1.How does a Council Ranger define ( If you carry Percription Medications with you) the difference between( No over night camping) and Pulled up for a rest ( Pit Stop) If you are parked just off the road ( STILL hitched up,& Feeling Unwell) in a rest area displayed by road signage.
2.If a Police officer asks you to move on in a country area no signage, and you inform the officer you are unwell to drive at this time.
1. Does the police move you on.
2. Give you a ticket for failing to obey a directive.
3. Or you move on ,And you have a medical event causing Grevious bodly harm to third parties .in a motor accident.
4. Do you have a voice recording dash cam, and inform the officer you are recording the conversation.And will they take the blame??????
5. Free camping for all, after all.??????????????????????
6. Deal with it through a Magistrate. Know your Rights. Don't take a ticket for granted and pay the fine. Free Camping. Or Stopping for a rest.
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 04:13:48 PM
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Tuesday 9th of June 2015 08:42:01 AM
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Tuesday 9th of June 2015 08:43:10 AM
Bruce and Bev said
04:24 PM Jun 8, 2015
Hey Jim. Basically youre right. Rangers powers are VERY limited and they cannot force you to move. The best the Council or Shire can do is issue you an infringement letter fining you under your by-laws. If you don't pay it and return to that State - you may find you may get locked up for non-payment of a fine as ultimately the council will pass it on to the States fines enforcement agency.
The police aren't generally interested in enforcing by-laws unless there is a good reason (or hes close with the Council/Ranger) for wanting to move you on (locals attacking you or other safety issues). I would be surprised to hear too many accounts from others where police have got actively involved in people stopping at non-designated areas unless there are good reasons (and Im speaking as an ex-cop of 13 years - we only enforced by-laws if there was a "bigger picture" for doing it)
Hey Jim said
04:36 PM Jun 8, 2015
Hi bruce & bev,
I hope I didn't wake you from your nana knap,
Off the topic, go back to tects forum Re internet
Jim
grahamg said
04:52 PM Jun 8, 2015
if the sign says no overnight stay or no parking then you are breaking a law. The sydney councils are stopping back packers by just putting up no stopping or no parking signs, so they can just give out parking traffics.
Murraman said
05:09 PM Jun 8, 2015
Hey Jim, I think this a very grey area. On the one hand we have the RMS telling us to take a rest every 2 hours and then we have Councils telling us we shouldn't camp in certain areas.
If you/me were unwell or too tired to continue then as long as you pull over where it is safe and not obstructing traffic, I think if the Council ranger told you to move on and you told him you are too tired or unwell to do that right now, And he still issued you with a fine then I think it should be thrown out of Court as that is where I would be taking it.
Personally I would like to test this out and one day I may do that, Because road safety should over rule the Council laws. It would be impossible for the Council to prove you were fit to drive.
rockylizard said
05:14 PM Jun 8, 2015
Hey Jim wrote:
Hi all,
1.How does a Council Ranger define ( If you carry Percription Medications with you) the difference between( No over night camping) and Pulled up for a rest ( Pit Stop) If you are parked just off the road ( STILL hitched up,& Feeling Unwell) in a rest area displayed by road signage.
2.If a Police officer asks you to move on in a country area no signage, and you inform the officer you are unwell to drive at this time.
Gday...
Let me see if I have some idea of just what you are asking - and just what scenario you are using.
A wayside stop ... sign stating No Overnight Camping ... you pull up and keep the van attached to the vehicle.
still daylight - no problem and you would NOT be moved on, as you are NOT overnight camping;
night time (eg before 7pm) - the scenario states the driver is feeling unwell - and van still attached to vehicle, maybe even cooking a meal.
I would assume driver could be resting in the van, perhaps a meal is being cooked or having a cuppa.
If a By-Laws officer attended, assume a value judgement and depending on how "unwell" the driver
seems, may suggest moving on ... or may suggest a hospital/ambulance contact to get attention. Obviously, he may simply
point out the breaking of the rule but insist the driver move on as soon as the driver is feeling well.
night time (eg after 7pm) - I would suggest the driver is now actually "camping" and should the local By-Laws officer turn up, the driver is now
breaking the law and would need to show definite signs of being so unwell that the driver was unable to drive on.
If the driver IS so unwell, the officer again would probably suggest a hospital/ambulance to contact.
night time (eg occupants now in bed) - the law is definitely now being broken - it is usual practice for By-Laws officer to advise that the driver
vacate the rest area by eg 8am. It would be usual for a fine to be issued.
Despite my rambling scenarios, if I were so unwell that I could not drive I would pull over and make a phone call to get an ambulance to attend. I would not camp in a rest area with signage clearly stating NO OVERNIGHT CAMPING.
