great. Hope you have lots of great adventures. I have no chance of understanding all these weights etc. I just wanted to say that we have a Jayco towed by a bt50. Hubby says it tows beautifully and we dont use a WDH. It does have a heavy duty tow bar and it rides very level. If someone thinks the op's ute is sitting high at the front, that is just how they look, even with no load.
The BT50 / Ranger were the ute that had the biggest motor and a high towing capacity in the class. I have found that fitting all the accessories on to the dash a bit of a challenge.
You are right, the weights and the law are trying to say the least, my inventory/ load list is such that we are sailing close to the wind, the bigger the van and the more weight you have the more critical these figures become.
At the moment the Jayco agency have written to head office and are trying to get a revised compliance plate, while the Mazda dealer is looking into the weights on the vehicle and will let me know on Monday.
Looking closely at the photo, to my eyes the ute is not sitting lower at the rear. Upon closer inspection if you look at the sill beneath the door the ute is quite level however it is the tray which has been mounted with a slight slope downwards to the rear which is giving the illusion that the rear is sagging. I suggest that you do not jump in too soon spending hard earned cash when you may not need too. focus on a properly loaded and weighted van first and make decisions re the ute at a later stage if the need arises. Cheers Allen