There appears to be a mass of people voicing concerns over the disposal of grey water when free camping. Some van and outdoor organisations are trying hard to pass their views as statutory by-laws based on nothing but personal likes or dislikes and certainly lacking any scientific protocols . Firstly the term grey water applies to that from sinks and showers so unless you are doing Number 2's in the sink I can't see a problem with discharging directly to ground . Believe it or not there are parts of the upper north shore and the greater Sydney basin residential area where there are no sewer system services and after basic primary treatment in a domestic septic system the effluents are discharged onto the ground or into local water courses relying of the dilution theory for control. It would seem a double standard if authorities were to impose grey water containment requirements on those who use the grey water generated in the great outdoors to water the local vegetation.
If there are such rules then maybe the manufactures of camper trailers, which are primarily designed for free camping in the wilds, will be made fit or retrofit grey water holding tanks prior to sale / resale . Maybe the Dark Greens will advocate a ban on backpacking into the bush , kayakers using the wild rivers or normal people walking on the grass if such rules receive airplay with pollies looking for votes around election time .
Agree or disagree I'm open to all views on this topic
Chris61 said
02:32 PM Oct 14, 2015
The fitting of grey water tanks allow you to camp in sites that have a "fully self contained" rule. If you wish to stay here is necessary to have a grey water tank.
If you don't wish to comply, simple don't stay there. Its that easy.
I have 2 grey water tanks and it just gives me the option of more places to stay.
It is the same with no pets campsite. If you have a dog, you shouldn't stay there, you need to stay somewhere else.
In the end your choices allow you to stay in certain areas and not others. Its your choice.
Kev Pearce said
03:16 PM Oct 14, 2015
We don't have grey water tanks which (along with security concerns) is a reason we don't free camp. Our van is fitted up so we could if we wished free camp, although the grey water would need to be caught or let go on the ground. The thing that interests me is that in lots of caravan parks they invite you to allow the grey water to run on the ground, watering trees, grass etc. Is grey water so bad?
Mutt said
03:59 PM Oct 14, 2015
Several suburbs near the hills area in Adelaide still have septic tanks and soak age pits. The tanks are pumped out ever couple of years.
Cupie said
04:31 PM Oct 14, 2015
Wombat 280 wrote:
There appears to be a mass of people voicing concerns over the disposal of grey water when free camping. Some van and outdoor organisations are trying hard to pass their views as statutory by-laws based on nothing but personal likes or dislikes and certainly lacking any scientific protocols . Firstly the term grey water applies to that from sinks and showers so unless you are doing Number 2's in the sink I can't see a problem with discharging directly to ground . Believe it or not there are parts of the upper north shore and the greater Sydney basin residential area where there are no sewer system services and after basic primary treatment in a domestic septic system the effluents are discharged onto the ground or into local water courses relying of the dilution theory for control. It would seem a double standard if authorities were to impose grey water containment requirements on those who use the grey water generated in the great outdoors to water the local vegetation.
If there are such rules then maybe the manufactures of camper trailers, which are primarily designed for free camping in the wilds, will be made fit or retrofit grey water holding tanks prior to sale / resale . Maybe the Dark Greens will advocate a ban on backpacking into the bush , kayakers using the wild rivers or normal people walking on the grass if such rules receive airplay with pollies looking for votes around election time .
Agree or disagree I'm open to all views on this topic
I agree.
At home I actually use the van hose to dump my grey water (from the showers & Washing machine that is) on the gardens. Correction. I now have another set of hoses for grey water disposal at home after having left the van hoses at home on one trip!
We don't free camp either.
None the less, I will be fitting a grey water system based on the two 100mm sewerage pipes approach; just because I can.
D and D said
05:18 PM Oct 14, 2015
There are heaps of places that an RV can be parked that don't have any rules on the discharge of grey water and some places actually encourage campers to discharge on trees and lawns. There are some places that either tolerate the discharge or, at worst, prohibit it all together. If you don't have a grey water retention system that satisfies the regulatory authority and don't wish to fit one the simple solution is to camp elsewhere. If you do have a retention system be aware that it will become septic quite quickly and should be discharged at a proper dump point, don't take it away and dump it on the ground at another camp site that allows grey water discharge.
