Is there any reason, legally or otherwise, why we can't put a car gas cylinder onto the caravan and fill it up at the LPG pump? It would be a heck of a lot cheaper. Of course, I'm talking about getting a licensed gas fitter to install it. Anybody know about this, or done it themselves?
Possum3 said
06:01 PM Oct 8, 2015
Although everyone seems to use the generic term LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) where in fact there are three common gasses i.e. Butane, Propane, methane or LNG (Liquid Natural Gas).
Stoves and appliances use LPG (Liquid Propane Gas). LPG has a higher calorific value (burns hotter) and requires more oxygen.
Cars run on Compressed natural gas that use oxygen at a rate of 10:1 compared to Appliances using oxygen at a rate of 25:1
Short answer gasses are not interchangeable.
Mutt said
06:18 PM Oct 8, 2015
When I worked in a service station the LPG tanker would fill the lpg gas bottle for filling small lpg bottles then would fill the large tank which was connected to the lpg bowser. I questioned him and his reply was " it's all the same gas. Car and bottled gas".
Spydermann said
06:31 PM Oct 8, 2015
When you buy a gas stove it usually has what gas it's set for. The size of the openings in the stove / BBQ are dependent on the gas type. A BBQ running on natural gas (mains) has different burners to one running on propane (cylinders) Gasses are not all interchangeable as Possum3 noted. However if car and caravan gas are the same, then that would appear to be OK.
-- Edited by Spydermann on Thursday 8th of October 2015 06:32:50 PM
KevKim37 said
07:13 PM Oct 8, 2015
Possum I think if cars were running on Compressed LNG (only used on Large trucks,Ships etc) the COST to fit would be Astronomical as there are Not many filling stations and the Technology even though it is there is Not practical for Private Use yet, compared with the LPG Installations which have been around for close to 50 yrs. The Old story that the Autogas and Bottle Type LPG are different is Not Entirely Correct as Tankers that fill up Servo Gas Bowsers will also in the same delivery fill the LPG Dispenser Tank in nearly all country towns (and I have seen this many times and spoken to the drivers and Servo owners of this). After chatting with various Retired Gas Industry people over the last 13 yrs Full Time Travelling they all come up with the same answer. That is yes they DO use the same Tankers to fill up at Most Country Towns because of Cost Limitations of Transporting different Tanks and the only difference between the Autogas and the Bottle LPG which can be from the same tanker is as with Diesel (Summer/Winter Type) there is the same with the Gas Quality. That being in Summer they get away with adding More Butane and Winter they remove the Butane. The reason being is in Summer there is Not Much problem with Cold Temps(unless High Altitudes) as Butane Will Not Boil off from Heat of Vaporization at approx -0.5 degrees whereas propane boils off at Approx -40 degrees and also they are allowed by Government Std's to have a certain amount of Butane in the gas which if they can use will also increase their Takings instead of having to Burn it off as waste because they don't have the Capacity to keep Stockpiling Butane.
I had a problem recently after filling my vehicle Diesel/Gas and a 9kg LPG at the same servo ie. Gas Bowser and LPG Decanting Station and both the vehicle and caravan were having problems. The vehicle which I have 11yr records of Gas usage went from an average of 18kms/litre to 14kms/litre never in 10yrs had that occurred. Then the LPG bottle on the van was getting bad condensation around it and even though half full we were having trouble with pressure at the Cooktop burners. If you have ever used the Lunch Box type Cookers in Cold Weather they have exactly the Same Problem where while using one can it gets that COLD that you have to changeover to another can and let the first can warm up for about 5-10 minutes before being able to use again. The reason being is that the Almost Pure Butane will Not as I mentioned before Boil off at the colder ambient temps. I have seen the price of the Bowser Autogas and inquired about the Price of the Bottle Gas in these Servos and surprisingly there is a Marked Price difference between them both favouring the Bowser gas as cheaper by far.