Also consider, it is unusual for By-Laws Officers to be out in the night time ... unless vanners have been persistent problem campers at a particular rest area. Therefore, the proposed scenario wouldn't occur - no attendance by By-Law Officer - no problem.
As already stated, it is highly unusual for Police Officers to attend, unless council has asked them to keep an eye on a particular area noted for abuse by vanners - or a By-Laws Officer has requested their attendance due to a vanner failing to follow direction.
Anyway - why expect to sleep overnight at a rest area with NO CAMPING, without penalty, unless it is a genuine emergency if genuinely so unwell. There is no law in stopping at one during daylight hours.
Cheers - and stay well ... and hope the scenario proposed does not occur - John
NeilandRaine said
05:15 PM Jun 8, 2015
It is a good idea to push the envelope. If we all start to question pretty clear laws it wont be long before the police get sick of things and really start to look for any little thing on the caravan that may be just a little bit illegal.
Most people I know plan their trip and are off the road in a legal spot by about 4 pm
brickies said
05:18 PM Jun 8, 2015
There is 2 situations here one stoping because you are fatigued and the other stopping in an unlawful parking zone , Just because you are fatigued you still must obey the rules , Even if you are fatigued I would think you would be able to find somewhere to rest that didn't have a no parking sign even in a city
Bill B said
05:37 PM Jun 8, 2015
Why do people keep trying to push the envelope to justify camping where they shouldn't.
Explorer said
06:02 PM Jun 8, 2015
Bill B wrote:
Why do people keep trying to push the envelope to justify camping where they shouldn't.
Agree 100%.
There is plenty of great free camps if You are prepared to look.
Mike
hako said
06:03 PM Jun 8, 2015
I totally agree with Bill B and rockylizard......it's no wonder grey nomads are getting a bad name for freeloading. Why try to buck the system that was put in place for ALL people...grey nomads are not special and deserve no special treatment.
Good Luck.
Woody n Sue said
07:33 PM Jun 8, 2015
Agree with the last couple of comments also why piss off the law when there is plenty of places to stay legally remember there is no time schedule relax and find a legal spot early and have a froffy or red
Phil C said
08:06 PM Jun 8, 2015
I can see both points of view here. There are right royal a holes as council inspectors and some police, however we must all agree to uphold and obey the full law not just the bits that suit us.
As far as pushing the envelope, I've been doing that most of my life, I'm not sure I would pull the sick or tired scene though.
Cheers
brickies said
09:00 PM Jun 8, 2015
It's great to see such great response to this post and great to hear we are being responsible , I have had no problem finding legal free camps which would be much safer for us than pulling up just anywhere
Hey Jim said
09:09 PM Jun 8, 2015
Hold up everyone stop the bus.
Im not trying to avoid or buck the system. What I'm trying to say, is that come winter. We all know that Tens of thousands of retireies head to the warmer parts of is great land that belongs to all Australians. We Experienced this on our frist ever circuit
of 3 months long service, going anti clock ways.
Newbees getting out their. We headed north up towards Bourke NSW , Charleville QLD, Blackall all the way up to Mt Isa and onto Karumba.
Their were no warnings from Normanton to Karumba that Karumba was TOTALLY FULL The Sporting ovals FULL And told to go back to Normanton. We said NO WAY NOT at 4pm. WE plus another 20 vans /campers parked near the fishing Wharfs for the night and moved on the next day (The council still demanded $20 for two adults, with no showers and two stinking portaloos.) as we were going to Burketown any way. We went there to have a fish for a Burramudi. I was Heart broken all those stories I had read as a kid gone.
Went on to King Ash Bay, via the Savannah Way to Darwin, through Kakadu over to Broome. Allways want to see BROOME. NO VACANTY. END up in the GUN CLUB parking LOT. no stopping in the streets. or fines issued.
Lifes a learning Curve. We learnt a hell of a lot then. We had no schedule took it as it comes idea. We had our own portapoti Gas Camp Shower. And our free camping began. And so now on the fringe of retirement we will free camp well outside of these type towns. Unless we know, were we will be, at any given time. and book ahead. If we camp 50km from a town and asked to move on I WILL bring out my medications. and tell where they can go!
That's seven years back. Holy smoke Now the last of the baby boomers are joining the rank and file We will have to be bunked down by 10.30am at each new camp.
Sorry I did not express what I was trying to say first up.
You see I blame the wine Lambie gave me.
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 09:12:30 PM
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 09:12:58 PM
dogbox said
09:27 PM Jun 8, 2015
has anyone ever defined the difference between stopping for a rest an when it becomes camping
rockylizard said
09:35 PM Jun 8, 2015
dogbox wrote:
has anyone ever defined the difference between stopping for a rest an when it becomes camping
Gday...
