Just wondering what others think of the ball weights as entered on the compliance plate of our new van.
Empty Ball mass: 153Kg
Max ball loading: 200Kg
Tare: 2785
GTM: 3107
ATM: 3260
I tried to insert a photo, but it just doesn't work for me.
Hey Jim said
10:25 PM Jan 30, 2016
Hi Ian,
I just took a look see at ours close up.
Out of the factory set up. The ball weight 199kg (Brochure 174kg). We have a extended 300mm draw bar + second spare tyre in aframe. This spare weigh's 24.2kg now removed till I load it up. Compliance plate says GTM 2276kg. ATM 2475kg. Max Ball weight 240kg. Axle group 2667kg load capacity.
ATM on the axle group= 2475kg + Max ball weight 240kg =2715kg GTM 2276kg + Max ball weight =240Kg = 2516kg I to need an expert.
Jim
iana said
11:29 PM Jan 30, 2016
Hi Jim, Same make van, different model, but uneasy about those figures. Every document I have read has said tow ball weight should be between 8-10% of the ATM. Yours is correct, but mine is way too light. I have rung up the agents, and the reply was not to worry. I'm interested in what others have to say about those weights, its 25ft long and to be towed by a BT50. Both have ESC brake system, but I don't want worn out brakes and high fuel consumption. Also how did they come up with a max ball loading of 200 kg, when the brochure states 240 or 220 ball weight? (depending on model).
-- Edited by iana on Saturday 30th of January 2016 11:29:49 PM
TheHeaths said
07:54 AM Jan 31, 2016
Ian,
I seem to remember your van is from Jayco.
They come up with the weights as follows. The Maximum Ball weight they now quote has only been done for the past few years.
so, Jayco weights are done by weighing each individual van as it comes off of the assembly line with the accessories they fit in the factory, not any that are dealer added later. It is wise to get everything done in the factory to ensure that accessories don't come off of the weight allowance after being fitted by the dealer.
So, Jayco weigh your van in total, and get your Tare. They then weigh the ball weight to get your Empty Ball Weight. This varies from van to van due to the way things are added to the van during build. Then using your Tare figure, they add a Load Allowance off 475 kg for a tandem shower van, to get your ATM. Then they take the Ball Weight from that to get the GTM, of weight on the wheels. Finally they add 10% of the load allowance to your empty ball weight to get a calculated maximum ball weight.
So with your van, Tare was 2785, add 475 gives an ATM of 3260, less empty ball weight of 153 gives a GTM of 3103. Add 10% of 475 (47 kg) to 153, and you get your calculate maximum ball weight of 200 kg.
So, having said that, as you say we are all guided to have 8 - 12 % (or thereabouts) ball weight when loaded, and we now see that this is not the figure being quoted by the maker. I suggest that you read a copy of the latest Caravan World magazine, as this 10% figure is one of the myths that they suggest does not apply so much now, and we should not be fixated on this, but should just see how the set up tows when loaded. They base their comments on the fact that the Euro vans, and Euro style vans, that we now see have much lower ball weights compared to their Tare/ATM.
I am not trying to justify what they do, just answer you questions why it has happened compared to the brochure figures.
As for your van Jim, I would suggest using my information, your Empty Ball weight (the only one the factory can actually measure) is the one you need to add to figures to get the figures shown on your compliance plate. Do not use the maximum ball weight as that is a calculated, not actual figure, and a guide only. Once again, the ball weight varies from the brochure due to the way your van is built, and additional items fitted at time of build and their position on the van.
Hope this at least helps clarify in your mind why your plates say what they do.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 31st of January 2016 08:57:48 AM
TheHeaths said
08:56 AM Jan 31, 2016
Ian,
As an addendum to my answer, our van had a compliance Tare of 2153 kg, an ATM of 2628 kg, with an Empty Ball of 187 kg ( 8.7% of Tare), and a Max Ball weight of 234 kg (8.9% of ATM). I then had load upgraded from 475 kg to 600 kg, which moved ATM to 2753 kg and Max ball weight to 247 kg (adding 13 kg or 10% of the additional 125 kg load), and thus a loaded Ball weight of 8.97%.
I have found that the van tows fine at this level, and I suggest you will find the same.
PS Jim and Ian, I have never weighed the van full to see if I load to the ball or GTM. I do know we load below ATM as I have weighed everything before we travelled and come up with a load figure of 410 kg without water but everything else (including kitchen sink!) on board. When we travel with water I load 140 litres of water or thereabouts, lifting load to 550 kg. If the ball is a little high, the car (2006 100 series Cruiser "Pov" Pack) can carry it, and I do not consider the extra weight that may be on the ball (possibly up to 275 - 300 kg in total) is detrimental to the car, its handling (as I have helper "Air Bags " so I can adjust suspension), or the integrity of the vans construction.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 31st of January 2016 08:59:22 AM
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 31st of January 2016 08:59:54 AM
iana said
09:39 AM Jan 31, 2016
Thankyou Ian, that info parallels with what I found on the net. It appears that the 10% figure has come from North America who have a apparent rule that the ball weight should be between 10-15%. However this weight coming back onto the back of the vehicle meant vehicle manufacturers would have to use harder springs on the rear of vehicles to cope. Looks like the vehicle manufacturers in Europe have had their way, and use 5-8% as a ball weight and so the fancy BMW's etc. can have nice soft suspension.