Dave
Meredith said
05:54 PM Oct 14, 2015
We don't have a grey water tank and probably won't fit one, though if I was buying a new van I would ask for one. I know of a couple of places where grey water tanks are required and since we don't meet that standard we won't stay at them, its not so many to be an issue, at least currently.
Many places its ok to put grey water to ground and we do it, though we show the courtesy of using a hose to run it to places such as under trees where it won't just make a huge puddle on the ground where people are likely to walk, or if its a short stop or not practical to run a hose we use a bucket, make sure it doesn't overflow and pour it somewhere suitable. We have seen some people who aren't that considerate and let it run straight from the van into the one spot for days, making a muddy mess. Also have seen people running it directly onto concrete paving in a parking/rest area, not just a few drops from rinsing up a couple of dishes either but large amounts of water. Whether you have a grey tank or not its not hard to consider who will come after you.
Vince said
05:59 PM Oct 14, 2015
As I read into your post yes can a agree there is a double standard, however in camp areas requiring full self containment it is reasonable to conform to the rule.
Imagine 50 to 100 vans letting out grey water in the area and as you put it shower / sink water, containing some critical ingredients and detergents and there are some toxic mixes here.
I believe in keeping access to as many spots as possible and the way to do so is bide by the rules. If it doesn't suit...move on.
Vince
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:01 PM Oct 14, 2015
It matters not what we think.
The only person who's opinion matters is the person who controls the area in which we want to stay.
If they say "no grey water on the ground", that is the end of the debate.
We have people camp at our home. I reserve the right to decide if they can drain their grey water on our property, or not.
I am sure most here would expect to decide what other people do on their property too.
Cheers,
Peter
KFT said
07:00 PM Oct 14, 2015
Vince wrote:
Imagine 50 to 100 vans letting out grey water in the area and as you put it shower / sink water, containing some critical ingredients and detergents and there are some toxic mixes here.
Vince
This already happens at many thousands of campsites and caravan parks all over Australia if the drainage was at all harmful there would be many desolate camp areas and caravan parks too.
Thing is though, there aren't any of the above that I have noticed, in fact many of them seem to flourish with the grey water contribution.I know our lawn and fruit trees certainly do.
frank
iana said
07:34 PM Oct 14, 2015
It is obvious that this subject is neither black or white but a very grey area!
Our van from Jayco is coming with factory fitted grey water tanks.
Bruce and Bev said
07:54 PM Oct 14, 2015
Ian - great to see a bit of humour into a subject that has been thrashed in the past.
We dont have grey tanks fitted to our 1 yr old 'van, so we dont stay where it is prohibited. But its interesting to note that most CP's, especially those with low rain fall or high scheme water prices who will ask you to discharge your grey water around nearby trees or onto grass. Nowdays most detergents and hair cleaning products are biodegradable (we make sure when we buy) and if the grey water is emptied straight away there is no risk of it "fermenting" into something nasty. We recently stayed at a CP in SA and although sullage points were fitted, the owner told us he preferred that we empty our grey water onto his trees (the only water they get and they were strong and healthy (that CP was about 3/4 full and no-one was using the sulluge system, but watering his trees.
-- Edited by Bruce and Bev on Wednesday 14th of October 2015 09:57:01 PM
Spydermann said
08:15 PM Oct 14, 2015
I camped in a van park along the Murray recently and asked where the gully trap was. The reply was to just run the sullage under the van or on the closest tree as the park needed all the water it could get. As someone noted, grey water disposal is neither black nor white.
Hey Jim said
08:48 PM Oct 14, 2015
Hi their Bruce & Bev,
Only the best will do on my Mango trees. no late night wee's either. You can put the rest down our man hole.
Aus-Kiwi said
08:59 PM Oct 14, 2015
I can see some issues with certain soils ? Like clay where water doesn't disperse well.
