Motorhome LPG compliance is a poker-machine like gamble.
sheeds said
04:36 PM Oct 22, 2015
Enforcement of - and prosecutions for - LPG Installation non-compliances in the Australia-wide RV Industry is virtually non-existent. My brief visit to the Sandown Racecourse Motorhome Show in Melbourne on Sunday 11 October convinced me of this fact.
So many RV builders spruik and spout in their advertising brochures that they have 40+ years experience in building RVs.This is nothing but misleading and deceptive advertising being used to give the impression they must know what theyre doing and doing it well if theyve been doing it for so long. To me it doesnt show. Obviously,even 10 years ago AS5601-2004 was not read thoroughly enough!
AS5601-2004 was a very comprehensive standard. There were no major deletions,amendments,additions or alterations in both AS5601-2010 or AS5601-2013. The only difference with 2010 & 2013 was the separate summary for caravans and boats. (A similar brief summary of AS5601-2004 for caravans and mobile homes was published in April 2004 by Victorias then GasSafe Authority.)
Lets look at a few AS5601-2004 non-compliances.(NB: I did not have time to inspect Avida Motorhomes or the imported American Winnebago Motorhomes).
(A)LPG cylinder compartments(page refs.& clause numbers given where I had them available).
AS5601-2004 covered compartment ventilation very thoroughly.
1/cylinders must be installed where air movement across,through, down between,around etc.is provided. Ref:p229 J3.1 (d). Locations not providing such airflow are prohibited.
2/Any enclosure a LPG cylinder compartment containing a regulator must have ventilation and drainage. Ref: p62 4.15,clauses 4.15.1.1 and 1.2 Two(2)openings shall be provided directly to outside. Size of airvent calculation is shown: allow 7cm2 per m3 of the internal volume of the compartment.
The best and only option in my view is to have an airvent near the top of the compartment door and a tubular drain in the rear bottom corner with a champfered end facing away from the forward direction of travel.(This shape provides the best outward suction according to aerodynamic information.)
What do we see?
(*) no airvents in doors or bottom drains in LPG compartments, with exception of Jayco which had no door airvents but two(2) L-shaped plastic pipe drains about 25mm wide diameter at either end of the compartment base, one assumes one drain for each cylinder!
NB: AS5601-2-2013 page 32 (f) and fig.3.4 is wrong displaying the two air ventilation options. One shows the LPG cylinder compartment with the bottom drain only but no door airvent! This is inadequate venting.
Air must be sucked through the compartment. (I argue that no consideration whatsoever should be given to adventitious gaps around the door edges if they do not seal properly.That is such a very weak unprofessional excuse for poor design and door construction.)
The door option with two airvents but no bottom drain is also very unsatisfactory. Airflow - and wind turbulence will force/suck in air through both airvents by the venturi effect and hold it there.
(NB: compare with those air ingress stoppers on caravans to prevent dust entering. All windows and any other openings are closed when travelling through dusty areas. Open the stopper vent (I call it),the van fills with air during travel but nothing else comes in - especially dust - because it is full of air stopping ingress!)
I also strongly recommend Gas Authorities adopt OH&S precautions with lift up doors. I believe signs warning of collision risk must be affixed to both sides of these door types. Also an additional warning must be included stating the door must be closed when appliances are in use.
(B)Main piping run from LPG cylinder compartment to be outside the Motorhome! (AS5601-2004 p 108/109 clause 6.2.5...)
Too many main LPG runs are out of sight,concealed and inaccessible in sub-floor voids. Australia-wide LPG Authorities must review their own interpretations for these concealed piping runs because being so concealed this raises the need for a fire rating and the installation of adequately sized airvents at either end of the sub-floor enclosure. I argue strongly that adventitious gaps and openings throughout the structure must NOT be considered at all.