This information now explains why we are seeing very light looking vans coming out from Europe, some very long and only single axle. I can remember reading that they also use hitches that are braked to help reduce sway, and of course the development of the ESC system's (which is fitted to our van), would be a direct result of this.
The article I read which I saved a copy of if anyone is interested, said that there is no evidence that excessive ball weight stops sway (10-15%), but went on to say that its the "pendulum" effect that causes the sway due to weights being positioned at the extremities of the vehicle. If all the heavy weights are positioned over the axles, then the tendency to sway is reduced. This includes positioning water tanks close each side of the axles, but not to have both or all the water tanks mounted forward of the axles. Guess how they have mounted mine.
I couldn't find any Australian rule that says the tow ball weight should be 10% of the van weight, and with our van those figures come out to 5.5%. And yes my van is a little different, having the club lounge at the front removed, and if as what you say weighed empty. I suppose the fridge was also not installed as I got an inverter fridge. Now with the recliner chairs installed and the fridge installed, water now in the tanks (forward) the ball weight will have gone up. however that stupid figure of 200kg max ball load is probably going to be reached before we even put anything inside the van.
The salesman did ask if I wanted the load capacity of the van increased, and as I said its the CVM that's the important factor, and I didn't want to further increase my towing load, I said no. He did not mention that the max ball weight would be calculated as 10% of the allowable load added onto the empty ball weight and stamped on the compliance plate. In my opinion this figure should not be entered, as maximum ball weight should be what is stamped on the towbar, in my case 350KG and also be a factor of the load ratings of the hitch.
I guess the weights and measure boys (and girls) will be concentrating on CMV and ATM rather than max ball weights stamped on the van compliance plate.
Hey Jim said
10:37 AM Jan 31, 2016
Hi Ian & Ian, = The Twins
Well I'm pulling the Jayco Journey Outback 17.55-3 with the double bed at the front, with our 200 GX Cruiser with 350kg max ball weight ( air bags fitted). The tow truck and the van both have ESC fitted.
I have brought a wire luggage car basket (on sale from Repco $75 just before Xmas) to mount on the Aframe. fits like a glove to carry our firewood collected each day as we go along. So most of the time it will be empty. Haven't weighed the basket yet but would weigh about 15kg at a guess. So at days end, for a few hours with a load of F/W I will be over on the ball, out in the Never Never.
The Twins , we had fitted on the assembly line a 82lt grey water tank mounted at the rear. The van comes with 2x 82 water tanks as standard. On ours they fitted a larger tank in front, of the front axle and a smaller tank 75lt forward of this one. So I will pump from the smaller tank first to keep the weight in check.
By the time I load bulky items in the front boot, along with the standard 2 x 9kg gas bottles, I would think the ball weight will be up to 250kg The second spare fits under the floor of the truck now.
I have brought a Repco tow ball weight measuring post. There not heavy, $49 on sale. (Love sales) I have not used it yet, but intend to carry it as insurance. If we ever get pulled up and want to go on with it, I will pull out our device and ask for leniency on this occasion.
Other wise Trying to do the right thing, Your Honour with our instrument. What do you think.
Regards Jim
iana said
10:44 AM Jan 31, 2016
What do I think? I think "How I wish I had have brought a fifth wheeler" and not had to put up with all this weight and balance stuff.
Hylife said
12:09 PM Jan 31, 2016
The 'traditional' 10% figure was only ever an approximate for dumb cnuts to make the maths easy, shift the decimal point one place to the left and thats close enough.
It also is meant to be applied to single axel not tandem axel.
Manufacturers are now quoting maximum ball weight because of the proliferation of van owners who after-market go loading up either the rear bumper or the drawbar with lots of weighty objects like additional batteries, generators and tool boxes and the like, and then the framing is stressed beyond its safe working loads when you start driving on wavey sea-saw roads.
iana said
05:08 PM Jan 31, 2016
OK I have filled the water tanks, full twin gas bottles, linen on the bed and have nothing else in the van. The tow ball weighs 260KG, 60kg over the compliance plate max ball weight of 200kg, and I've nothing else in the van, no food, no clothes and nothing else. I thinks its time to contact the dealer, and have the van re-weighed and a new compliance plate fitted. All I can say is that this is dammed ridiculous and shouldn't happen.