Cars, van wheels can sink into ground..
Is it the new generation where rule don't matter ? A grey water tank isn't that hard to fit.. Even the 12v pumps are rather cheap...
A sump and bilge pump can be fitted to store water higher if required.. .??
dazren said
09:13 PM Oct 14, 2015
I can remember a number of years back, when just about everyone in victoria was on the big government campaign to Save water, ?? Government subsidised Rain Water Tanks, installed by the thousands, everybody watering gardens i hour early morning or late evening, and most people had hoses attached to the waste water pipes around the home directing the grey water to the lawns and gardens, ? all this was approved and allowed by the government bodies, that declared it was safe and would Not cause ill health or damage to lawns or trees and plants [ not vegie gardens ]
But now all of a sudden, Grey water is damaging and toxic !! Go Figure ? either the authorities were wrong back then, or they are wrong now ??
dishlicker said
09:30 PM Oct 14, 2015
Wombat Well done ( NEW POST HOW TO OPEN A CAN OF WORMS) As i am not yet a full blown grey one (almost there) i am able to bring it back to home base and let loose on the garden (the trees are green) But if full time (counting days mths yrs) i would try to use dump points or isolated areas where limited if any harm could occur. Anyway good can opener id rather open a VB cheers.
NeilandRaine said
09:35 PM Oct 14, 2015
The problem I have with grey water is the people who just let it run on the ground. Next person in has to park on the wet spot. Im sure most people have sullage hoses and if you run your water into the trees everyone wins
KFT said
09:57 PM Oct 14, 2015
NeilandRaine wrote:
The problem I have with grey water is the people who just let it run on the ground. Next person in has to park on the wet spot. Im sure most people have sullage hoses and if you run your water into the trees everyone wins
Totally agree, we use the same approach.
very irresponsible and inconsiderate to just let it run near where you and others are camped.
frank
-- Edited by KFT on Wednesday 14th of October 2015 09:58:17 PM
Wombat 280 said
09:58 PM Oct 14, 2015
dishlicker wrote:
Wombat Well done ( NEW POST HOW TO OPEN A CAN OF WORMS) As i am not yet a full blown grey one (almost there) i am able to bring it back to home base and let loose on the garden (the trees are green) But if full time (counting days mths yrs) i would try to use dump points or isolated areas where limited if any harm could occur. Anyway good can opener id rather open a VB cheers.
Thanks mate that was the intention hate to see people get taken by surprise and then complain they weren't told. The point I think some missed is some organisations attempting to convince the average camper that IT's THE LAW which is total BS. Yes if a site manger doesn't not want grey water disposal on his site then that's fine and we respect his her view. but what do they do with the black water for long-term stayers a cassette dunny will rapidly reach capacity in a few days , What I hear you pee behind the trees certainly a NO NO NO , heaven forbid that's black water.
I just wonder how much grey water needing ground disposal one would generate if free camping I have always found free camping means a very frugal use of water even when camped on a water source . Part of the problem is that far too many RV users want to take their entire home comforts with them , we really have lost the art of camping in the wilds the wilds will support the use of an en-suite washing machine and hot and cold running water. Why bother going bush, it's no wonder our kids are so soft.
Bruce and Bev said
09:59 PM Oct 14, 2015
Jim. It depends on the quality of the red wine and fish and chips as to whether or not late not "watering" will help your Mangoes. I guess when we visit you next year, we might just have to try (and I love Mangoes !!!!)
KFT said
10:16 PM Oct 14, 2015
Mine is not black cause I can see through it when I wee.
What is "Urea" fertilizer made from I wonder?
frank
navynurse said
10:50 PM Oct 14, 2015
I'm just back from Carnarvon gorge and the park there requests that all grey water is directed to the trees and plants around the van sites.