(NB: Avan RVs sub-floor inaccessible void containing the whole LPG piping system including the vertical branches off it to appliance connection points needs a full review. In one Avan model the pipe runs under the bed over a metre in length across and touching a 240V pp to behind the refrigerator where it runs next to and almost touches the flame chamber with no heat shield! The refrigerator is installed over a rear wheel so the vibration affects the pipe flexibility and it could touch the chamber which is only 2mm away! Now, surely, nobody can possibly regard this as good practice because no other RV builder does it!
(C)Upper and Lower LPG ventilation.
AS5601-2004, nor any Standard thereafter gives any consideration to the amount of permanent air supply entering through skylights. Why not?
It is though a very common recognised good/best practice to install the lower LPG airvent in the bottom of the entrance door or in the first step riser. It is so common it really must be worded in the next Standard.
Again the better option is the bottom of the entrance door, but the best option in my opinion is the rear wall of the entrance stairwell with a tapered/champfered vent on the outside to draw air out. Lower airvents provide dual purposeventilation: air for human habitation but also an outlet - at the lowest point in the RV for LPG leakage dispersal.
Airvents in the first step riser can have a detrimental effect in that contaminated polluted air- including road grime and dust etc. - can be sucked in by the venturi effect because the opening is parallel to the airflow when travelling. This effect is worse in Avan Motorhomes because the engine exhaust and diesel heater exhausts if installed -are in front of the opening causing polluted contaminated air to be sucked in.
NB: It is the full responsibility of the licensed person who carried out the LPG installation to ensure that the lower LPG airvent cannot be contaminated in any way whatsoever with polluted air, especially from engine exhaust fumes.
A full review by Australia-wide LPG Authorities is immediately required to fully and comprehensively re-examine Avans two(2)lower airvent installation options: one in the first step riser and the other through a vertical shaft built through the floor exiting under the vehicle into a large metal box with one open end covered in undersized wiremesh! The open end is at right angles to the airflow opposite to the venturis parallel effect -so polluted contaminated air of lower pressure will be forced by air of higher pressure into and up the said vertical shaft.This type of construction is a health and safety risk.
(D)HWS flues
Truma brand installation instructions clearly state not to install their unit under an openable window.If it is then warning signs must be affixed to the windows above the flue worded with:This window must be closed when the hot water boiler is in operation. These warning signs should be used for all HWS flues installed close under openable windows. Also it is safer to have a clearly visible warning sign like the red LPG storage sign affixed to the HWS. It is not enough in my view to have: Warning hot to touch embossed on the shiny metal tag on the unit.
NB: too often forgotten is the Standard requirement for HWS flues to be more than 700mm radius from a LPG cylinder valve,even within an RVs LPG cylinder compartment.
(E)Ovens
I believe all ovens should be installed on outside walls so vented combustion fumes and/or unburnt LPG can be vented to the outside air.
Action to compile and serve Rectification Notices on the RV builders responsible for these LPG Installation faults needs to be taken now.
E.& O.E
Wombat 280 said
09:14 AM Oct 23, 2015
Same applies to electrical certification Ask for a 240 volt wiring diagram and see what you get. Looking at some original installations in repair shops they must have been done by a left handed monkey, certainly not compliant with any wiring rules I've worked with
AS/NZS 3001:2001 Australian/New Zealand StandardElectrical installationsRelocatable premises (including caravans and tents) and their site installations AS/NZS
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Friday 23rd of October 2015 09:19:46 AM
dorian said
10:35 AM Oct 23, 2015
If the authorities really cared about gas and electrical safety, then they would make the standards available for free download by everyone.
woolman said
11:26 AM Oct 23, 2015
dorian wrote:
If the authorities really cared about gas and electrical safety, then they would make the standards available for free download by everyone.
Totally agree dorian. The average small business just cannot afford to pay a private company to get a copy of their relevant standards. Why the hell was the supply of Australian standards ever privatised when all that was needed them to be place on the internet.