Hey Jim!! did you get a remote breakaway battery monitor with your van?, if you did be careful, I tried my unit today, plugged it into a cigarette lighter socket of the tug, and the cheap and nasty plug flew too bits in the socket and shorted out the supply with the loose bits. Examining the plug, there is no way the threads will hold against the nut, that contains the guts of the unit. Check it out and perhaps replace the plug with a better quality one.
TheHeaths said
06:02 PM Jan 31, 2016
Ian,
I certainly agree that the van should be manufactured to allow the ball weight to be up to the tow bar/vehicle max. This would then remove a lot of issues re loading, as long as the vehicle handles how the driver wants.
Certainly, with your issue when the tanks are full, it would be worth talking to your dealer re changing the compliance plate max ball weight. I don't know that Jayco will go to the 350 kg of your vehicle, but I have seen on the Jayco forum where they have gone as far as 300 kg I believe.
Good luck with your contact with them.
Jim, all you can do is try and do the right thing with the weight, and set the vehicle up to be happy with yourself, particularly if you are remote a lot of the time.
Baz421 said
08:52 PM Jan 31, 2016
Hylife wrote:
The 'traditional' 10% figure was only ever an approximate for dumb cnuts to make the maths easy, shift the decimal point one place to the left and thats close enough.
It also is meant to be applied to single axel not tandem axel.
You sure about your statement ref single axles,,,, what about load sharing tandems????
In my experience it has applied to all.
Hey Jim said
09:41 PM Jan 31, 2016
iana wrote:
OK I have filled the water tanks, full twin gas bottles, linen on the bed and have nothing else in the van. The tow ball weighs 260KG, 60kg over the compliance plate max ball weight of 200kg, and I've nothing else in the van, no food, no clothes and nothing else. I thinks its time to contact the dealer, and have the van re-weighed and a new compliance plate fitted. All I can say is that this is dammed ridiculous and shouldn't happen. Hey Jim!! did you get a remote breakaway battery monitor with your van?, if you did be careful, I tried my unit today, plugged it into a cigarette lighter socket of the tug, and the cheap and nasty plug flew too bits in the socket and shorted out the supply with the loose bits. Examining the plug, there is no way the threads will hold against the nut, that contains the guts of the unit. Check it out and perhaps replace the plug with a better quality one.
Hi Ian,
Oh deary me, What did you measure that with. 260kg.
Yes we have the breakaway system fitted as well. Are they standard issue on this unit???? Thanks for the warning. I Most certainly will check this one out ASPS.
Did they supply a Reversing camera on your van and a safe box as well. Ours did. Not listed as a standard nor did we order either. nor pay for same. Makes me think they got orders mixed up some what. What's on the van stays on the van.
Ge said
10:02 PM Jan 31, 2016
Hi Guys yes i am new to caravans and are bloody confused.
i do after a lot of reading agree with The Heaths about vehicle ball waits as to much over this could maybe damage your
chassis. Any way i am still learning about ball waits, did not have a problem with loading and weights over last 45 years as a truckie
doing all sorts of loads from general and livestock ect.
I have read this stuff if it is any help.
The 'traditional' 10% figure was only ever an approximate for dumb cnuts to make the maths easy, shift the decimal point one place to the left and thats close enough.
Are you sure? 10.00% according to your statement would become 1.00%. That translates to a 2900kg caravan having a ball weight of 29kg. I wouldn't like to be following that much less driving it.
I think only a dumb cnut would promote this.
iana said
11:44 PM Jan 31, 2016
To weigh the tow ball weight I used two 150kg bathroom scales.
The breakaway monitor is a black box supplied with the breakaway unit that allows the driver to see at a glance the state of the breakaway battery. This is to comply with new regulations in NSW. It was supplied with my van. It powers up from a cigarette lighter aux socket.
Yes to the camera, looks at the ground behind the van. Yes to the security box. Re the camera, I have fitted another camera to the tug on the chassis that allows me to see the ball when coupling, and as I have a canopy, gives me rear vision when not coupled to the van. Nothing that a pair of side cutters and a soldering iron can't do.
To Ge, I wanted a fifth wheeler, but cost and the manufacturers' reluctance to come down to my spec's stopped that. These problems are minor when towing those. I don't understand why there isn't more of a push to bring 5th wheelers into the market now we have all these good towing utes. They would be much safer.
iana said
08:41 PM Feb 1, 2016
Just an up-date, I went and saw the Jayco agency where I brought the van, A salesman asked if he could help, and I told him about the problem, he said my scales were wrong. I then asked him to have a look at other vans of the same model but with the club lounge and he refused.
I went and had a talk with the service dept., and at that time I was a little hot under the collar, the guy behind the counter said that's the way it weighed at the time, No I couldn't get the GVM increased now its left the factory, and if I write them a letter, they will pass it onto Jayco to see if they will increase the maximum ball weight.