Allan
03_Troopy said
11:12 PM Oct 14, 2015
NeilandRaine wrote:
The problem I have with grey water is the people who just let it run on the ground. Next person in has to park on the wet spot. Im sure most people have sullage hoses and if you run your water into the trees everyone wins
Not the old "who gets the wet spot" debate
Young Simmo said
01:23 AM Oct 15, 2015
Sorry if I am boringly obvious but, to me the grey water debate is a storm in a TEACUP why? Half a million Aussies drop their washing up water on the ground so what. 20 million sheep and 10 million Cattle and 1 or 2 Roos, Rabbits and Foxes drop their guts on the ground. OK come and get me, I know that 1% is out there.
Sorry you are wrong,,,,, I am not a Sh** stirrer, ask my wife when she finishes washing the car and painting the roof.
You are a really nice lot of people, and I am enjoying my little trip on the Grey Nomads.
Simmo.
grahamg said
07:14 AM Oct 15, 2015
It also depends on the caravan owers. Some people are pigs so rules need to made to cover for a few inconsiderate people. Recently stayed in a C.P which didn't have drains for each site. All the grey water from the next door site ran under my van.
dorian said
07:52 AM Oct 15, 2015
ISTM that the major concern with grey water is that it may contain the same kind of pathogens that might be found in black water. For example, bath water and washing machine water might contain faecal matter. The following sites warn against using grey water to irrigate vegetables that will be eaten raw, and to stop using grey water if anyone in the family is ill.
Has anyone considered that the grey water issue may not be about the water at all, but complying with a ruling in CP regulations by the CP owners. I don't know, but maybe RV's that don't have waste water outlets then under the rules become the same as tents, etc and dont require the same underground plumbing and electrical works, or pay different rates or fees for the licence?
Just another angle to look at this?
justcruisin01 said
09:24 AM Oct 15, 2015
Vince wrote:
Imagine 50 to 100 vans letting out grey water in the area and as you put it shower / sink water, containing some critical ingredients and detergents and there are some toxic mixes here.
Vince
Mate, how much more concentrated can it be than these the out of date caravan parks that dont have any sullage & are located in the middle of towns?????? 2nd, IF you have a holding tank & wish to stay at one of these so called controled areas for a longer period of time are you going to connect up the van & head to a dump point & then return each time the tank is full.?
We grew & lived on farms where the waste water was drained out onto the grass for yrs, the result was thriving grasses. Also worked on a property which ran a very large piggery from which all effluent was pumped onto sections of steep hill sides that only grew ferns & bladey grass, the result was amazing, black green grasses that provided food for cattle.
All this ruling is making people turn fresh water into black water in a dry country, so this hole idear has become a load of crap.
JC
wasn_me said
09:59 AM Oct 15, 2015
D and D wrote:
There are heaps of places that an RV can be parked that don't have any rules on the discharge of grey water and some places actually encourage campers to discharge on trees and lawns. There are some places that either tolerate the discharge or, at worst, prohibit it all together. If you don't have a grey water retention system that satisfies the regulatory authority and don't wish to fit one the simple solution is to camp elsewhere. If you do have a retention system be aware that it will become septic quite quickly and should be discharged at a proper dump point, don't take it away and dump it on the ground at another camp site that allows grey water discharge.
Dave
Agree totally about grey water becoming septic (toxic) after time. If there's no valve or U bend between the sink, basin or shower & the holding tank, which there doesn't appear to be, as holding tanks are usually plumbed to existing drainage. How long before we see people becoming sick from breathing in toxins??
Drainage / plumbing regulations have been in place in household situations to stop people becoming sick. Do the same drainage / plumbing regulations apply to caravan construction?? I think not.
There appears to be a mass of people voicing concerns over the disposal of grey water when free camping. Some van and outdoor organisations are trying hard to pass their views as statutory by-laws based on nothing but personal likes or dislikes and certainly lacking any scientific protocols . Firstly the term grey water applies to that from sinks and showers so unless you are doing Number 2's in the sink I can't see a problem with discharging directly to ground . Believe it or not there are parts of the upper north shore and the greater Sydney basin residential area where there are no sewer system services and after basic primary treatment in a domestic septic system the effluents are discharged onto the ground or into local water courses relying of the dilution theory for control. It would seem a double standard if authorities were to impose grey water containment requirements on those who use the grey water generated in the great outdoors to water the local vegetation.
