I have a Toyota Avalon 2002 sedan towing a 13 foot Windsor pop top. Caravan Tare Weight is 840kg. The Tow Ball weight is between 160kg to 170kg.
My towbar reads 120kg on tow ball with load levelling devise.
I towed van to South Australia recently with no problems, towed beautifully. I have 4 stabelliser bars ( the old shepard hooks. ) on.
I also put heavier springs on the car for level towing.
My question is should I buy heavier duty tow bar (for my car only goes to 160kg) or is my set up safe.
Thanking you.
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:47 PM Jan 28, 2016
You are clearly overloading your tow bar capacity, so it can not be considered 'safe'.
The limit may be the tow bar itself, or it may be the body work that it is attached to.
Perhaps investigate moving weight from the front to a position closer to the axle.
Cheers,
Peter
Hylife said
09:35 PM Jan 28, 2016
Suggest you re-distribute the contents of your poptop.
In general the towbar weight should be approx 10% of the van weight.
Assuming your poptop is a single axel the maximum GTM (gross trailer mass) is 300kg heavier than the tare.
With a tare of 840 the max GTM would be 1140kg (check the compliance plate) with aprox 110kg towball weight.
Not only are you exceeding the safe limits of the towbar but you will have a very unstable van and in the event of an accident you will have ZERO insurance coverage.
With such a light van you shouldn't need load distribution devices at all.
The Avalon (same as Camry) has a 1200kg limit with a 120kg towball limit.
We use a 12/2007 Camry to tow a 1996 16' single axel Jayco poptop (tare 1080) with nothing but our clothes (20kg) and a tank of water (80kg) and some meat and milk in the fridge and we 'just' come in at 1200kg on a weigh bridge.
We have approx 120kg ball weight and the GVM (gross vehicle mass) with two persons still allows for another 500kg in the cars boot for all those extras without breaking any laws or jeopardising safety or insurance.
PeterD said
10:46 PM Jan 28, 2016
Hylife wrote:snip,
With such a light van you shouldn't need load distribution devices at all.
The Avalon (same as Camry) has a 1200kg limit with a 120kg towball limit.
snip
It's only the 2.4/2.5 l Camry that has a 1200/120 kg limit. The3.0 l model has a limit of 1600/160 kg. The Avalon is a 3/0 l engine.
Whether WDH is need o not is not just on the weight of the van alone. It has a lot to do with the ratio of the vans weight to the tugs capacity. It also depends upon whether the tug is FWD or RWD. It also depends upon whether the manufacturer specifies WDH be used or not. In the case of this van, the potential of an ATM of 1140kg the loaded weight of the van is more than 50% of the towing capacity, the vehicle is FWD and Toyota state "load level hitch required." So we have 3 strikes that suggest that WDH is required.
Also I suggest the shepherds crook bars are not sufficient for they ball weight of this van. I go along with Tom Olthoff's recommendation that these bars are only good for ball weights up to 90 kg. I feel that the heavier HR or Eaz-Lift bars would be a bit too heavy. You can possibly get away with the Camec Weight Distribution Kit - 4 Bar kit. I too think the tow bar should be replaced as well.
Lee4 said
04:29 PM Jan 29, 2016
Here I was thinking 6 cylinder car would tow small van easy. I thought tow ball weight was 10% of van too, but mine has to be heavy.
Thank you all for your advise & will now think which way I will go.
I love my car & van & suits me a single lady who just wants to see Australia. But maybe have to get different car or van.
Radar said
07:51 PM Jan 29, 2016
I hope this lady is not going out to buy another car on this advice that is on this page.
Maybe the only thing is she need to do carefully move a bit of weight about and check her tow ball weight again.
As for replacing the shepherd hooks to expensive other brand bars, come on forget about your shares in the company.
Please lady recheck your towball weight first and then move some weight back if you need to carefully off the towball.
Try centrally placing heavier weighted items over or close to above the axle or 1 metre the caravan axle.
Try not to put to much in your boot of the car to be sure.
Hylife said
12:03 AM Jan 30, 2016
Toyota list the 2002 3 L V6 Avalon as having only a 900kg max trailer weight until the 2006 model when it went up to 1600kg braked.
Perhaps I mis-read the OPs statement "My towbar reads 120kg ...".
Is the OP saying that the towbar has a maximum rating on its label of 120kg (the standard OEM genuine Toyota tow bar is only 1200kg & 120kg) or is the OP saying that he/she estimates that the load levelling devices have reduced the towball load to 120kg.
Regardless of how heavy the van is or what weight the car is towing/can tow, the real problem here is there is just way too much weight on the tow bar because of the tow bar rating and because of the van weight.
Re-distribute/lessen the load.
PeterD said
11:43 AM Jan 30, 2016
Hylife wrote:
1.. Toyota list the 2002 3 L V6 Avalon as having only a 900kg max trailer weight until the 2006 model when it went up to 1600kg braked.