What I am finding so frustrating is that they don't even have to put these figures on the compliance plate. And one day I am going to have to try and explain to some prospective buyer, that these figures mean nothing.
-- Edited by iana on Monday 1st of February 2016 08:42:43 PM
Thanks migra, I have read may of those information articles on the net. But I have been busy! emptied all the water out of the tanks, removed the gas cylinders, took out every movable object from the van including the lounge chairs.
The ball weight of the van "nude" (actually I left the TV in place, drat! was 164kg so a discrepancy of 11kg. (153kg on compliance plate.)
I filled the water tank nearest the axles (forward of ) 189kg
Re installed the gas cylinders. 211kg. Reached the maximum ball weight!
Installed the chairs and fire extinguisher (extinguisher not supplied with van) 231kg.
Filled the front water tank. 260kg
No clothing, food or equipment in the boot yet.
Hey Jim said
10:54 PM Feb 2, 2016
Hi Ian,
I hope we are not in for the same. My wife likes to travel with plenty of spares. I might have to do a cull.
I sent you a PM as a solution. Dose your van have 100mm or 125mm Aframe Ian.
When we are showing friends the van, with four standing inside at the rear the van doesn't flinch, (with out the supports down and unhitched.)
Jim
iana said
12:13 AM Feb 3, 2016
Thanks for the message "hey Jim", I looked up those items on ebay, but I would prefer to get an official compliance plate change from Jayco. What this has brought home to me is just how sensitive the weight and balance is with a long van. It was interesting the different responses from the different persons at the sales outlet had. The last being that I cant put anything in the boot except the lightest of articles, and that I have to load everything to the rear. What in those tiny wardrobes and excuses for shelves.
From my figures it is quite clear that Jayco weighed the vehicle without any seating in place. The difference in my figures to theirs of 11kg is that I left the jockey wheel on (in case something slipped) and I had left the TV mounted.
I will write to Jayco and ask them to amend or just leave blank the "Max Ball loading", as you asked I have the 125mm draw bar, and a 3500kg tow bar fitted to the ute. Because they have fitted a "Grey" water tank to the rear tank position, both water tanks are forward of the axles, with No2 mounted way too far forward making it useless, i.e. putting the ball weight up at 260kg before we have even put food and belongings into the van.
It appears to me that some chopping and changing needs to occur, with the grey water tank being positioned longitudinally between the wishbones on the suspension, and the second water tank positioned back where it should be.
We are now regretting buying the outback model, as that makes the unit higher and heavier. The only reason we choose that model was that the tire sizes were the same as the ute.
Luckily we've done something right in buying the extra cab ute with tray back and have put a Boston canopy on it. Articles I am reading say to have the tug as heavy as possible in relation to the van. We will have to do this because we can't carry much in the van.
Its easy to see why Jayco have fitted ESC stability control to their vans.
greyhoundtom said
08:37 AM Feb 3, 2016
I too have had some interesting problems recently trying to get the van and tow vehicle to legal allowable weights as listed on the compliance plate, and in particularly the ball weight.
However then only to comply with the maximums allowed on the tow vehicle in regard to ball weight as the vans compliance plate only mentions an empty ball weight, and does not list a maximum ball weight.
The scary bit was that after loading everything I thought I needed to carry in the front boot and under the bed which is located at the front of the van, as well as filling the water tanks, the ball weight was 120 Kg more than the maximum allowed on the tug. Bugger!
So far I have culled the tools I thought I needed, shifted both batteries from under the bed to under the dinette seating located above the wheels, fitted two decent size solar panels just on the rear edge of the wheels, and created a bit of storage space just at the rear edge of the wheels for extension cords etc. to get them out of the front boot. As well as doing a major rethink as to what is capable of being carried in under the bed space.
So far all of this has resulted in a fair bit of grizzling by the other half for losing some of her stuff, including having the generator put back in the shed, but most importantly ball weight is back to within the tugs allowances, and in fact I have about 20Kg to spare.
Now to take the whole van back over a weigh bridge in the next couple of weeks to see what the overall picture looks like in regard to maximum weights listed on the compliance plate.
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 08:39:33 AM
Hey Jim said
01:49 PM Feb 3, 2016
Hi Ian, I'm in the same position as you. With the second tank way to far forward. when I get a break from working around the clock trying to sign off from full time to part time, I will have a good hard look to see IF I can place the 75lt water tank behind the rear wheels. There's plenty of hanging mounts in place, so with the head screwed on and measuring six times it may work.
I pitty folks who can't or are unable to do the fixers that need fixing.
Jayco couldn't give a toss where they end up placing bits below floor level. If they took the time to do it right first go they would have a lot more happy customers.
Ian If your van jack is mounted in the same position as ours,(Smack in the middle of the boot.) I would mount it towards the rear. Its another 2kg moved.
Im also thinking that Jayco may have filled the grey tank to get your ball weight down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Food for thought.