Crikeys I used to weigh all Bottles and Refill for 20 yrs at servos when we didn't Rip people off it was just a Complimentary service back then. Now some of the young people I see filling scares me to watch when they haven't been taught to earth the bottle and the Swap and Go's with bottles out of date and in Shabby Condition and some Not even filled properly giving less user time than the last bottle.
Cheers Kev.
Cheers Kev.
Dougwe said
07:19 PM Oct 8, 2015
My daughter had one hooked up at home in Townsville as the only gas was her stove. Worked well too.
Cupie said
07:57 PM Oct 8, 2015
I have a mate who picked up a gas bottle that had been used on a gas operated factory 'end loader'. With a set of adaptors he has been filling the gas bottle at servos & then decanting to his family's BBQ & Van bottles for years.
Sahara05 said
09:41 PM Oct 8, 2015
All car and forklift cylinfers are liquid takeoff,bbq cylinders are gas takeoff.
Jeff
PeterD said
11:25 PM Oct 8, 2015
Mutt wrote:
When I worked in a service station the LPG tanker would fill the lpg gas bottle for filling small lpg bottles then would fill the large tank which was connected to the lpg bowser. I questioned him and his reply was " it's all the same gas. Car and bottled gas".
"it's all the same gas. Car and bottled gas" That does not apply in every case. Go to this page and see what actually be in auto gas in Oz. Because you can get any mix of gas within that specification from service station dispensers you can not guarantee that you will get straight propane from a service station. That is why the regulations do not allow you to fill your own cylinders from service station auto dispensers.
Peter_n_Margaret said
01:19 AM Oct 10, 2015
The short answer is that it is illegal to run appliances from auto gas.
It would be legal to run a gas powered generator in a caravan or motorhome on auto LPG and I know one that does this.
By following the links in the article you will get more supporting information.
I trust the information supplied by Collyn Rivers but not necessarily so some of the opinions or blunt assertions that I get from web sites like this one.
-- Edited by Cupie on Saturday 10th of October 2015 09:46:29 AM
Possum3 said
02:38 PM Oct 10, 2015
Cupie thanks for the link. Appears to be good reference and certainly better than relying on old brain cells with info learned over half a century ago.
banjo said
08:31 PM Oct 10, 2015
Here in WA. Kleenheat gas have got the distribution almost sewn up, they have a road train double tanker does the whole coast then down the inland route, every week, one tanker one gas only.
Same gas goes into those re-fill bottles as goes to the servo's, I know this is true as while we were over wintering in our NW, I had a chat to the driver that decants the load at the CP where we stay, same gas, one truck two bulk containers.
He loads the bulk containers in Perth and delivers his regular route every week.
May be different on the East coast but I wouldn't think so.
To answer the thread question, I know several people that decant their own cylinders, illegal yes, dangerous to the thoughtless yes, but it can be done.
Fuzzball said
02:29 PM Oct 11, 2015
Thank you everybody for your informative replies, but a special kudos to Banjo. I had suspected this all along.
Now, to work out whether I can put a car gas tank under my caravan legally? I'm not sure whether there is a limit on the amount of gas that can be carried, where it can be carried etc. Does anybody know legalities?
Possum3 said
03:47 PM Oct 11, 2015
Note as Sahara 05 mentioned in earlier post car and forklift tanks are designed for liquid take off - whereas caravan and appliance are upright for gas take off. That would mean standing the car fuel storage tank on its end. It would be a pretty game gas engineer to sign off on legal fitment.
Mutt said
09:44 PM Oct 11, 2015
Some cars use liquid injection of lpg which gives 20% more power than a gas converter. They use liquid and gas in automotive use. Depends on which type is installed. Also car bottles fill on the side not on the top as caravan bottles do. So the bottle could be mounted flat. The gas regulator converts it from liquid to gas.