2.. Perhaps I mis-read the OPs statement "My towbar reads 120kg ...".
Is the OP saying that the towbar has a maximum rating on its label of 120kg (the standard OEM genuine Toyota tow bar is only 1200kg & 120kg) or is the OP saying that he/she estimates that the load levelling devices have reduced the towball load to 120kg.
3.. Regardless of how heavy the van is or what weight the car is towing/can tow, the real problem here is there is just way too much weight on the tow bar because of the tow bar rating and because of the van weight.
Re-distribute/lessen the load.
1.. My 2004 copy of the industry towing mass guide shows the then current Avalon as having a 1600/160 towing capacity. The Camrys up to 2002 have an 1100 kg capacity. The 2002 2.4 l has a 1200/120 kg capacity and the 3.0l has a 1600/160 kg limit.
2.. The full quote is "My towbar reads 120kg on tow ball with load levelling devise." That last bit is important. The Avalon is FWD (front wheel drive.) When you hitch a van you lift the front end of the vehicle, or in other words reduce the weight on the front wheels. FWD vehicles rely on the front wheels for traction as well as braking. That makes it doubly important to use WDH (also called load levelling device) to restore that tractive ability of the front wheels. This is extremely important when you are climbing a hill in the wet weather. What that compliance plate that the OP is reading says is that you are allowed up to 120 kg of ball weight with WDH. Toyota recommended WDH be used on most of their vehicles back in those days. Some specifications also give a ball weight minimum which when exceeded WDH must be used. In the case of the Avalon it simply states "load levelling hitch req"
3.. Agreed, the vehicle is quite capable of towing the van. The problem is the interface between the tug and van is not up to scratch. The tow bar requires replacing. Beverley, if you replace the tow bar with a properly rated one you will enjoy many years of travelling with your current rig. Changing it and your WDH will be cheaper than changing either vehicle or even the loss you take if you simply just sell the van.
Regarding the shepherds crook bars - Way back there was a bloke called Tom Olthoff who was the technical editor of Caravan World magazine. Many believe he got the flick because the advertisers did not like him publishing the truth about several things. He was very experienced in setting up rigs. He established that the shepherds crook bars were only sufficient on ball weights up to about 90 kg and not the 125 kg that the manufacturers claimed. I don't know why people still get sucked into using these. The Hayman Reese intermediate bars that Camec market as the Camec Weight Distribution Kit - 4 Bar kit retail for $148 where as the others retail at $171. In addition the HR bars are easier to put on each time by virtue of the snap up brackets. Beverly, I would prefer to see you swap the crap bars for the better ones, you will be caught on an uphill gradient in the wet sometime during your travels.
-- Edited by PeterD on Saturday 30th of January 2016 11:44:34 AM
Hylife said
12:45 PM Jan 31, 2016
I wonder how the law might view the use of a weight distribution device versus the actual ball weight. I can't seem to find anything on that. I think you might still get booked inmany circumstances.
If your average Plod pulls you over for weighing, the normal process of getting you to drive over the platform scales and then to disconnect from your tow ball and have the platform scale under the draw bar jockey wheel.
Without the distribution device the draw bar weight will perhaps exceed the tow bars permitted maximum weight or the cars permitted maximum.
How do you argue that when the Plod can't determine how much leveling is being provided by the distribution device and can only work with the static weights being shown on his scales?
Radar said
02:24 PM Jan 31, 2016
Hylife wrote:
I wonder how the law might view the use of a weight distribution device versus the actual ball weight. I can't seem to find anything on that. I think you might still get booked inmany circumstances.
If your average Plod pulls you over for weighing, the normal process of getting you to drive over the platform scales and then to disconnect from your tow ball and have the platform scale under the draw bar jockey wheel.
Without the distribution device the draw bar weight will perhaps exceed the tow bars permitted maximum weight or the cars permitted maximum.
How do you argue that when the Plod can't determine how much leveling is being provided by the distribution device and can only work with the static weights being shown on his scales?
I was not going to get involved in this discussion any more but read Hylife thoughts which I would disagree with.
The Officials I believe can not ask you to separate your vehicle to weigh it.
He will look at the gross of the 2 vehicles first.
Now if he thinks the rear axle of the tow vehicle could be over weight he will then weigh it only with it all connected as they found it.
My thinking is this I am driving my large articulated truck and trailer they only weigh independent axle grouping, eg steer, drive axle, trailer axle group.
Never in 43 years been ask to separate the prime mover from the trailer when being weighed.
But I would agree if they found a combination over weight they would ground it real fast including the tow vehicle until you could prove part or both were safe to move.
In the ladys case 3 out of 4 areas appear reasonable but with a small amount the 4th will be rectified. The towball issue.