Building standards cost about $5,000 a year to keep updated, maybe that is why very few builders comply.
You can read the standards at your local library and copy a small percentage.
Neil
-- Edited by woolman on Friday 23rd of October 2015 11:29:41 AM
brukay said
06:50 PM Oct 23, 2015
Totally agree with free access to all for Aust Standards. To restrict access to only those who canafford the exhorbitant cists of same is wrong. When the govt sold off the AS franchise to private enterprise they made a big mistake. They ruled out a very large number of scrutineers/inspecters, the owners or users of structures, installations and products.
oldtrack123 said
10:02 AM Oct 26, 2015
brukay wrote:
Totally agree with free access to all for Aust Standards. To restrict access to only those who canafford the exhorbitant cists of same is wrong. When the govt sold off the AS franchise to private enterprise they made a big mistake. They ruled out a very large number of scrutineers/inspecters, the owners or users of structures, installations and products.
Hi
The electrical standards have ALWAYS had to be bought ,ever since the first one was produced way back in the early 30s!
Cost 2s 6p from memory
Again from memory title was "SAA 1 Australian wiring rules"
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of October 2015 10:07:07 AM
03_Troopy said
10:36 AM Oct 26, 2015
oldtrack123 wrote:
brukay wrote:
Totally agree with free access to all for Aust Standards. To restrict access to only those who canafford the exhorbitant cists of same is wrong. When the govt sold off the AS franchise to private enterprise they made a big mistake. They ruled out a very large number of scrutineers/inspecters, the owners or users of structures, installations and products.
Hi
The electrical standards have ALWAYS had to be bought ,ever since the first one was produced way back in the early 30s!
Cost 2s 6p from memory
Again from memory title was "SAA 1 Australian wiring rules"
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of October 2015 10:07:07 AM
This is the last one I bought and it cost me $4.00, in a second hand bookshop in 1990.
Hi Troopy I cannot remember what I paid for that one when it came out but a lot more than$4.
I see I was wrong , when I said I thought 1934 was the first edition
It was the 2nd
I wonder what dad did with the 1931
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of October 2015 12:15:10 PM
dorian said
12:10 PM Oct 26, 2015
I paid around $100 for my copy of the SAA Wiring Rules. Not only is this an unnecessary ripoff, a PDF version would be infinitely more navigable.
oldtrack123 said
01:03 PM Oct 26, 2015
dorian wrote:
I paid around $100 for my copy of the SAA Wiring Rules. Not only is this an unnecessary ripoff, a PDF version would be infinitely more navigable.
Hi
Current cost for As/NZS 3000:2007 range from $167 for a one off print of the PDF <$300 for spiral bound ,which allows easy editing with amendments.
Wombat 280 said
09:43 PM Oct 30, 2015
There are absolutely thousands of Aust Standards on the list there are standards on how to write a standard. Something that most don't realize is that unless called up in the legislation a standard is not worth the paper they are printed on. You find that most states call up the standards especially in Workcover and Food Safety legislation. The reason they have gone that way is to keep the legislation upto date without the need to legislate every time they need to add or subject something, by merely referring to the Standard it's all sins are covered . Standards are normally peer reviewed by the industry at a max every five years by the list of agencies mentioned inside the front cover, let alone not all attend the meetings, and with a stroke of the pen they can change anything and the statuary legislation remains unchanged . Now if that was legislation any change could take years before coming into effect after the pollies procrastinate and shuffle the deck chairs to protect the vested interests
Enforcement of - and prosecutions for - LPG Installation non-compliances in the Australia-wide RV Industry is virtually non-existent.
My brief visit to the Sandown Racecourse Motorhome Show in Melbourne on Sunday 11 October convinced me of this fact.
So many RV builders spruik and spout in their advertising brochures that they have 40+ years experience in building RVs.This is nothing but misleading and deceptive advertising being used to give the impression they must know what theyre doing and doing it well if theyve been doing it for so long. To me it doesnt show.