Try the ball weight with it filled and lets us know the out come.
Jim
greyhoundtom said
04:26 PM Feb 3, 2016
If it's a Jayco and you are moving a water tank to a new location, double check the distance between floor joists to make sure as Jayco have specific tank locations where the floor joists are further apart to take the width of the water tank.
I didn't double check and stupidly thought all the floor joists spacings were the same and I could just move the tank to a new location. Hell of a lot of work putting it all back where it came from.
iana said
05:18 PM Feb 3, 2016
The saga continues, the suspension people took another look at the figures and now want to do a GVM upgrade on the vehicle. My CVM and ute GVM are sailing too close to the wind. Good bye to another $3000. I have already sussed out that the frame work under the floor is strategically placed for the water tanks. But for construction, not weight and balance. The grey water tank is the cause of the problem there, causing both water tanks to be mounted forward of the axle.
When I went in to buy the van, the salesman started by asking what vehicle I had. Told him 3.2 BT50 and he said I would romp in choose any van in the lot. Hmmmmm.
-- Edited by iana on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 05:19:14 PM
Hey Jim said
11:35 PM Feb 4, 2016
Hi Ian,
I got on the garage creeper late this afternoon. My front water tank is only a 75lt job not the stated 82lt from Jayco. The way they have set up the plumbing I have bucklies of filling the tank completely first off.
The tank is 360mm wide and will be a simple exercise to move it back into the next set of cross members. the holes for the tank strapes are already there. the water tubing need only to be shortened by the same amount. the wiring disconnects via male & female to be rerouted. this will move this tank back by 400mm. Maths wise the tank and gal sheet under 75lt =75kg+ tank 10kg = 85kg back by 400mm = how much off the ballweight???????????????? better then non at all. I will retest when completed. I may gain 20kg at best.
Why Jayco couldn't have done this so begger's belief.
The only way I can see around the frame work would be a costly custom S/Steel flat tank (1200mm Lx 350mm W x 150mm) behind the axle group and about 60lts at most.
Jayco are not serious about their engineering only cost savings on the assembly line.
The bed end starts in front of the front axle so putting lots of stuff under the bed, will have to be housed in the foot end only to keep things in check. CULL.
I'm lucky I only sleep in my Jocks.
I'm even moving the tap on the Aframe back under the van. That's where I wanted it in the first place. 40grams.
I'll get there yet.
Jim
iana said
09:41 PM Feb 8, 2016
Hopeful news on my van, had a reply back from the supplier, they have applied to Jayco for a new compliance plate and to be able to move the water tank back under warranty. All fingers and toes crossed.
hey Jim, I hope you checked out those cross members properly, on my van some of the cross members are rotated 180 degrees, so you can't fit the tank in that space.
Just wondering what others think of the ball weights as entered on the compliance plate of our new van.
Empty Ball mass: 153Kg
Max ball loading: 200Kg
Tare: 2785
GTM: 3107
ATM: 3260
I tried to insert a photo, but it just doesn't work for me.
Hi Ian,
I just took a look see at ours close up.
Out of the factory set up. The ball weight 199kg (Brochure 174kg). We have a extended 300mm draw bar + second spare tyre in aframe. This spare weigh's 24.2kg now removed till I load it up. Compliance plate says GTM 2276kg. ATM 2475kg. Max Ball weight 240kg. Axle group 2667kg load capacity.
ATM on the axle group= 2475kg + Max ball weight 240kg =2715kg
GTM 2276kg + Max ball weight =240Kg = 2516kg 
I to need an expert.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Same make van, different model, but uneasy about those figures. Every document I have read has said tow ball weight should be between 8-10% of the ATM. Yours is correct, but mine is way too light. I have rung up the agents, and the reply was not to worry.
I'm interested in what others have to say about those weights, its 25ft long and to be towed by a BT50. Both have ESC brake system, but I don't want worn out brakes and high fuel consumption. Also how did they come up with a max ball loading of 200 kg, when the brochure states 240 or 220 ball weight? (depending on model).
-- Edited by iana on Saturday 30th of January 2016 11:29:49 PM
Ian,
I seem to remember your van is from Jayco.
They come up with the weights as follows. The Maximum Ball weight they now quote has only been done for the past few years.
so, Jayco weights are done by weighing each individual van as it comes off of the assembly line with the accessories they fit in the factory, not any that are dealer added later. It is wise to get everything done in the factory to ensure that accessories don't come off of the weight allowance after being fitted by the dealer.
So, Jayco weigh your van in total, and get your Tare. They then weigh the ball weight to get your Empty Ball Weight. This varies from van to van due to the way things are added to the van during build. Then using your Tare figure, they add a Load Allowance off 475 kg for a tandem shower van, to get your ATM. Then they take the Ball Weight from that to get the GTM, of weight on the wheels. Finally they add 10% of the load allowance to your empty ball weight to get a calculated maximum ball weight.