If there are such rules then maybe the manufactures of camper trailers, which are primarily designed for free camping in the wilds, will be made fit or retrofit grey water holding tanks prior to sale / resale . Maybe the Dark Greens will advocate a ban on backpacking into the bush , kayakers using the wild rivers or normal people walking on the grass if such rules receive airplay with pollies looking for votes around election time .
Agree or disagree I'm open to all views on this topic
The fitting of grey water tanks allow you to camp in sites that have a "fully self contained" rule. If you wish to stay here is necessary to have a grey water tank.
If you don't wish to comply, simple don't stay there. Its that easy.
I have 2 grey water tanks and it just gives me the option of more places to stay.
It is the same with no pets campsite. If you have a dog, you shouldn't stay there, you need to stay somewhere else.
In the end your choices allow you to stay in certain areas and not others. Its your choice.
We don't have grey water tanks which (along with security concerns) is a reason we don't free camp. Our van is fitted up so we could if we wished free camp, although the grey water would need to be caught or let go on the ground. The thing that interests me is that in lots of caravan parks they invite you to allow the grey water to run on the ground, watering trees, grass etc. Is grey water so bad?
I agree.
At home I actually use the van hose to dump my grey water (from the showers & Washing machine that is) on the gardens. Correction. I now have another set of hoses for grey water disposal at home after having left the van hoses at home on one trip!
We don't free camp either.
None the less, I will be fitting a grey water system based on the two 100mm sewerage pipes approach; just because I can.
Dave
Many places its ok to put grey water to ground and we do it, though we show the courtesy of using a hose to run it to places such as under trees where it won't just make a huge puddle on the ground where people are likely to walk, or if its a short stop or not practical to run a hose we use a bucket, make sure it doesn't overflow and pour it somewhere suitable. We have seen some people who aren't that considerate and let it run straight from the van into the one spot for days, making a muddy mess. Also have seen people running it directly onto concrete paving in a parking/rest area, not just a few drops from rinsing up a couple of dishes either but large amounts of water. Whether you have a grey tank or not its not hard to consider who will come after you.
Imagine 50 to 100 vans letting out grey water in the area and as you put it shower / sink water, containing some critical ingredients and detergents and there are some toxic mixes here.
I believe in keeping access to as many spots as possible and the way to do so is bide by the rules. If it doesn't suit...move on.
Vince
The only person who's opinion matters is the person who controls the area in which we want to stay.
If they say "no grey water on the ground", that is the end of the debate.
We have people camp at our home. I reserve the right to decide if they can drain their grey water on our property, or not.
I am sure most here would expect to decide what other people do on their property too.
Cheers,
Peter
This already happens at many thousands of campsites and caravan parks all over Australia if the drainage was at all harmful there would be many desolate camp areas and caravan parks too.
Thing is though, there aren't any of the above that I have noticed, in fact many of them seem to flourish with the grey water contribution.I know our lawn and fruit trees certainly do.
frank
Our van from Jayco is coming with factory fitted grey water tanks.
Ian - great to see a bit of humour into a subject that has been thrashed in the past.
We dont have grey tanks fitted to our 1 yr old 'van, so we dont stay where it is prohibited. But its interesting to note that most CP's, especially those with low rain fall or high scheme water prices who will ask you to discharge your grey water around nearby trees or onto grass. Nowdays most detergents and hair cleaning products are biodegradable (we make sure when we buy) and if the grey water is emptied straight away there is no risk of it "fermenting" into something nasty. We recently stayed at a CP in SA and although sullage points were fitted, the owner told us he preferred that we empty our grey water onto his trees (the only water they get and they were strong and healthy (that CP was about 3/4 full and no-one was using the sulluge system, but watering his trees.
-- Edited by Bruce and Bev on Wednesday 14th of October 2015 09:57:01 PM
Hi their Bruce & Bev,
Only the best will do on my Mango trees. no late night wee's either. You can put the rest down our man hole.
Cars, van wheels can sink into ground..