Mutt said
09:45 PM Oct 11, 2015
Some cars use liquid injection of lpg which gives 20% more power than a gas converter. They use liquid and gas in automotive use. Depends on which type is installed. Also car bottles fill on the side not on the top as caravan bottles do. So the bottle could be mounted flat. The gas regulator converts it from liquid to gas.
Jaahn said
08:34 AM Oct 12, 2015
Mutt wrote:
Some cars use liquid injection of lpg which gives 20% more power than a gas converter. They use liquid and gas in automotive use. Depends on which type is installed. Also car bottles fill on the side not on the top as caravan bottles do. So the bottle could be mounted flat. The gas regulator converts it from liquid to gas.
Hi
No expert but AFAIK all automotive tanks including smaller forklift etc bottles use liquid withdrawal. The liquid is "converted" to gas if required in the converter/regulator, which is heated by coolant to supply the heat needed. All portable appliances use gas withdrawal and must be used in the correct position to enable this. The rate of withdrawal is restricted by the size of the bottle to prevent excessive temperature drop.
The more important factor could be the fill arrangement. As you know the small portable bottles are usually filled by releasing the valve to allow the LPG to flow in naturally and the correct fill level is manually done. This is not the usual current way to fill the auto tanks of whatever size. They have fill valves which work with pumped LPG and shut the flow when filled to the correct level, which is less than full to the top. This is required for safety in all circumstances.
I would think that the filling arrangement would be just as important as the withdrawal and would need to be certified by a qualified fitter of the setup where ever it is.
Jaahn
jose said
05:25 AM Nov 2, 2015
cars run on lpg or lng. lpg is the most used on cars at service stations. natural gas is the 1 used in your home ap
-- Edited by jose on Monday 2nd of November 2015 05:37:32 AM
Roving-Dutchy said
02:13 PM Nov 8, 2015
Take care, some of the information given in some of the posts is not correct and might cause harm if used.
Cheers
David
Stoves and appliances use LPG (Liquid Propane Gas). LPG has a higher calorific value (burns hotter) and requires more oxygen.
Cars run on Compressed natural gas that use oxygen at a rate of 10:1 compared to Appliances using oxygen at a rate of 25:1
Short answer gasses are not interchangeable.
When you buy a gas stove it usually has what gas it's set for. The size of the openings in the stove / BBQ are dependent on the gas type. A BBQ running on natural gas (mains) has different burners to one running on propane (cylinders) Gasses are not all interchangeable as Possum3 noted. However if car and caravan gas are the same, then that would appear to be OK.
-- Edited by Spydermann on Thursday 8th of October 2015 06:32:50 PM
Possum I think if cars were running on Compressed LNG (only used on Large trucks,Ships etc) the COST to fit would be Astronomical as there are Not many filling stations and the Technology even though it is there is Not practical for Private Use yet, compared with the LPG Installations which have been around for close to 50 yrs. The Old story that the Autogas and Bottle Type LPG are different is Not Entirely Correct as Tankers that fill up Servo Gas Bowsers will also in the same delivery fill the LPG Dispenser Tank in nearly all country towns (and I have seen this many times and spoken to the drivers and Servo owners of this). After chatting with various Retired Gas Industry people over the last 13 yrs Full Time Travelling they all come up with the same answer. That is yes they DO use the same Tankers to fill up at Most Country Towns because of Cost Limitations of Transporting different Tanks and the only difference between the Autogas and the Bottle LPG which can be from the same tanker is as with Diesel (Summer/Winter Type) there is the same with the Gas Quality. That being in Summer they get away with adding More Butane and Winter they remove the Butane. The reason being is in Summer there is Not Much problem with Cold Temps(unless High Altitudes) as Butane Will Not Boil off from Heat of Vaporization at approx -0.5 degrees whereas propane boils off at Approx -40 degrees and also they are allowed by Government Std's to have a certain amount of Butane in the gas which if they can use will also increase their Takings instead of having to Burn it off as waste because they don't have the Capacity to keep Stockpiling Butane.