So with your van, Tare was 2785, add 475 gives an ATM of 3260, less empty ball weight of 153 gives a GTM of 3103. Add 10% of 475 (47 kg) to 153, and you get your calculate maximum ball weight of 200 kg.
So, having said that, as you say we are all guided to have 8 - 12 % (or thereabouts) ball weight when loaded, and we now see that this is not the figure being quoted by the maker. I suggest that you read a copy of the latest Caravan World magazine, as this 10% figure is one of the myths that they suggest does not apply so much now, and we should not be fixated on this, but should just see how the set up tows when loaded. They base their comments on the fact that the Euro vans, and Euro style vans, that we now see have much lower ball weights compared to their Tare/ATM.
I am not trying to justify what they do, just answer you questions why it has happened compared to the brochure figures.
As for your van Jim, I would suggest using my information, your Empty Ball weight (the only one the factory can actually measure) is the one you need to add to figures to get the figures shown on your compliance plate. Do not use the maximum ball weight as that is a calculated, not actual figure, and a guide only. Once again, the ball weight varies from the brochure due to the way your van is built, and additional items fitted at time of build and their position on the van.
Hope this at least helps clarify in your mind why your plates say what they do.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 31st of January 2016 08:57:48 AM
Ian,
As an addendum to my answer, our van had a compliance Tare of 2153 kg, an ATM of 2628 kg, with an Empty Ball of 187 kg ( 8.7% of Tare), and a Max Ball weight of 234 kg (8.9% of ATM). I then had load upgraded from 475 kg to 600 kg, which moved ATM to 2753 kg and Max ball weight to 247 kg (adding 13 kg or 10% of the additional 125 kg load), and thus a loaded Ball weight of 8.97%.
I have found that the van tows fine at this level, and I suggest you will find the same.
PS Jim and Ian, I have never weighed the van full to see if I load to the ball or GTM. I do know we load below ATM as I have weighed everything before we travelled and come up with a load figure of 410 kg without water but everything else (including kitchen sink!) on board. When we travel with water I load 140 litres of water or thereabouts, lifting load to 550 kg. If the ball is a little high, the car (2006 100 series Cruiser "Pov" Pack) can carry it, and I do not consider the extra weight that may be on the ball (possibly up to 275 - 300 kg in total) is detrimental to the car, its handling (as I have helper "Air Bags " so I can adjust suspension), or the integrity of the vans construction.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 31st of January 2016 08:59:22 AM
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Sunday 31st of January 2016 08:59:54 AM
This information now explains why we are seeing very light looking vans coming out from Europe, some very long and only single axle. I can remember reading that they also use hitches that are braked to help reduce sway, and of course the development of the ESC system's (which is fitted to our van), would be a direct result of this.
The article I read which I saved a copy of if anyone is interested, said that there is no evidence that excessive ball weight stops sway (10-15%), but went on to say that its the "pendulum" effect that causes the sway due to weights being positioned at the extremities of the vehicle. If all the heavy weights are positioned over the axles, then the tendency to sway is reduced. This includes positioning water tanks close each side of the axles, but not to have both or all the water tanks mounted forward of the axles. Guess how they have mounted mine.
I couldn't find any Australian rule that says the tow ball weight should be 10% of the van weight, and with our van those figures come out to 5.5%. And yes my van is a little different, having the club lounge at the front removed, and if as what you say weighed empty. I suppose the fridge was also not installed as I got an inverter fridge. Now with the recliner chairs installed and the fridge installed, water now in the tanks (forward) the ball weight will have gone up. however that stupid figure of 200kg max ball load is probably going to be reached before we even put anything inside the van.
The salesman did ask if I wanted the load capacity of the van increased, and as I said its the CVM that's the important factor, and I didn't want to further increase my towing load, I said no. He did not mention that the max ball weight would be calculated as 10% of the allowable load added onto the empty ball weight and stamped on the compliance plate. In my opinion this figure should not be entered, as maximum ball weight should be what is stamped on the towbar, in my case 350KG and also be a factor of the load ratings of the hitch.
I guess the weights and measure boys (and girls) will be concentrating on CMV and ATM rather than max ball weights stamped on the van compliance plate.
Hi Ian & Ian, = The Twins
Well I'm pulling the Jayco Journey Outback 17.55-3 with the double bed at the front, with our 200 GX Cruiser with 350kg max ball weight ( air bags fitted). The tow truck and the van both have ESC fitted.
I have brought a wire luggage car basket (on sale from Repco $75 just before Xmas) to mount on the Aframe. fits like a glove to carry our firewood collected each day as we go along. So most of the time it will be empty. Haven't weighed the basket yet but would weigh about 15kg at a guess. So at days end, for a few hours with a load of F/W I will be over on the ball, out in the Never Never.