I would suggest a dead give-away might be if it is dark and you are in bed you just might be considered to be camping
If it is daylight and the awning and deck chairs and Weber are not out I think you could be considered as only having a rest
cheers - John
greyhoundtom said
09:44 PM Jun 8, 2015
Sorry about that but I tried to post a copy of a email that was received from Maritime Services in regard to rest areas in NSW and a clarification in regard to "camping" but I have been unable to post it and will do so as soon as I work out how .
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Monday 8th of June 2015 09:50:58 PM
greyhoundtom said
09:58 PM Jun 8, 2015
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Monday 8th of June 2015 10:11:28 PM
greyhoundtom said
10:19 PM Jun 8, 2015
The way I read that letter in regard to camping is that camping is MULTIPLE overnight stays, and that a single overnight stay is considered resting and not camping.
It is therefore quite correct to stop and rest overnight at a designated rest stop that is marked "No Camping" because you are resting not camping.
Cheers,
Tom
Hey Jim said
10:30 PM Jun 8, 2015
Thanks Tom,
Now all we have to do is get the a GN member or two a seat/s into Federal Government, to implement this Nation wide and make it law. We have the numbers form a party to make change.
Their's millions of us. + good pay + You will get perks + Government pension for life .......................I can feel a stampede building.
That would make government sit up quick. The Shooters & out doors did it. So why can't we.
Hey Jim
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 10:44:50 PM
KFT said
10:35 PM Jun 8, 2015
greyhoundtom wrote:
The way I read that letter in regard to camping is that camping is MULTIPLE overnight stays, and that a single overnight stay is considered resting and not camping.
It is therefore quite correct to stop and rest overnight at a designated rest stop that is marked "No Camping" because you are resting not camping.
Cheers, Tom
I agree with Tom,
The reply I received from NSWRMS indicated the same thing. Unless it is a problem area(with long staying campers or vandals) you are unlikely to be asked to move on if you are "parked" and "resting" and plan to move on the next day.
Aus-Kiwi said
12:12 AM Jun 9, 2015
I tend to stay away from beach areas inbuilt up areas .. Then go there through the day .. ( motorhome)
I check camps 7 for rec grounds etc...
dogbox said
05:11 AM Jun 9, 2015
not a definitive reply still seems to be up to some council officers discretion as they do the enforcing
sandsmere said
06:37 AM Jun 9, 2015
If you are so tired that you have to stop in a designated no camping area then you are not planning your days very well.
if you are so sick that you cannot drive, get medical assistance.
If you are arguing and disputing council and rangers instructions then you are doing considerable damage to the GN cause and are very likely
to be part of the reason so many campsites are being closed down.
Desert Dweller said
06:38 AM Jun 9, 2015
Illegal camping is illegal camping, it should be punished & those doing it give the rest of us a bad name. The authorities aren't stupid. They are aware of the '' I'm not feeling well & I'm carrying prescription medicine'' excuse to camp illegally.
brickies said
07:50 AM Jun 9, 2015
Anyone finding it hard to find legal camping spot should buy a camps book
greyhoundtom said
08:12 AM Jun 9, 2015
sandsmere wrote:
If you are so tired that you have to stop in a designated no camping area then you are not planning your days very well.
Stopping and resting overnight is not camping! Therefore you are not breaking the No Camping restriction because the definition of camping is staying in a specific location for multiple nights.
if you are so sick that you cannot drive, get medical assistance.
Absolutely
If you are arguing and disputing council and rangers instructions then you are doing considerable damage to the GN cause and are very likely to be part of the reason so many campsites are being closed down.
That is a hell of a long bow to draw making the assumption that arguing the toss with some authorised person who has made an erroneous assumption that you are camping illegally when all you are doing is stopping to rest because you too fatigued to continue on with your journey is going to make the council close down a rest stop when that rest stop has been put in place by a State Government authority, and the only function council officers have is to ensure no one stays for multiple nights.
Rest areas are not camp sites and are duly marked so, but they do allow you to stop and rest overnight legally before continuing your journey.
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Tuesday 9th of June 2015 08:15:48 AM
brickies said
08:27 AM Jun 9, 2015
Lawyers love Bush Lawyers
Hey Jim said
08:32 AM Jun 9, 2015
Hi Desert Dweller,
Sorry you still missing my point. Trying to explain myself.