Is it the new generation where rule don't matter ? A grey water tank isn't that hard to fit.. Even the 12v pumps are rather cheap...
A sump and bilge pump can be fitted to store water higher if required.. .??
I can remember a number of years back, when just about everyone in victoria was on the big government campaign to Save water, ?? Government subsidised Rain Water Tanks, installed by the thousands, everybody watering gardens i hour early morning or late evening, and most people had hoses attached to the waste water pipes around the home directing the grey water to the lawns and gardens, ? all this was approved and allowed by the government bodies, that declared it was safe and would Not cause ill health or damage to lawns or trees and plants [ not vegie gardens ]
But now all of a sudden, Grey water is damaging and toxic !! Go Figure ? either the authorities were wrong back then, or they are wrong now ??
Wombat Well done ( NEW POST HOW TO OPEN A CAN OF WORMS) As i am not yet a full blown grey one (almost there) i am able to bring it back to home base and let loose on the garden (the trees are green) But if full time (counting days mths yrs) i would try to use dump points or isolated areas where limited if any harm could occur. Anyway good can opener id rather open a VB cheers.
Totally agree, we use the same approach.
very irresponsible and inconsiderate to just let it run near where you and others are camped.
frank
-- Edited by KFT on Wednesday 14th of October 2015 09:58:17 PM
Thanks mate that was the intention hate to see people get taken by surprise and then complain they weren't told. The point I think some missed is some organisations attempting to convince the average camper that IT's THE LAW which is total BS. Yes if a site manger doesn't not want grey water disposal on his site then that's fine and we respect his her view. but what do they do with the black water for long-term stayers a cassette dunny will rapidly reach capacity in a few days , What I hear you pee behind the trees certainly a NO NO NO , heaven forbid that's black water.
I just wonder how much grey water needing ground disposal one would generate if free camping I have always found free camping means a very frugal use of water even when camped on a water source . Part of the problem is that far too many RV users want to take their entire home comforts with them , we really have lost the art of camping in the wilds the wilds will support the use of an en-suite washing machine and hot and cold running water. Why bother going bush, it's no wonder our kids are so soft.
What is "Urea" fertilizer made from I wonder?
frank
Allan
Not the old "who gets the wet spot" debate
Sorry if I am boringly obvious but, to me the grey water debate is a storm in a TEACUP why? Half a million Aussies drop their washing up water on the ground so what. 20 million sheep and 10 million Cattle and 1 or 2 Roos, Rabbits and Foxes drop their guts on the ground.
OK come and get me, I know that 1% is out there.
Sorry you are wrong,,,,, I am not a Sh** stirrer, ask my wife when she finishes washing the car and painting the roof.
You are a really nice lot of people, and I am enjoying my little trip on the Grey Nomads.
Simmo.
yourenergysavings.gov.au/water/sustainable-water-systems/greywater
www.yourhome.gov.au/water/wastewater-reuse
Just another angle to look at this?
Mate, how much more concentrated can it be than these the out of date caravan parks that dont have any sullage & are located in the middle of towns??????
2nd, IF you have a holding tank & wish to stay at one of these so called controled areas for a longer period of time are you going to connect up the van & head to a dump point & then return each time the tank is full.?
We grew & lived on farms where the waste water was drained out onto the grass for yrs, the result was thriving grasses. Also worked on a property which ran a very large piggery from which all effluent was pumped onto sections of steep hill sides that only grew ferns & bladey grass, the result was amazing, black green grasses that provided food for cattle.
All this ruling is making people turn fresh water into black water in a dry country, so this hole idear has become a load of crap.
JC
Agree totally about grey water becoming septic (toxic) after time. If there's no valve or U bend between the sink, basin or shower & the holding tank, which there doesn't appear to be, as holding tanks are usually plumbed to existing drainage. How long before we see people becoming sick from breathing in toxins??
Drainage / plumbing regulations have been in place in household situations to stop people becoming sick. Do the same drainage / plumbing regulations apply to caravan construction?? I think not.
Cheers Pete