Lee4 said
09:09 AM Feb 1, 2016
Thank you for all your advise. I am a little overwhelmed with all the facts.
I have loaded van with most over axle to get 160 kg tow ball weight, including filling water tank which is in back. Before this tow ball weight was 200kg.
It seems I can get a tow bar with 160kg towing. I will look into this further.
As said Toyota is capable to tow van.
Thanks again
PeterD said
09:48 AM Feb 2, 2016
Radar wrote:Never in 43 years been ask to separate the prime mover from the trailer when being weighed.
There is no point in separating a semi-trailer. As you say they are only interested in axle weights. There is no ball weight specification involved like there is with caravans. There is no history of regulator weighing of caravans. There are no reliable reports of large campaigns targeting vans. These are are possibly a thing of the future.
Hang around and see what happens when and if the campaigns commence.
-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 2nd of February 2016 09:49:54 AM
Lee4 said
03:09 PM Feb 9, 2016
To get weight off the towbar I am wondering if i take caravan annex out this will help.
I only use the awning so feel a waste carting annex around. The annex is under the bed behind the axle.
Or is it taking weight off the tow ball ?
PeterD said
07:56 PM Feb 9, 2016
Lee, if you remove weight from the van that is behind the axle you will add weight to the ball.
I have a Toyota Avalon 2002 sedan towing a 13 foot Windsor pop top. Caravan Tare Weight is 840kg. The Tow Ball weight is between 160kg to 170kg.
My towbar reads 120kg on tow ball with load levelling devise.
I towed van to South Australia recently with no problems, towed beautifully. I have 4 stabelliser bars ( the old shepard hooks. ) on.
I also put heavier springs on the car for level towing.
My question is should I buy heavier duty tow bar (for my car only goes to 160kg) or is my set up safe.
Thanking you.
The limit may be the tow bar itself, or it may be the body work that it is attached to.
Perhaps investigate moving weight from the front to a position closer to the axle.
Cheers,
Peter
Suggest you re-distribute the contents of your poptop.
In general the towbar weight should be approx 10% of the van weight.
Assuming your poptop is a single axel the maximum GTM (gross trailer mass) is 300kg heavier than the tare.
With a tare of 840 the max GTM would be 1140kg (check the compliance plate) with aprox 110kg towball weight.
Not only are you exceeding the safe limits of the towbar but you will have a very unstable van and in the event of an accident you will have ZERO insurance coverage.
With such a light van you shouldn't need load distribution devices at all.
The Avalon (same as Camry) has a 1200kg limit with a 120kg towball limit.
We use a 12/2007 Camry to tow a 1996 16' single axel Jayco poptop (tare 1080) with nothing but our clothes (20kg) and a tank of water (80kg) and some meat and milk in the fridge and we 'just' come in at 1200kg on a weigh bridge.
We have approx 120kg ball weight and the GVM (gross vehicle mass) with two persons still allows for another 500kg in the cars boot for all those extras without breaking any laws or jeopardising safety or insurance.
It's only the 2.4/2.5 l Camry that has a 1200/120 kg limit. The3.0 l model has a limit of 1600/160 kg. The Avalon is a 3/0 l engine.
Whether WDH is need o not is not just on the weight of the van alone. It has a lot to do with the ratio of the vans weight to the tugs capacity. It also depends upon whether the tug is FWD or RWD. It also depends upon whether the manufacturer specifies WDH be used or not. In the case of this van, the potential of an ATM of 1140kg the loaded weight of the van is more than 50% of the towing capacity, the vehicle is FWD and Toyota state "load level hitch required." So we have 3 strikes that suggest that WDH is required.
Also I suggest the shepherds crook bars are not sufficient for they ball weight of this van. I go along with Tom Olthoff's recommendation that these bars are only good for ball weights up to 90 kg. I feel that the heavier HR or Eaz-Lift bars would be a bit too heavy. You can possibly get away with the Camec Weight Distribution Kit - 4 Bar kit. I too think the tow bar should be replaced as well.
Thank you all for your advise & will now think which way I will go.
I love my car & van & suits me a single lady who just wants to see Australia. But maybe have to get different car or van.
I hope this lady is not going out to buy another car on this advice that is on this page.
Maybe the only thing is she need to do carefully move a bit of weight about and check her tow ball weight again.
As for replacing the shepherd hooks to expensive other brand bars, come on forget about your shares in the company.
Please lady recheck your towball weight first and then move some weight back if you need to carefully off the towball.
Try centrally placing heavier weighted items over or close to above the axle or 1 metre the caravan axle.
Try not to put to much in your boot of the car to be sure.
Toyota list the 2002 3 L V6 Avalon as having only a 900kg max trailer weight until the 2006 model when it went up to 1600kg braked.
Perhaps I mis-read the OPs statement "My towbar reads 120kg ...".