If I pull up lay down on my bed and fall asleep for a nana nap in a rest area, nothing at all unpacked ready to drive on, when I get up I'm said to be camping by an Ranger. I'm not saying around to go walkabouts and see the town ship. If the sign were defined to read two or four hour limit, Fine. others signs do say 24 hour stopping only. It is a GREY AREA I BELEAVE. Thats what I'm trying to say. Does this make scence.If you are unpacked, (table and chairs out some vans are very small).
I had A 4 x4 Toyota ute with a canopy over the back once. To lay down in the back out came lots of bulky gear.Am I camping or resting. they give me the ticket, and I spent shire rate money dragging them into court. and its all over red rover. THEY LOSE. Because of the WORDING......FULL STOP.
Hi all,
1.How does a Council Ranger define ( If you carry Percription Medications with you) the difference between( No over night camping) and Pulled up for a rest ( Pit Stop) If you are parked just off the road ( STILL hitched up,& Feeling Unwell) in a rest area displayed by road signage.
2.If a Police officer asks you to move on in a country area no signage, and you inform the officer you are unwell to drive at this time.
1. Does the police move you on.
2. Give you a ticket for failing to obey a directive.
3. Or you move on ,And you have a medical event causing Grevious bodly harm to third parties .in a motor accident.
4. Do you have a voice recording dash cam, and inform the officer you are recording the conversation.And will they take the blame??????
5. Free camping for all, after all.??????????????????????
6. Deal with it through a Magistrate. Know your Rights. Don't take a ticket for granted and pay the fine. Free Camping. Or Stopping for a rest.
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 04:13:48 PM
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Tuesday 9th of June 2015 08:42:01 AM
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Tuesday 9th of June 2015 08:43:10 AM
The police aren't generally interested in enforcing by-laws unless there is a good reason (or hes close with the Council/Ranger) for wanting to move you on (locals attacking you or other safety issues). I would be surprised to hear too many accounts from others where police have got actively involved in people stopping at non-designated areas unless there are good reasons (and Im speaking as an ex-cop of 13 years - we only enforced by-laws if there was a "bigger picture" for doing it)
Hi bruce & bev,
I hope I didn't wake you from your nana knap,
Off the topic, go back to tects forum Re internet
Jim
If you/me were unwell or too tired to continue then as long as you pull over where it is safe and not obstructing traffic, I think if the Council ranger told you to move on and you told him you are too tired or unwell to do that right now, And he still issued you with a fine then I think it should be thrown out of Court as that is where I would be taking it.
Personally I would like to test this out and one day I may do that, Because road safety should over rule the Council laws. It would be impossible for the Council to prove you were fit to drive.
Gday...
Let me see if I have some idea of just what you are asking - and just what scenario you are using.
A wayside stop ... sign stating No Overnight Camping ... you pull up and keep the van attached to the vehicle.
still daylight - no problem and you would NOT be moved on, as you are NOT overnight camping;
night time (eg before 7pm) - the scenario states the driver is feeling unwell - and van still attached to vehicle, maybe even cooking a meal.
I would assume driver could be resting in the van, perhaps a meal is being cooked or having a cuppa.
If a By-Laws officer attended, assume a value judgement and depending on how "unwell" the driver
seems, may suggest moving on ... or may suggest a hospital/ambulance contact to get attention. Obviously, he may simply
point out the breaking of the rule but insist the driver move on as soon as the driver is feeling well.
night time (eg after 7pm) - I would suggest the driver is now actually "camping" and should the local By-Laws officer turn up, the driver is now
breaking the law and would need to show definite signs of being so unwell that the driver was unable to drive on.
If the driver IS so unwell, the officer again would probably suggest a hospital/ambulance to contact.
night time (eg occupants now in bed) - the law is definitely now being broken - it is usual practice for By-Laws officer to advise that the driver
vacate the rest area by eg 8am. It would be usual for a fine to be issued.
Despite my rambling scenarios, if I were so unwell that I could not drive I would pull over and make a phone call to get an ambulance to attend. I would not camp in a rest area with signage clearly stating NO OVERNIGHT CAMPING.
Also consider, it is unusual for By-Laws Officers to be out in the night time ... unless vanners have been persistent problem campers at a particular rest area. Therefore, the proposed scenario wouldn't occur - no attendance by By-Law Officer - no problem.
As already stated, it is highly unusual for Police Officers to attend, unless council has asked them to keep an eye on a particular area noted for abuse by vanners - or a By-Laws Officer has requested their attendance due to a vanner failing to follow direction.
Anyway - why expect to sleep overnight at a rest area with NO CAMPING, without penalty, unless it is a genuine emergency if genuinely so unwell. There is no law in stopping at one during daylight hours.