Obviously,even 10 years ago AS5601-2004 was not read thoroughly enough!
AS5601-2004 was a very comprehensive standard. There were no major deletions,amendments,additions or alterations in both AS5601-2010 or AS5601-2013. The only difference with 2010 & 2013 was the separate summary for caravans and boats. (A similar brief summary of AS5601-2004 for caravans and mobile homes was published in April 2004 by Victorias then GasSafe Authority.)
Lets look at a few AS5601-2004 non-compliances.(NB: I did not have time to inspect Avida Motorhomes or the imported American Winnebago Motorhomes).
(A)LPG cylinder compartments(page refs.& clause numbers given where I had them available).
AS5601-2004 covered compartment ventilation very thoroughly.
1/cylinders must be installed where air movement across,through, down between,around etc.is provided. Ref:p229 J3.1 (d). Locations not providing such airflow are prohibited.
2/Any enclosure a LPG cylinder compartment containing a regulator must have ventilation and drainage. Ref: p62 4.15,clauses 4.15.1.1 and 1.2 Two(2)openings shall be provided directly to outside. Size of airvent calculation is shown: allow 7cm2 per m3 of the internal volume of the compartment.
The best and only option in my view is to have an airvent near the top of the compartment door and a tubular drain in the rear bottom corner with a champfered end facing away from the forward direction of travel.(This shape provides the best outward suction according to aerodynamic information.)
What do we see?
(*) no airvents in doors or bottom drains in LPG compartments, with exception of Jayco which had no door airvents but two(2) L-shaped plastic pipe drains about 25mm wide diameter at either end of the compartment base, one assumes one drain for each cylinder!
NB: AS5601-2-2013 page 32 (f) and fig.3.4 is wrong displaying the two air ventilation options. One shows the LPG cylinder compartment with the bottom drain only but no door airvent! This is inadequate venting.
Air must be sucked through the compartment. (I argue that no consideration whatsoever should be given to adventitious gaps around the door edges if they do not seal properly.That is such a very weak unprofessional excuse for poor design and door construction.)
The door option with two airvents but no bottom drain is also very unsatisfactory. Airflow - and wind turbulence will force/suck in air through both airvents by the venturi effect and hold it there.
(NB: compare with those air ingress stoppers on caravans to prevent dust entering. All windows and any other openings are closed when travelling through dusty areas. Open the stopper vent (I call it),the van fills with air during travel but nothing else comes in - especially dust - because it is full of air stopping ingress!)
I also strongly recommend Gas Authorities adopt OH&S precautions with lift up doors. I believe signs warning of collision risk must be affixed to both sides of these door types. Also an additional warning must be included stating the door must be closed when appliances are in use.
(B)Main piping run from LPG cylinder compartment to be outside the Motorhome! (AS5601-2004 p 108/109 clause 6.2.5...)
Too many main LPG runs are out of sight,concealed and inaccessible in sub-floor voids. Australia-wide LPG Authorities must review their own interpretations for these concealed piping runs because being so concealed this raises the need for a fire rating and the installation of adequately sized airvents at either end of the sub-floor enclosure. I argue strongly that adventitious gaps and openings throughout the structure must NOT be considered at all.
(NB: Avan RVs sub-floor inaccessible void containing the whole LPG piping system including the vertical branches off it to appliance connection points needs a full review. In one Avan model the pipe runs under the bed over a metre in length across and touching a 240V pp to behind the refrigerator where it runs next to and almost touches the flame chamber with no heat shield! The refrigerator is installed over a rear wheel so the vibration affects the pipe flexibility and it could touch the chamber which is only 2mm away! Now, surely, nobody can possibly regard this as good practice because no other RV builder does it!
(C)Upper and Lower LPG ventilation.
AS5601-2004, nor any Standard thereafter gives any consideration to the amount of permanent air supply entering through skylights. Why not?