The Twins
, we had fitted on the assembly line a 82lt grey water tank mounted at the rear. The van comes with 2x 82 water tanks as standard. On ours they fitted a larger tank in front, of the front axle and a smaller tank 75lt forward of this one. So I will pump from the smaller tank first to keep the weight in check.
By the time I load bulky items in the front boot, along with the standard 2 x 9kg gas bottles, I would think the ball weight will be up to 250kg The second spare fits under the floor of the truck now.
I have brought a Repco tow ball weight measuring post. There not heavy, $49 on sale. (Love sales) I have not used it yet, but intend to carry it as insurance. If we ever get pulled up and want to go on with it, I will pull out our device and ask for leniency on this occasion.
Other wise Trying to do the right thing, Your Honour with our instrument. What do you think.
Regards Jim
The 'traditional' 10% figure was only ever an approximate for dumb cnuts to make the maths easy, shift the decimal point one place to the left and thats close enough.
It also is meant to be applied to single axel not tandem axel.
Manufacturers are now quoting maximum ball weight because of the proliferation of van owners who after-market go loading up either the rear bumper or the drawbar with lots of weighty objects like additional batteries, generators and tool boxes and the like, and then the framing is stressed beyond its safe working loads when you start driving on wavey sea-saw roads.
Hey Jim!! did you get a remote breakaway battery monitor with your van?, if you did be careful, I tried my unit today, plugged it into a cigarette lighter socket of the tug, and the cheap and nasty plug flew too bits in the socket and shorted out the supply with the loose bits. Examining the plug, there is no way the threads will hold against the nut, that contains the guts of the unit. Check it out and perhaps replace the plug with a better quality one.
I certainly agree that the van should be manufactured to allow the ball weight to be up to the tow bar/vehicle max. This would then remove a lot of issues re loading, as long as the vehicle handles how the driver wants.
Certainly, with your issue when the tanks are full, it would be worth talking to your dealer re changing the compliance plate max ball weight. I don't know that Jayco will go to the 350 kg of your vehicle, but I have seen on the Jayco forum where they have gone as far as 300 kg I believe.
Good luck with your contact with them.
Jim, all you can do is try and do the right thing with the weight, and set the vehicle up to be happy with yourself, particularly if you are remote a lot of the time.
You sure about your statement ref single axles,,,, what about load sharing tandems????
In my experience it has applied to all.
Hi Ian,
Oh deary me, What did you measure that with.
260kg.
Yes we have the breakaway system fitted as well. Are they standard issue on this unit???? Thanks for the warning. I Most certainly will check this one out ASPS.
Did they supply a Reversing camera on your van and a safe box as well. Ours did. Not listed as a standard nor did we order either.
nor pay for same. Makes me think they got orders mixed up some what.
What's on the van stays on the van.
i do after a lot of reading agree with The Heaths about vehicle ball waits as to much over this could maybe damage your
chassis. Any way i am still learning about ball waits, did not have a problem with loading and weights over last 45 years as a truckie
doing all sorts of loads from general and livestock ect.
I have read this stuff if it is any help.
caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/
Good luck Ge from Perth
Are you sure? 10.00% according to your statement would become 1.00%. That translates to a 2900kg caravan having a ball weight of 29kg. I wouldn't like to be following that much less driving it.
I think only a dumb cnut would promote this.
The breakaway monitor is a black box supplied with the breakaway unit that allows the driver to see at a glance the state of the breakaway battery. This is to comply with new regulations in NSW. It was supplied with my van. It powers up from a cigarette lighter aux socket.
Yes to the camera, looks at the ground behind the van. Yes to the security box. Re the camera, I have fitted another camera to the tug on the chassis that allows me to see the ball when coupling, and as I have a canopy, gives me rear vision when not coupled to the van. Nothing that a pair of side cutters and a soldering iron can't do.
To Ge, I wanted a fifth wheeler, but cost and the manufacturers' reluctance to come down to my spec's stopped that. These problems are minor when towing those. I don't understand why there isn't more of a push to bring 5th wheelers into the market now we have all these good towing utes. They would be much safer.
Just an up-date, I went and saw the Jayco agency where I brought the van, A salesman asked if he could help, and I told him about the problem, he said my scales were wrong. I then asked him to have a look at other vans of the same model but with the club lounge and he refused.
I went and had a talk with the service dept., and at that time I was a little hot under the collar, the guy behind the counter said that's the way it weighed at the time, No I couldn't get the GVM increased now its left the factory, and if I write them a letter, they will pass it onto Jayco to see if they will increase the maximum ball weight.
What I am finding so frustrating is that they don't even have to put these figures on the compliance plate. And one day I am going to have to try and explain to some prospective buyer, that these figures mean nothing.
-- Edited by iana on Monday 1st of February 2016 08:42:43 PM
Read this article
http://www.lets-getaway.com/caravan-complianceplates.htm
The ball weight of the van "nude" (actually I left the TV in place, drat! was 164kg so a discrepancy of 11kg. (153kg on compliance plate.)