Cheers - and stay well ... and hope the scenario proposed does not occur - John
Most people I know plan their trip and are off the road in a legal spot by about 4 pm
Agree 100%.
There is plenty of great free camps if You are prepared to look.
Mike
Good Luck.
As far as pushing the envelope, I've been doing that most of my life, I'm not sure I would pull the sick or tired scene though.
Cheers
Hold up everyone stop the bus.
Im not trying to avoid or buck the system. What I'm trying to say, is that come winter. We all know that Tens of thousands of retireies head to the warmer parts of is great land that belongs to all Australians. We Experienced this on our frist ever circuit
of 3 months long service, going anti clock ways.
Newbees getting out their. We headed north up towards Bourke NSW , Charleville QLD, Blackall all the way up to Mt Isa and onto Karumba.
Their were no warnings from Normanton to Karumba that Karumba was TOTALLY FULL The Sporting ovals FULL And told to go back to Normanton. We said NO WAY NOT at 4pm. WE plus another 20 vans /campers parked near the fishing Wharfs for the night and moved on the next day (The council still demanded $20 for two adults, with no showers and two stinking portaloos.) as we were going to Burketown any way. We went there to have a fish for a Burramudi. I was Heart broken all those stories I had read as a kid gone.
Went on to King Ash Bay, via the Savannah Way to Darwin, through Kakadu over to Broome. Allways want to see BROOME. NO VACANTY. END up in the GUN CLUB parking LOT. no stopping in the streets. or fines issued.
Lifes a learning Curve. We learnt a hell of a lot then. We had no schedule took it as it comes idea. We had our own portapoti Gas Camp Shower. And our free camping began. And so now on the fringe of retirement we will free camp well outside of these type towns. Unless we know, were we will be, at any given time. and book ahead. If we camp 50km from a town and asked to move on I WILL bring out my medications. and tell where they can go!
That's seven years back. Holy smoke Now the last of the baby boomers are joining the rank and file We will have to be bunked down by 10.30am at each new camp.
Sorry I did not express what I was trying to say first up.
You see I blame the wine Lambie gave me.
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 09:12:30 PM
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 09:12:58 PM
Gday...
I would suggest a dead give-away might be if it is dark and you are in bed you just might be considered to be camping
If it is daylight and the awning and deck chairs and Weber are not out I think you could be considered as only having a rest
cheers - John
Sorry about that but I tried to post a copy of a email that was received from Maritime Services in regard to rest areas in NSW and a clarification in regard to "camping" but I have been unable to post it and will do so as soon as I work out how .
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Monday 8th of June 2015 09:50:58 PM
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Monday 8th of June 2015 10:11:28 PM
It is therefore quite correct to stop and rest overnight at a designated rest stop that is marked "No Camping" because you are resting not camping.
Cheers,
Tom
Thanks Tom,
Now all we have to do is get the a GN member or two a seat/s into Federal Government, to implement this Nation wide and make it law. We have the numbers form a party to make change.
Their's millions of us. + good pay + You will get perks + Government pension for life .......................I can feel a stampede building.
That would make government sit up quick. The Shooters & out doors did it. So why can't we.
Hey Jim
-- Edited by Hey Jim on Monday 8th of June 2015 10:44:50 PM
I agree with Tom,
The reply I received from NSWRMS indicated the same thing. Unless it is a problem area(with long staying campers or vandals) you are unlikely to be asked to move on if you are "parked" and "resting" and plan to move on the next day.
I check camps 7 for rec grounds etc...
If you are so tired that you have to stop in a designated no camping area then you are not planning your days very well.
if you are so sick that you cannot drive, get medical assistance.
If you are arguing and disputing council and rangers instructions then you are doing considerable damage to the GN cause and are very likely
to be part of the reason so many campsites are being closed down.
-- Edited by greyhoundtom on Tuesday 9th of June 2015 08:15:48 AM
Hi Desert Dweller,
Sorry you still missing my point. Trying to explain myself.
If I pull up lay down on my bed and fall asleep for a nana nap in a rest area, nothing at all unpacked ready to drive on, when I get up I'm said to be camping by an Ranger. I'm not saying around to go walkabouts and see the town ship. If the sign were defined to read two or four hour limit, Fine. others signs do say 24 hour stopping only. It is a GREY AREA I BELEAVE. Thats what I'm trying to say. Does this make scence.If you are unpacked, (table and chairs out some vans are very small).
I had A 4 x4 Toyota ute with a canopy over the back once. To lay down in the back out came lots of bulky gear.Am I camping or resting. they give me the ticket, and I spent shire rate money dragging them into court. and its all over red rover. THEY LOSE. Because of the WORDING......FULL STOP.
I have rights.