It is though a very common recognised good/best practice to install the lower LPG airvent in the bottom of the entrance door or in the first step riser. It is so common it really must be worded in the next Standard.
Again the better option is the bottom of the entrance door, but the best option in my opinion is the rear wall of the entrance stairwell with a tapered/champfered vent on the outside to draw air out. Lower airvents provide dual purposeventilation: air for human habitation but also an outlet - at the lowest point in the RV for LPG leakage dispersal.
Airvents in the first step riser can have a detrimental effect in that contaminated polluted air- including road grime and dust etc. - can be sucked in by the venturi effect because the opening is parallel to the airflow when travelling. This effect is worse in Avan Motorhomes because the engine exhaust and diesel heater exhausts if installed -are in front of the opening causing polluted contaminated air to be sucked in.
NB: It is the full responsibility of the licensed person who carried out the LPG installation to ensure that the lower LPG airvent cannot be contaminated in any way whatsoever with polluted air, especially from engine exhaust fumes.
A full review by Australia-wide LPG Authorities is immediately required to fully and comprehensively re-examine Avans two(2)lower airvent installation options: one in the first step riser and the other through a vertical shaft built through the floor exiting under the vehicle into a large metal box with one open end covered in undersized wiremesh! The open end is at right angles to the airflow opposite to the venturis parallel effect -so polluted contaminated air of lower pressure will be forced by air of higher pressure into and up the said vertical shaft.This type of construction is a health and safety risk.
(D)HWS flues
Truma brand installation instructions clearly state not to install their unit under an openable window.If it is then warning signs must be affixed to the windows above the flue worded with:This window must be closed when the hot water boiler is in operation. These warning signs should be used for all HWS flues installed close under openable windows. Also it is safer to have a clearly visible warning sign like the red LPG storage sign affixed to the HWS. It is not enough in my view to have: Warning hot to touch embossed on the shiny metal tag on the unit.
NB: too often forgotten is the Standard requirement for HWS flues to be more than 700mm radius from a LPG cylinder valve,even within an RVs LPG cylinder compartment.
(E)Ovens
I believe all ovens should be installed on outside walls so vented combustion fumes and/or unburnt LPG can be vented to the outside air.
Action to compile and serve Rectification Notices on the RV builders responsible for these LPG Installation faults needs to be taken now.
E.& O.E
Same applies to electrical certification Ask for a 240 volt wiring diagram and see what you get. Looking at some original installations in repair shops they must have been done by a left handed monkey, certainly not compliant with any wiring rules I've worked with
AS/NZS 3001:2001 Australian/New Zealand StandardElectrical installationsRelocatable premises (including caravans and tents) and their site installations AS/NZS
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Friday 23rd of October 2015 09:19:46 AM
Totally agree dorian. The average small business just cannot afford to pay a private company to get a copy of their relevant standards. Why the hell was the supply of Australian standards ever privatised when all that was needed them to be place on the internet.
Building standards cost about $5,000 a year to keep updated, maybe that is why very few builders comply.
You can read the standards at your local library and copy a small percentage.
Neil
-- Edited by woolman on Friday 23rd of October 2015 11:29:41 AM
Hi
The electrical standards have ALWAYS had to be bought ,ever since the first one was produced way back in the early 30s!
Cost 2s 6p from memory
Again from memory title was "SAA 1 Australian wiring rules"
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of October 2015 10:07:07 AM
This is the last one I bought and it cost me $4.00, in a second hand bookshop in 1990.
Hi Troopy
I cannot remember what I paid for that one when it came out but a lot more than$4.
I see I was wrong , when I said I thought 1934 was the first edition
It was the 2nd
I wonder what dad did with the 1931
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 26th of October 2015 12:15:10 PM
Hi
Current cost for As/NZS 3000:2007 range from $167 for a one off print of the PDF <$300 for spiral bound ,which allows easy editing with amendments.