I had a problem recently after filling my vehicle Diesel/Gas and a 9kg LPG at the same servo ie. Gas Bowser and LPG Decanting Station and both the vehicle and caravan were having problems. The vehicle which I have 11yr records of Gas usage went from an average of 18kms/litre to 14kms/litre never in 10yrs had that occurred. Then the LPG bottle on the van was getting bad condensation around it and even though half full we were having trouble with pressure at the Cooktop burners. If you have ever used the Lunch Box type Cookers in Cold Weather they have exactly the Same Problem where while using one can it gets that COLD that you have to changeover to another can and let the first can warm up for about 5-10 minutes before being able to use again. The reason being is that the Almost Pure Butane will Not as I mentioned before Boil off at the colder ambient temps. I have seen the price of the Bowser Autogas and inquired about the Price of the Bottle Gas in these Servos and surprisingly there is a Marked Price difference between them both favouring the Bowser gas as cheaper by far.
Crikeys I used to weigh all Bottles and Refill for 20 yrs at servos when we didn't Rip people off it was just a Complimentary service back then. Now some of the young people I see filling scares me to watch when they haven't been taught to earth the bottle and the Swap and Go's with bottles out of date and in Shabby Condition and some Not even filled properly giving less user time than the last bottle.
Cheers Kev.
Cheers Kev.
I have a mate who picked up a gas bottle that had been used on a gas operated factory 'end loader'. With a set of adaptors he has been filling the gas bottle at servos & then decanting to his family's BBQ & Van bottles for years.
All car and forklift cylinfers are liquid takeoff,bbq cylinders are gas takeoff.
Jeff
"it's all the same gas. Car and bottled gas" That does not apply in every case. Go to this page and see what actually be in auto gas in Oz. Because you can get any mix of gas within that specification from service station dispensers you can not guarantee that you will get straight propane from a service station. That is why the regulations do not allow you to fill your own cylinders from service station auto dispensers.
It would be legal to run a gas powered generator in a caravan or motorhome on auto LPG and I know one that does this.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi ..
Reference to this site may assist ....
http://caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/autogas-in-caravans-and-motor-homes/
By following the links in the article you will get more supporting information.
I trust the information supplied by Collyn Rivers but not necessarily so some of the opinions or blunt assertions that I get from web sites like this one.
-- Edited by Cupie on Saturday 10th of October 2015 09:46:29 AM
Same gas goes into those re-fill bottles as goes to the servo's, I know this is true as while we were over wintering in our NW, I had a chat to the driver that decants the load at the CP where we stay, same gas, one truck two bulk containers.
He loads the bulk containers in Perth and delivers his regular route every week.
May be different on the East coast but I wouldn't think so.
To answer the thread question, I know several people that decant their own cylinders, illegal yes, dangerous to the thoughtless yes, but it can be done.
Hi
No expert but AFAIK all automotive tanks including smaller forklift etc bottles use liquid withdrawal. The liquid is "converted" to gas if required in the converter/regulator, which is heated by coolant to supply the heat needed. All portable appliances use gas withdrawal and must be used in the correct position to enable this.
The rate of withdrawal is restricted by the size of the bottle to prevent excessive temperature drop.
The more important factor could be the fill arrangement. As you know the small portable bottles are usually filled by releasing the valve to allow the LPG to flow in naturally and the correct fill level is manually done. This is not the usual current way to fill the auto tanks of whatever size. They have fill valves which work with pumped LPG and shut the flow when filled to the correct level, which is less than full to the top. This is required for safety in all circumstances.
I would think that the filling arrangement would be just as important as the withdrawal and would need to be certified by a qualified fitter of the setup where ever it is.
Jaahn
cars run on lpg or lng. lpg is the most used on cars at service stations. natural gas is the 1 used in your home ap
-- Edited by jose on Monday 2nd of November 2015 05:37:32 AM
Cheers
David