I filled the water tank nearest the axles (forward of ) 189kg
Re installed the gas cylinders. 211kg. Reached the maximum ball weight!
Installed the chairs and fire extinguisher (extinguisher not supplied with van) 231kg.
Filled the front water tank. 260kg
No clothing, food or equipment in the boot yet.
Hi Ian,
I hope we are not in for the same. My wife likes to travel with plenty of spares
. I might have to do a cull.
I sent you a PM as a solution.
Dose your van have 100mm or 125mm Aframe Ian.
When we are showing friends the van, with four standing inside at the rear the van doesn't flinch, (with out the supports down and unhitched.)
Jim
From my figures it is quite clear that Jayco weighed the vehicle without any seating in place. The difference in my figures to theirs of 11kg is that I left the jockey wheel on (in case something slipped) and I had left the TV mounted.
I will write to Jayco and ask them to amend or just leave blank the "Max Ball loading", as you asked I have the 125mm draw bar, and a 3500kg tow bar fitted to the ute. Because they have fitted a "Grey" water tank to the rear tank position, both water tanks are forward of the axles, with No2 mounted way too far forward making it useless, i.e. putting the ball weight up at 260kg before we have even put food and belongings into the van.
It appears to me that some chopping and changing needs to occur, with the grey water tank being positioned longitudinally between the wishbones on the suspension, and the second water tank positioned back where it should be.
We are now regretting buying the outback model, as that makes the unit higher and heavier. The only reason we choose that model was that the tire sizes were the same as the ute.
Luckily we've done something right in buying the extra cab ute with tray back and have put a Boston canopy on it. Articles I am reading say to have the tug as heavy as possible in relation to the van. We will have to do this because we can't carry much in the van.
Its easy to see why Jayco have fitted ESC stability control to their vans.
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 08:39:33 AM
Hi Ian, I'm in the same position as you. With the second tank way to far forward. when I get a break from working around the clock trying to sign off from full time to part time, I will have a good hard look to see IF I can place the 75lt water tank behind the rear wheels. There's plenty of hanging mounts in place, so with the head screwed on and measuring six times it may work.
I pitty folks who can't or are unable to do the fixers that need fixing.
Jayco couldn't give a toss where they end up placing bits below floor level. If they took the time to do it right first go they would have a lot more happy customers.
Ian If your van jack is mounted in the same position as ours,(Smack in the middle of the boot.) I would mount it towards the rear. Its another 2kg moved.
Im also thinking that Jayco may have filled the grey tank to get your ball weight down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Food for thought.
Try the ball weight with it filled and lets us know the out come.
Jim
I didn't double check and stupidly thought all the floor joists spacings were the same and I could just move the tank to a new location. Hell of a lot of work putting it all back where it came from.
The saga continues, the suspension people took another look at the figures and now want to do a GVM upgrade on the vehicle. My CVM and ute GVM are sailing too close to the wind. Good bye to another $3000.
I have already sussed out that the frame work under the floor is strategically placed for the water tanks. But for construction, not weight and balance. The grey water tank is the cause of the problem there, causing both water tanks to be mounted forward of the axle.
When I went in to buy the van, the salesman started by asking what vehicle I had. Told him 3.2 BT50 and he said I would romp in choose any van in the lot. Hmmmmm.
-- Edited by iana on Wednesday 3rd of February 2016 05:19:14 PM
Hi Ian,
I got on the garage creeper late this afternoon. My front water tank is only a 75lt job not the stated 82lt from Jayco. The way they have set up the plumbing I have bucklies of filling the tank completely first off.
The tank is 360mm wide and will be a simple exercise to move it back into the next set of cross members. the holes for the tank strapes are already there. the water tubing need only to be shortened by the same amount. the wiring disconnects via male & female to be rerouted. this will move this tank back by 400mm. Maths wise the tank and gal sheet under 75lt =75kg+ tank 10kg = 85kg back by 400mm = how much off the ballweight???????????????? better then non at all. I will retest when completed. I may gain 20kg at best.
Why Jayco couldn't have done this so begger's belief.
The only way I can see around the frame work would be a costly custom S/Steel flat tank (1200mm Lx 350mm W x 150mm) behind the axle group and about 60lts at most
.
Jayco are not serious about their engineering only cost savings on the assembly line.
The bed end starts in front of the front axle so putting lots of stuff under the bed, will have to be housed in the foot end only to keep things in check.
CULL.
I'm lucky I only sleep in my Jocks.
I'm even moving the tap on the Aframe back under the van. That's where I wanted it in the first place. 40grams.
I'll get there yet.
Jim
hey Jim, I hope you checked out those cross members properly, on my van some of the cross members are rotated 180 degrees, so you can't fit the tank in that space.