Is the OP saying that the towbar has a maximum rating on its label of 120kg (the standard OEM genuine Toyota tow bar is only 1200kg & 120kg) or is the OP saying that he/she estimates that the load levelling devices have reduced the towball load to 120kg.
Regardless of how heavy the van is or what weight the car is towing/can tow, the real problem here is there is just way too much weight on the tow bar because of the tow bar rating and because of the van weight.
Re-distribute/lessen the load.
1.. My 2004 copy of the industry towing mass guide shows the then current Avalon as having a 1600/160 towing capacity. The Camrys up to 2002 have an 1100 kg capacity. The 2002 2.4 l has a 1200/120 kg capacity and the 3.0l has a 1600/160 kg limit.
2.. The full quote is "My towbar reads 120kg on tow ball with load levelling devise." That last bit is important. The Avalon is FWD (front wheel drive.) When you hitch a van you lift the front end of the vehicle, or in other words reduce the weight on the front wheels. FWD vehicles rely on the front wheels for traction as well as braking. That makes it doubly important to use WDH (also called load levelling device) to restore that tractive ability of the front wheels. This is extremely important when you are climbing a hill in the wet weather. What that compliance plate that the OP is reading says is that you are allowed up to 120 kg of ball weight with WDH. Toyota recommended WDH be used on most of their vehicles back in those days. Some specifications also give a ball weight minimum which when exceeded WDH must be used. In the case of the Avalon it simply states "load levelling hitch req"
3.. Agreed, the vehicle is quite capable of towing the van. The problem is the interface between the tug and van is not up to scratch. The tow bar requires replacing. Beverley, if you replace the tow bar with a properly rated one you will enjoy many years of travelling with your current rig. Changing it and your WDH will be cheaper than changing either vehicle or even the loss you take if you simply just sell the van.
Regarding the shepherds crook bars - Way back there was a bloke called Tom Olthoff who was the technical editor of Caravan World magazine. Many believe he got the flick because the advertisers did not like him publishing the truth about several things. He was very experienced in setting up rigs. He established that the shepherds crook bars were only sufficient on ball weights up to about 90 kg and not the 125 kg that the manufacturers claimed. I don't know why people still get sucked into using these. The Hayman Reese intermediate bars that Camec market as the Camec Weight Distribution Kit - 4 Bar kit retail for $148 where as the others retail at $171. In addition the HR bars are easier to put on each time by virtue of the snap up brackets. Beverly, I would prefer to see you swap the crap bars for the better ones, you will be caught on an uphill gradient in the wet sometime during your travels.
-- Edited by PeterD on Saturday 30th of January 2016 11:44:34 AM
I wonder how the law might view the use of a weight distribution device versus the actual ball weight. I can't seem to find anything on that. I think you might still get booked inmany circumstances.
If your average Plod pulls you over for weighing, the normal process of getting you to drive over the platform scales and then to disconnect from your tow ball and have the platform scale under the draw bar jockey wheel.
Without the distribution device the draw bar weight will perhaps exceed the tow bars permitted maximum weight or the cars permitted maximum.
How do you argue that when the Plod can't determine how much leveling is being provided by the distribution device and can only work with the static weights being shown on his scales?
I was not going to get involved in this discussion any more but read Hylife thoughts which I would disagree with.
The Officials I believe can not ask you to separate your vehicle to weigh it.
He will look at the gross of the 2 vehicles first.
Now if he thinks the rear axle of the tow vehicle could be over weight he will then weigh it only with it all connected as they found it.
My thinking is this I am driving my large articulated truck and trailer they only weigh independent axle grouping, eg steer, drive axle, trailer axle group.
Never in 43 years been ask to separate the prime mover from the trailer when being weighed.
But I would agree if they found a combination over weight they would ground it real fast including the tow vehicle until you could prove part or both were safe to move.
In the ladys case 3 out of 4 areas appear reasonable but with a small amount the 4th will be rectified. The towball issue.
I have loaded van with most over axle to get 160 kg tow ball weight, including filling water tank which is in back. Before this tow ball weight was 200kg.
It seems I can get a tow bar with 160kg towing. I will look into this further.
As said Toyota is capable to tow van.
Thanks again
There is no point in separating a semi-trailer. As you say they are only interested in axle weights. There is no ball weight specification involved like there is with caravans. There is no history of regulator weighing of caravans. There are no reliable reports of large campaigns targeting vans. These are are possibly a thing of the future.
Hang around and see what happens when and if the campaigns commence.
-- Edited by PeterD on Tuesday 2nd of February 2016 09:49:54 AM
To get weight off the towbar I am wondering if i take caravan annex out this will help.
I only use the awning so feel a waste carting annex around. The annex is under the bed behind the axle.
Or is it taking weight off the tow ball ?